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“Ain’t that a kick in the Marine Suit” (Doomguy vs the Courier)

Pretty sure Courier is only 8-C with like one weapon and will be pasted in a single hit, might wanna try them in 9-A?
 
Okay so Courier will likely open with trying to convince Doomguy to not fight, I think SI rules have been treated differently but he could possibly try to cow DG into submission/make him flee with Terrifying Presence which can be done with just a gesture. Which can work on bloodlusted and psychotic criminals, DG is mute so I doubt he'd get into a long winded conversation though.

Assuming this doesn't happen and the fight begins lets move into that.

Doomguy has a variety of powerups to amp himself, invulnerability is going to be super useful in a gunfight too. Invisibility wouldn't be useful though as Courier can keep track of nightkins who can turn invisible off the top of my head. Skill wise I'd bet on DG here, facing hordes of demons that can oneshot you is very impressive. Courier is no slouch in a fight considering he can clear out entire camps of Legion/NCR/Raider camps all by himself with no issue but DG has fought for much longer times from what I can tell. DG also has higher LS so a grapple will result in a GG also.

However Courier has two things going for him in this fight, being able to use Vats and his luck. Courier's luck allows him to simply have attacks, even melee and point blank gunshots to simply just miss him. Plus when he attacks in Vats he can sometimes summon one of two beings that can one shot super mutant behemoths. It doesn't always happen in vats but if it does then watch out. Vats allows Courier to self perception manip and do things like get the first shot off/disarm DG of his weapons or target his limbs.

All in all I'm going to vote Courier here with mid difficulty, DG's best bet is to just try to bumrush Courier right out the gate and get into melee or close quarters. His amps will make it easier to take the hits and his invulnerability will help protect against Vats attacks, but Courier's luck is stupidly good and will allow the battle to play out in his favour more times than not with the help of Vats
 
Stillwinston said:
Okay so Courier will likely open with trying to convince Doomguy to not fight, I think SI rules have been treated differently but he could possibly try to cow DG into submission/make him flee with Terrifying Presence which can be done with just a gesture. Which can work on bloodlusted and psychotic criminals, DG is mute so I doubt he'd get into a long winded conversation though.

Assuming this doesn't happen and the fight begins lets move into that.

Doomguy has a variety of powerups to amp himself, invulnerability is going to be super useful in a gunfight too. Invisibility wouldn't be useful though as Courier can keep track of nightkins who can turn invisible off the top of my head. Skill wise I'd bet on DG here, facing hordes of demons that can oneshot you is very impressive. Courier is no slouch in a fight considering he can clear out entire camps of Legion/NCR/Raider camps all by himself with no issue but DG has fought for much longer times from what I can tell. DG also has higher LS so a grapple will result in a GG also.

However Courier has two things going for him in this fight, being able to use Vats and his luck. Courier's luck allows him to simply have attacks, even melee and point blank gunshots to simply just miss him. Plus when he attacks in Vats he can sometimes summon one of two beings that can one shot super mutant behemoths. It doesn't always happen in vats but if it does then watch out. Vats allows Courier to self perception manip and do things like get the first shot off/disarm DG of his weapons or target his limbs.

All in all I'm going to vote Courier here with mid difficulty, DG's best bet is to just try to bumrush Courier right out the gate and get into melee or close quarters. His amps will make it easier to take the hits and his invulnerability will help protect against Vats attacks, but Courier's luck is stupidly good and will allow the battle to play out in his favour more times than not with the help of Vats
Click to expand...
How does Doomguy win-? If Courier realizes he is losing he can just look and fear hax him.
 
ShionAH said:
How does Doomguy win-? If Courier realizes he is losing he can just look and fear hax him.
Click to expand...
It'd have to be done at the start of the fight, even then Courier might not use it and instead just try to tell DG to stand down. Which I'm not sure would work or not as DG seems to be entirely mute.
 
“In some conversations, you gain the ability to initiate combat while terrifying a mob of opponents, sending them fleeing away for safety.”— in-game description.
 
