Adventure Time: Primordial Monsters update

[Overlord_Darkness]

Hi. Here I'll try to explain why Primordial Monsters should have more powerfull abilities due to their origin.

As Lich says, Primordial Monsters existed before the nothingness that predates exsitence. This is actually not Resistence to Void Manip, rather Primordial Monsters have:
1) Nonexistent Physiology (Nature Type 2, All Aspects: Primordial Monsters exists in a state different from existence and nonexistence being in the all-encompassing Void. The all-encompassing Void is the place that predates existence and nonexsitence);
2) Beyond-Dimensional Existence (Type 1: the all-encompassing Void is a place that predates time and space along with the rest of existence. However, Primordial Monsters are able to enter existence and their bodies are affected by the laws of physics);
3) Immortality (Type 5: Primordial Monsters existed long before the concepts of life and death as well as existence itself).

This CRT should not affect Tier, but this abilities seems really fine to me.

AFFECTED PROFILES: Orgalorg, Coconteppi (I will create his prof); POSSIBLE Lich, Hunson Abadeer

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

Another detail that I would also like to highlight here is the size of the Primordial Monsters. In the canonical series-the continuation of Adventure Time, there is a series named "Wizard City".


This egg was created with the help of the powers of the Coconteppi - the second known for sure Primordial Monster that was revealed in the Adventure Time series.

As we can hear, this egg claims that it "go too large for the souffle called space-time" and calls upon Coconteppi.
Here's the point: Primordial Mosters's true essences continue to exist in the Void even if their body's can be dead or located within the existence. That's why their "true forms" within the Void should have Large Size (Type 10) because space-time within Adventure Time universe refers to a whole multiverse that have infinite amount of space-time continuums and this guys exists completely beyond it. I think this should be simple. This is also supported by the fact that despite the dead body, Coconteppi is able to reincarnate if one of the living entities drinks his body's blood thereby transferring its essence.

 

[Galvino]

I agree with OP but is there definitive proof that the concepts of space and time didn't already exist but just that space and time itself didn't exist yet? Like I agree with the monsters existing before space and time but how do we know the Lich and Hunson are definitely talking their concepts? Like what if time, for example, didn't exist yet but the concept of time did is basically what I'm asking.

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

I agree with OP but is there definitive proof that the concepts of space and time didn't already exist but just that space and time itself didn't exist yet? Like I agree with the monsters existing before space and time but how do we know the Lich and Hunson are definitely talking their concepts? Like what if time, for example, didn't exist yet but the concept of time did is basically what I'm asking.

All that we know about that: before anything there was nothing. Actual nothing, just emptiness. That should also affect concepts since, well, it was literally nonexistence. Like, we know that GOLB is the manifestation of concept of chaos and disorder. He didn't existed in the Primordial Void. Idk about Hunson (the book maybe non-canon at all as I saw on wiki), but Lich talks about universe as whole. Also Lich can be not a Primordial Monster, 'cause we know that he was a Catalyst Comet.

 

[Galvino]

Interesting, I assumed GOLB and Lich would count as primordial monsters, I see. Everything seems to make sense to me as far as I know, could you however put in the OP which profiles this would be applied to (assuming this gets accepted by a mod)? I think Tempest is usually the one that handles AT.

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

GOLB

GOLB is not Primordial, that's for sure. He's abstract entity. Lich is questionable. He's well aware about monsters and shares same ideas but he was confirmed to be the Catalyst Comet and he calls himself as GOLB's helper so I don't think that he's a Primordial one. And I added profiles that would be affected by CRT. Also, could you pls call Tempest to this CRT?

 

[Galvino]

I left a message on his wall

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

disagree

existing before nothingness is still existing. especially when the primordials have shown no special physiology after the universe was created.

for the other two, you will need to show that primordials exist before concepts. And even then still iffy about 2.

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

existing before nothingness is still existing. especially when the primordials have shown no special physiology after the universe was created.

Everything depends on the context. You can think that monsters existed, then they disappeared (which led to nonexistence), and then existence appeared. But the show has a completely different context. The show states and very strongly implies that the Primordial Monsters are something that transcends the concepts of nonexistence and existence paradoxically "existing" even before the appearance of these two states, which is great example of NEP Nature Type 2:

Idealistic Nonexistence: The character doesn't exist in a sense further beyond conventional nonexistence. In terms of binary, this would be something that is neither 1 nor 0, where 1 is existence and 0 is nonexistence.

especially when the primordials have shown no special physiology after the universe was created.

