- 5,464
- 12,463
Because I am a prick.
the thingy
So, The Star Maker is rated at 1-A primarily because of this:
"Created cosmoses that precede the concept of dimensions. Created infinite cosmoses with infinite diversity, including dimensionless "cosmoses" where its creatures were each existing in independence from each other. Only acting in stimulation of the Star Maker, these creatures had their own reality conceived by the figments of its imagination. Created non-spatial cosmoses, cosmoses where time doesn't exist and cosmoses with no physical nature. Created the hierarchy of creations which includes the cosmoses mentioned above, each cosmos in this hierarchy are greater and more complex than the last. The Star Maker created the Ultimate Cosmos, the most subtle and perfect cosmos that exists at the top of the hierarchy of creations. The Ultimate Cosmos has the essence of every cosmos and much more. All other previous cosmoses are irrelevant in comparison to the Ultimate Cosmos"
Looking at this justification alone I already noticed some pretty glaring problems with it, and how it apparently warrants an Outerversal rating. The profile isn't too clear about some stuff, so I will dissect some of the quotes present in the blog linked at the bottom of the page, which is supposed to elaborate on why that thing is 1-A and yada yada:
Space, my dream declared, appeared first as a development of a non-spatial dimension in a "musical" cosmos. The tonal creatures in this cosmos could move not merely "up" and "down" the scale but "sideways." In human music particular themes may seem to approach or retreat, owing to variations of loudness and timbre. In a rather similar manner the creatures in this "musical" cosmos could approach one another or retreat and finally vanish out of earshot. In passing "sideways" they traveled through continuously changing tonal environments. In a subsequent cosmos this "sideways" motion of the creatures was enriched with true spatial experience.
Many of these early universes were non-spatial, though none the less physical. And of these non-spatial universes not a few were of the "musical" type, in which space was strangely represented by a dimension corresponding to musical pitch, and capacious with myriads of tonal differences. The creatures appeared to one another as complex patterns and rhythms of tonal characters. They could move their tonal bodies in the dimension of pitch, and sometimes in other dimensions, humanly inconceivable. A creature's body was a more or less constant tonal pattern, with much the same degree of flexibility and minor changefulness as a human body. Also, it could traverse other living bodies in the pitch dimension much as wave-trains on a pond may cross one another.
This is not an indication that the first Cosmoses created by the Star Maker preceded the concept of dimension, or anything of the sort. In fact the very text debunks that, as it says they did possess Dimensions of a non-spatiotemporal, more abstract nature, and even goes as far as stating they were still physical in nature, in spite of the fact they lacked any form of spatial existence. This alone should already prove the Star Maker's feat isn't 1-A in scale, but I'd rather elaborate a bit more on it, for clarity's sake. This is an argument I already used a bunch of times in past threads and I'm pretty sure at least some of you know the gist of it, but aaaaanyways...
Basically, the whole point of the Tiering System is to measure objects and spaces based on the notion of geometrical size (dImInShUnS), pretty much extending the notion of "X is bigger than Y" to fit into higher-end stuffs. The thing is that in the context of it, lacking spatiotemporal dimensions/existence isn't an indicator that you are bigger or smaller than anything, rather it would indicate that you are really ******' weird in nature and have no actual quantifiable size. This obviously shouldn't impact tiering, as it is all about AP and sheer size in the first place.
Lacking something is obviously vastly different from being outright superior to it in nature, conflating the two and saying something of an aspatiotemporal nature would automatically stomp anything bound by space-time through sheer raw power is like saying something without capsaicin is hotter than any pepper. It would only mean these two specific constants wouldn't really apply to you, not that you're a transcendental god who perceives anything with a different nature as insects or something.
And by the way, looking at the quotes in the blog, this is exactly what the Star Maker demonstrates: He creates different universes with differing fundamental laws and constants, each more complex than the last in terms of structure. He is something like an artist going from drawing simple shapes and figures (Such as a stickman) to drawing genuine works of art, like famous paintings from the renaissance (Such as the Mona Lisa)
Literally nothing suggests the Universes he creates are hierarchically ascending planes or anything of the sort, as his profile seems to suggest, the fact cosmoses with actual defined laws and physical constants such as our own are deemed more complex than those that lack them by the story itself should speak volumes here.
In one inconceivably complex cosmos, whenever a creature was faced with several possible courses of action, it took them all, thereby creating many distinct temporal dimensions and distinct histories of the cosmos. Since in every evolutionary sequence of the cosmos there were very many creatures, and each was constantly faced with many possible courses, and the combinations of all their courses were innumerable, an infinity of distinct universes exfoliated from every moment of every temporal sequence in this cosmos.
I vaguely remember someone bringing up the fact that "Temporal Dimensions" are mentioned here to say this is a High 1-B feat. I may be remembering incorrectly but really, it's painfully obvious that this is referring to timelines which branch off of a singular universe.
