Adding a Dragon Ball Super explanation page to the wiki

[Orange]

zamasu's blog is incomplete. Also that blog is saying that U7 is 2-C which the wiki doesn't accept. So... what's up with that?

We can use this opportunity as a way to revise the cosomlgy of non canon and canon db

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

We can use this opportunity as a way to revise the cosomlgy of non canon and canon db

I'm 99% sure that is not going to be accepted, there's a goddamn discussion rule prohibiting that.

 

[Bernkastelll]

I'm 99% sure that is not going to be accepted, there's a goddamn discussion rule prohibiting that.

We can make a cosmology blog with enough evidences showing that the rule is not right, the same happend to Bleach, it had a rule against Low 2-C cosmology, but here we are with a Low 2-C cosmology

 

[Spinoirr]

Actually makeing people agree about 2-C dragon ball

Impossible

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Well if you guys are on board then let's ask zamasu to complete the blog then we can CRT it. Or we can make a blog about the current cosmology, finish this CRT about making a explanation blog, then make a new blog for 2-C u7 and then CRT it.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

wrong thread

Well damn. I apologize for what I said then

 

[Bernkastelll]

Doesnt there have a statement that said that Anime DBZ and Manga DB both were canon to each other?

 

[Orange]

For canon? Maybe. For non canon? The cosmology is a messs, non canon treats macrocosms slightly differently. Plus you need new argument

I'm 99% sure that is not going to be accepted, there's a goddamn discussion rule prohibiting that.

Doesnt there have a statement that said that Anime DBZ and Manga DB both were canon to each other?

Akira states "Db is the anime and manga!" So take it hoe you will

 

[Dagoth_OwO]

We can use this opportunity as a way to revise the cosomlgy of non canon and canon db

Especially when we now have "new" proof for the macrocosm (afterlife for example)

 

[Orange]

We have multiple peices of evidence that the living realm and after life are space times, plus there are some other stuff etc.... so yeah. Making a blog/thread to revise the non canon cosmology Is a vital part

Especially when we have "new" proof for the macrocosm (afterlife for example)

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

I'm pretty sure everyone agrees with 2-c uni 7, the only thing thats stopping it from being taken into consideration its the discussion rule.

 

[God900]

I'm pretty sure everyone agrees with 2-c uni 7, the only thing thats stopping it from being taken into consideration its the discussion rule.

Actually, No....., many staff members and other users disagree with it...

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

I'm pretty sure everyone agrees with 2-c uni 7, the only thing thats stopping it from being taken into consideration its the discussion rule.

If that was true then a discussion rule wouldn't exist.

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

Actually, No....., many staff members and other users disagree with it...

I was presupposing that the staff/people behind the making of the discussion rule were the only ones, but I didn't know that other users agreed with that, thats my bad.

 

[jjvvb]

then make a revision lol

I would be more than willing to but it will be "refuted" completely disregarding all of my arguments and their rebuttal will be "it's been discussed before"

Shortly after, a moderator will come in and say "this has been discussed before, thread closed" and my revisions will be completely disregarding and disrespected. If that's how my efforts will he treated, I rather not bother trying to make a revision on the cosmology on Dragonball generally.

 

[sanicspood]

I would be more than willing to but it will be "refuted" completely disregarding all of my arguments and their rebuttal will be "it's been discussed before"

Shortly after, a moderator will come in and say "this has been discussed before, thread closed" and my revisions will be completely disregarding and disrespected. If that's how my efforts will he treated, I rather not bother trying to make a revision on the cosmology on Dragonball generally.

Hm, fair point

 

[jjvvb]

Hm, fair point

Not to mention there's a literal rule saying "DON'T CHANGE DRAGONBALL COSMOLOGY BECAUSE WE'VE HEARD YOUR ARGUMENTS" like cmon its not even fair at this point

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Can someone link that cosmology blog please? Thank you!

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

I 9000% agree with this. Time and time again I e wanted to have a discussions not a CRT just to clear things up. I can’t even do that without people tearing at each other like rabid dogs (on each opposing side btw).

