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I favor both tbh. But I like the hax=ap one better.
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About 2-B Alien X (Continued)
- Thread starter ProfessorKukui4Life
- Start date
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All right thank you for your input.
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There is a thread going on to put alien x at 2-A?
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@Bad Thread:3677775
My_area
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Though scaling from just strongest statement seems iffy to me but its just my personal view and shouldn't matter anymore and I really have not much to say anymore so I guess I will agree with 2-B Alien X scaling from chrono navigator and CTB for now and yeah I guess hax could translate to AP in this case
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Recreating the CTB is also a supporting feat since it might still use a 2-B power-source despite being existence erasure based.
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Kukui said that he'll be done with his semester this week so I guess I'll wait for him to come back and give his input.
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Sorry for the long wait everyone. My semester at college is finished, done with school for now, so I have more time to respond to things here. Anyway, my rebuttals.
>Yes they do use hax, it's even mentioned on ther wiki page.
Which can, and is, wrong and can be changed. Irrelevant.
>Reality destruction is another form of reality warping
No, it's not. We don't even consider it as that here ourselves , so your making things up here now. Reality destruction is an AP feat, not a hax feat. The fact that not every reality destroyer, as low as 4-A or as high as tier 2, doesn't automatically have this should already tell you why its not a hax.
>The Chronosapien Timebomb uses time and spatial manipulation to destroy the timelines, which are obviously both hax abilities.
Talking about the Navigator. Not the time bomb.
>And again, the Celestialsapiens have been stated to be able to do anything, why you arbtirarily decide that being able to replicate the feats of both weapons isnt included in the word "anything" is beyond me.
Because it's not something to be taken literally like you want it to be taken as? I shouldn't have to explain this bit. Someone arbitrarily giving hyperbolic statements like this, which are common in many fictional verses if you didn't know, doesn't remotely mean its to be taken as true. It's borderline wank. Especially when the devices you want to include here are something no Celestialsapien is ever even directly compared with.
>How is "anything" vague?
With no supporting feat? Just hyping someone up to inflated levels to do something they've never shown they can do? Put 2 and 2 together please.
And don't take that last part personally btw, I genuinely don't mean any disrespect coming from it.
>Omnipotent does not mean " god-like", it means "unlimted power" or " able to do anything", and since we cant assume antyhing beyond what has been shown in the series, the most logical reasoning would be that the character is limited to what has been shown in the series.
Except that it does mean that because that is what it's generally referring to in fiction, for anything that isn't a literal omnipotent. And that's exactly how it is treated here too. Anything that is considered "omnipotent" without being literally treated as such is only because they have a strength, or overpowered ability, that is "god-tier status" compared to everyone else in their respective fictional universe. And since you still want to try and deny this, I can give you multiple examples of this.
First example, Yhwach from Bleach. Yhwach is stated to have Omnipotent and Omniscient powers because of his ability, "The Almighty". We obviously don't take this at heart because it's just hyperbolic language used to describe Yhwach's powers being god-like compared to nearly everyone else in the Bleachverse. He isn't capable of "anything" in Bleach as he has established limits and he most certaintly doesn't have infinite knowledge.
Second example, Arceus from Pokemon. Arceus has an ability literally called "Omnipotent" which allows him to inflict damage on Pokemon of any and all types in Pokemon. Has nothing to do with actual omnipotence or otherwise, it's just an OP ability for Arceus since he's the god of Pokemon and the creator of the multiverse.
Another example, Hao Asakura from Shaman King. Hao is stated to be Omnipotent and Omniscient because of him being the Shaman King, an entity that its "all powerful" and "all knowing" when being united with the Great Spirit . This isn't taken as anything more than "just being god like" either since it's obvious the Shaman King or Great Spirit cannot do anything either. For one, the GS can be forcefully bound to a random person. And new Shaman Kings are determined one after the other, which debunks the notion of "can do anything" here. It's simply considered that because of it being the god of spirits whom all souls originate from and watches over the universe as a king.
Hopefully, I don't need to give more examples. "Omnipotent", "all powerful", "can do anything", they are all hyperbolic flowery terms when it comes to vs debating. They simply reference someone who has god-like strength, or god-like abilities, compared to the norms of their respective fictional verse. Just as you saw with the examples I listed before. And without any defined context added, they are as vague as they can get. Someone can be considered "omnipotent" for having an overpowered hax ability while someone else can be considered the same for having incomparable strength.
And using common sense, it's obvious that Alien X and no Celestialsapien can literally do anything in the Ben 10 Multiverse. Otherwise, trival limitations like having multiple personalities would literally be a non-existent weakness for them.
>No, not really. How does opening portals have anything to do with chain reaction???
Because you aren't directly destroying X with Y attack? Your using an alternate medium, like portals, to do the feat? Look at the example I previously gave again, King Boo. Using a portal to destroy something is entirely different from using actual attack potency to destroy it. You know, with an attack from your own power.
>King Boo is still listed as universal, it's just that he cant exactly use the portals without killing himself, but it doesnt change the fact that he is universal.
Through strictly a process that doesn't scale to him directly. If you use an alternate source or medium to do the feat, rather than your own individual power, then the feat doesn't scale to you. So yes King Boo is Universal, but not individually. Which is an explicit requirement for scaling a feat to someone else. There's a reason why the Low 2-C rating doesn't scale to others.
It's like if a wall level character is city level through using a bomb to destroy cities. Defeating said wall level character wouldn't make you city level yourself, unless you specifically overpowered their bomb.
>How would the Chrono Navigator not scale to something it itself makes?
Just like why any character that performs a chain reaction feat doesnt scale to said feat. They may be doing the feat, but its through an indirect process. An overtime process at that.
>We have no indication of it doing so with AP, the burden of proof is on you when the context of the episode tells us otherwise.
I don't really need to do though. Because even if the navigator is doing it through hax, the feat doesn't scale to anyone. A chain reaction feat doesn't scale to anything as it's indirectly separate from the power of who's doing it and it's done over a period of time. Not immediately.
So you guys basically gave your arguments a double edged sword.
>I was always saying that each image of Earth is an alternate timeline. Said circles in the backround of the map are also Earths representing alternate timelines.
The former isn't the issue, the latter is. There is absolutely no evidence that those dots in the background of the map are Earths. Thats an assumption.
>The source material and the writers consistently refer to Celestialsapiens as the strongest knowing that the Chrono Navigator exists. There are no retcons or counter statements to them being the strongest.
Doesn't really matter. Because that's from a writing perspective rather than a logistical one.
This is like saying Jire from DBS isn't the strongest enemy Goku's ever faced because the writers brought Broly in afterward. Or that Arceus shouldnt be 2-B because the writers written him to nearly die from a meteor despite knowing full well what his status is in the Pokemonverse.
>There is no evidense to suggest that Celestialsapien's power is only limited by hacks. It can incude hacks, yes, but how is it limited to only that?
I never claimed this. Of course Celestialsapiens don't just have hax abilities. My point is that what's considered "the greatest power" from them is through hax according to the statements given.
You can argue their power is apart of that, but you'd need more evidence for that interpretation to be correct. That was my point from the beginning.
>You do realize you arguing that a being consistantly stated to have the greatest power and Omnipotent
Omnipotent means nothing, see above. And "greatest power" doesnt mean anything without defined context.
>The holes in time would have destroyed everything eventually, but Eon took a more direct approach. When Eon was intentionally trying to destroy everything, the Navigator shot out some form of energy.
This doesn't change anything for your side. In fact, it actually makes this even worse for you. Not only does this contradict the argument of the Chrono Navigator using hax for it's "feat", it also supports my point of this being a chain reaction drawn out feat either way you slice it.