It doesn't change what they showed in the "Gold Stars" episode.

for the other two, you will need to show that primordials exist before concepts

Again, an example of GOLB. He embodies the concept of chaos and disorder and didn't exist in the Primordial Void. From this it is concluded that in the Primordial Void (which precedes existence, which includes concepts by definition, and even precedes nonexistence) there are no concepts.

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

for the other two, you will need to show that primordials exist before concepts. And even then still iffy about 2.

Moreover, let's see on the Dead Worlds. Coconteppi is considered to be dead (his body is dead e.t.c.), but it doesn't presence in any of the Dead Worlds that was shown in Distant Lands "Together Again" episode. And even Lich that controlled New Death in same episode never mentioned that Primordials are able to truly die.

Also previous CRT stated that Primordials existed before the concept of aging and that was accepted.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

The show states and very strongly implies that the Primordial Monsters are something that transcends the concepts of nonexistence and existence paradoxically "existing" even before the appearance of these two states, which is great example

Show the evidence of this to support the ability then.

Moreover, let's see on the Dead Worlds. Coconteppi is considered to be dead (his body is dead e.t.c.), but it doesn't presence in any of the Dead Worlds that was shown in Distant Lands "Together Again" episode. And even Lich that controlled New Death in same episode never mentioned that Primordials are able to truly die.

I support immortality with this evidence.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Disagree with it being all aspects of NEP


You first need to prove Information Type 2 exist within the verse
and you need whatever extra aspect type 5 is and elaborate it
Concept, Mind, and Spirit might make sense knowing the verse.
but I also have contention regarding Nature Type 2
As Stated in Nature Type 2. They must have some low degree of Transduality
And we know Transduality must be unbound or transcends the very binary of it.
What proof do we have that The Monsters or Primordial's predating Existence and nonexistence also equates to them being unbound by them.
Specially when for example Orgalargs now follows the systems of reality like form size and gravity that Orgalorg became a small penguin in the Land of ooo

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

Show the evidence of this to support the ability then.

See in op and second post.

Concept, Mind, and Spirit might make sense knowing the verse.
but I also have contention regarding Nature Type 2
As Stated in Nature Type 2. They must have some low degree of Transduality
And we know Transduality must be unbound or transcends the very binary of it.
What proof do we have that The Monsters or Primordial's predating Existence and nonexistence also equates to them being unbound by them.
Specially when for example Orgalargs now follows the systems of reality like form size and gravity that Orgalorg became a small penguin in the Land of ooo

I think that Limited NEP (Type 2) should be fine there. That's doesn't reject their feats and goes with Orgalorg's case

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

I think that Limited NEP (Type 2) should be fine there. That's doesn't reject their feats and goes with Orgalorg's case

i wouldn't mind agreeing to this yes for limited
as for Orgalorg's case how would you explain it then

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

as for Orgalorg's case how would you explain it then

Limited Nonexistent Physiology (Nature Type 2, All Aspects: Primordial Monsters exists in a state different from existence and nonexistence being in the all-encompassing Void. The all-encompassing Void is the place that predates existence and nonexsitence. However, some of them shows affection of their forms from some laws of reality);

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

still against all aspect as Adventure time hasn't been shown to have IE Type 2 within their verse

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

still against all aspect as Adventure time hasn't been shown to have IE Type 2 within their verse

This should scale from nonexistence. Since Primordials existed before all concepts that exists in the Verse, they also should be nonexistent to IE Type 2. Or we can just exclude it if this truly was never shown.

 

[KingTempest]

Interesting, I assumed GOLB and Lich would count as primordial monsters, I see. Everything seems to make sense to me as far as I know, could you however put in the OP which profiles this would be applied to (assuming this gets accepted by a mod)? I think Tempest is usually the one that handles AT.

GOLB, Lich, Orgalorg, Conconteppi, Hudson Abadeer, etc.

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

GOLB, Lich, Orgalorg, Conconteppi, Hudson Abadeer, etc.

Wait. GOLB is Primordial one???

 

[KingTempest]

Wait. GOLB is Primordial one???

Nevermind, he's not

I'm thinking of something else

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

I'm thinking of something else

Okay then. What do you think about this CRT and abilities that was discussed above?