Stillwinston said:
“In some conversations, you gain the ability to initiate combat while terrifying a mob of opponents, sending them fleeing away for safety.”— in-game description.
Click to expand...
I am not sure if thats enough proof of him literally being unable to use it after he starts the fight
 
Because Courier would probably default to the mindset of fighting once he's tried to yell and start a conversation? Afaik once conversations fail you usually have to resort to applying gun to the problem in fallout games. Now that I think about it there might be a time Courier talked to someone who was mute in one of the dlcs but won't DG just open by whipping his gun out and already shooting?
 
Stillwinston said:
Because Courier would probably default to the mindset of fighting once he's tried to yell and start a conversation? Afaik once conversations fail you usually have to resort to applying gun to the problem in fallout games.
Click to expand...
If your opponent gets the upperhand why wont Courier try to scare them away? Also "can make heavily armed Brotherhood Of Steel members whimper in fear just by talking to them"
Stillwinston said:
Now that I think about it there might be a time Courier talked to someone who was mute in one of the dlcs but won't DG just open by whipping his gun out and already shooting?
Click to expand...
Not sure if he can convince DG anything. He is basically a blind mad man at this point
 
Well I guess whatever then, you could argue that DG with Berserk wouldn't be cowed into submission but either way I'll assume that SI likely may not work. If Courier can indeed use fear manip mid fight and not at the start of a conversation like its done in gameplay then some of his matches may need revising.

Either way I'm going out on a limb and saying it doesn't occur for the sake of argument, Courier still takes it via Vats and luck. DG's powerups help him eke out a win in a fight though at least.

EDIT: OP what distance are they starting out again?
 
Well guess it could just be considered that Courier wouldn't use it, if I can be provided a scan of him doing such a thing during a fight and not before it then fair enough otherwise I can go with the assumption they wouldn't. Plus there is still RPG protag syndrome with Courier, SI is something they're quite likely to use however its also possible Courier could start blasting. Hence why I'd like to ask OP what distance they're at and see if this might help or not. I still think Courier takes this fight though tbh
 
Stillwinston said:
Well guess it could just be considered that Courier wouldn't use it, if I can be provided a scan of him doing such a thing during a fight and not before it then fair enough otherwise I can go with the assumption they wouldn't. Plus there is still RPG protag syndrome with Courier, SI is something they're quite likely to use however its also possible Courier could start blasting. Hence why I'd like to ask OP what distance they're at and see if this might help or not. I still think Courier takes this fight though tbh
Click to expand...
You can say they wouldnt but you cannot say they are unable to. I just feel like the fear hax makes this a mismatch
 
Sorry for the necro, but I like the idea of this match and I personally need to use the courier more.

First things first, I’m just going to bring up the courier’s most insane feat of social influencing.

“Ulysses is a guy in fallout NV, he is maxed out in all stats, including charisma. One day the courier literally nuked his entire civilization out of existence (whoops), and so Ulysses dedicated the entire rest of his life to hunting down and killing the courier. He hates the courier, he hates everything they stand for, he hates the rest of the world, and desperately wants both you and the world you stand for to end.

So when you meet him he has like 6 plans in place to kill you. Has nukes set up to blow up everything, he has security drones, he has a gun to shoot you himself, and he has a hit squad outside to shoot you if everything else fails.

Despite all of this, the courier can go up to him, without knowing pretty much anything about him (since having prior knowledge is an alternate ending), and can just convince him to completely switch sides. He makes Ulysses’ personality do a complete 540°, he now has a different political opinion, a different view on the world, and is your friend after you talked to him for like 30 seconds.”

I saved that for whenever the courier’s social influencing needs to be brought up.

Just being non social isn’t enough to stop the courier’s social influencing. He’s convinced a crap ton of people that actively wanted him as dead as possible with as much hate as possible. Plus the courier has convinced people like Benny to immediately do it with them (despite him not wanting anything to do with the courier and being actively frightened of him, he immediately attempts to flee to the legion and enact his plan extremely early because he sees your alive), and legate who didn’t care about you at all and was just giving you some last words before death.