If the Navigator even remotely had 2-B level energy, it would have immediately destroyed existence. Or at the very least, destroyed something. What do we get instead? A thunderbolt with strong winds and a thunderstorm, not remotely destroying anuthing immediately and directly. Doorinmyhouse, a person who sides with you, even references this in previous replies. So the only thing your comment here proves is that, if the Navigator uses any actual energy for destruction at all, it's not 2-B. From everything gathered from this, we have 2 different possibilities.
One, the Chrono Navigator is AP, not Hax, and does the feat through an overtime drawn out process for not immediately destroying the multiverse, making the feat unable to be scaled to anyone. Not even the Chrono Navigator itself.
Or
Two, the Chrono Navigator is Hax instead of AP, but does the feat through a chain reaction drawn out process using portals as the medium to destroy the multiverse, which also doesn't scale to anyone. Not even the Chrono Navigator itself.
No matter which point you choose, the feat doesn't scale to anyone.
>I dont see any reason not to treat is as hax, considering literally everything else the Chrono Navigator has done was hax-related. And again, destroying reality, which is a form of reality warping, is already listed as hax on this site
It's not, check our Reality Warping page. Reality destruction is simple pocket space/universe/multierse destruction. Not hax. It's AP.
And anyway, you can't have this both ways. The Navigator either uses hax or AP. If hax, then the feat doesnt scale to anyone or anything since using portals to destroy the multiverse overtime doesn't directly scale you to 2-B. And if AP, then it returns to my original point. Not only that, it strengthens my argument since even with AP, the Navigator still wouldnt be directly 2-B since it's energy didnt immediately destroy the Multiverse or even begin to destroy it.
Sorry for this being dragged out, but this is not over yet.
>Yes they do use hax, it's even mentioned on ther wiki page.
Which can, and is, wrong and can be changed. Irrelevant.
>Reality destruction is another form of reality warping
No, it's not. We don't even consider it as that here ourselves , so your making things up here now. Reality destruction is an AP feat, not a hax feat. The fact that not every reality destroyer, as low as 4-A or as high as tier 2, doesn't automatically have this should already tell you why its not a hax.
>The Chronosapien Timebomb uses time and spatial manipulation to destroy the timelines, which are obviously both hax abilities.
Talking about the Navigator. Not the time bomb.
>And again, the Celestialsapiens have been stated to be able to do anything, why you arbtirarily decide that being able to replicate the feats of both weapons isnt included in the word "anything" is beyond me.
Because it's not something to be taken literally like you want it to be taken as? I shouldn't have to explain this bit. Someone arbitrarily giving hyperbolic statements like this, which are common in many fictional verses if you didn't know, doesn't remotely mean its to be taken as true. It's borderline wank. Especially when the devices you want to include here are something no Celestialsapien is ever even directly compared with.
>How is "anything" vague?
With no supporting feat? Just hyping someone up to inflated levels to do something they've never shown they can do? Put 2 and 2 together please.
And don't take that last part personally btw, I genuinely don't mean any disrespect coming from it.
>Omnipotent does not mean " god-like", it means "unlimted power" or " able to do anything", and since we cant assume antyhing beyond what has been shown in the series, the most logical reasoning would be that the character is limited to what has been shown in the series.
Except that it does mean that because that is what it's generally referring to in fiction, for anything that isn't a literal omnipotent. And that's exactly how it is treated here too. Anything that is considered "omnipotent" without being literally treated as such is only because they have a strength, or overpowered ability, that is "god-tier status" compared to everyone else in their respective fictional universe. And since you still want to try and deny this, I can give you multiple examples of this.
First example, Yhwach from Bleach. Yhwach is stated to have Omnipotent and Omniscient powers because of his ability, "The Almighty". We obviously don't take this at heart because it's just hyperbolic language used to describe Yhwach's powers being god-like compared to nearly everyone else in the Bleachverse. He isn't capable of "anything" in Bleach as he has established limits and he most certaintly doesn't have infinite knowledge.
Second example, Arceus from Pokemon. Arceus has an ability literally called "Omnipotent" which allows him to inflict damage on Pokemon of any and all types in Pokemon. Has nothing to do with actual omnipotence or otherwise, it's just an OP ability for Arceus since he's the god of Pokemon and the creator of the multiverse.
Another example, Hao Asakura from Shaman King. Hao is stated to be Omnipotent and Omniscient because of him being the Shaman King, an entity that its "all powerful" and "all knowing" when being united with the Great Spirit . This isn't taken as anything more than "just being god like" either since it's obvious the Shaman King or Great Spirit cannot do anything either. For one, the GS can be forcefully bound to a random person. And new Shaman Kings are determined one after the other, which debunks the notion of "can do anything" here. It's simply considered that because of it being the god of spirits whom all souls originate from and watches over the universe as a king.
Hopefully, I don't need to give more examples. "Omnipotent", "all powerful", "can do anything", they are all hyperbolic flowery terms when it comes to vs debating. They simply reference someone who has god-like strength, or god-like abilities, compared to the norms of their respective fictional verse. Just as you saw with the examples I listed before. And without any defined context added, they are as vague as they can get. Someone can be considered "omnipotent" for having an overpowered hax ability while someone else can be considered the same for having incomparable strength.
And using common sense, it's obvious that Alien X and no Celestialsapien can literally do anything in the Ben 10 Multiverse. Otherwise, trival limitations like having multiple personalities would literally be a non-existent weakness for them.
>No, not really. How does opening portals have anything to do with chain reaction???
Because you aren't directly destroying X with Y attack? Your using an alternate medium, like portals, to do the feat? Look at the example I previously gave again, King Boo. Using a portal to destroy something is entirely different from using actual attack potency to destroy it. You know, with an attack from your own power.
>King Boo is still listed as universal, it's just that he cant exactly use the portals without killing himself, but it doesnt change the fact that he is universal.
Through strictly a process that doesn't scale to him directly. If you use an alternate source or medium to do the feat, rather than your own individual power, then the feat doesn't scale to you. So yes King Boo is Universal, but not individually. Which is an explicit requirement for scaling a feat to someone else. There's a reason why the Low 2-C rating doesn't scale to others.
It's like if a wall level character is city level through using a bomb to destroy cities. Defeating said wall level character wouldn't make you city level yourself, unless you specifically overpowered their bomb.
>How would the Chrono Navigator not scale to something it itself makes?
Just like why any character that performs a chain reaction feat doesnt scale to said feat. They may be doing the feat, but its through an indirect process. An overtime process at that.
>We have no indication of it doing so with AP, the burden of proof is on you when the context of the episode tells us otherwise.
I don't really need to do though. Because even if the navigator is doing it through hax, the feat doesn't scale to anyone. A chain reaction feat doesn't scale to anything as it's indirectly separate from the power of who's doing it and it's done over a period of time. Not immediately.
So you guys basically gave your arguments a double edged sword.
>I was always saying that each image of Earth is an alternate timeline. Said circles in the backround of the map are also Earths representing alternate timelines.
The former isn't the issue, the latter is. There is absolutely no evidence that those dots in the background of the map are Earths. Thats an assumption.
>The source material and the writers consistently refer to Celestialsapiens as the strongest knowing that the Chrono Navigator exists. There are no retcons or counter statements to them being the strongest.
Doesn't really matter. Because that's from a writing perspective rather than a logistical one.
This is like saying Jire from DBS isn't the strongest enemy Goku's ever faced because the writers brought Broly in afterward. Or that Arceus shouldnt be 2-B because the writers written him to nearly die from a meteor despite knowing full well what his status is in the Pokemonverse.
>There is no evidense to suggest that Celestialsapien's power is only limited by hacks. It can incude hacks, yes, but how is it limited to only that?
