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About 2-B Alien X (Continued)
- Thread starter ProfessorKukui4Life
- Start date
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So there is nothing left to do here?
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No, me and Kukui are just busy, chances are we'll just make a new thread after the forum move.
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- Thread starter
- #444
>You have yet to address anything regarding the Chronosapien TimeBomb not being hax-based or anything about Servantis' statement
Because for the upteenth time, this thread is NOT about the Chronosapien TimeBomb. This thread is to discuss the Chrono Navigator. Why do I need to keep repeating this? The TimeBomb is off topic and has nothing to do with this discussion, which is why i'm not addressing it.
If you want to make a thread for the timebomb to discuss it and Servantis there, that is fine.
>All right, where is it established that there needs to be immediate destruction for a feat to be 2-B? Since when is a storm, shots of energy and multiple rifts through space-time not enough?
This is common sense. If your fear isnt immediate or done quickly, it shows you do not have the power to unleash an actual attack of that level in a single instance. This is how it works for any tier in general. If you need multiple attacks to destroy a building, you aren't truly Building level are you? Same thing for if you need to attack a planet several times to destroy it, you aren't truly planet level.
And yeah, after the forum move, we'll have to make a new thread for this. Again.
Because for the upteenth time, this thread is NOT about the Chronosapien TimeBomb. This thread is to discuss the Chrono Navigator. Why do I need to keep repeating this? The TimeBomb is off topic and has nothing to do with this discussion, which is why i'm not addressing it.
If you want to make a thread for the timebomb to discuss it and Servantis there, that is fine.
>All right, where is it established that there needs to be immediate destruction for a feat to be 2-B? Since when is a storm, shots of energy and multiple rifts through space-time not enough?
This is common sense. If your fear isnt immediate or done quickly, it shows you do not have the power to unleash an actual attack of that level in a single instance. This is how it works for any tier in general. If you need multiple attacks to destroy a building, you aren't truly Building level are you? Same thing for if you need to attack a planet several times to destroy it, you aren't truly planet level.
And yeah, after the forum move, we'll have to make a new thread for this. Again.
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>This is common sense. If your fear isnt immediate or done quickly, it shows you do not have the power to unleash an actual attack of that level in a single instance.
False equivalence, destroying thousands of universes, each being a seperated infinite 4-D area, in a long but finite amount of time is very different from destroying a finite 3-D building in a long amount of time. 4-D is infinitely above 3-D.
False equivalence, destroying thousands of universes, each being a seperated infinite 4-D area, in a long but finite amount of time is very different from destroying a finite 3-D building in a long amount of time. 4-D is infinitely above 3-D.
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The Chrono Navigator doesnt need to be used multiple times to destroy all of existance it just needs to be used once to open a timeline inside another timeline. If those timelines dont stop crossing over, all of existance will eventually be erased, even if the navigator is left alone, because having the timelines cross over detoriates the timestream.
And several characters are listed listed as universal despite either taking a long amount of time or straight up infinite amount of time to destroy the universe, so clearly it's not how it works for several tiers.
Bill Cipher is listed as universal + because his presence caused a rip in space-time leading to another dimension that eventually would destroy existence if not closed. Bill's feat is not considered a chain reaction or something that doesnt scale to his Attack Potency, several such downgrade threads have been rejected. The rip fully scales to Bill's Attack Potency.
Really not seeing how his feat is different from the Navigator's, only that Bill's range is smaller and timeframe is even longer, because Bill's rip in spacetime is open throughout several episodes. Rimuru Tempest is 2-B for creating thousands of universes over a period of "countless years"
Novel Kars & Enrico pucci literally take infinite time to reset the universe yet are still listed as low 2-C so short timeframes clearly arent required to be 2-C or above . if an ability or attack is capable of destroying the entirety of 1 or more infinite 4D area, it is listed as low 2-C or higher, no matter the timeframe. This is not the case for something beneath universal, because to be 2-C or above you need to be capable of destroying an infinite 4-D area, infinite dived by finite is still infinite. This is also why characters with creation feats can be listed as universal even if the timeframe is very very long.
Tl;dr
Bill Cipher's rift is 2-C and fully scales to his AP, the rift takes several episodes to destroy the universe I.e it does obviously not happen immediately. Rimuru Tempest is 2-B despite taking "countless years" to create thousands of universes, Enrico Pucci and Novel Kars are 2-C, yet take infinite time to destroy a universe. You dont need to destroy a universe or multiverse immediately in order to be 2-C/ 2-B, if the 4-D area is infinitely huge.
And several characters are listed listed as universal despite either taking a long amount of time or straight up infinite amount of time to destroy the universe, so clearly it's not how it works for several tiers.
Bill Cipher is listed as universal + because his presence caused a rip in space-time leading to another dimension that eventually would destroy existence if not closed. Bill's feat is not considered a chain reaction or something that doesnt scale to his Attack Potency, several such downgrade threads have been rejected. The rip fully scales to Bill's Attack Potency.
