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About Damn Time - The Soul of Cinder vs The Moon Presence

Keeweed said:
SoC >Gwyn, chosen undead, soliare, bearer of the curse, and every lord in dark souls 3 all of which can keep the sun existing.
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sun isnt even 4c, while call beyond summons multiple stars
 
Keeweed said:
SoC >Gwyn, chosen undead, soliare, bearer of the curse, and every lord in dark souls 3 all of which can keep the sun existing.
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I know, but I mean, that would make him way above baseline 4-C, enough to put him at a high level of High 4-C. But the Celestial Emissary is also on that level and he is way... way below MP.
 
sun isnt even 4c, while call beyond summons multiple stars

Then why is SoC 4-c if that's his feat, also call from beyond summons 1 explosive not multiple.
 
Keeweed said:
Then why is SoC 4-c if that's his feat, also call from beyond summons 1 explosive not multiple.
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its being revised as it is,

and here you can see that multiple stars apear, and they dont come from INSIDE the hands of the hunter either
 
For example, the GBE of the Sun, which is listed as the baseline for the 4-C tier. Except the GBE of the Sun is only 2.277146e+40 joules; which is a far-cry from the value listed in the profile. It would only fall under Low 4-C
 
its being revised as it is,

and here you can see that multiple stars apear, and they dont come from INSIDE the hands of the hunter either

I played the game before I know the spell, but the lore say a star not multiple.
 
Therefir said:
Lords of Cinder are fodder compared to SoC.
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yes, but the fodder im talking about is spamming 4c attacks just to get attention

the lords are 4c because of an error of tiering as it sein discussed
 
Therefir said:
A call beyond would be downgraded too.
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no, the gravitation needed to hold the sun toghether is being downgraded, a calll beyond doesent do that, and its refered to as a stear, so we assume its an avarege 2c star
 
the base version of it i s, its stronger versions are still dwarfed by him, and it doesnt use the sun, so it will probably be updated
 
Soul of Cinder is High 4-C for having the souls of at least 9 but likely many, many, many more Lords of Cinder, all of whom can power the sun. They are able to power the sun for thousands of years, as evidenced by Gwyn. There are likely hundreds of Lords of Cinder inside the Soul of Cinder, if not thousands- there are countless dead Fire Keepers, each one would likely have their own Lord. Not to mention that there would be many Lords between games, as they are thousands of years apart (long enough for the name of Artorias to be forgotten).


Call Beyond explodes only one star. It creates multiple projectiles out of it. Besides multiple projectiles, there is nothing to say that the multiple projectiles ARE other stars.
 
I'm pretty sure SoC would be still possibly High 4-C, but not 4-B anymore.
 
Celestial Emissary is well below MP, but not as much as you think. The Hunter having no chance to fight them is basically a simple matter of the MP not allowing it to happen, probably due to Mind Manip more than anything. It isn't an AP feat, just a skill feat.
 
Mr. Bambu said:
Celestial Emissary is well below MP, but not as much as you think. The Hunter having no chance to fight them is basically a simple matter of the MP not allowing it to happen, probably due to Mind Manip more than anything. It isn't an AP feat, just a skill feat.
Click to expand...
Nope, the game makes very clear that the Hunter can't stand against Moon Presence in his "base" form.

In Childhood's Beginning however, the power of the eyes on the inside manifest when MP tries to grab the Hunter and he is pushed away, so he sees the Hunter as a threat and fight him. The game is very clear in one thing: the Hunter is not a threat to MP if he doesn't have the eyes on the inside (by using the umbylical cords).
 
But even if we consider that MP is not much stronger than the Hunter, he'd still be way above baseline 4-C:

MP > other Great Ones > most kin bosses > Celestial Emissary > lots os lesser celestial emissaries > one single emissary = 4-C
 
Yes. I know the game makes clear that you can't stand against the Moon Presence. Like I said, it is due to Mind Manip, which you even state with the "eyes on the inside" thing. Insight is the ability to perceive the Eldritch Truth, mostly without going insane (though going insane is still considered a blessing).

Using the Umbilical Cords GIVES you Insight. It is boosting your ability to perceive that which is there. Your eyes let you battle the Moon Presence, not your AP.
 
That doesn't make any sense, the more Insight you have, the more difficult it is to deal with "things the human mind can't comprehend". You even get more damage from Frenzy according to your Insight level, why would it be different with the Moon Presence?

The Hunter definitely gets stronger by manifesting the power of the umbylical cords.
 
I think I'll change my vote to inconclusive. Their tier justification is petty much MP> E and A> OR =R> CE, But SoC= G,CU,BoC,Y,AW,A,L and L, S, and possibly many more, so I don't think it possible to truly say who's stronger. It depends if MP Mind Hax works or not, if it does he mind haxs and calls it a day, if it doesn't he gets lightning speared to the face and dies.
 
@Weekly Argument? There's nothing that tells us that it actively makes you stronger. Only that the Cords are able to let us ascend.