I never claimed this. Of course Celestialsapiens don't just have hax abilities. My point is that what's considered "the greatest power" from them is through hax according to the statements given.
You can argue their power is apart of that, but you'd need more evidence for that interpretation to be correct. That was my point from the beginning.
>You do realize you arguing that a being consistantly stated to have the greatest power and Omnipotent
Omnipotent means nothing, see above. And "greatest power" doesnt mean anything without defined context.
>The holes in time would have destroyed everything eventually, but Eon took a more direct approach. When Eon was intentionally trying to destroy everything, the Navigator shot out some form of energy.
This doesn't change anything for your side. In fact, it actually makes this even worse for you. Not only does this contradict the argument of the Chrono Navigator using hax for it's "feat", it also supports my point of this being a chain reaction drawn out feat either way you slice it.
If the Navigator even remotely had 2-B level energy, it would have immediately destroyed existence. Or at the very least, destroyed something. What do we get instead? A thunderbolt with strong winds and a thunderstorm, not remotely destroying anuthing immediately and directly. Doorinmyhouse, a person who sides with you, even references this in previous replies. So the only thing your comment here proves is that, if the Navigator uses any actual energy for destruction at all, it's not 2-B. From everything gathered from this, we have 2 different possibilities.
One, the Chrono Navigator is AP, not Hax, and does the feat through an overtime drawn out process for not immediately destroying the multiverse, making the feat unable to be scaled to anyone. Not even the Chrono Navigator itself.
Or
Two, the Chrono Navigator is Hax instead of AP, but does the feat through a chain reaction drawn out process using portals as the medium to destroy the multiverse, which also doesn't scale to anyone. Not even the Chrono Navigator itself.
No matter which point you choose, the feat doesn't scale to anyone.
>I dont see any reason not to treat is as hax, considering literally everything else the Chrono Navigator has done was hax-related. And again, destroying reality, which is a form of reality warping, is already listed as hax on this site
It's not, check our Reality Warping page. Reality destruction is simple pocket space/universe/multierse destruction. Not hax. It's AP.
And anyway, you can't have this both ways. The Navigator either uses hax or AP. If hax, then the feat doesnt scale to anyone or anything since using portals to destroy the multiverse overtime doesn't directly scale you to 2-B. And if AP, then it returns to my original point. Not only that, it strengthens my argument since even with AP, the Navigator still wouldnt be directly 2-B since it's energy didnt immediately destroy the Multiverse or even begin to destroy it.
Sorry for this being dragged out, but this is not over yet.
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>Which can, and is, wrong and can be changed. Irrelevant.
You saying it's wrong doesnt actually mean much. Prove it is.
>No, it's not. We don't even consider it as that here ourselves , so your making things up here now.
Wrong, clearly the page says that " Completely or partially erase things from existence" is a type of reality warping. Which is something both the Chrono Navigator and the CTB has been stated to be able to do. And please do give examples of reality destroyers that dont have this listed, and even if you do it would just be as said by yourself :"wrong and can be changed. Irrelevant."
You cant have it both way, you cant both say I cant use the wiki as evidence that reality destruction is hax,because the wiki is often wrong, and then use the exact same argument to say the opposite. It doesnt work that way. Either the wiki can be used to prove reality destruction is or isnt AP or it cant be used to prove/ disprove it.
>Talking about the Navigator. Not the time bomb.
So you agree the CTB works by hax and that Alien X scales to it?
>Especially when the devices you want to include here are something no Celestialsapien is ever even directly compared with.
In 99% of all cases where we powerscale, characters are scaled to characters that they are never directly compared with. Example, Android 16 is never directly compared to either Goku or Frieza, yet gets scaled to both. By your logic, he shouldnt scale to either.
> With no supporting feat?
Celestialsapiens have shown on 2 occasions to manipualte the entirety of all Ben 10 universes, so not what sure what you mean by no supporting feats? They have already shown their reality warping power covers the enitrty of the Ben 10 cosmos, and what's the point of being disrespectful then following it up with " dont take it personally" ??? If you already know you're being disrespectful to the point you have to warn me in advance that you arent (???), what's the point of saying it to me, and pretending it isn't disrespectful?? Just own up to it, it's not a big deal.
>Except that it does mean that because that is what it's generally referring to in fiction, for anything that isn't a literal omnipotent.
Literally nothing can be a literal omnipotent, and why are you using fansubs? They are not official translations, they dont mean a thing here.
The name of an attack never means anything ever, doesnt matter if the name is "omnipotent" or "Light speed blast", we dont use the name of an attack to upgrade a character ever.
> So yes King Boo is Universal, but not individually. Which is an explicit requirement for scaling a feat to someone else. There's a reason why the Low 2-C rating doesn't scale to others.
So why is he listed as being universal, if he isnt? All it means is he is a glass canon really, and that his power is far greater than anyone else, since no one has matched the power of his portals.
>Just like why any character that performs a chain reaction feat doesnt scale to said feat.
And yet Omega Shenron is listed as universal, despite only being able to destroy the universe via a chain reaction, by making negative ki cores across the universe which eventually would destroy the universe.
> A chain reaction feat doesn't scale to anything as it's indirectly separate from the power of who's doing it and it's done over a period of time.
Yet Gogeta SSJ4 scales to Omega Shenron.
You saying it's wrong doesnt actually mean much. Prove it is.
>No, it's not. We don't even consider it as that here ourselves , so your making things up here now.
Wrong, clearly the page says that " Completely or partially erase things from existence" is a type of reality warping. Which is something both the Chrono Navigator and the CTB has been stated to be able to do. And please do give examples of reality destroyers that dont have this listed, and even if you do it would just be as said by yourself :"wrong and can be changed. Irrelevant."
You cant have it both way, you cant both say I cant use the wiki as evidence that reality destruction is hax,because the wiki is often wrong, and then use the exact same argument to say the opposite. It doesnt work that way. Either the wiki can be used to prove reality destruction is or isnt AP or it cant be used to prove/ disprove it.
>Talking about the Navigator. Not the time bomb.
So you agree the CTB works by hax and that Alien X scales to it?
>Especially when the devices you want to include here are something no Celestialsapien is ever even directly compared with.
In 99% of all cases where we powerscale, characters are scaled to characters that they are never directly compared with. Example, Android 16 is never directly compared to either Goku or Frieza, yet gets scaled to both. By your logic, he shouldnt scale to either.
> With no supporting feat?
Celestialsapiens have shown on 2 occasions to manipualte the entirety of all Ben 10 universes, so not what sure what you mean by no supporting feats? They have already shown their reality warping power covers the enitrty of the Ben 10 cosmos, and what's the point of being disrespectful then following it up with " dont take it personally" ??? If you already know you're being disrespectful to the point you have to warn me in advance that you arent (???), what's the point of saying it to me, and pretending it isn't disrespectful?? Just own up to it, it's not a big deal.
>Except that it does mean that because that is what it's generally referring to in fiction, for anything that isn't a literal omnipotent.
Literally nothing can be a literal omnipotent, and why are you using fansubs? They are not official translations, they dont mean a thing here.
The name of an attack never means anything ever, doesnt matter if the name is "omnipotent" or "Light speed blast", we dont use the name of an attack to upgrade a character ever.
> So yes King Boo is Universal, but not individually. Which is an explicit requirement for scaling a feat to someone else. There's a reason why the Low 2-C rating doesn't scale to others.
So why is he listed as being universal, if he isnt? All it means is he is a glass canon really, and that his power is far greater than anyone else, since no one has matched the power of his portals.
>Just like why any character that performs a chain reaction feat doesnt scale to said feat.
And yet Omega Shenron is listed as universal, despite only being able to destroy the universe via a chain reaction, by making negative ki cores across the universe which eventually would destroy the universe.