Plus, doom guy doesn’t actually resist fear manipulation and the courier can scare a group of people that had literally every advantage over him (including being able to instantly kill him) to flee and give up.

Finally in a straight fight (ignoring that I find it extremely unlikely to happen since the courier can use frightening presence with a smile), vats is way to op. The courier can also sneak past people in broad daylight and had multiple tools to make it even harder to be detected, so doom guy both can’t do anything for half the fight (vats) and doesn’t know where the courier even is most the fight. If he gets shot with a laser weapon he likely dies because they scale to flash vaporizing titanium and the plasma rifle absolutely instantly kills them because it turns people in molecular goop (the doom guy doesn’t resist matter manipulation nor deconstruction). With the courier’s luck his chances of hitting are cartoonishly high while the doom guy will often fail to do anything. The courier is so lucky he can yelp a random word at a security system and it just gave up. Doom guy is absolutely going to miss often.

I think the courier wins extremely easily but it isn’t a stomp since the doom guy can easily beat the courier if he ever gets to just straight fight him. The courier just has a crap ton of ways to keep doom guy from being able to actually properly fight.
 
Last edited:
Keeweed said:
Sorry for the necro, but I like the idea of this match and I personally need to use the courier more.

First things first, I’m just going to bring up the courier’s most insane feat of social influencing.

“Ulysses is a guy in fallout NV, he is maxed out in all stats, including charisma. One day the courier literally nuked his entire civilization out of existence (whoops), and so Ulysses dedicated the entire rest of his life to hunting down and killing the courier. He hates the courier, he hates everything they stand for, he hates the rest of the world, and desperately wants both you and the world you stand for to end.

So when you meet him he has like 6 plans in place to kill you. Has nukes set up to blow up everything, he has security drones, he has a gun to shoot you himself, and he has a hit squad outside to shoot you if everything else fails.

Despite all of this, the courier can go up to him, without knowing pretty much anything about him (since having prior knowledge is an alternate ending), and can just convince him to completely switch sides. He makes Ulysses’ personality do a complete 540°, he now has a different political opinion, a different view on the world, and is your friend after you talked to him for like 30 seconds.”

I saved that for whenever the courier’s social influencing needs to be brought up.

Just being non social isn’t enough to stop the courier’s social influencing. He’s convinced a crap ton of people that actively wanted him as dead as possible with as much hate as possible. Plus the courier has convinced people like Benny to immediately do it with them (despite him not wanting anything to do with the courier and being actively frightened of him, he immediately attempts to flee to the legion and enact his plan extremely early because he sees your alive), and legate who didn’t care about you at all and was just giving you some last words before death.

Plus, doom guy doesn’t actually resist fear manipulation and the courier can scare a group of people that had literally every advantage over him (including being able to instantly kill him) to flee and give up.

Finally in a straight fight (ignoring that I find it extremely unlikely to happen since the courier can use frightening presence with a smile), vats is way to op. The courier can also sneak past people in broad daylight and had multiple tools to make it even harder to be detected, so doom guy both can’t do anything for half the fight (vats) and doesn’t know where the courier even is most the fight. If he gets shot with a laser weapon he likely dies because they scale to flash vaporizing titanium and the plasma rifle absolutely instantly kills them because it turns people in molecular goop (the doom guy doesn’t resist matter manipulation nor deconstruction). With the courier’s luck his chances of hitting are cartoonishly high while the doom guy will often fail to do anything. The courier is so lucky he can yelp a random word at a security system and it just gave up. Doom guy is absolutely going to miss often.

I think the courier wins extremely easily but it isn’t a stomp since the doom guy can easily beat the courier if he ever gets to just straight fight him. The courier just has a crap ton of ways to keep doom guy from being able to actually properly fight.
Click to expand...
Doomguy has passive fate hax and extremely strong AD

I dont know how the fight will wprk though
 
I’m pretty sure we only count his AD as being extremely strong in his last two keys. It took him decades to become 8-C at first. Plus, social influencing or scaring the Doom guy way doesn’t get in the way of his fate and those are the courier’s opening moves since NV is all about talking with people first (that’s well over half the game).
 