@Nephalem There is some amount of credence to the saying "Ignorance is Bliss". Without Insight, Yharnam is a city riddled with beasts and people who do not know the truth and thus have no way of fighting it. With Insight, Yharnam is a city plagued by Eldritch monstrosities with nearly incomprehensible agendas behind them. It is harder to battle the latter, but the Insight allows one's mind to adjust.

Frenzy is directly related to the mind. And yes, it is easier to go insane with the more knowledge you have- "Madman's Knowledge". But the Hunter resists it and pushes on. Just because it makes the game harder doesn't really mean much. The ascension allows you to resist the power of the MP, not boosts your physical strength. That assumption has no grounds.
 
Mr. Bambu said:
@Weekly Argument? There's nothing that tells us that it actively makes you stronger. Only that the Cords are able to let us ascend.
Click to expand...
Without the Umbilical Cords, the Moon Presence oneshots the Hunter after he kills Gehrman. With the Umbilical Cords theyre on even grounds
 
Without the Umbilical Cords, the Moon Presence oneshots the Hunter after he kills Gehrman. With the Umbilical Cords theyre on even grounds

He didn't one shot you; he grabs you and it cuts to you riding on Gehrman's wheel chair. He probably mindhaxed you into submission.
 
Keeweed said:
He didn't one shot you; he grabs you and it cuts to you riding on Gehrman's wheel chair. He probably mindhaxed you into submission.
Click to expand...
The Moon Presence physically restrains the Hunter without the unbilical cords, but the hunter with the umbilical cords is able to break free.
 
The Moon Presence physically restrains the Hunter without the unbilical cords, but the hunter with the umbilical cords is able to break free.

He was restraining you with the chords aswell; he probably let go because you had the insight to understand him (the hunter didn't physically escape, the white flash of light is why it let you go).
 
I think you're getting it wrong. Insight makes the mind evolve to "transcend humanity" and see things one shouldn't be able to see, but that's it, it won't help to understand such things; I believe the game even makes that very clear by adding this mechanic: more Insight = more susceptibility to Frenzy.

The thing is, more Insight won't help you deal with mindhax, the umbylical cords won't either. The most logical thing to assume is that the umbylical cords upgrade the Hunter's AP.
 
Keeweed said:
He was restraining you with the chords aswell; he probably let go because you had the insight to understand him (the hunter didn't physically escape, the white flash of light is why it let you go).
Click to expand...
The flash light is likely the power of the umbylical cords power manifesting, not just a light that pushed MP away, or he would just grab the Hunter again.
 
The flash light is likely the power of the umbylical cords power manifesting, not just a light that pushed MP away, or he would just grab the Hunter again.

It could be just as likely the hunter is no longer getting mindhaxed into oblivion; It can be seen in many ways considering the hunter doesn't even attempt to fight back (I was going to link a video but my new phone doesn't have YouTube and every video is age restricted) Edit* if the chords just increases his ap this makes it worse for the Moon Presence since it means he can't Mind Hax the hunter and is still weak to the SoC's lightning attacks.
 
I just don't think that the Moon Presence is mindhaxing the Hunter in that ending scene.

I mean, we've seen how crazy someone can get by being mindhaxed in the game (Cage-Head) and it's nothing like the Hunter's or Gehrman's situation. In my opinion, both the Hunter and Gehrman were just too weak to oppose MP.
 
@Therefir Whether or not the Umbilical cords grant you a better mind resistance thing in Bloodborne or phyisically make you stronger. The former's argument is that they give you Insight and will grant you understanding of the Eldritch Truth, thus letting you resist mind hax.

The latter's argument is that this doesn't make sense as Frenzy harms you more when you have more Insight and thus the Umbilical Cords make you stronger physically.
 
LordNephalem said:
I just don't think that the Moon Presence is mindhaxing the Hunter in that ending scene.

I mean, we've seen how crazy someone can get by being mindhaxed in the game (Cage-Head) and it's nothing like the Hunter's or Gehrman's situation. In my opinion, both the Hunter and Gehrman were just too weak to oppose MP.
Click to expand...
Good point but he could be Mind Haxing in a different way, but if it just increases ap that probably just makes this worse for the Moon Presence since the amount of people who linked the flame is either 9 or much higher and the SoC loves lighting based attacks.
 
@Lord Mentally weak. Hence the Insight.


Let's turn this question around for a second. Why in the world would the Umbilical Cord make you physically stronger? There is literally NOTHING to support that whereas we are presenting in-game facts that support the "make the mind stronger" side of things.


So what makes the Umbilical Cord make you stronger?
 
Go ask to Everlasting, because if MP can mindhax, this a stomp.
 
LordNephalem said:
Well, the umbylical cords make the Hunter ascend to become a Great One.

It does make sense to say it's making you stronger.
Click to expand...
While he did become the greatest great one (according to the achievements) he was still a baby great one at the end of the game
 
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