It always goes like this: OP makes thread. Says be peaceful. People agree/disagree. People fight. Staff closes thread. And if some new guy, who’s ignorant to the past discussions, makes a thread questioning it, he’ll get the same “we’ve discussed this before” treatment.

I agree. That quote makes it sounds like the ROSAT is low 2-C and U7 2-C when we don’t treat it that way. Kep made the note so blame him.

I did that a while ago, back when low 1-C was in the air. However, a few days ago I edited the blog, making it a little less cluttered and more simplified. If anyone’s going to read, then I suggest paying attention to the afterlife portion.
It’s still a work in progress somewhat.

I’ve addressed at least some things in the OP but it seems not a lot of people listened to me because of my viewpoints.

Here you go brother.

Can someone link that cosmology blog please? Thank you!

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

I would be more than willing to but it will be "refuted" completely disregarding all of my arguments and their rebuttal will be "it's been discussed before"

Shortly after, a moderator will come in and say "this has been discussed before, thread closed" and my revisions will be completely disregarding and disrespected. If that's how my efforts will he treated, I rather not bother trying to make a revision on the cosmology on Dragonball generally.

Completely agree, literally anything done to promote dragon ball characters like goku,jiren, and bog beerus to 2-c will always be rejected regardless of if your argument is perfect or not. Similarly when i tried to make a CRT discussing a promotion in speed, despite me refuting all counter arguments presented to me or asking why the logic would not be accepted, it was closed.

For whatever reason a promotion of dragon ball characters is completely unacceptable which i find unfair. Something needs to change.

 

[jjvvb]

Completely agree, literally anything done to promote dragon ball characters like goku,jiren, and bog beerus to 2-c will always be rejected regardless of if your argument is perfect or not. Similarly when i tried to make a CRT discussing a promotion in speed, despite me refuting all counter arguments presented to me or asking why the logic would not be accepted, it was closed.

For whatever reason a promotion of dragon ball characters is completely unacceptable which i find unfair. Something needs to change.

Indeed, any attempt to upscale them will instantly be disregarded. Goku and multiple other characters have had feats of speed above MFTL+ since Dragonball Z and as soon as they're brought up, the thread magically gets closed! I have never seen so much directed biased towards a piece of fiction ever before

 

[EmilioRory10]

Similarly when i tried to make a CRT discussing a promotion in speed, despite me refuting all counter arguments presented to me or asking why the logic would not be accepted, it was closed.

For whatever reason a promotion of dragon ball characters is completely unacceptable which i find unfair. Something needs to change.

It's not "completely unacceptable", though the wiki might be biased against DB, the reason your post wasn't accepted and was closed is because even if speed and AP are scaled linearly to each other, becoming Low 2-C isn't enough to have infinite speed, that's because the AP rating isn't perfect.

Especially because Toei likely has no idea the feats make the characters have infinite or higher AP.

Indeed, any attempt to upscale them will instantly be disregarded. Goku and multiple other characters have had feats of speed above MFTL+ since Dragonball Z and as soon as they're brought up, the thread magically gets closed! I have never seen so much directed biased towards a piece of fiction ever before

"above MFTL+" isn't possible unless it's infinite, immeasurable or irrelevant, and I don't really remember any MFTL+ feat in DBZ, only scaling.

 

[Everything12]

Lots of discussion about that Explanation Page going on here.

 

[jjvvb]

It's not "completely unacceptable", though the wiki might be biased against DB, the reason your post wasn't accepted and was closed is because even if speed and AP are scaled linearly to each other, becoming Low 2-C isn't enough to have infinite speed, that's because the AP rating isn't perfect.

Especially because Toei likely has no idea the feats make the characters have infinite or higher AP.


"above MFTL+" isn't possible unless it's infinite, immeasurable or irrelevant, and I don't really remember any MFTL+ feat in DBZ, only scaling.

And what did you think I was referring to? Like please if you want to be contentious at least have a reason for it.

Akira literally said the Daizenshuus are more credible than him yet they completely disregard them.