I should also note he somehow has Plot Manipulation due to creating a Universe where the author and readers of the book are present. This just seems like metafictional shenanigans involving the sheer variety of the Cosmoses he creates resulting in worlds where Olaf Stapledon actually exists and is writing Star Maker. No different from another part of the book which says the Star Maker used to interfere with the initial Cosmoses he created by inducing revelations and epiphanies on people.
the thingy
So, The Star Maker is rated at 1-A primarily because of this:
"Created cosmoses that precede the concept of dimensions. Created infinite cosmoses with infinite diversity, including dimensionless "cosmoses" where its creatures were each existing in independence from each other. Only acting in stimulation of the Star Maker, these creatures had their own reality conceived by the figments of its imagination. Created non-spatial cosmoses, cosmoses where time doesn't exist and cosmoses with no physical nature. Created the hierarchy of creations which includes the cosmoses mentioned above, each cosmos in this hierarchy are greater and more complex than the last. The Star Maker created the Ultimate Cosmos, the most subtle and perfect cosmos that exists at the top of the hierarchy of creations. The Ultimate Cosmos has the essence of every cosmos and much more. All other previous cosmoses are irrelevant in comparison to the Ultimate Cosmos"
Looking at this justification alone I already noticed some pretty glaring problems with it, and how it apparently warrants an Outerversal rating. The profile isn't too clear about some stuff, so I will dissect some of the quotes present in the blog linked at the bottom of the page, which is supposed to elaborate on why that thing is 1-A and yada yada:
Space, my dream declared, appeared first as a development of a non-spatial dimension in a "musical" cosmos. The tonal creatures in this cosmos could move not merely "up" and "down" the scale but "sideways." In human music particular themes may seem to approach or retreat, owing to variations of loudness and timbre. In a rather similar manner the creatures in this "musical" cosmos could approach one another or retreat and finally vanish out of earshot. In passing "sideways" they traveled through continuously changing tonal environments. In a subsequent cosmos this "sideways" motion of the creatures was enriched with true spatial experience.
Many of these early universes were non-spatial, though none the less physical. And of these non-spatial universes not a few were of the "musical" type, in which space was strangely represented by a dimension corresponding to musical pitch, and capacious with myriads of tonal differences. The creatures appeared to one another as complex patterns and rhythms of tonal characters. They could move their tonal bodies in the dimension of pitch, and sometimes in other dimensions, humanly inconceivable. A creature's body was a more or less constant tonal pattern, with much the same degree of flexibility and minor changefulness as a human body. Also, it could traverse other living bodies in the pitch dimension much as wave-trains on a pond may cross one another.
This is not an indication that the first Cosmoses created by the Star Maker preceded the concept of dimension, or anything of the sort. In fact the very text debunks that, as it says they did possess Dimensions of a non-spatiotemporal, more abstract nature, and even goes as far as stating they were still physical in nature, in spite of the fact they lacked any form of spatial existence. This alone should already prove the Star Maker's feat isn't 1-A in scale, but I'd rather elaborate a bit more on it, for clarity's sake. This is an argument I already used a bunch of times in past threads and I'm pretty sure at least some of you know the gist of it, but aaaaanyways...
Basically, the whole point of the Tiering System is to measure objects and spaces based on the notion of geometrical size (dImInShUnS), pretty much extending the notion of "X is bigger than Y" to fit into higher-end stuffs. The thing is that in the context of it, lacking spatiotemporal dimensions/existence isn't an indicator that you are bigger or smaller than anything, rather it would indicate that you are really ******' weird in nature and have no actual quantifiable size. This obviously shouldn't impact tiering, as it is all about AP and sheer size in the first place.
Lacking something is obviously vastly different from being outright superior to it in nature, conflating the two and saying something of an aspatiotemporal nature would automatically stomp anything bound by space-time through sheer raw power is like saying something without capsaicin is hotter than any pepper. It would only mean these two specific constants wouldn't really apply to you, not that you're a transcendental god who perceives anything with a different nature as insects or something.
And by the way, looking at the quotes in the blog, this is exactly what the Star Maker demonstrates: He creates different universes with differing fundamental laws and constants, each more complex than the last in terms of structure. He is something like an artist going from drawing simple shapes and figures (Such as a stickman) to drawing genuine works of art, like famous paintings from the renaissance (Such as the Mona Lisa)
Literally nothing suggests the Universes he creates are hierarchically ascending planes or anything of the sort, as his profile seems to suggest, the fact cosmoses with actual defined laws and physical constants such as our own are deemed more complex than those that lack them by the story itself should speak volumes here.
In one inconceivably complex cosmos, whenever a creature was faced with several possible courses of action, it took them all, thereby creating many distinct temporal dimensions and distinct histories of the cosmos. Since in every evolutionary sequence of the cosmos there were very many creatures, and each was constantly faced with many possible courses, and the combinations of all their courses were innumerable, an infinity of distinct universes exfoliated from every moment of every temporal sequence in this cosmos.
I vaguely remember someone bringing up the fact that "Temporal Dimensions" are mentioned here to say this is a High 1-B feat. I may be remembering incorrectly but really, it's painfully obvious that this is referring to timelines which branch off of a singular universe.
I should also note he somehow has Plot Manipulation due to creating a Universe where the author and readers of the book are present. This just seems like metafictional shenanigans involving the sheer variety of the Cosmoses he creates resulting in worlds where Olaf Stapledon actually exists and is writing Star Maker. No different from another part of the book which says the Star Maker used to interfere with the initial Cosmoses he created by inducing revelations and epiphanies on people.
