Alien X 3-A Downgrade

[Firestorm808]

If a character or object were to wrap around a universal space-time singularity about to release and prevent it from expanding, I'm pretty sure that would count as Low 2-C.

 

[DragonLord]

So if “tanking” creation isn’t scaling to durability then why would the shield Alien X cuts through have any universal durability?

 

[Agnaa]

If a character or object were to wrap around a universal space-time singularity about to release and prevent it from expanding, I'm pretty sure that would count as Low 2-C.

Low 2-C requires affecting time, if it prevented time from expanding time would not flow. Is that what's actually shown? Or does it merely stop space from expanding?

 

[Firestorm808]

Low 2-C requires affecting time, if it prevented time from expanding time would not flow. Is that what's actually shown? Or does it merely stop space from expanding?

The Extra-Dimensional field was made to block the released 4-D energy. The creators state that nothing (that they know of) can breach the field.

 

[Agnaa]

Since you didn't answer my question I'm going to assume that time keeps flowing, contradicting the expansion being stopped temporally.

Could you provide those statements you're talking about? Specifically the one saying it was "made to block the released 4-D energy".

 

[Firestorm808]

Since you didn't answer my question I'm going to assume that time keeps flowing, contradicting the expansion being stopped temporally.

Could you provide those statements you're talking about? Specifically the one saying it was "made to block the released 4-D energy".

Blocking the released energy blocks the Space-Time Expansion. Also, you can't just block the space in expanding space-time and have time just go through without space.

 

[Agnaa]

Making dinner rn so I'll check out the quote later. For now I'll say that you can just block space from expanding in space-time. Blocking space from expanding means that the same volume of space continues to exist. It wouldn't be like time would be flowing without space, it would just continue flowing with the same amount of space as existed before.

 

[Firestorm808]

Making dinner rn so I'll check out the quote later. For now I'll say that you can just block space from expanding in space-time. Blocking space from expanding means that the same volume of space continues to exist. It wouldn't be like time would be flowing without space, it would just continue flowing with the same amount of space as existed before.

"I'm going to assume that time keeps flowing, contradicting the expansion being stopped temporally."

The way you phrased your initial statement implied that the time expansion passed through the field, leaving the space expansion behind.

 

[Agnaa]

That quote you posted says nothing about it being 4-D, only about it blocking a release of energy. And this recommended video I saw also very clearly has time passing inside and outside the spaceship. I think I'm failing to understand why this universe creation would be 4-D in the first place.

(As an aside, 4-D energy is nonsense, energy is already defined over time, there's a reason we ditch energy entirely when going into higher tiers; because it makes no sense in that context)

The way you phrased your initial statement implied that the time expansion passed through the field, leaving the space expansion behind.

From your earlier statement which effectively said "you can't have time expanding without space"

Also, you can't just block the space in expanding space-time and have time just go through without space.

You're implicitly saying that there's no space on the other side of the field. Which is pretty nonsensical, you can't talk about what's on the other side if there is no other side due to there being no space past it.

And regardless, time's flow inside the field can just continue on as normal, unimpeded.

Or to summarize:

1. Your video doesn't establish it as "blocking 4-D energy", just blocking energy.
2. A related video of the event actually occurring shows time continuing unimpeded. Even if the creation was 4-D, there doesn't seem to be an indication of time being hindered, which is required for 4-D feats.
3. Weirdly, time seems to already be flowing fine, making 4-D creation suspect to me.
4. Your retort of "Time being unhindered makes no sense, since time cannot continue without space" makes little sense. If there's space on the other side of the field, it can affect that. If there is none, it can just continue ticking inside the field.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Agree with the downgrade FRA

 

[Firestorm808]

The setting takes place in the timeless void before the creation of the universe. The Universal Space-time did not exist yet. To create one, the energy released by the device is 4-D.

Also, why are you saying that "time seems to already be flowing fine" when time didn't exist yet, making time manipulation unusable.

 

[Agnaa]

timeless void before space or time existed

random ******* humans and aliens exist, move, talk, with zero issue and zero explanation

events happen in order, there is time between events, things take time to occur, characters react and get caught off guard

there are different locations, there are boundaries with things on one side and not the other

Welp, I'm out. Please conclude this thread without me.

