About 2-B Alien X (Continued)

[Doorinmyhouse]

@Greenshifter in the last episode of Omniverse episode " A new Dawn", we are shown that neither time or space exists before the Anihilaargh detonates. Ben and Rook chase Maltruent to the beginning of time, it's even shown that Maltruent is unable to use his time powers because time doesnt exist at that point. Teh Anihilaargh creates time and space, so it makes perfect sense that it can destroy both as well.

And again I never claimed the timebomb destroyed casuality, you are right, that didnt happen. Im saying Eon almost accidentally destroyed casuality with the Chrono Navigator, a different weapon altogether.

 

[Greenshifter]

@Door agreed but characters like God (Lucifer TV Series) don't get conceptual manipulation for creating the universe so the Anihilaarg wouldn't get it either. Erasing space-time tho sure but that's not conceptually erasing.

Chrono Navigator is in the same boat but maybe it can get causality manipulation for destroying causality.

I misunderstood your Vilgax reference and indeed destroying timelines does not equal destroying causality.

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

@Greenshifter okay maybe lets just ignore the conceptual bit for now, but still, creating and destroying an universe and its time is considered hax, which was my main point. It even has reality warping as one of its abilities on its profile page.

And yea Chrono Naviagor should have causality manipalation, and it also has reality destruction i.e reality warping listed as one of its abilities. So its multiversal power was already listed as hax.

Ben 10 has 2 multiversal weapon that we know for a fact work entirely on hax yet are considered less hax than Alien X/ The Omnitrix. Meaning even if the "most powerful" statement was regarding hax only, Alien X should still scale to both weapons.

 

[Greenshifter]

Yes I'll TLDR all this later and get some staff input.

 

[Greenshifter]

Summary:

The Anihilaarg and Chronosapien Time Bomb get existence erasure based on Firestorm's summary (8 messages above this one) and every Celestialsapien gets a resistance to existence erasure based on Alien X being unaffected by the Anihilaarg's existence erasure.

The Anihilaarg, CTB and Chrono Navigator work via hax as detailed in Firestorm's summary which scales to their AP.

Based on Paradox stating that the Forge of Creation is the universe's greatest power, every Celestialsapien scales above the Chrono Navigator which is 2B, independent of whether the statement refers to hax (the method used for the destruction) or AP (the destruction itself/the energy needed for the destruction).

The Chrono Navigator could get causality manipulation based on Paradox stating that in anyone's hand but him, it could destroy all of time and causality itself.

Thus the only thing going for a downgrade to at least Low 2-C, likely/possibly 2B is Paradox's strongest power statement being made in Ultimate Alien while the Chrono Navigator is only established as a 2B-device in Omniverse. I will however post my rebuttal to this under this message.

 

[Greenshifter]

My rebuttal to the timing of the greatest power statement:

First of all: we do not assume something to be retconned unless it is explicitly shown.

Second of all: the statement was only made only 2 years before the Chrono Navigator was established as a 2B-device which is not that long.

Third of all: Kukui stated this:

It's like how Anti-Monitor fought a guy who would be established as a 5-Dimensional Imp years after the story happened so it was clearly not the intent when writing, and we don't use it as a result.

DC however is way more inconsistent than Ben 10, has multiple independent writers, while Man Of Action is always involved in Ben 10 and the time gap is presumably less than this DC case.

Fourth of all: Man Of Action does think about the destructive capabilities of whatever device Paradox made as seen here, his entropy pump that he made back in the 50's could destroy reality for a distance of several lightyears. The Chrono Navigator was made at least 100000 years after this and after he gained complete understanding of the space-time continuum and this was all established in AF and UA, so the Chrono Navigator being a 2B-device in Omniverse is only a logical extension from this.

Fifth of all:

From the episode "Paradox":

Ben: You save the world dozens of times.

Paradox: Hundreds, actually. In fact, on one occasion, you and I worked together to save the entire univ-- never mind. It should be here any -- [loud rumbling] You could set your watch by it.