> A chain reaction feat doesn't scale to anything as it's indirectly separate from the power of who's doing it and it's done over a period of time.
Yet Gogeta SSJ4 scales to Omega Shenron.
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>Wrong, clearly the page says that " Completely or partially erase things from existence" is a type of reality warping. Which is something both the Chrono Navigator and the CTB has been stated to be able to do.
Erasure isn't AP destruction.
>And please do give examples of reality destroyers that dont have this listed
Son Goku, Jire, Vegeta, Piccolo, Son Goha, Frieza, Kale, Caulifla, and Cabba. And I used these guys on purpose since DB specifically isnt a verse known for hax. All of these guys can destroy universes and lack any form of reality warping. Need I go on?
>You cant have it both way, you cant both say I cant use the wiki as evidence that reality destruction is hax,because the wiki is often wrong, and then use the exact same argument to say the opposite.
False equivalence, your trying to use the wikia itself to support a claim that is not remotely established here to this day. Im using the wikia to support a claim that is established here to this day.
Can something be wrong? Of course. But considering the very basic fundamentals of our tiering system sides with me, I think its clear what doesn't need to change or what isn't incorrect.
>So you agree the CTB works by hax and that Alien X scales to it?
Nope. But thats a different discussion to have all together. This is about the Navigator.
>In 99% of all cases where we powerscale, characters are scaled to characters that they are never directly compared with. Example, Android 16 is never directly compared to either Goku or Frieza, yet gets scaled to both
Horrible False Equivalency. Unlike Celestialsapiens, Andriod 16 is scaled from Goku and Frieza because of him being on the same caliber of someone who's as strong or is stronger than them, Cell. And he directly fights with him. Celestialsapiens have to rely on pure statements, that are being called out as vague, to even have a connection to the Navigator in the first place. Something they never directly or indirectly take on.
>Celestialsapiens have shown on 2 occasions to manipualte the entirety of all Ben 10 universes, so not what sure what you mean by no supporting feats?
...I hardly see how altering universes means they can suddenly do anything they want.
>They are not official translations, they dont mean a thing here.
Even if you're right, it doesn't change the actual point I made at all. Characters with god-like strength and/or abilities compared to the fodders of their respective fictional verse are called "Omnipotent", "all powerful" and "can do anything" despite it not being literally so. They are only called that because of having a godly-status. Simple as that.
>The name of an attack never means anything ever, doesnt matter if the name is "omnipotent" or "Light speed blast", we dont use the name of an attack to upgrade a character ever.'
Exactly and neither should anyone be upgraded for being arbitrarily given the "omnipotent" status either just because they are top of their verse's food chain, like other people here pointed out to you. Or being given a random nod of "being able to do anything" and suddenly have people take it literally. It's ridiculous.
>So why is he listed as being universal, if he isnt? All it means is he is a glass canon really, and that his power is far greater than anyone else, since no one has matched the power of his portals.
Thats exactly the case actually. King Boo is a glass canon. His portals are what are universal, not himself. He still gets the Low 2-C rating since his portals can destroy universes at the end of the day, but the feat doesnt scale to his individual stats. He doesn't do the feat with his own power but an alternate process to accomplish it.
This is why characters who either do feats like this, or use preparation to pull a feat off, never have their individual stats scale to the feat. It's like Kaguya Ōtsutsuki and her ETSB. The ESTB is star level once gathering enough chakra to destroy her dimensions with stars in them. But Kaguya herself is no where near that, in the 5-C territory. See what I mean?
>And yet Omega Shenron is listed as universal, despite only being able to destroy the universe via a chain reaction, by making negative ki cores across the universe which eventually would destroy the universe.
It's not a chain reaction as far as I recall. There were some huge discussions on this and it was agreed to not be that, which is why he was upgraded. Or rather he was allowed to keep his tier.
Erasure isn't AP destruction.
>And please do give examples of reality destroyers that dont have this listed
Son Goku, Jire, Vegeta, Piccolo, Son Goha, Frieza, Kale, Caulifla, and Cabba. And I used these guys on purpose since DB specifically isnt a verse known for hax. All of these guys can destroy universes and lack any form of reality warping. Need I go on?
>You cant have it both way, you cant both say I cant use the wiki as evidence that reality destruction is hax,because the wiki is often wrong, and then use the exact same argument to say the opposite.
False equivalence, your trying to use the wikia itself to support a claim that is not remotely established here to this day. Im using the wikia to support a claim that is established here to this day.
Can something be wrong? Of course. But considering the very basic fundamentals of our tiering system sides with me, I think its clear what doesn't need to change or what isn't incorrect.
>So you agree the CTB works by hax and that Alien X scales to it?
Nope. But thats a different discussion to have all together. This is about the Navigator.
>In 99% of all cases where we powerscale, characters are scaled to characters that they are never directly compared with. Example, Android 16 is never directly compared to either Goku or Frieza, yet gets scaled to both
Horrible False Equivalency. Unlike Celestialsapiens, Andriod 16 is scaled from Goku and Frieza because of him being on the same caliber of someone who's as strong or is stronger than them, Cell. And he directly fights with him. Celestialsapiens have to rely on pure statements, that are being called out as vague, to even have a connection to the Navigator in the first place. Something they never directly or indirectly take on.
>Celestialsapiens have shown on 2 occasions to manipualte the entirety of all Ben 10 universes, so not what sure what you mean by no supporting feats?
...I hardly see how altering universes means they can suddenly do anything they want.
>They are not official translations, they dont mean a thing here.
Even if you're right, it doesn't change the actual point I made at all. Characters with god-like strength and/or abilities compared to the fodders of their respective fictional verse are called "Omnipotent", "all powerful" and "can do anything" despite it not being literally so. They are only called that because of having a godly-status. Simple as that.
>The name of an attack never means anything ever, doesnt matter if the name is "omnipotent" or "Light speed blast", we dont use the name of an attack to upgrade a character ever.'
Exactly and neither should anyone be upgraded for being arbitrarily given the "omnipotent" status either just because they are top of their verse's food chain, like other people here pointed out to you. Or being given a random nod of "being able to do anything" and suddenly have people take it literally. It's ridiculous.
>So why is he listed as being universal, if he isnt? All it means is he is a glass canon really, and that his power is far greater than anyone else, since no one has matched the power of his portals.
Thats exactly the case actually. King Boo is a glass canon. His portals are what are universal, not himself. He still gets the Low 2-C rating since his portals can destroy universes at the end of the day, but the feat doesnt scale to his individual stats. He doesn't do the feat with his own power but an alternate process to accomplish it.
This is why characters who either do feats like this, or use preparation to pull a feat off, never have their individual stats scale to the feat. It's like Kaguya Ōtsutsuki and her ETSB. The ESTB is star level once gathering enough chakra to destroy her dimensions with stars in them. But Kaguya herself is no where near that, in the 5-C territory. See what I mean?
>And yet Omega Shenron is listed as universal, despite only being able to destroy the universe via a chain reaction, by making negative ki cores across the universe which eventually would destroy the universe.
It's not a chain reaction as far as I recall. There were some huge discussions on this and it was agreed to not be that, which is why he was upgraded. Or rather he was allowed to keep his tier.
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>Erasure isn't AP destruction.
No, but destroying reality = erasing it. You cant physically destroy concept.
> And I used these guys on purpose since DB specifically isnt a verse known for hax
I dont recall a universe and reality being the same thing.
>False equivalence, your trying to use the wikia itself to support a claim that is not remotely established here to this day.
It's not remotely established to this day, and yet it's on the Chrono Navigator's wiki page? okay.
>Nope. But thats a different discussion to have all together. This is about the Navigator.