Really not seeing how his feat is different from the Navigator's, only that Bill's range is smaller and timeframe is even longer, because Bill's rip in spacetime is open throughout several episodes. Rimuru Tempest is 2-B for creating thousands of universes over a period of "countless years"
Novel Kars & Enrico pucci literally take infinite time to reset the universe yet are still listed as low 2-C so short timeframes clearly arent required to be 2-C or above . if an ability or attack is capable of destroying the entirety of 1 or more infinite 4D area, it is listed as low 2-C or higher, no matter the timeframe. This is not the case for something beneath universal, because to be 2-C or above you need to be capable of destroying an infinite 4-D area, infinite dived by finite is still infinite. This is also why characters with creation feats can be listed as universal even if the timeframe is very very long.
Tl;dr
Bill Cipher's rift is 2-C and fully scales to his AP, the rift takes several episodes to destroy the universe I.e it does obviously not happen immediately. Rimuru Tempest is 2-B despite taking "countless years" to create thousands of universes, Enrico Pucci and Novel Kars are 2-C, yet take infinite time to destroy a universe. You dont need to destroy a universe or multiverse immediately in order to be 2-C/ 2-B, if the 4-D area is infinitely huge.
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bump
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I agree with possibly 2B. (well there are some feats which are 2B so I don't think so we should completly downgrade Alien X to low-2C)
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Everyone, including ProfessorKukui and staff members, agreed Alien X is 2-B in this thread due to Servantis statement. Not possibly 2-B, but 2-B. Meaning this thread is concluded.
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Not really we still need to finish this for Paradox but not for Alien X
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That discussion is also on the thread i linked.
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The Chrono Navigator, and yes he did agree about Servantis statement. Read this post again.
All there is left is discussing is whether the Chrono Navigator is 2-B or not, but since DDM confirmed to me that timeframe dont matter at all for feats 3-A and above i dont see what's left to discuss really.
All there is left is discussing is whether the Chrono Navigator is 2-B or not, but since DDM confirmed to me that timeframe dont matter at all for feats 3-A and above i dont see what's left to discuss really.
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Alright there are far too many threads regarding the AP of Alien X lately. I think we should compress them into a single thread and close the other ones, because currently we've got 2-B and 2-A discussions going on at the same time, and this dissonance is starting to become completely counterproductive.
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- Thread starter
- #457
No, dont put words in my mouth. The only thing 2-B that I said i'd compromise with is making Alien X 2-B strictly through his existence erasure only and not scale it to his individual stats. What I don't agree with still is scaling that to 2-B all around because existence erasure =/= attack potency.Doorinmyhouse said:
And I vehemently still disagree with anything 2-B for the Chrono Navigator as well after what we discussed in the other threads you linked. This is not just because of the Navigator doing the feat in a long timeframe, it solely has to rely on a chain reaction to do the feat at all. It has to destabilize the time stream first to make the Multiverse's time fragile, and then have the Multiverse collapse upon itself because of it's time being destablized. That is absolutely not a 2-B attack you can use for scaling. Is it 2-B destruction? Sure, but its definitely not something you can scale to. So i stand by my argument that nothing scales to the Chrono Navigators feat, including the navigator itself.
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I agree with Kukui, and I think it's ridiculous that Alien X was ever upgraded to anything past Low 2-C.
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I didnt put words in your mouth, I never said a thing about individual stats, not sure why you presumed I did? You are putting my words in my mouth by saying I did.
The multiverse doesnt collapse upon itself, it ceases to exist after the Chrono Navigator destroys time + causality. Directly destroying time and causility = destroying existance, there is no indication that it is a chain reaction or anything of the sort. Destabilizing only time or destroying only time doesnt affect space, Dimension 12 and Forge of Creation are areas that exist perfectly fine despite being timeless, meaning if the Chrono Navigator only affected time then it wouldnt affect those 2 areas whatsoever, because they dont have any time.
The multiverse doesnt collapse upon itself, it ceases to exist after the Chrono Navigator destroys time + causality. Directly destroying time and causility = destroying existance, there is no indication that it is a chain reaction or anything of the sort. Destabilizing only time or destroying only time doesnt affect space, Dimension 12 and Forge of Creation are areas that exist perfectly fine despite being timeless, meaning if the Chrono Navigator only affected time then it wouldnt affect those 2 areas whatsoever, because they dont have any time.
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@Crabwhale, close the thread about Alien X' 2-B EE, and the one about the ChronoSapien TimeBomb, since everyone alerady agrees that Alien X has 2-B EE. Leave this current thread about the Navigator's rating and scaling open. The thread about 2-A Ben 10 should also remain open, it's not about Alien X' scaling but about the size of the Ben 10 cosmos.
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And this is exactly why you need one thread. Both sides are misinterpreting the other now because amidst the hundreds of messages many things are lost or forgotten.
I would be far more comfortable with closing both this and the 2-A thread and having both sides prepare for one single thread to discuss and finish this properly.