All arguments to prove that the universe is infinite is completely disregarded which is why some feats like Whis's travel are completely disregarded. You can scale the cosmology to 2-C with 2 scans and this wiki literally closes threads about them because "it's been discussed before" even though all their previous discussions are exactly that, completely disregarding because of past arguments

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Completely agree, literally anything done to promote dragon ball characters like goku,jiren, and bog beerus to 2-c will always be rejected regardless of if your argument is perfect or not. Similarly when i tried to make a CRT discussing a promotion in speed, despite me refuting all counter arguments presented to me or asking why the logic would not be accepted, it was closed.

For whatever reason a promotion of dragon ball characters is completely unacceptable which i find unfair. Something needs to change.

I understand what you mean, but your speed argument was just wrong, scaling speed to AP is wrong.

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

We can discuss it some other time, i don't believe its wrong at all especially given the scans, statements, and reasoning that was present.

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

It's not "completely unacceptable", though the wiki might be biased against DB, the reason your post wasn't accepted and was closed is because even if speed and AP are scaled linearly to each other, becoming Low 2-C isn't enough to have infinite speed, that's because the AP rating isn't perfect.

Especially because Toei likely has no idea the feats make the characters have infinite or higher AP.


"above MFTL+" isn't possible unless it's infinite, immeasurable or irrelevant, and I don't really remember any MFTL+ feat in DBZ, only scaling.

I can discuss it with you later as well, I don't believe the reasoning within my argument was faulty at all, I just don't think here specifically is the right place to discuss that.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

What exactly is the plan here?

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Well if you guys are on board then let's ask zamasu to complete the blog then we can CRT it. Or we can make a blog about the current cosmology, finish this CRT about making a explanation blog, then make a new blog for 2-C u7 and then CRT it.

how about this?

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

how about this?

agree

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Sooo I've done some talking with Ultima and KingPin and I managed to somewhat convince them Universe 7 is indeed 2-C. At least I think, with this statement (raws).

Let me lay down the context. We know Goku was dead when he fought Fat Buu and alive before he fought Kid Buu. During both fights Goku was using up more energy than usual, so it has nothing to do with his body being alive or not. Instead, what’s actually stated makes more sense.
In viz Goku says “time doesn’t mean much” in the afterlife and in the raws he says the universe is “where time exists”. Time obviously exists in the afterlife because 11 months passed on earth and the afterlife at the same time, so time does exist. In fact, they both move at the same rate. Not that it contradicts anything since timelines can move at the same rates. So I think the viz translation lays down the context best.
In this scenario it’s straight up stated that time in the universe is not the same in the afterlife. And it’s implied they have different properties, especially since time “doesn’t mean much”. We know they’re both universal in size, both are called different dimensions, and we have a statement on why they have different time with Goku even giving a simple explanation. Why wouldn’t this be 2-C?

In response to this I got a simple maybe, with a question mark, from KingPin, but Ultima seemed to have more to say. He said the cosmology is likely 2-C but his main concern was the feats and scaling. He said that the BoG feat in the anime and would need statements of time being destroyed for it to be 2-C instead of 3-A.

So, let’s talk about it

 

[Axxtentacle]

I thought statements of time were required to make the cosmology itself (not talking about DB in particular) tier 2 and we just assumed destroying it would be tier 2?

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

I thought statements of time were required to make the cosmology itself (not talking about DB in particular) tier 2 and we just assumed destroying it would be tier 2?

I thought so too but apparently that’s not the case when they’re inside timelines.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Sooo I've done some talking with Ultima and KingPin and I managed to somewhat convince them Universe 7 is indeed 2-C. At least I think, with this statement (raws).



In response to this I got a simple maybe, with a question mark, from KingPin, but Ultima seemed to have more to say. He said the cosmology is likely 2-C but his main concern was the feats and scaling. He said that the BoG feat in the anime and would need statements of time being destroyed for it to be 2-C instead of 3-A.