Do explain how the Chronosapien Timebomb doesnt work via hax. Is existence erasure not hax either?
>Horrible False Equivalency. Unlike Celestialsapiens, Andriod 16 is scaled from Goku and Frieza because of him being on the same caliber of someone who's as strong or is stronger than them, Cell.
It's not really a false equvalency, when you said that we shouldnt scale Alien X due to him never directly getting compared with the weapons, implying you need to get directly compared to something in order to scale from something else.
>And he directly fights with him. Celestialsapiens have to rely on pure statements, that are being called out as vague, to even have a connection to the Navigator in the first place. Something they never directly or indirectly take on.
So you need to directly fight something else in order to powerscale, and not rely purely on statements? Well then, how come Sour and most of Whis siblings other than Vados, have literally 0 feats yet are scaled from Jiren, purely from statements??? They arent even at any point compared to Jiren, yet scale from him.
> ...I hardly see how altering universes means they can suddenly do anything they want.
This is a massive strawman. I already explained to you dozens of times not to take the word omnipotent literlly, this is getting really annoying. also i never said they could do anything.
> Characters with god-like strength and/or abilities compared to the fodders of their respective fictional verse are called "Omnipotent",
Care to give an example, where someone is stated to be omnipotent by credible characters and the authors of the series, yet still do not scale from every character within their series? Because if not, your point hardly matters.
>. Or being given a random nod of "being able to do anything" and suddenly have people take it literally.
By this logic the The One Above All from marvel should not scale from every being in marvel, yet he does.
>. He doesn't do the feat with his own power but an alternate process to accomplish it.
All it really mean is that King Boo and Kaguya's most powerful attack is massively above their regular durabilty and everything else within the series. This is no diffrent from Haruhi Suzumiya having multiversal power yet human durabilty. I concede on the GT argument, as I havent read the thread yet.
No, but destroying reality = erasing it. You cant physically destroy concept.
> And I used these guys on purpose since DB specifically isnt a verse known for hax
I dont recall a universe and reality being the same thing.
>False equivalence, your trying to use the wikia itself to support a claim that is not remotely established here to this day.
It's not remotely established to this day, and yet it's on the Chrono Navigator's wiki page? okay.
>Nope. But thats a different discussion to have all together. This is about the Navigator.
Do explain how the Chronosapien Timebomb doesnt work via hax. Is existence erasure not hax either?
>Horrible False Equivalency. Unlike Celestialsapiens, Andriod 16 is scaled from Goku and Frieza because of him being on the same caliber of someone who's as strong or is stronger than them, Cell.
It's not really a false equvalency, when you said that we shouldnt scale Alien X due to him never directly getting compared with the weapons, implying you need to get directly compared to something in order to scale from something else.
>And he directly fights with him. Celestialsapiens have to rely on pure statements, that are being called out as vague, to even have a connection to the Navigator in the first place. Something they never directly or indirectly take on.
So you need to directly fight something else in order to powerscale, and not rely purely on statements? Well then, how come Sour and most of Whis siblings other than Vados, have literally 0 feats yet are scaled from Jiren, purely from statements??? They arent even at any point compared to Jiren, yet scale from him.
> ...I hardly see how altering universes means they can suddenly do anything they want.
This is a massive strawman. I already explained to you dozens of times not to take the word omnipotent literlly, this is getting really annoying. also i never said they could do anything.
> Characters with god-like strength and/or abilities compared to the fodders of their respective fictional verse are called "Omnipotent",
Care to give an example, where someone is stated to be omnipotent by credible characters and the authors of the series, yet still do not scale from every character within their series? Because if not, your point hardly matters.
>. Or being given a random nod of "being able to do anything" and suddenly have people take it literally.
By this logic the The One Above All from marvel should not scale from every being in marvel, yet he does.
>. He doesn't do the feat with his own power but an alternate process to accomplish it.
All it really mean is that King Boo and Kaguya's most powerful attack is massively above their regular durabilty and everything else within the series. This is no diffrent from Haruhi Suzumiya having multiversal power yet human durabilty. I concede on the GT argument, as I havent read the thread yet.
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@Kukui to my knowledge the speed at which an infinite speed object/being destroys the multiverse is completely irrelevant and after watching it again, Eon speeds up the destruction caused by space-time manipulation via shooting out a beam of energy into the sky most likely tearing reality apart faster or bringing the universes closer to each other (he was anchoring them after all), Ben then freezes the arm of Eon so Eon can not give the Chrono Navigator the command to destroy reality further and proceeds to blast him with Clockwork after he gets free. As for why Eon did not immediately destroy reality when he wanted to, no idea, showing off maybe, just PIS, doesn't really matter because it should be infinite speed scaling from Paradox.
Quicksilver also agreed with the hax = AP thing meaning that it is an option.
Quicksilver also agreed with the hax = AP thing meaning that it is an option.
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Bump
My_area
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@Doorinmyhouse
1) Destroying reality is vague and unquantifiable,the size of reality should be clarifed in question in order to use this as a feat
2) Yes
5) Android 16 scales due to fighting with Imperfect Cell in equal grounds while 17 was getting stomped which is unlike Alien X case where he isn't directly scaled like that and is probably compared due to statements
6) Because them being angels should naturally compare themself with Whis who is massively above Beerus and angels> 2 GoDs low multiversal feat>Jiren so they scale above Jiren due to scaling with Whis and Vados and not by statements
Wouldn't comment in other points related to Ben 10 because I am not even sure anymore and wiki standards since I don't understand whats happening
1) Destroying reality is vague and unquantifiable,the size of reality should be clarifed in question in order to use this as a feat
2) Yes
5) Android 16 scales due to fighting with Imperfect Cell in equal grounds while 17 was getting stomped which is unlike Alien X case where he isn't directly scaled like that and is probably compared due to statements
6) Because them being angels should naturally compare themself with Whis who is massively above Beerus and angels> 2 GoDs low multiversal feat>Jiren so they scale above Jiren due to scaling with Whis and Vados and not by statements
Wouldn't comment in other points related to Ben 10 because I am not even sure anymore and wiki standards since I don't understand whats happening
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@MyArea Who recreates something? Eon destroys the multiverse or at least tries to...
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Wow Alien X is such an interesting character...I mean to be fair there was always about him that kept me intrigued....
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getting filled comments what could do Alien X 2-B right?
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@Doorinmyhouse
1) Reality is the size of the Ben 10 cosmos, all of reality and all of existence is mentioned to be in danger of getting destroyed. It's not vague at all, not even close. What else could all of existence imply other than the entirety of the Ben 10 cosmos?
2) Yes to what?
5) imperfect cell & 16 never fought someone who destroyed earth or was stated to be able to do so, nor did they do so themselves nor do they have statements implying they could do so.
This is no different from Alien X never getting directly scaled from the weapons. So if you're going to be consitant about powerscaling, you should not scale 16 or imperfect Cell from Frieza, yet everyone does anyway.
6) You are not making any sense, why should they "naturally compare" when was it stated that all angels are around the same level? Look, im not thying to deny Whis siblings are on his level, im just saying that going by your and Professor's arguments, they shouldnt, because they are never directly compared to Whis, Beerus, Vados etc. Your argument as for why they should scale is no diffrent from my argument for alien x. Whis siblings other than Vados have no feats or statements proving that they are> Beerus, and if I'm wrong about this, please do provide evidence.
1) Reality is the size of the Ben 10 cosmos, all of reality and all of existence is mentioned to be in danger of getting destroyed. It's not vague at all, not even close. What else could all of existence imply other than the entirety of the Ben 10 cosmos?
2) Yes to what?
5) imperfect cell & 16 never fought someone who destroyed earth or was stated to be able to do so, nor did they do so themselves nor do they have statements implying they could do so.
