Ainz Ooal Gown vs Kishin Asura

[The_Causality]

Pretty sure Kishin passive Stomp, his madness scaling is pretty high:

• Normal resistance<<< Shibusen's guys<<<<<Stein<Medusa's madness<<<<<<<Arachnee's madness (which affect all resistent characters in shibusen and arachnophobia)<<Maka pre EoS<Briefly chrona<<<<<<Kishin's passive madness (which affect hundreds of peoples kilometers aways)<<<<<Kishin's active madness (which affect the whole planet)

Ainz's resistance is shit compared to this

 

[Paul_Frank]

Having planetary range mind manip hax does not make it as powerful as world items if certain characters can resist it. Saying planetary range is equal to it's power is like saying vento of the front's divine punishment is as strong as kishin's madness or a world item.

That's exactly how it works here rho

This wiki uses number of people haxed for the rating

 

[Golfgan]

To be more precise, number of people is not the only thing used for rating (scaling also works). But it is indeed a sufficient condition: if Kishin can mindhax the planet then it is planetary.

Either way, XLord of NightmaresX, you need a feat for Ainz resistance. What you mentioned with the "world item"-thing is an anti-feat. If there is clear evidence that he resists litterally anything below world item-level then it'd be fine. But so far you didn't prove this last point. (Though it'll only give him resistance to Kishin's passive hax, not his active one since this one is planetary. But I guess, in this case, it would becomes a decisive victory for Kishin instead of a passive stomp)

Lastly, you brought up that Ainz may resist lvl 100 Aura mindhax because he can cast it. Problem: excluding a few exceptions (e.g.ability going berserk/not controllable), this wiki doesn't assume you resist all the hax you can generate unless, so you need feats of him resisting lvl 100 Aura from someone else. Also what is the potency of this lvl 100 Aura anyway?

 

[Apeironaxim]

Gonna explain something real quick, Ainz is immune to all mindhax in verse, which includes fear, panic, confusion, and insanity. So yes, he would resist those, just probably not Kishin's level of it

 

[YungManzi]

That's exactly how it works here rho

This wiki uses number of people haxed for the rating

I don't agree with it, but that's how it's accepted here, and based on that...I'm voting Kishin.

 

[FDrybob]

I'm voting inconclusive. There are too many factors important to the match that there seem to be no clear answers for.

 

[XLord_of_NightmaresX]

I vote inconclusive as well.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Not sure what factors dont' have answers. Kishin has crushing attacks with his madness telekinesis and fire attacks, both weaknesses of Ainz. He has the AP advantage by a damn big margin. Ainz has nothing close to Madness of Fear levels of resistance, and even if his resistance helps him not get knocked out right away, doing anything will be hard.

And jesus hell, how much do people like playing the paranoid card to say Ainz spams timestop and his stronger hax right away? That's bollocks and unfounded, if it was so easy he wouldn't get killed so commonly by high power or new builds he doesn't know like the novel explicitly said, and if those tactics aren't efficient why would Ainz favor them for what he thinks is a powerful player? It's illogical.

 

[Apeironaxim]

According to Maruyama, having time-stop and instant death counter measures are absolutely required to face Ainz in a fair fight.

Pretty sure this heavily implies Ainz uses Time-Stop when he can

Ainz has also stated he's even beaten, as he's called, "perfect builds" before, which I imagine means min max builds

 

[Apeironaxim]

Also, when Ainz fights Gazef, he's treating it as a regular PvP fight

What does he end up doing as soon as the fight starts?

Time-Stop

He even remarks when he uses it, "I see. Countermeasures against time spells are always essential"

Which again, as he's treating this like a regular PvP match, means he would probably use it just in case

There's also the fact he isn't in YGGDRASIL anymore, so he has no idea who may or may not have Time-Stop resistance so why wouldn't he use it incase it works?

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Yes, a PvP match against a guy he knows perfectly well is below him in power. Just as his curiosity has won over his cautiosness and so called "paranoia" when he found an enemy he couldn't Instant Kill and he recklessly let himself be hit by after Demiurge confirmed it was not someone powerful.

Unlike Gazef though, Kishin is gonna be ******* Ainz up from turn 1. He would be bypassing his resistance to mental stuff as well, why would Ainz treat this guy the same as a low level normal human?

And I am not sure how legitimate that is. Shalltear is not top of the top in builds, she's bottom of the top, and Ainz still barely won abusing having all her information and her not having a clue how to battle properly. Even Ainz himself admits he'd run away like hell if Shalltear used her powers in the way he thought most efficient. Then again, he might have used world items for them.