ShionAH said:
Also Doomslayer also has social influencing now
Click to expand...
It’s not on the profile (or is in a different key) and I highly doubt it compares to the courier’s when doom guy barely ever speaks. I think that would come from scaring demons, but that was in later keys, demons were never stated to be scared in the old games as far as I remember.

Edit: Just checked, that’s his 8-C key. His 9-A key doesn’t have any social influencing feats.
 
Aah this is classic doomguy right

So what exactly makes this fair? Courier can instantly win with a thought or by simply speaking-
 
The fact that doom guy can easily beat the crap out of the courier if he actually starts to fight, especially since fate makes it that if the courier tries to go for killing moves they don’t work. The courier being so based around SI is the only reason he actually wins. Also, it isn’t a thought, but it is extremely simple actions when it comes to frightening presence.
 
Keeweed said:
The fact that doom guy can easily beat the crap out of the courier if he actually starts to fight, especially since fate makes it that if the courier tries to go for killing moves they don’t work. The courier being so based around SI is the only reason he actually wins.
Click to expand...
From what I understand its one of his starting moves, even if he doesnt start and they fight Courier mid-fight can still realize he is losing and just simply talk.
 
Yeah, but that isn’t a stomp. Unless we got less strict on what counts as a stomp over the years, I was repeatedly told the opponent needs to have practically no way to win for it to be a stomp. The doom guy can win, he could actually win really easily in specific circumstances. It’s just super hard for him to win because the courier has a ton of ways to have everything start going his way.
 
Keeweed said:
Yeah, but that isn’t a stomp. Unless we got less strict on what counts as a stomp over the years, I was repeatedly told the opponent needs to have practically no way to win for it to be a stomp. The doom guy can win, he could actually win really easily in specific circumstances. It’s just super hard for him to win because the courier has a ton of ways to have everything start going his way.
Click to expand...
The only way Doomguy wins if Courier doesnt speak in the entire fight and also doesnt use fear manipulation.

Unless I am mistaken courier is not a dumbass or anything and is quite smart, so its basically OOC for Courier to lose this fight…
 
I mean, I’ve seen many fights like that be accepted. It’s just a character using one of their win options to win. It’s a strong win option but it’s like two people with death manipulation fighting each other. They could both win but the loser does get absolutely wrecked.

I am personally pretty fine with being lenient on what counts as a stomp. I’ll wait and see what other people think. I can see arguments both ways.
 
I’m not sure if I officially voted, so until it properly decided to be a stomp or not, I’ll vote the courier. It’s in a gray area whether it’s a stomp or not, but I think I’m a bit lenient with it. The doom guy has ways to beat the courier, and if the courier does anything other than social influence fate literally says no. I don’t think that’s a stomp, but just a really unfortunate set of circumstances for doom guy (as in, it would normally be a stomp, but the doom guy has abilities that slightly push it to not being one).

Also, I know some people are pedantic on whether social influencing as a power even works in versus threads. Staff despise it but most users are fine with it. Doesn’t matter here because the courier has fear manipulation (yes I’ve had this conversation with many staff before, they constantly get annoyed at the SI, I point to the courier’s fear manipulation and they agree with that and go on their way)
 
Keeweed said:
The doom guy has ways to beat the courier, and if the courier does anything other than social influence fate literally says no. I don’t think that’s a stomp, but just a really unfortunate set of circumstances for doom guy (as in, it would normally be a stomp, but the doom guy has abilities that slightly push it to not being one).
Click to expand...
Courier also has luck. Like come on guys how is this in any kind fair to DG? Anyways I am unfollowing and hope you people understand my view.
 
I perfectly understand it, and I do think it’s a bit complex. Overall I just think the Doom guy has the specific powers and scenarios he could win that keep it from being a stomp. The courier’s fear or si is a hard stop for the doom guy, but if he does anything else he is unironically fated to lose (in a roundabout way). I think it’s pretty hard to say it’s a stomp when every other scenario is equally as big as a hard stop to the courier.
 
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