 

[Rikimarox2]

Leave before you turn insane D:

Anyways, after seeing the new arguments, I still have the same stance, I agree with the downgrade.

 

[DemonKingAkuto]

I hit my toe against a door frame, it hurt. Alien X can't hurt me. In conclusion Alien X<Door level so downgrade

 

[Firestorm808]

Welp, I'm out. Please conclude this thread without me.

Being outside/without time is not a new concept in fiction.

 

[Planck69]

The new points make me agree with the downgrade

 

[Firestorm808]

The new points make me agree with the downgrade

Which points?

 

[Agnaa]

Being outside/without time is not a new concept in fiction.

Of course not. Being outside/without time and space while having two dozen anti-feats indicating that time and space do exist may not be a new concept either, but any standards that accept those as legit are, to me, off-putting yet inarguable; if those anti-feats don't convince you that it's not a timeless void then nothing I say will.

 

[Planck69]

Which points?

Those raised by Agnaa and Kukui.

Anyway, I'll be offline for a little while so don't expect me to answer right away.

 

[Firestorm808]

Of course not. Being outside/without time and space while having two dozen anti-feats indicating that time and space do exist may not be a new concept either, but any standards that accept those as legit are, to me, off-putting yet inarguable; if those anti-feats don't convince you that it's not a timeless void then nothing I say will.

We are told that time hasn't started yet and that Time Manipulation is shown to be unusable.

 

[Agnaa]

A statement and a feat versus two-dozen anti-feats.

If we're told that a type of explosion will destroy a planet, and see a premonition for planet-level threats go off, yet we see that explosion be used on two dozen occasions without ever destroying more than a building, I'd consider that explosion not planet-level.

 

[Arceus0x]

I think the question isn't the universe being created but rather created in your face.

If someone creates a skyscraper in front of you randomly then it won't harm you, but this case seems to rather be the skyscraper appearing and expanding right into your face. Now replace that skyscraper with extremely potent energy with its own mass and you got yourself the feat.

 

[Sus]

i purpose : 11-A because it's a fictional character

 

[DemonKingAkuto]

i purpose : 11-A because it's a fictional character

I agree

 

[Firestorm808]

A statement and a feat versus two-dozen anti-feats.

If we're told that a type of explosion will destroy a planet, and see a premonition for planet-level threats go off, yet we see that explosion be used on two dozen occasions without ever destroying more than a building, I'd consider that explosion not planet-level.

People doing stuff in fictional timeless voids happen all the time. Otherwise, any depiction of a timeless void in fiction would be people standing still.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Can we for the love of the Manly Man-Emperor of Mankind stop derailing?

 

[Sus]

Can we for the love of the Manly Man-Emperor of Mankind stop derailing?

no

 

[Agnaa]

People doing stuff in fictional timeless voids happen all the time. Otherwise, any depiction of a timeless void in fiction would be people standing still.

Since it's derailing, I responded on your wall.

 

[Gohanblanco217]

That doesn't make sense. 3-A is reasonable. 2-C implies timelines and rewinding time isn't the same as creating or destroying a timeline. In the guide posted in the comment above, it even specifies Alien X can destroy/create universe(s) which means, yes more than 1 universe at least, doesn't say at a time or not, but the potential is still clear. As for timelines, no, just time manipulation at most. Low 2-C is overkill and borderline wank.

Time hax =/= 2-C or Low 2-C. If the entire timeline and physical universe (time/space continuum) were simultaneously destroyed at any point, then we could argue that. The implications and statements with current feats are like this: he could recreate the universe if destroyed, he just can't "undo" it if the timeline was wiped out with it. As much as he can do, there's a ceiling the creators intended clearly painted into his powers.

He's not all powerful, just up to universal in strength and influence.

What???? I wasn't talking about time hax I was talking Celestialsapiens Reality warping affecting timelines not that they are changing timelines via time hax lol

A statement and a feat versus two-dozen anti-feats.

If we're told that a type of explosion will destroy a planet, and see a premonition for planet-level threats go off, yet we see that explosion be used on two dozen occasions without ever destroying more than a building, I'd consider that explosion not planet-level.