Ben and Paradox working together to save the entire universe (well actually multiverse or more) happened in Ben Again, which is the episode when the Chrono Navigator is established as a 2B-device.

TLDR; Alien X should stay at 2B, if my rebuttal is not convincing enough then I am fine with at least Low-2C, likely 2B.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm fine with P2

 

[Greenshifter]

@Dragon could you specify whether you prefer a likely or a possibly and if it's based on Kukui's hax argument or the timing of the statement (because all universal/multiversal weapons would become hax-based and thus Alien X would still scale above them)?

Changing nothing is also an option btw.

 

[Badrimoine2019]

My rebuttal to the timing of the greatest power statement:

First of all: we do not assume something to be retconned unless it is explicitly shown.

Second of all: the statement was only made only 2 years before the Chrono Navigator was established as a 2B-device which is not that long.

Third of all: Kukui stated this:

It's like how Anti-Monitor fought a guy who would be established as a 5-Dimensional Imp years after the story happened so it was clearly not the intent when writing, and we don't use it as a result.

DC however is way more inconsistent than Ben 10, has multiple independent writers, while Man Of Action is always involved in Ben 10 and the time gap is presumably less than this DC case.

Fourth of all: Man Of Action does think about the destructive capabilities of whatever device Paradox made as seen here, his entropy pump that he made back in the 50's could destroy reality for a distance of several lightyears. The Chrono Navigator was made at least 100000 years after this and after he gained complete understanding of the space-time continuum and this was all established in AF and UA, so the Chrono Navigator being a 2B-device in Omniverse is only a logical extension from this.

Fifth of all:

From the episode "Paradox":

Ben: You save the world dozens of times.

Paradox: Hundreds, actually. In fact, on one occasion, you and I worked together to save the entire univ-- never mind. It should be here any -- [loud rumbling] You could set your watch by it.

Ben and Paradox working together to save the entire universe (well actually multiverse or more) happened in Ben Again, which is the episode when the Chrono Navigator is established as a 2B-device.

TLDR; Alien X should stay at 2B, if my rebuttal is not convincing enough then I am fine with at least Low-2C, likely 2B.

lol someone must be dumb to put alien x at low 2-c and no he is even higher than 2-B even the creator confirmed that alien x is a extra dimensional beigin and he is not bound by dimentions alien x is easily 5D+ or even more lol

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

@DarkDragon Professor's argument that "greatest power " doesnt refer to attack potency but only hax, doesnt matter, because both the Chrono Navigator and the CTB are considered inferior to Alien X and only uses hax to destroy the multiverse, thus Alien X should scale even if the statements regarding the "greatest power in the universe" only refer to hax.

@Greenshifter In the episode after Eon almost destroys all of reality, Max states the omnitrix is the most powerful weapon in the universe. Max was also present when Eon was tearing reality apart.

 

[Greenshifter]

@Door Max doesn't remember the events of "Ben Again" tho sadly enough because everyone's memory (probably not Paradox's) got erased at the end of the episode, also Max's universe might actually mean universe and not multiverse because he is not as knowledgeable as Paradox.

 

[Crabwhale]

Honestly how is the "being the greatest power" statement being ******* treated as not AP? It's a plain, fully understandable, no-nonsense statement that nothing directly contradicts in the entire series.

Not once is Alien X ever shown to struggle with any given task the moment he is out, the one exception being other Celestialsapiens.

Reality warping when done to such a massive extent absolutely should count as AP, and if his reality warping is stated to be a greater power than any, even the Chrono Navigator, then he is qualitatively superior to it's capabilities, PERIOD. This isn't wiki policy, this is just basic logic.

Unless for special, EXTREMELY specific circumstances, you can't have something be called more powerful than something else in regards to how they can affect the world and have said thing then be argued to NOT be as powerful.