So, let’s talk about it

Yeah, we tried to prove time was effected but it didn't work. The main argument is Goku and Beerus were effecting separate space times in U7 while being in the living world which means they were effecting the 4-D axis, but we used the ROSAT and demon realm, but were given a no because they weren't universal in size or something I don't remember. If they agree that other world is low 2-C on it's own, it would make U7 2-C, but the counter to this was that Goku can sense energy inside the other world and teleport there very easily but cannot do the same when travelling to beerus' planet in the other world which makes the unquantifiable distances between space times quantifiable or something along those lines if I recall correctly. But this isn't the case with the ROSAT and demon realm which is why we argued with them instead.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Yeah, we tried to prove time was effected but it didn't work. The main argument is Goku and Beerus were effecting separate space times in U7 while being in the living world which means they were effecting the 4-D axis, but we used the ROSAT and demon realm, but were given a no because they weren't universal in size or something I don't remember. If they agree that other world is low 2-C on it's own, it would make U7 2-C, but the counter to this was that Goku can sense energy inside the other world and teleport there very easily but cannot do the same when travelling to beerus' planet in the other world which makes the unquantifiable distances between space times quantifiable or something along those lines if I recall correctly. But this isn't the case with the ROSAT and demon realm which is why we argued with them instead.

Tbf the dimension is stated to be closed off and the actual body of the dimension has an unknown location. So I don’t see why that would be a counter argument in the first place.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

I thought so too but apparently that’s not the case when they’re inside timelines.

Wait, doesn’t the manga mentions timelines prior to DBS? I am aware of the time travel Future Trunks did during the arc with the Androids and Cell.
I mean after all as far as I am aware, Universe 7 does have the past, present, and future timeline IIRC.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

He said the cosmology is likely 2-C but his main concern was the feats and scaling.

To clarify on that: I was open to the possibility of the Afterlife and Universe 7 both comprising a 2-C spacetime because of the logic outlined by DontTalk both in here and in the past thread involving the topic of whether or not the Twelve Universes share a timeline. In both of these, it was concluded that a single axis of time could service multiple spacetimes, and thus, that a multiverse could be 2-C regardless of whether or not the universes in it each have independent temporal dimensions.

My uncertainties in that regard mostly came from our page on universes, where this is stated, which seems to clash with what I cited above:

The Worlds being different bodies of space is not enough to consider them universes, as that does not quite prove they have different timelines. Especially if they are afterlives. Afterlives often are different bodies of space, but are generally condensed in the same timeline unless there's more proof otherwise.

And, provided we do accept that thing as 2-C anyway, I expressed my belief that it wouldn't necessarily scale to anyone, the logic for which I outlined in this post.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Wait, doesn’t the manga mentions timelines prior to DBS? I am aware of the time travel Future Trunks did during the arc with the Androids and Cell.
I mean after all as far as I am aware, Universe 7 does have the past, present, and future timeline IIRC.

Yes. The timelines were introduced before the 11 other universes were.

 

[Orange]

Wait, doesn’t the manga mentions timelines prior to DBS? I am aware of the time travel Future Trunks did during the arc with the Androids and Cell.
I mean after all as far as I am aware, Universe 7 does have the past, present, and future timeline IIRC.

Yes, I think it was multiple worlds/timelines/futures are created over the smallest things
Plus dbh calls the universes as time/timeline, and xv has a statement that indicates each universe is it's own timeline/ it has it's own time

 

[Bernkastelll]

To clarify on that: I was open to the possibility of the Afterlife and Universe 7 both comprising a 2-C spacetime because of the logic outlined by DontTalk both in here and in the past thread involving the topic of whether or not the Twelve Universes share a timeline. In both of these, it was concluded that a single axis of time could service multiple spacetimes, and thus, that a multiverse could be 2-C regardless of whether or not the universes in it each have independent temporal dimensions.

My uncertainties in that regard mostly came from our page on universes, where this is stated, which seems to clash with what I cited above:



And, provided we do accept that thing as 2-C anyway, I expressed my belief that it wouldn't necessarily scale to anyone, the logic for which I outlined in this post.

The multiverse actually should be Low 1-C because a single time ring add an Extra temporal axis to a timeline that already is 4-D, which means 3 spatial dimensions with 2 temporal dimensions, but thats another matter