Moving in tiemless voids is a common Inconsistency in Fiction in the last episode Maltruant travelled to the beginning of time ( a place where time didn't exist yet) heck even Maltruant wasn't able to use his time powers implying that time was in fact gone

 

[Greenshifter]

Oh my god… to clear a few things up the 5D Contumelia thing was essentially a range argument to counter humans not needing protection from the 4D component of the Big Bang according to Eficiente. That doesn’t work if 5D beings are involved since they would be affected by the 4D component and would thus need to create a barrier capable of tanking 4D power.

Ben and Rook explicitly exited the timestream to enter the void where the Contumelia were, Maltruant couldn’t use his time manipulation there cause “time hasn’t begun yet” and it’s implied that Paradox who exists outside of time couldn’t get there before the universe was created. There’s a reason we have timeless void standards, they may not get the aliens any speed but it’d be dishonest to conclude it’s not a timeless void and that time was already flowing because of that. Now Zamasu does have a point that you could argue that time existed but didn’t flow yet since I don’t think anything contradicts it.

Ben thought he was going to die by a creation feat and the Contumelia needed protection from it, so it acts like a bomb would in Ben 10, simple.

 

[Greenshifter]

My counters to the OP from the previous thread:

Zamasu_Chan said:
The universe exists in the space beyond, showing it doesn’t have its own space and shares a space with other universes. The universe is also shown to be a cluster of galaxies.

Eh what? Everything that isn’t outside of alle extensions of the concepts of space and time exists within a space. Like this is just how multiverses are portrayed.

Zamasu_Chan said:
Alien X creates all galaxies and doesn’t change the spatial background.

Ok, we also see a reality warping wave come from him meaning he did more than just that.

Zamasu_Chan said:
Ben admits he was too late to save the universe, while Serena and Bellicus agree it’s too late despite the universe still being in the process of dying. As a bonus when asked if Alien X can stop the destruction Serena and Bellicus don’t answer. So it’s heavily implied that Alien X couldn’t stop it

Yeah AX’s time reverse isn’t as good as Clockwork’s who can reverse time on erased stuff.

Zamasu_Chan said:
The past Mr. Smoothy was never changed so time was never affected. It’s also the same timeline as shown here, all the markings made by Ben in the past appeared in the future.

Ok, so like I said before characters still see the old design in their memories (mostly Rook during the trial thinking about the moment the universe got destroyed), so the exact moment the design changed is unclear. So to use this to say only the “present” got affected isn’t too solid and you could just argue that Alien X inserting himself in the universe at a certain moment is what caused the change in that moment (since he’d be focusing on that moment a bit more or smth).

Zamasu_Chan said:
The Chronosapien Time Bomb destroys Ben, with his failsafe having nothing to stop it. The same failsafe that always tires to find a way to save Ben’s life.

Alien X can’t survive (or probably not even stop) the EE’ing bomb and Atomic-X got taken out which leads to Alien X not being able to be accessed anymore due to acausality type 2.

Zamasu_Chan said:
Ben and Rook exit the prime timeline, showing it’s still intact. This shows that the timeline was never created from scratch.

Eh, what? They are still in the structure that holds the timestream. The Contumelia are beyond the barrier so this doesn’t change or mean anything.

Zamasu_Chan said:
Here it’s stated that a universe can be with a dimension, further supporting “the space beyond” statement by Professor Paradox

A dimension is the structure that holds a universe (which is actually a multiverse in this case since it holds the timestream). I also don’t see how this is relevant.

Zamasu_Chan said:
Here it’s stated that Maltruant is in a time loop and is still affected by it in the beginning of time. As a side note, it’s called the beginning of time and it’s stated that time “hasn’t started yet”, meaning it exists but hasn’t started moving.

Potent time loop (since Paradox can’t even reach before the beginning of time). Isn’t it only called the beginning of time after the Annihilaargh creates the universe? Rook stating “time hasn’t begun yet” doesn’t mean that time did exist at that point.

Zamasu_Chan said:
Here the Big Bang is shown as an explosion, and as stated before, never created an entire timeline, or even created time, but merely started it.