 

[KingTempest]

POSSIBLE Lich

The Lich predates the Big Bang, which means he predates the universe, which means he lived in a time prior to the universe's age, which means he existed with the Primordial Monsters
He's certainly getting it

This is actually not Resistence to Void Manip,

I'm not an expert on things of the nature below. Nonexistent physiology, beyond dimensional existence, etc, but it's definitely resistance to void manip

Our wiki makes it to where even making contact with a pure true void turns you into it. These guys lived in it. They'd get it

rather Primordial Monsters have:
1) Nonexistent Physiology (Nature Type 2, All Aspects: Primordial Monsters exists in a state different from existence and nonexistence being in the all-encompassing Void. The all-encompassing Void is the place that predates existence and nonexsitence)

Not a fan of this.
They didn't exist before existence, or at least from what we know. They just existed before the universe they know and love.

2) Beyond-Dimensional Existence (Type 1: the all-encompassing Void is a place that predates time and space along with the rest of existence. However, Primordial Monsters are able to enter existence and their bodies are affected by the laws of physics);

Not a fan of this either. Existing prior to time, space, and literally everything else such as dimensions and such is a stretch in my opinion from what we do know about these guys.

3) Immortality (Type 5: Primordial Monsters existed long before the concepts of life and death as well as existence itself).

This is fine.

AFFECTED PROFILES: Orgalorg, Coconteppi (I will create his prof); POSSIBLE Lich, Hunson Abadeer

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

The Lich predates the Big Bang, which means he predates the universe, which means he lived in a time prior to the universe's age, which means he existed with the Primordial Monsters
He's certainly getting it

Hm. Good point.

They didn't exist before existence, or at least from what we know. They just existed before the universe they know and love.

I think that NEP should be fine here. Existence is really huge term. I proceeded from the fact that since they existed not just before the universe, but even before nothingness that precedes the multiverse, then, consequently, before existence too (based on the words of the Lich).

Existing prior to time, space, and literally everything else such as dimensions and such is a stretch in my opinion from what we do know about these guys.

As Lich said (and we assume him to be the Primordial one. And really smart one imo) they should have it. Also Coconteppi should be larger then The Cosmic Imagination that also should give them BDE type 1 at least.

EDIT: I have nothing against resistance to void manip, but this should not describe their nature imo

 

[KingTempest]

Hm. Good point.

Yee I wouldn't be a fan of the dude explaining his origins as a creature of the void... not getting the perks of the creatures of the void.

I think that NEP should be fine here. Existence is really huge term. I proceeded from the fact that since they existed not just before the universe, but even before nothingness that precedes the multiverse, then, consequently, before existence too (based on the words of the Lich).

Ok, I forgot about that.

Before there was time, before there was anything, there was nothing. And before there was nothing, there were monsters.

So they didn't just live in the void, they lived prior to the void. Oh shit.
But my knowledge on such standards is limited.
Is existing before existing really NEP? NEP is like having paradoxical parts of yourself, or to flat out lack existing parts. Not just existing prior, but to not exist

As Lich said (and we assume him to be the Primordial one. And really smart one imo) they should have it.

He's both primordial and intelligent, but it's just how confusing the whole concept of existing is

Also Coconteppi should be larger then The Cosmic Imagination that also should give them BDE type 1 at least.

We can see both Coconteppi and Orgalorg in that same picture, same Orgalorg who can get his size scaled from the cast.
Coconteppi isn't really that big.

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

Is existing before existing really NEP? NEP is like having paradoxical parts of yourself, or to flat out lack existing parts. Not just existing prior, but to not exist

Yea, here it is.

1. Idealistic Nonexistence: The character doesn't exist in a sense further beyond conventional nonexistence. In terms of binary, this would be something that is neither 1 nor 0, where 1 is existence and 0 is nonexistence. Characters of this type often have some low degree of Transduality due to their lack of binary existence. Characters of this type have to behave at least as nonexistent as those with Material Nonexistence, but might display even further showings such as preceding or opposing existence.

 

[KingTempest]

Nevermind then. That works

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

We can see both Coconteppi and Orgalorg in that same picture, same Orgalorg who can get his size scaled from the cast.
Coconteppi isn't really that big

Therefore, I assumed that their essences are separate from those forms that we see in the series. If even an egg created with the help of Coconteppi's powers is so huge that it surpasses the multiverse, then the Primordial Monsters should be all the more so. But we can ignore this part 'cause THIS thing is really confusing.

