Very sorry everyone. Ive had to step off of the wikia for a little bit to focus on schoolwork that ive been behind on, so I had to step away from this for a while. I've skimmed through this and I can see a lot has been said here, including this that are off-topic. So I will reply to stuff that I think directly responds to my OP.
Rebuttals
>If you watch the clip and see the changing camera angles, the clip shows that each white circle and dot are other universes. Why would a map of infinitely branching timelines show random stars or galaxies in the background? There's not just 20-ish universes in the clip.
You act like space isn't apart of a map that shows something on a cosmic scale. Just because the map is being used to explain the branching timelines to Ben does not mean that each random dot is suddenly a random universe. In fact, let me ask you this then. If those dots in the background suddenly meant they were other universes, why would Paradox's map present to ben different earths? That would be pretty uneccessary to show if the map was already depicting alternate realities in the way you argue it is. Even if it's a possibility, it's
not outright prove to be the case here and we need concrete evidence of this being such. Not pure speculation.
>We are talking about the Chrono Navigator here. All it does are very powerful hax which give it the AP rating. Dimensional Travel, Time Travel, Time Manipulation, Multiverse Travel, Reality Destruction (Reality Warping). In what way has the Chrono Navigator ever done something not through said listed abilities.
Again, stop taking one thing and equating it to something entirely different. The Chrono Navigator has those haxes because of it's control over universes and timelines. Flat out destroying the Multiverse is a completely different feat. With the logic you guys are using here, you might as well argue that any character with a plethora of hax abilities is only rated a certain tier through those hax abilities instead of raw power. And that is also very incorrect.
You can have hax abilities and do feats through destructive power, like many of our characters are rated here to do. I don't see how this is difficult to understand.
>The root that I'm trying to get at is the belief that the Celestialsapiens's "greatest" and "Omnipotent" power that "can do anything" is limited to just Reality Warping and is below the Chrono Navigator. "Omnipotent" and "can do anything" has been accepted as being the strongest in the verse and doing any feat portrayed in the series.
...This is absolutely not true.
First of all, just because it was accepted before doesn't mean its correct, things are always subject to change here and this is no different. Second of all, this is like the 10th time I had to explain this. "Omnipotence" and "can do anything" are nothing but incredibly vague claims that have no context behind them as to what they constitute, especially the former. When someone is claimed to be "Omnipotent", it literally only means that they have a god-like power at their disposal. Even if you wanted to argue this had any actual importance here, "Omnipotence" still doesn't automatically equal raw strength. It can be either that or a hax ability that works on a scale far above the norms of their respective universe without actually being stronger than them.
"Omnipotence" and "Can do anything" are as vague as they can get without any defined context surrounding the claims. People need to stop repeating this argument until something new comes along with it.
>Azmuth says that they can do anything, and Paradox calls them Omnipotent in Ultimate Alien. Ben Again in Omniverse airs, and the Chrono Navigator shows being able to destroy the Multiverse. Viewers wonder if Celestialsapiens are still considered Omnipotent, so they ask. Matt Wayne once again states that they are omnipotent and that they can do anything. Again, Omnipotence and doing anything refers to the above context. Therefore, he is saying that Celestialsapiens can do what the Chrono Navigator does.
This is also very wrong. See above for the entire "omnipotence" bit of your argument. And even then, just because Celestialsapiens are still claimed to be omnipotent while the series shows a Multiverse ending weapon does not at all mean Celestialsapiens can do anything the weapon can. Celestialsapiens and the Chrono Navigator are never even directly compared to each other in the first place. You are taking 2 entirely different things and assuming they are put in the same boat as each other all because of a vague claim that has no context. And that is just, no offense, wank.
>I think that the interpretation that all of the references of the Celestialsapiens as the greatest power in the universe would only refer to their versatility/hax, and not their attack potencies, seems like unreliable headcanon/speculation/interpretation.
Im sorry Ant, but how is making this argument going off of headcanon exactly? We have 3 statements in series by itself that support the idea of Celestialsapiens only being known for their abilities as "the greatest power in the universe". As well as the fact that what Celestialsapiens are mostly known for, altering universes, is also a hax ability. And even then, like the Everlasting pointed out, Celestialsapiens are able to rewrite universal concepts, which would certainly fall under being "the greatest power" when no one else in the verse is even remotely capable of this.