This is no different from Alien X never getting directly scaled from the weapons. So if you're going to be consitant about powerscaling, you should not scale 16 or imperfect Cell from Frieza, yet everyone does anyway.
6) You are not making any sense, why should they "naturally compare" when was it stated that all angels are around the same level? Look, im not thying to deny Whis siblings are on his level, im just saying that going by your and Professor's arguments, they shouldnt, because they are never directly compared to Whis, Beerus, Vados etc. Your argument as for why they should scale is no diffrent from my argument for alien x. Whis siblings other than Vados have no feats or statements proving that they are> Beerus, and if I'm wrong about this, please do provide evidence.
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@My area when did porunga recreate trunks and Goten's body? not that it would matter, because their body is not 4C without any ki, and Porunga cant recreate their soul which contains their ki. Trunks and Goten's body are human level without ki.
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1) Where is that stated? Can you please show me? Reality is just a vague term which could mean anything hence its unquantifiable feat and isn't used unless the size of it is mentioned just like how Gogeta and Broly destroying dimensions(it was called reality even)is unquantifiable feat because reality size is unknown until explictly stated
2) To reality and universe being same thing
5) They dont have to because Android 16 and Imperfect Cell has proven to be on par while imperfect Cell stomps 17 and 17 was casually able to one shot SSJ Trunks who easily sliced Mecha Frieza who is stronger than first form Frieza who is drawf star level so here they do have feats through xyz scaling which is different from Alien X and weapons case when there are only statements tying it not any powerscaling from previous so its not com9
6) It was not stated correct but both(Whis and Vados) has shown to be above GoD level easily so we can generally assume that other angels are comparable to Whis and Vados too and them being suddenly weaker than their siblings will not make sense so hence we can generally say that they scale to Whis who can oneshot Beerus and who along with Vados scales above Beerus+Champa feat while for Alien X there are only strongest statement,omnipotent,can do anything etc is stated which is only thing that ties Alien X with CTB or Chrono navigator so here we say other angels should be comparable as it will be nonsense if they dont until shown weaker but they made very less appearence so its not possible while here Alien X is not oniy being compared equally but is being compared to stronger than those devices so both are different cases
Soul shouldn't be the only thing having ki,it was stated somewhere that ki comes from mind,body and soul or something like that so he indeed needs to recreate High 4C body and give them ki and their soul wont have all that power and he recreated it wit whole Earth in Buu saga?
2) To reality and universe being same thing
5) They dont have to because Android 16 and Imperfect Cell has proven to be on par while imperfect Cell stomps 17 and 17 was casually able to one shot SSJ Trunks who easily sliced Mecha Frieza who is stronger than first form Frieza who is drawf star level so here they do have feats through xyz scaling which is different from Alien X and weapons case when there are only statements tying it not any powerscaling from previous so its not com9
6) It was not stated correct but both(Whis and Vados) has shown to be above GoD level easily so we can generally assume that other angels are comparable to Whis and Vados too and them being suddenly weaker than their siblings will not make sense so hence we can generally say that they scale to Whis who can oneshot Beerus and who along with Vados scales above Beerus+Champa feat while for Alien X there are only strongest statement,omnipotent,can do anything etc is stated which is only thing that ties Alien X with CTB or Chrono navigator so here we say other angels should be comparable as it will be nonsense if they dont until shown weaker but they made very less appearence so its not possible while here Alien X is not oniy being compared equally but is being compared to stronger than those devices so both are different cases
Soul shouldn't be the only thing having ki,it was stated somewhere that ki comes from mind,body and soul or something like that so he indeed needs to recreate High 4C body and give them ki and their soul wont have all that power and he recreated it wit whole Earth in Buu saga?
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Guys stop detailing with Dragon Ball please, I get analogies but you're basically starting a Dragon Ball CRT at this point...
As for the reality point Paradox is clear that Eon was gonna destroy all timelines, all alternate realities and all of time and causality itself, Kukui and literally everyone else also agrees with this, the issue is how the Chrono Nav does it, not what it does.
As for the reality point Paradox is clear that Eon was gonna destroy all timelines, all alternate realities and all of time and causality itself, Kukui and literally everyone else also agrees with this, the issue is how the Chrono Nav does it, not what it does.
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Bellicus and Serena are not Alien x's souls during the episode "Forge of Creation" Professor paradox said it takes years for a baby celestialsapien to develop personalites Bellicus and Serena are not souls they are just creations of celestialsapiens themselves and ben acts as a third personality and is a seperate individual proving ben is not alien x's soul.Alien X body is also not his soul since even if somehow someway the body destroyed ben and his personalites at any time can bring it back also his body can be used to carry out any task lets say make a black hole proving Alien x's body is also not his soul.
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1) read the transcript https://transcripts.fandom.com/wiki/Ben_Agai , Paradox warns eon that he will destroy all of existance if doesnt stop using the chrono navigator.
2) reality isnt a universe in the context of how paradox used it.
5) okay so if im understanding this correct, indirect powerscaling shouldnt be allowed if a character has 0 feats to support them? and yet you do so anyway with Vados siblings that are never compared to them?
7) you said it yourself, part of the ki comes from the soul, and since we dont know how much, we cant say for sure how much ki he recreated, thus cant claim he recreated their 4C bodies. also their body is not anywhere near 4C when not fully powered, hence why Goku can be harmed by stuff waay below universal when not powered up. or why Krillin can easily kill heavily supressed Vegeta..
@greenshifter im not trying to downgrade any DB characters, im just trying to understand why indrect powerscaling is allowed in DB but not ben 10.
2) reality isnt a universe in the context of how paradox used it.
5) okay so if im understanding this correct, indirect powerscaling shouldnt be allowed if a character has 0 feats to support them? and yet you do so anyway with Vados siblings that are never compared to them?
7) you said it yourself, part of the ki comes from the soul, and since we dont know how much, we cant say for sure how much ki he recreated, thus cant claim he recreated their 4C bodies. also their body is not anywhere near 4C when not fully powered, hence why Goku can be harmed by stuff waay below universal when not powered up. or why Krillin can easily kill heavily supressed Vegeta..
@greenshifter im not trying to downgrade any DB characters, im just trying to understand why indrect powerscaling is allowed in DB but not ben 10.
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@Demonicdude wrong thread but thanks for your input. Do you think Alien X has no soul at all then?
@Door Indirect powerscaling is fine, only problem could be Chrono Nav being established as a multiversal weapon in OV and not UA, but I already argued against this a long time ago.
@Door Indirect powerscaling is fine, only problem could be Chrono Nav being established as a multiversal weapon in OV and not UA, but I already argued against this a long time ago.