 

[Apeironaxim]

Shalltear is level 100, and being bottom of the top is still in the top, so yes, she and the other level 100 NPC have Time-Stop resistance

 

[Apeironaxim]

Yes, a PvP match against a guy he knows perfectly well is below him in power. Just as his curiosity has won over his cautiosness and so called "paranoia" when he found an enemy he couldn't Instant Kill and he recklessly let himself be hit by after Demiurge confirmed it was not someone powerful.

Haven't got that far, but if Demi, who is extremely intelligent and most likely has discern enemy, tells you someone isn't powerful, he's probably right

 

[Apeironaxim]

Also the Gazef thing doesn't matter, he's treating it as he would treat a regular PvP match, and hell, Ainz just learned Gazef's sword has the ability to harm him, maybe even kill him

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Except... between the bottom of the top and the top there's still a massive difference. And she still doesn't know how to abuse her skills. So no, the statement still feels shakey.

And yes, all the powerful NPC have it. Even more reason why Ainz would think someone powerful like Kishin may have it.

 

[Apeironaxim]

He even remarks when he uses it, "I see. Countermeasures against time spells are always essential"

There's also the fact he isn't in YGGDRASIL anymore, so he has no idea who may or may not have Time-Stop resistance so why wouldn't he use it incase it works?

 

[Apeironaxim]

Except... between the bottom of the top and the top there's still a massive difference. And she still doesn't know how to abuse her skills. So no, the statement still feels shakey.

Where is this from? Shalltear used her skills recklessly because she thought Ainz wasn't aware of them, and thus her sadistic side came out

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Except, again, he was going against Gazef who he knows isn't comparable to him.

Yes, and again, except nearly everything works by following YGGDRASIL rules in the new world and he has no idea Kishin is different.

 

[Apeironaxim]

And yes, all the powerful NPC have it. Even more reason why Ainz would think someone powerful like Kishin may have it.

All high level players had Instant Death resistance, but he still uses it anyway on the New World people

 

[Apeironaxim]

Except, again, he was going against Gazef who he knows isn't comparable to him.Yes, and again, except nearly everything works by following YGGDRASIL rules in the new world and he has no idea Kishin is different.

Except, again, he's treating it like a regular PvP fight out of respect, and even remarks how Time-Stop measure are always essential when it works, so again, combined with the WoG statement, Ainz would still use Time-Stop incase it works. Also, again, he states his surprise when Gazef's sword can kill him, so he clearly doesn't know everything about Gazef's gear

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

No, the first spell he used, Grasp Heart, has a secondary and powerful stun effect so Ainz likes to test out with it in case the instant kill doesn't go off. And he has learned by now that the level of the New World people is far beneath his in general.

 

[Apeironaxim]

He's used Instant Death more times than that

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Am I stuttering or something or talking in riddles? That's what I meant by their level being below his. They aren't gonna resist it and he likes his death spells, that's why he made a non-optimal build. Grasp Heart is even his favorite spell, why not use them?

Doesn't change the fact they are not very useful against high levels and that's the mentality Ainz brings to battle.

 

[Apeironaxim]

Listen man, Ainz fights Gazef with the mentality of a PvP duel like he would in YGGDRASIL, meaning when he Time-Stops, it's because he would probably try that in character

WoG also supports Ainz would use Time-Stop

So with both canon events and WoG, I'm not sure what the problem is

 

[Apeironaxim]

I'm not saying Ainz wins, but saying he won't use Time-Stop goes against canon and WoG, that's the only reason I'm here

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

No man, what you are telling me is to forget entirely that Ainz is battling someone that he knows is way weaker, while you yourself are saying most people at level 100 resist Time Stop.

Please tell me at what moment I've even broken Canon, if you think Ainz battling Gazef is the same as Ainz battling someone at level 100 just because he said he was gonna treat it like a pvp battle, you are making ideas around incorrect assumptions.

 

[Paul_Frank]

The gazeff thing was more of a mercy kill then a duel

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Not to mention even if we took the PvP duel straight forwardly, of course he'd abuse time stop on a weaker enemy that shouldn't have resistance.

 

[FDrybob]

Since he's in the New World now, Ainz won't assume a high-level enemy has time-stop resistance. When he and the guardians fought that level 70 living tree that would've been a threat to the entire New World, it didn't have resistance to any of their hax that they tried on it. Why wouldn't Ainz take the opportunity to try one of his best hax that can be used instantly? By the way, this is what I meant by "too many factors" with "no clear answers". It seems like nobody can agree on these things.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

No, Ape couldn't agree on those things. I don't understand why he didn't get Mindhax is also graded by numbers in here too, or that World items aren't treated as world level with the possible exception of some. Unless there were other things not agreed on that I missed.

... Why, would he? They determined the tree only had a ton of HP and even one of the Guardians could easily kill it, but Ainz was much more interested in making the Guardians learn teamwork fighting it together because he didn't perceive it as a threat.