Like I said before, Ever and I are fine with keeping "Possibly 2-B", but my main points here aren't headcanon. If anything, arguing "greatest power equals attack potency" is whats headcanon here when it has little to no support.
>All the earths Paradox showed represent 1 timeline each/ a paralel universe, and clearly there are more than 1000 earths.
Again, based off what? You haven't answered this.
>It doesnt say that anywere on that page, and even goes as far to say that it's impossible to quantify the diffreence between universal+ and multiversal. Feel free to quote the part that says otherwise.
First of all, "impossible to quantify the difference" has nothing to do with this. Thats literally just pointing out that Low 2-C and 2-B have no quantifiable difference between each other. As in, there is a difference but its unknown numerically.
Second of all,
we have already had conversions in the past on why creating/destroying universal-multiversal space-time continuums blatantly counts as an attack potency feat that is still applied here to this day. I don't know why you keep trying to push this idea that Low 2-C and higher tiers are not based on attack potency, but that is blatantly false. And the number of tier 2 characters here that are rated as such should already tell you this. Unless:
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Arceus
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The Creation Trio
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Zen'ō
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Demigra
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Dimentio
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Sailor Moon (Character)
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Hades (Saint Seiya)
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Solaris
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Time Eater
and every other tier 2 character here are now suddenly tier 2 with only hax abilities...
Im sorry, but this is starting to come off as nothing but a desperate counter argument if you have to actually argue against the basic fundamentals of our tiering system to defend Alien X's rating.
>If the Chrono Navigator and CTB use hacks to destroy multiple timelines and Alien X has greater hacks, then they would still be 2-B, and Alien X would still scale.
No, he wouldn't. Because not only do the Chrono Navigator and CTB not do their destructive feats with hax, you would have to prove that Celestialsapiens can actually use their reality warping/space-time manipulation for combat purposes rather than just being pure abilities. The only thing we know they can do is make things reality with thoughts and rewrite the very nature of space and time.
And rewritting universal concepts is surely considered to be an "absolute power" like I said before, which perfectly falls under "the greatest power" in their universe.
>while the Chrono Navigator is about to destoy all of existence , portals from the past are opening on Earth in the present.
I figured this would be brought up. And no, this still doesn't mean the Navigator is using hax to destroy the Multiverse instead of Attack Potency. If anything, hax or otherwise, you guys are actually making things worse for yourselves since arguing Eon destroying existence with portals is implying The Navigator isn't even 2-B flat out but only 2-B through
chain reaction processes by using those portals to other dimensions as the key to destroying them through a process.
King Boo from Super Mario has a similar rating to this for example where he is Low 2-C when creating Paranormal Portals, which would destroy the Super Mario Bros universe if its not closed. And as you can see, Low 2-C is clearly not scaled to Boo's individual stats, it's its own separate tier.
So even if your point about this is true, its a hax feat that not even the Chrono Navigator itself would scale to. It would just be a chain reaction feat.
>Also some sort of vortex start appearing.
I dont see how creating vortex with lightning bolts is suddenly not representing an AP feat. But assuming im wrong here anyway, you would have to choose between 2 things.
Either the Navigator uses pure AP to destroy the Multiverse, which means it wouldnt scale to Celestialsapiens. OR, the Navigator does use hax but with a chain reaction feat through portals, which still wouldn't scale to Alien X. Especially since the Navigator itself wouldn't scale to it and the fact that Alien X has never used portals to even remotely destroy anything on a large scale.
>Honestly how is the "being the greatest power" statement being ******* treated as not AP? It's a plain, fully understandable, no-nonsense statement that nothing directly contradicts in the entire series.
Because it's not a "plain, fully understandable, no-nonsense statement"? Context literally suggests the opposite here? Re-read the OP and you'll see my point about this.
Again, "greatest power in the universe" cannot be assumed to be talking about AP automatically if different context is presented to challenge that interpretation. Default assumption or not. If you disagree with this, that only means the burden of proof grows even bigger for you to prove it means attack potency. Context matters for a reason.