I would be far more comfortable with closing both this and the 2-A thread and having both sides prepare for one single thread to discuss and finish this properly.
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- Thread starter
- #462
Which is not a 2-B feat. The Navigator has to expllicity destablize the timestream first before it can even destroy all of time and casuality (destroying the latter isnt even a feat btw), which it does in a long timeframe.Doorinmyhouse said:
And once it then reaches that point, existence goes along with it because the fragile destablized time has been destroyed, which causes the rest of the Multiverse to be destroyed. Meaning, yes, it's destroying itself because without time, the rest of the Multiverse can't exist. And that said time becomes fragile upon it's destruction because its being destablized.
Also no, the Forge of Creation isnt timeless whatsoever. Its out of sync with time, which just means it's flow of time differs from the flow of time outside of it. This was addressed a while ago also, so I dont know where you got this headcanon from.
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I've honestly gotten lost on this thread a long time ago.
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- #464
Somewhat the same for me, but it doesnt matter because new things have come up since these discussions here that add onto why I disagree with a 2-B Chrono Navigator. It has to rely on chain reaction processes + a drawn out timeframe as well before it destroys anything.
It needs a long timeframe for it to destablize time in the Multiverse before it can even actually destroy its time, meaning it doesnt even destroy time quickly. And then, once the Multiverse's time is unstable, it has to rely on destroying the destablized time before the Multiverse can even be destroyed.
This is literally the same thing as someone being 8-C for making the beams of a building unstable before then destroying the beams before destroying the whole building.
It needs a long timeframe for it to destablize time in the Multiverse before it can even actually destroy its time, meaning it doesnt even destroy time quickly. And then, once the Multiverse's time is unstable, it has to rely on destroying the destablized time before the Multiverse can even be destroyed.
This is literally the same thing as someone being 8-C for making the beams of a building unstable before then destroying the beams before destroying the whole building.
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The flow of time also differs in LedgerDomain, which is never once refered to as out of sync with all of time, nor is it particular difficult to get into, unlike the FOC which is explictly stated to be difficult to get into because it is out of sync with all of time.
And again which you neglected to adress, Dimension 12 is also a place without time, so how come the Chrono Navigator can affect it? If all the Navigator did was destroy time, then Dimension 12 should remain perfectly fine, I dont know where you got the headcanon that the multiverse cant exist without time.
DDM already explained that timeframes dont matter for 3-A feats or 2-B feats.
@ Crabwhale I dont see why you cant have just this one and the 2-A open, and close the rest, but whatever it's your call.
And again which you neglected to adress, Dimension 12 is also a place without time, so how come the Chrono Navigator can affect it? If all the Navigator did was destroy time, then Dimension 12 should remain perfectly fine, I dont know where you got the headcanon that the multiverse cant exist without time.
DDM already explained that timeframes dont matter for 3-A feats or 2-B feats.
@ Crabwhale I dont see why you cant have just this one and the 2-A open, and close the rest, but whatever it's your call.
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- #466
And again, out of sync with time =/= time doesnt exist. 2 wholefully different things. Also, show me evidence that Dimension 12 is timeless please because this is also the first time i've ever come across that here.
Even if thats the case, Dimension 12 wouldnt remain fine because the Multiverse as a whole would collapse upon itself by having no time. The Navigator doesnt have a direct hand in destroying the multiverse, destroying it's time after destablizing it is what does it.
Even if thats the case, Dimension 12 wouldnt remain fine because the Multiverse as a whole would collapse upon itself by having no time. The Navigator doesnt have a direct hand in destroying the multiverse, destroying it's time after destablizing it is what does it.
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So what does being out of sync with all time mean exactly?
It's mentioned in episode Arrested Development. Dimension 12 has 0 time, so how exactly does the Chrono Navigator affect it if it only affects Time? Every timeline in Ben 10 are seperated, hence why destroying 1 universe doesnt affect all of them. Same reason why the No Watch Timeline was completely unaffected despite the Multiverse as a whole being erased, every timeline exist independently of each other. Destroying the time of 1 timeline, doesnt affect any other timeline. So the Chrono Navigator cant affect Dimension 12 just by destroying its time or by the destruction of every other timeline.
It's mentioned in episode Arrested Development. Dimension 12 has 0 time, so how exactly does the Chrono Navigator affect it if it only affects Time? Every timeline in Ben 10 are seperated, hence why destroying 1 universe doesnt affect all of them. Same reason why the No Watch Timeline was completely unaffected despite the Multiverse as a whole being erased, every timeline exist independently of each other. Destroying the time of 1 timeline, doesnt affect any other timeline. So the Chrono Navigator cant affect Dimension 12 just by destroying its time or by the destruction of every other timeline.
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Guys, just wait with this thread till the 2-A thread is done, there is no point in continuing this now. And there is also no point in putting everything into one thread since no-one will be able to stay on topic for more than 5 seconds.
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I'll be closing this as there is already another thread (2-A Ben 10) discussing this issue. When that one is concluded, we can re-enter this topic once more.
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