Yeah but that’s not the Annihilaargh that actually creates the universe. The actual Big Bang is shown as a space-time expansion. So Feedback should probably be the only one who loses Low 2-C.

Zamasu_Chan said:
In context, this statement means universe, as shown here here and here. Servantis himself was worried that he was exaggerating, and that Ben “proving him right” was likely the events of Ben remaking the universe.

Servantis is aware of alternate universes as explicitly stated at the end of the episode. So all of existence would obviously be well all of existence…
He was worried he was exaggerating because Ben wasn’t using any of his good aliens, once he upped his game and uses more hax and heavy hitters like Atomix and Alien X, Servantis confirmed that Ben was indeed the threat he made him out to be (back when he stated that he was a threat to and could erase all of existence).

Zamasu_Chan said:
This also isn’t the first time “everything” was used to describe the universe.

Supergeniuses tend to get their shit right contrary to people like Ben or Kevin (or Paradox who dumbs his explanations down for the aforementioned 2).

Now may I remind people that it’s stated about 5 different times that “the entire universe and everything in it” was destroyed, so clearly they are differentiating between the matter and the space-time construct itself.

 

[Greenshifter]

Here’s Zamasu’s counter:

Greenshifter said:
Eh what? Everything that isn’t outside of alle extensions of the concepts of space and time exists within a space. Like this is just how multiverses are portrayed.

Universes exist in voids. It's still shown as nothing but a cluster of galaxies. It's stated that alternate timelines branch off from the prime timeline like a tree, and they're shown to be built like branches when we see the Timestream, which is the multiverse. The universes shown here have nothing branching off of them and are extremely far appart.
Also notice how Paradox separates "universes" and "dimensions" then says there are "many Ben Tennyson's across those dimensions." Those dimensions mean timelines in context because those alternate Bens he's talking about are the ones from the alternate timelines that attacked or defended No Watch Ben. Yet another differentiation of universe and dimension.
Another thing. When Kevin asked "where are we?" Paradox, without hesitation, explained they were in the Space Beyond, but here, when him and NW Ben are outside of time and space, Paradox says he can't answer where they are because it's not a place.

Greenshifter said:
Ok, we also see a reality warping wave come from him meaning he did more than just that.

Yes, we usually see that white glow when Alien X uses his abilities, I don’t see how that changes my point at all when the fact still remains; the spatial background remained the same.

Greenshifter said:
Yeah AX’s time reverse isn’t as good as Clockwork’s who can reverse time on erased stuff.

Time wasn’t destroyed. Even then, that's just one ability. Alien X couldn’t do anything to stop it.

Greenshifter said:
Ok, so like I said before characters still see the old design in their memories (mostly Rook during the trial thinking about the moment the universe got destroyed), so the exact moment the design changed is unclear. So to use this to say only the “present” got affected isn’t too solid and you could just argue that Alien X inserting himself in the universe at a certain moment is what caused the change in that moment (since he’d be focusing on that moment a bit more or smth).
Click to expand...

That was a reused clip of course it's gonna have the same logo. Saying "we don’t know when it was changed" when we were shownright in front of our face is straight up denial. It also wouldn’t make sense for Rook to remember the old Mr. Smoothy logo since he knows what the new one looks like the Rook that we were actually introduced to is dead. This current Rook is a mere copy.

Greenshifter said:
Alien X can’t survive (or probably not even stop) the EE’ing bomb and Atomic-X got taken out which leads to Alien X not being able to be accessed anymore due to acausality type 2.

Atomic X doesn’t have acausality and he's not Alien X. Why would erasing an entirely different being who happens to have Alien X's DNA affect the real Alien X?

Greenshifter said:
Eh, what? They are still in the structure that holds the timestream. The Contumelia are beyond the barrier so this doesn’t change or mean anything.

It means the annihilargh didn’t create the timeline. Explain how you create a timeline that already exists.

Greenshifter said:
A dimension is the structure that holds a universe (which is actually a multiverse in this case since it holds the timestream). I also don’t see how this is relevant.

The timestream isn’t within a dimension. As stated above Paradox considers outside the timestream as not a place.

Greenshifter said:
Potent time loop (since Paradox can’t even reach before the beginning of time).

So you admit time exists to some extent then.