 

[DeathNoodles]

I'm not here to vote yet, but I'm going to say this:

It has been discussed, and estabalished, several times by other knowledgable users of Overlord from previous threads that it is in-character for Ainz to use Time Stop even at the beginning of a fight, especially against a completely unknown enemy (which would cause him to be wary by default, thus he wouldn't underestimate them. Heck, even the intelligence section of Ainz's page says that he doesn't underestimate his opponent). We might've only seen him use Time Stop on fodders (such as the Nazarick invaders and Gazef), but even in those times it shows that Ainz is willing to spam it or use it as the beginning of a fight. High level players and NPCs in Overlord has Time Stop resistance by default. Here, Ainz wouldn't even know if his enemy is "high-level" or not (but even that wouldn't matter, as his enemy is not from Overlord, thus shouldn't get the resistances to hax that most high-level Players and NPCs should have), so he likely use Time Stop as a cautionary measure (and once that happens, he would find that his enemy is affected by his Time Stop, and as such he would be willing to spam it to gain an advantage as a result).

It has been established several times by other knowledgeable users of Overlord that Ainz is willing to spam Time Stop or use it in the beginning of a fight. We have no actual reasons for why this should change, so I don't see why this should be any different for this fight.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Each time it was said that he leads with timestop in character it was also shown that there are plenty of times where he didn't

In other words it's never been agreed on really

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

It's also been discussed plenty of times that he paranoids as hell and just draws back to snipe with magic or time stop or open with The Goal of All Life Is Death, despite the fact other knowledgeable members have cropped direct exerpts of the novel showing people love to exaggerate how cautious Ainz is, or how prone he is to use his hax. Again, he goes and lets someone that resisted his death hax hit him after Demiurge confirms for him the person is weak.

And you realize what I am saying here? Kishin can hurt him, Kishin will affect him from turn 1 with Madness of Fear, a mental debuff if translated to Yggdrasil, despite the fact he's an undead with Mental Debuff immunity. And he also doesn't have the slightest clue who he's fighting is not from YGGDRASIL. What, does he suddenly know he's in a Vs battle in an equalized field with an opponent from another dimension? So yes, against an enemy that's a high threat and it's obvious from moment one, and is even doing something Ainz would think you can only pull off with a World Item, it's either a high level player or someone freaking dangerous and he's gonna shift into PvP battle mode. And what he's learned from years of battle is that high levels are commonly immune to time stop, most are even immune to most minor effects because his despair aura could only affect the guardians while he brandished the Staff of AOG, and only Shalltear has a super minmaxed build out of all of them. All I am doing is following logical sense here and I have seen literally nothing to contradict this so far, unless other knowledgeable members can pull something up, which would be nice. And this all doesn't change he's getting Madness of Fear from the first second, so he's gonna be hard pressed to react efficiently at best.

 

[Apeironaxim]

Standard battle assumptions would mean they're in Central Park, so yes, from his perspective he's just been randomly teleported to New York

 

[Apeironaxim]

Also for your "not knowing he's in a Vs battle thing"

They are, in a single instant, transported to the battlefield from their everyday activities, equipped with their equipment, transformed to the character version they battle in and given the correct state of mind. In the same instant the battle starts and they may attack each other. They are assumed to not be surprised or disorientated from the sudden start.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Except... New York doesn't exist in Yggdrasil, nor in his original world, and if it still did, it likely doesn't look similar to his very different world.

What is that supposed to accomplish, exactly? Nothing about that tells me Ainz know he's battling someone not from yggdrasil, or not from the new world, or to make him think this is something different entirely and not rely on years of knowledge to draw comparisons and make judgements.

 

[Apeironaxim]

They are teleported to Central Park per SBA, where he would have no reason to believe anything from New World would be there, where he would encounter this thing that he has never seen before

He's not going to take this lightly

 

[FDrybob]

Ainz only relaxes when he knows the opponent is not a threat. He let that fodder enemy hit him because Demiurge personally built the army the enemy came from (especially since that enemy was a person of interest in that army), and as such, Ainz knew there were no threats. It was obvious that the enemy just had an item or skill that let them resist death manipulation, which is what Ainz gathered. That is completely different from Ainz having to kill some unknown threat, like in this battle.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Except he was already teleported once, from a video game to an actual world with living people that work on those same mechanics of his game and with his character becoming his actual body.

I am not seeing how he thinks this is any different. And I can see you didn't even understand my whole point if you think I doubt Ainz would take this lightly. Him not using time stop and instant kill would be he thinking he's fighting something comparable to a high level player, as those rarely if ever work due to their resistances.

 

[Apeironaxim]

Also, I would assume Demi can use Discern Enemy, which estimates the level of the target, which things below level 60 can't hit Ainz, so how is a confirmed non-threat a point here?