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@Doorinmyhouse
1) Paradox states for all existence not reality though unless both meanings are overlapping or unless reality is mentioned but I dont see it
2) Paradox ever usee reality? Reality could be anything from 0 Dimensions to Hgh Outerversal level so we need to know in what context reality is used and how large is it stated
5) No no,my point is that "power scaling"and "comparision without any power scaling" are different which is why 16 is above Planet busters because he fought Imperfect Cell who has massive scaling chain from Piccolo while Alien X is being compared to weapons but not being compared to them through scaling chain so case is completely different well we just generally assume that angels should be at level of Whis and Vados because Whis and Vados are nearly equal to so no reason to think that other angels aren't comparable to Whis and Vados and they are superior to Jiren through scaling from Whis and Vados who has scaling chain over Jiren and statement of Jiren being above GoD and not angels and we know angels>GoD while Alien X is only stated to be strongest/omnipotent/can do anything with indirect scaling from CTB and Chrono navigator though I necessarily dont disagree with this scaling
7) Part of ki comes from that true but not all of it so he has to recreate ki from mind and body so maybe not necessarily High 4-C but that would definitely put Porunga above Planet level but he isn't so same case should apply with Alien X and CTB and uh when they are off guarded their ki is lowered but the overall High 4C ki would still exists in the body as a total and Porunga has to recreate his power not only supressed too
@Greenshifter We are only discussing analogy here except the Porunga and CTB part which would warrant a upgrade for him but otherwise I promise I wont make it a DB CRT post
1) Paradox states for all existence not reality though unless both meanings are overlapping or unless reality is mentioned but I dont see it
2) Paradox ever usee reality? Reality could be anything from 0 Dimensions to Hgh Outerversal level so we need to know in what context reality is used and how large is it stated
5) No no,my point is that "power scaling"and "comparision without any power scaling" are different which is why 16 is above Planet busters because he fought Imperfect Cell who has massive scaling chain from Piccolo while Alien X is being compared to weapons but not being compared to them through scaling chain so case is completely different well we just generally assume that angels should be at level of Whis and Vados because Whis and Vados are nearly equal to so no reason to think that other angels aren't comparable to Whis and Vados and they are superior to Jiren through scaling from Whis and Vados who has scaling chain over Jiren and statement of Jiren being above GoD and not angels and we know angels>GoD while Alien X is only stated to be strongest/omnipotent/can do anything with indirect scaling from CTB and Chrono navigator though I necessarily dont disagree with this scaling
7) Part of ki comes from that true but not all of it so he has to recreate ki from mind and body so maybe not necessarily High 4-C but that would definitely put Porunga above Planet level but he isn't so same case should apply with Alien X and CTB and uh when they are off guarded their ki is lowered but the overall High 4C ki would still exists in the body as a total and Porunga has to recreate his power not only supressed too
@Greenshifter We are only discussing analogy here except the Porunga and CTB part which would warrant a upgrade for him but otherwise I promise I wont make it a DB CRT post
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1& 2) I didnt say he never uses reality, what are you talking about? The Chrono Navigator is stated to be able to destroy all of existance, which obviously would mean all of Ben 10 cosmos, i really dont get how this is confusing to you. Like, the meaning is as clear as day.
Are you really arguing that all of existance doesnt mean all of the Ben 10 cosmos???
5) you are not making any sense, you are refusing to explain why indirect scaling should be allowed sometimes but not other times. You are not being consistant. The same "massive scaling chain" that DB character benifits from, is also something ben 10 character benifitis from. All you are saying is " we scale indrectly in dragon ball because they are siblings, but we dont indirect scale in Ben 10 despite there being statements". There are no statements that imply that angels are generally at the same level, so them being siblings is irrelevant. Same reason Vegeta's brother doesnt scale to Vegeta, nor does Gohan's brother. Being a sibling does not justify any scaling, without feats or statements.
There is no statement or feat Vados's siblings benifit from, you are just using headcanon as your argument. So why cant i do the exact same thing, only instead i use actual statements?
7) i would like to know when Porunga was stated to recreate Trunks & Goten because i dont remember this happening. Secondly, again, since you dont know how much ki is from the soul, you cnt say for certain that Porunga would be above planet level, if he created trunks.
Are you really arguing that all of existance doesnt mean all of the Ben 10 cosmos???
5) you are not making any sense, you are refusing to explain why indirect scaling should be allowed sometimes but not other times. You are not being consistant. The same "massive scaling chain" that DB character benifits from, is also something ben 10 character benifitis from. All you are saying is " we scale indrectly in dragon ball because they are siblings, but we dont indirect scale in Ben 10 despite there being statements". There are no statements that imply that angels are generally at the same level, so them being siblings is irrelevant. Same reason Vegeta's brother doesnt scale to Vegeta, nor does Gohan's brother. Being a sibling does not justify any scaling, without feats or statements.
There is no statement or feat Vados's siblings benifit from, you are just using headcanon as your argument. So why cant i do the exact same thing, only instead i use actual statements?
7) i would like to know when Porunga was stated to recreate Trunks & Goten because i dont remember this happening. Secondly, again, since you dont know how much ki is from the soul, you cnt say for certain that Porunga would be above planet level, if he created trunks.
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I believe Alien X doesn't have a soul as seen in the "Forge of Creation" in the mother celestialsapin hands a baby Alien x was born in as energy orb.
My_area
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@Doorinmyhouse
1 and 2) But well destroying everything means destroying reality? Not necessarily it can be something more than whole Ben 10 cosmos or less it depends on size of reality used in question though so I don't think destroying everything=destroying reality.No I am just saying that all of existence doesn't always mean reality
5) There is no indirect scaling here,Angels are comparable to Whis and Vados by common sense since it doesn't make sense for them being suddenly weaker when Whis and Vados are nearly comparable and them scaling to Whis and Vados makes them automatic stronger than Jiren since Whis and Vados are stronger than Jiren so direct scaling would put them above Jiren.There is nothing shown that they are comparable to angels is because they haven't appeared too much just like saying that other GoDs are not comparable to Beerus and Champa,fact that Jiren is a mortal who is stated to above GoD not angels and were trainers for GoDs means they were stronger than GoDs hence has to be comparable to Whis and Vados,Vegeta and Tarble didn't have same training same with Goten and Gohan while angels train under Grand Priest and has implications that they scale.Its not head canon with reasons given and it would be head canon to say that angels aren't comparable
Direct scaling is direct comparison example is 16 case,Indirect scaling is comparison through indirect mean example is Alien X strongest statements tying with CTB and Chrono navigator.Angels siblings has sort of indirect scaling but enough evidence that they are comparable to angels or above Jiren so I never said that indrect scaling is wrong I said that both case aren't comparable hence I am even arguing with you in first case not saying that Alien X cant scale I am neutral here in this regard
7) Porunga recreated everyone and the whole Earth when Vegeta asked Dende to bring back Earth so Goten and Trunks were brought back too,reason Porunga isn't 4-B by Gohan is because Gohan body shouldn't be destroyed by Kid Buu attack since he is clearly stronger and died due to lack of oxygen clarifying just in case,I can bring a scan too if you want.Thats assuming that soul has so much ki that body has vedy less percentage of ki which there is no proof that this is the case and since soul is one aspect so it cant have all the power plus Goku was given body so he could train and get stronger in the otherworld so that means soul doesn't have all power
1 and 2) But well destroying everything means destroying reality? Not necessarily it can be something more than whole Ben 10 cosmos or less it depends on size of reality used in question though so I don't think destroying everything=destroying reality.No I am just saying that all of existence doesn't always mean reality
5) There is no indirect scaling here,Angels are comparable to Whis and Vados by common sense since it doesn't make sense for them being suddenly weaker when Whis and Vados are nearly comparable and them scaling to Whis and Vados makes them automatic stronger than Jiren since Whis and Vados are stronger than Jiren so direct scaling would put them above Jiren.There is nothing shown that they are comparable to angels is because they haven't appeared too much just like saying that other GoDs are not comparable to Beerus and Champa,fact that Jiren is a mortal who is stated to above GoD not angels and were trainers for GoDs means they were stronger than GoDs hence has to be comparable to Whis and Vados,Vegeta and Tarble didn't have same training same with Goten and Gohan while angels train under Grand Priest and has implications that they scale.Its not head canon with reasons given and it would be head canon to say that angels aren't comparable
Direct scaling is direct comparison example is 16 case,Indirect scaling is comparison through indirect mean example is Alien X strongest statements tying with CTB and Chrono navigator.Angels siblings has sort of indirect scaling but enough evidence that they are comparable to angels or above Jiren so I never said that indrect scaling is wrong I said that both case aren't comparable hence I am even arguing with you in first case not saying that Alien X cant scale I am neutral here in this regard
7) Porunga recreated everyone and the whole Earth when Vegeta asked Dende to bring back Earth so Goten and Trunks were brought back too,reason Porunga isn't 4-B by Gohan is because Gohan body shouldn't be destroyed by Kid Buu attack since he is clearly stronger and died due to lack of oxygen clarifying just in case,I can bring a scan too if you want.Thats assuming that soul has so much ki that body has vedy less percentage of ki which there is no proof that this is the case and since soul is one aspect so it cant have all the power plus Goku was given body so he could train and get stronger in the otherworld so that means soul doesn't have all power
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Well Celestialsapiens can also create souls as seen when Ben recreated the universe so that might not be the best argument.DemonicDude said:
@MyArea and Door Shut up about DB.