Greenshifter said:
Isn’t it only called the beginning of time after the Annihilaargh creates the universe? Rook stating “time hasn’t begun yet” doesn’t mean that time did exist at that point.

Paradox says Maltruant would travel do the beginning of time, he's talking about pre big bang.

Greenshifter said:
Yeah but that’s not the Annihilaargh that actually creates the universe. The actual Big Bang is shown as a space-time expansion. So Feedback should probably be the only one who loses Low 2-C.

That doesn’t matter because it was going to create a universe anyway. This is the big bang that created the universe yes, but it's still an explosion. Tell me, where do you see the timestream expanding? All I see are a bunch of gas clouds and galaxies; it's a literal expansion of matter.

Greenshifter said:
Servantis is aware of alternate universes as explicitly stated at the end of the episode. So all of existence would obviously be well all of existence…

So is Ben, and yet he still made the statement. "Existence" is also context dependent that require more proof. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Greenshifter said:
He was worried he was exaggerating because Ben wasn’t using any of his good aliens, once he upped his game and uses more hax and heavy hitters like Atomix and Alien X, Servantis confirmed that Ben was indeed the threat he made him out to be (back when he stated that he was a threat to and could erase all of existence).
Click to expand...

And what do you know, the multiverse was never touched.

Greenshifter said:
Supergeniuses tend to get their shit right contrary to people like Ben or Kevin (or Paradox who dumbs his explanations down for the aforementioned 2).

Like I said, statements like that are context dependent and require more evidence.

Greenshifter said:
Now may I remind people that it’s stated about 5 different times that “the entire universe and everything in it” was destroyed, so clearly they are differentiating between the matter and the space-time construct itself.

Yeah, the same universe that's 3-A.

 

[Midtop]

Ben thought he was going to die by a creation feat and the Contumelia needed protection from it, so it acts like a bomb would in Ben 10, simple.

Yea this is the point I proved earlier but nobody except Hop seems to get. You worded it well tho, nice, understanding and concise. I love it! To add scans and stuff:

Ben and Skurd thinking they're about to die from the creation feat from the bomb (Ima call it how it is, it's a ******* bomb)

The Contumelia and everyone on board are in danger of being harmed by the bomb thus needs the field to protect them from the release of energy from the bomb. Protection-To keep safe from harm or injury

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Only read the last few posts but there's some stuff I need to point out so that it doesn't get replicated elsewhere. I would usually ignore this sorta thing, as I don't know anything about Ben 10, but many of the statements made were presented as if they apply in cases outside of Ben 10.

If you tank 20 megatons of tnt you tanked 20 megatons of tnt and that scales due to being able to withstand said force no matter if it's creation or destruction or a punch or a kick or a very strong bee stinging you in the arm.

Exactly, it's says an amount of force, so regardless if said force it through creation or destruction dude.

if you tank a release of energy/force that's text book definition of scaling to your durability according to the sites page.

You never tank creation. Something beginning to exist when it didn't before doesn't release energy.

And creation can literally harm for example when the Big Bang ******* blew up, do you really think the 9.5 x 10**53 Megatons of TNT going off in your face won't harm you because it's creation?

You're not getting harmed by the creation of that energy. You're getting harmed by experiencing the dense thermal energy. Creating a fire does not hurt you, but having your hand in a fire does. For a created thing to harm someone there has to be a specific reason for that created object to inflict harm, and to inflict the amount of harm you claim it will.

My point is that creation does harm you when said creation is creating beyond infinite levels of megatons of tnt all in your face. Creation doesn't inherently harm anyone but it literally can and in this case it's stated it can harm people, so you need to go back to the drawing board with that.

Existing in an empty realm, and then that realm being turned into an infinitely large existing realm does not harm you, so you're not tanking anything.

I said that if a character RELEASES ENERGY when creating something, according to Newton's 3rd Law of motion they should be able to survive the same amount of energy they released in counter force. Just to be blunt don't care if you've never seen it, I don't have to give an example. Debunk what I said.

Newton's 3rd law of motion has no reason to apply to non-physical stuff like creating a building out of nothing. If a character "releases energy when creating something", then that may scale, but only if they would have been enveloped by the energy released, and still, you'd need to figure out how much energy was released and scale them based on that, rather than scaling it to what they created.