 

[Georredannea15]

So they didn't just live in the void, they lived prior to the void. Oh shit.
But my knowledge on such standards is limited.
Is existing before existing really NEP? NEP is like having paradoxical parts of yourself, or to flat out lack existing parts. Not just existing prior, but to not exist

No, absolutely not. At best, it grants Type 4 Acausality. Existing before void, nothingness or existence does not mean that you are a nothingness or that you lack of dual states of being(existence and non-existence.)

Obviously there are many examples of this in many verses, but I don't want to go off the rails.

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

No, absolutely not. At best, it grants Type 4 Acausality. Existing before void, nothingness or existence does not mean that you are a nothingness or that you lack of dual states of being(existence and non-existence.)

But definition on the VSB tells that preceding existence can be considered as NEP.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

This should scale from nonexistence. Since Primordials existed before all concepts that exists in the Verse, they also should be nonexistent to IE Type 2. Or we can just exclude it if this truly was never shown.

still presumptuous
we cannot assume a verse has IE type 2 without it being confirmed and a verse can exist without one as well

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

we cannot assume a verse has IE type 2 without it being confirmed and a verse can exist without one as well

Agreed here.

 

[Georredannea15]

But definition on the VSB tells that preceding existence can be considered as NEP.

Ehhhh... no.
It doesn't mean anything like that. What Wiki says is not that you have to exist before it, that you have to lack it.

Just because you exist before something does not mean that you lack it. And even if the NEP flies, I doubt that it will be Type 2.

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

Just because you exist before something does not mean that you lack it. And even if the NEP flies, I doubt that it will be Type 2.

I still think that NEP is good here. And that's why I assumed that this should be Limited NEP Type 2

 

[Georredannea15]

I still think that NEP is good here. And that's why I assumed that this should be Limited NEP Type 2

I respect your opinion man. But I don't think there's a Type 2 here. Seems to be a Type 1 "at best".

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

I respect your opinion man. But I don't think there's a Type 2 here. Seems to be a Type 1 "at best".

Type 1 could be if Primordials existed in the nothingness, but since they are in state that differs from regular existence\multiverse and nothingness this sounds exactly as description of Type 2 claims. Just a limited one imo (as Orgalorg shows for example)

EDIT: Hunson Abadeer, for example, existed in the "all-encompassing Night of Nothingness" and that sounds like Type 1.

 

[Vietthai96]

1) Nonexistent Physiology (Nature Type 2, All Aspects: Primordial Monsters exists in a state different from existence and nonexistence being in the all-encompassing Void. The all-encompassing Void is the place that predates existence and nonexsitence);

ehh, this is.............weird, the statement is: before there was time, before there was anything, there was nothing, before nothing......
It........................doesn't mean anything up to the level of..............existence and nonexistence. At best you could get NEP Nature Type 1 from this, since NEP Nature 2 require a low degree of duality between existence and nonexistence, which clearly the statement isn't established. About Aspect since idk about the verse i will not comment

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

since NEP Nature 2 require a low degree of duality between existence and nonexistence, which clearly the statement isn't established. About Aspect since idk about the verse i will not comment

Actually, it doesn't require but often such characters have it. Primordials will not.

Characters of this type often have some low degree of Transduality due to their lack of binary existence.

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

At best you could get NEP Nature Type 1

EDIT: Hunson Abadeer, for example, existed in the "all-encompassing Night of Nothingness" and that sounds like Type 1.

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

Actually, it doesn't require but often such characters have it. Primordials will not.

Hunson Abadeer, for example, existed in the "all-encompassing Night of Nothingness" and that sounds like Type 1.

Considering this what do you think?

 

[Georredannea15]

Type 1 could be if Primordials existed in the nothingness, but since they are in state that differs from regular existence\multiverse and nothingness this sounds exactly as description of Type 2 claims. Just a limited one imo (as Orgalorg shows for example)

EDIT: Hunson Abadeer, for example, existed in the "all-encompassing Night of Nothingness" and that sounds like Type 1.

Existing before void, nothingness or existence does not mean that you are a nothingness or that you lack of dual states of being(existence and non-existence.)