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They can create souls because they are higher dimensional beings who's mere dna was enough to break 5th dimensional barrier having soul and creating souls is different.
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The point is that the mother Celestalsapien could have created her kid with a soul. Also if the baby Celestialsapien still has a mind (to move and stuff) without having personalities then that also debunks the personalities being the minds of Celestialsapiens.
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There was an argument by Derrick Jay wyatt that Celestialsapiens can not survive on Anus Vladis whatever it's called it's been posted here multiple times even though it's not legitimate but it says Anus Vladis drains their life force not Souls and whose to say mother Celestialsapiens created that baby Celestialsapien with a soul they all are made by energy from Forge of Creation and during man of action blog they were asked is their any being more stronger than Celestialsapien in the the Omnitirx answer was we can not reveal that we have ideas for the future implying that an even higher dimensional being exists than Celestialsapien which would make sense for them to create forge of Creation.
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1) Dude stop this semantic game you're doing right now. The Chrono Navigator is stated to be able to destroy all of existance, end of discussion, there is nothing left to discuss. You are focusing on something completely irrelevant.
5) "common sense" is not a valid arguemnt, and stop bringin up jiren, he doesnt matter for my argument. It's also common sense that a weapon that is more powerful than another, would in fact be more powerful than another. The other Gods have statements that imply they are on the same level, angels do not. Vegeta was stronger than Tarble, even before he ever trained in his life.
7) DB characters still have their body while in heaven and hell even if it was destroyed, see Vegeta, Chautzu & Frieza for instance, so why wouldnt Goten, Trunks and Gohan? Furthermore, the dragons cant even effect someone stronger than their creator, hence why Shenron couldnt do anything to Vegeta and Nappa, so no it makes 0 sense that Porunga can recreate someone stronger than their master.
5) "common sense" is not a valid arguemnt, and stop bringin up jiren, he doesnt matter for my argument. It's also common sense that a weapon that is more powerful than another, would in fact be more powerful than another. The other Gods have statements that imply they are on the same level, angels do not. Vegeta was stronger than Tarble, even before he ever trained in his life.
7) DB characters still have their body while in heaven and hell even if it was destroyed, see Vegeta, Chautzu & Frieza for instance, so why wouldnt Goten, Trunks and Gohan? Furthermore, the dragons cant even effect someone stronger than their creator, hence why Shenron couldnt do anything to Vegeta and Nappa, so no it makes 0 sense that Porunga can recreate someone stronger than their master.
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@DemonicDude Well the default assumption on site is that beings have a soul so we need actual proof that they do not or that their soul is unreachable such as in a pocket dimension, but if a baby Celestialsapien can operate without any personalities then it must have a mind and soul seperate from those personalities also if you want to continue talking about this then I recommend we do so in this thread.
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Alien X doesn't have a mind (The place where Ben meets Bellicus and Serena is a hidden dimension) which no being can access except professor paradox why because paradox when in alien Force was sucked into the Time Portal and he explained to Ben that's how he got his powers as he begain to understand all space time itslef (Then after mastering his powers he made a treaty with Celestialsapiens) .And the treaty is mentioned in Ultimate Alien forge of Creation episode when paradox tried to get near Bellicus and Serena he changed Ben back why because That's likely in their Treaty he can not go 100 light or something years close to bellicus and Serena but can only appear and disappear from a far distance it was all part of treaty made between paradox and Celestialsapiens to further support this (Dawayne mccduffie himself said that Celestialsapiens we're fully aware of aggregor trying to kill the baby Celestialsapien but decided to wait and see) that argument was made by mccduffie and on aggregor wiki page was in links section as archive link (I can not found that link right now as it might have been moved or removed but let's say if a being tried to enter Alien X's mind (Ben , Bellicus and Serena are In a hidden dimension which of his own) so entering Alien X's mind is not possible however entering his hidden dimension is possible but only and only to those who have been granted permission by Celestialsapien themselves for example: Paradox why (cause paradox is not evil thus earning the trust of Celestialsapiens).
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@DemonicDude I replied in the thread that I linked.
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@Doorninmyhouse
1) Everyone knows that Chrono navigator can destroy all existence thats not the problem the problem is you equating reality with all of the cosmos which again reality is a vague term and could mean anything so I would need solid proof that reality=everything in Ben 10 cosmos
5) Yes common sense is the argument here,lots of things in debate is done or solved through common sense too otherwise it would lead to massive inaccurate ratings if we dont use common sense sure it shouldn't be used everywhere but its particularly handy here,Yet your argument with ProfessorKukui was about why angels siblings scale to Jiren,what statements are there for GoDs if I may ask? They are in same situation like angels. Vegeta was explictly stated to be a strong saiyan hence he wasn't send to some weak planet while Tarble was when he was young because he is weak so reasons why they aren't comparable are explictly stated here there is no reason to think that angels dont compare
When did I deny that one weapon cant be stronger than any other weapon through scaling? What I am saying is that these cases are different not that Alien X cant scale
7) Vegeta was given body later on when he wanted to come back to Earth,Chaiozu and all of them were given bodies I believe they weren't in soul form and Frieza most likely didn't have body because he couldn't come out from cacoon otherwise he would escape easily,yes they have power if they were given bodies if that was the case which we dont know and Porunga doesn't have to follow the rules of Shenron because he is a different type of dragon
@Greenshifter
I promise that these DB analogy will help in solving Ben 10 problem
By recreation I meant Alien X restoring CTB
1) Everyone knows that Chrono navigator can destroy all existence thats not the problem the problem is you equating reality with all of the cosmos which again reality is a vague term and could mean anything so I would need solid proof that reality=everything in Ben 10 cosmos
5) Yes common sense is the argument here,lots of things in debate is done or solved through common sense too otherwise it would lead to massive inaccurate ratings if we dont use common sense sure it shouldn't be used everywhere but its particularly handy here,Yet your argument with ProfessorKukui was about why angels siblings scale to Jiren,what statements are there for GoDs if I may ask? They are in same situation like angels. Vegeta was explictly stated to be a strong saiyan hence he wasn't send to some weak planet while Tarble was when he was young because he is weak so reasons why they aren't comparable are explictly stated here there is no reason to think that angels dont compare
When did I deny that one weapon cant be stronger than any other weapon through scaling? What I am saying is that these cases are different not that Alien X cant scale
7) Vegeta was given body later on when he wanted to come back to Earth,Chaiozu and all of them were given bodies I believe they weren't in soul form and Frieza most likely didn't have body because he couldn't come out from cacoon otherwise he would escape easily,yes they have power if they were given bodies if that was the case which we dont know and Porunga doesn't have to follow the rules of Shenron because he is a different type of dragon
@Greenshifter
I promise that these DB analogy will help in solving Ben 10 problem
By recreation I meant Alien X restoring CTB
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Ah we're talking CTB finally some sense. That's existence erasure tho, but Kukui doesn't want to talk about that in this thread so maybe it scales maybe it doesn't I'd just wait for Kukui's counterarguments against this if we need the scaling.
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