EDIT: btw, this doesn't just apply to creation, an AP feat has to be striking strength done by your physical body to scale to durability via Newton's 3rd law. Weapons, abilities, and magic don't count and require additional scaling.

I've proved that creation can harm you dude

You have not.

I proved that the Annihilargh creation was going to harm the people on the Contumelia ship, I proved that already dude. I proved that the barrier is also needed so it doesn't harm anyone

If that is a thing in Ben 10, and sufficient statements to prove that it would have harmed people without extradimensional field protection or whatever, then scaling in that case should be fine.

Anyway, what the **** is the difference between energy used for creation and energy used for destruction, they're both energy just used for different purposes right.

One has 100% of the energy used to harm someone, one has 100% of the energy used to create something, leaving nothing left over to tank.

So then if creating something involves a shit ton of megatons of tnt being released into the world and in your face wouldn't that harm you? Exactly, it literally would dude, and don't even try and say that you can tank even a single megaton of tnt to your face.

If someone creates a bomb that explodes, that hurts me because the bomb released energy. If someone creates a ball of extremely dense matter that expands under its own pressure, that hurts me because of the pressure being released. If someone creates a mountain on top of me, that hurts me because it was gravitationally attracted onto my body. In none of those cases does the harm come from the creation, it comes from destructive things that the created object does later.

But, if someone just created a skyscraper in front of me, that would not hurt me one bit.

For a more poignant demonstration, if I was floating in space, creating a planet 1 meter beneath me would hurt me as much as falling 1 meter would on Earth, you'd be able to hurt me a lot more by creating a pole in my head, or creating a fire enveloping me, despite both of these taking far, far less "creation energy".

Agnaa explained this much better than I could’ve. This is pretty much what I was trying to say about the whole “creation does not harm you point”

 

[Greenshifter]

Does that matter when Ben and the Contumelia are getting harmed by creation though? Pretty sure he conceded to it being fine to scale if it explicitly harms people.

 

[Agnaa]

Ben and Rook explicitly exited the timestream to enter the void where the Contumelia were, Maltruant couldn’t use his time manipulation there cause “time hasn’t begun yet” and it’s implied that Paradox who exists outside of time couldn’t get there before the universe was created. There’s a reason we have timeless void standards, they may not get the aliens any speed but it’d be dishonest to conclude it’s not a timeless void and that time was already flowing because of that. Now Zamasu does have a point that you could argue that time existed but didn’t flow yet since I don’t think anything contradicts it.

fwiw according to Zamasu, that whole series of events "before time began" is literally part of a time loop. So it's not even like all statements from the show are in support of it being a timeless void. There's some statements (and implications) in support, some statements against, and the entirety of demonstrated feats/events against.

 

[Greenshifter]

fwiw according to Zamasu, that whole series of events "before time began" is literally part of a time loop. So it's not even like all statements from the show are in support of it being a timeless void. There's some statements (and implications) in support, some statements against, and the entirety of demonstrated feats/events against.

That time loop would encompass the entirety of the show, probably Paradox included who exists outside of time and different universes with different physics as well. So that time loop has enough feats for it not to be an anti-feat here.

 

[Agnaa]

That time loop would encompass the entirety of the show

Why? That clip only says that Maltruent is stuck in a time loop. Seems weird to assume that literally everything in the series is.

So that time loop has enough feats for it not to be an anti-feat here.

this time loop has enough feats of being above time that it having time isn't an anti-feat for things below it being above time

What if... Those things below it just aren't above time, and are merely in a state where time-related powers are nullified? There cannot be time above something that is above time, similar to how there cannot be a stronger being above a being that is omnipotent; it just means that whatever was "above time" isn't actually above time.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Anyone else find it strange that the ship can “tank” the Big Bang but Crashhopper can handle one of its missiles as well as Rook’s ship breaking through it?

 

[Vietthai96]

Anyone else find it strange that the ship can “tank” the Big Bang but Crashhopper can handle one of its missiles as well as Rook’s ship breaking through it?

so Rook's ship have Low 2-C durability?? sorry i'm not actually well-versed in Ben 10