 

[Firestorm808]

@DarkDragonMedeus

Thank you for replying. Can you elaborate on that? Considering the lack of retcons and the consistancy of the statements, the evidense points to Celestialsapiens to being a solid 2-B. What's keeping you from agreeing to a solid rating?

@Crabwhale

Thank you for your input.

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

@Greenshifter yea you're right about that, But Celesitalsapiens are also stated to be omnipotent even in Omniverse, by a Galvan nonetheless.

@Crabwhale I agree , furhtermore the Chrono Navigator being stated to be able to destroy all of reality, is the reason why it has "Reality destruction" on its wiki page. Reality destruction is a type of reality warping, so it doesnt matter if greatest power refers to "attack potency" or "hax", Alien X still scales..

 

[Cropfist]

I agree with crabwhale.

 

[Badrimoine2019]

@Greenshifter yea you're right about that, But Celesitalsapiens are also stated to be omnipotent even in Omniverse, by a Galvan nonetheless.

@Crabwhale I agree , furhtermore the Chrono Navigator being stated to be able to destroy all of reality, is the reason why it has "Reality destruction" on its wiki page. Reality destruction is a type of reality warping, so it doesnt matter if greatest power refers to "attack potency" or "hax", Alien X still scales..

well celestialsapiens are stated to be omnipotent but they are not truly omnipotent. They are nigh omnipotent

 

[Badrimoine2019]

.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

@Firestorm, I thought the compromise I agreed with was At least Low 2-C, possibly 2-B based on what Andy proposed. I just personally thought he made the most sense, didn't quite have enough time to go over the entire thread.

 

[Badrimoine2019]

@Firestorm, I thought the compromise I agreed with was At least Low 2-C, possibly 2-B based on what Andy proposed. I just personally thought he made the most sense, didn't quite have enough time to go over the entire thread.

he is not low 2-c i don't know why you guys keep only talking about the chrono navigator or the chronosaipian time bomb while alien x showed better feats than that lol 0and alien x should be higher than 2-B lol

 

[Firestorm808]

@DarkDragonMedeus

According to your replies on the thread, you thought Andy's reasoning for the 2-B rating made sense, but it wasn't until much later that Andy mentioned a possible compromise.

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3504047

 

[Greenshifter]

he is not low 2-c i don't know why you guys keep only talking about the chrono navigator or the chronosaipian time bomb while alien x showed better feats than that lol 0and alien x should be higher than 2-B lol

Because this thread is only about scaling to the Chrono Navigator and because neither the Contemelia, nor the Naljians are accepted as higher-dimensional beings on this site due to lack of feats, making scaling to the Chrono Navigator his best feat.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Very sorry everyone. Ive had to step off of the wikia for a little bit to focus on schoolwork that ive been behind on, so I had to step away from this for a while. I've skimmed through this and I can see a lot has been said here, including this that are off-topic. So I will reply to stuff that I think directly responds to my OP.

Rebuttals
>If you watch the clip and see the changing camera angles, the clip shows that each white circle and dot are other universes. Why would a map of infinitely branching timelines show random stars or galaxies in the background? There's not just 20-ish universes in the clip.

You act like space isn't apart of a map that shows something on a cosmic scale. Just because the map is being used to explain the branching timelines to Ben does not mean that each random dot is suddenly a random universe. In fact, let me ask you this then. If those dots in the background suddenly meant they were other universes, why would Paradox's map present to ben different earths? That would be pretty uneccessary to show if the map was already depicting alternate realities in the way you argue it is. Even if it's a possibility, it's not outright prove to be the case here and we need concrete evidence of this being such. Not pure speculation.

>We are talking about the Chrono Navigator here. All it does are very powerful hax which give it the AP rating. Dimensional Travel, Time Travel, Time Manipulation, Multiverse Travel, Reality Destruction (Reality Warping). In what way has the Chrono Navigator ever done something not through said listed abilities.

Again, stop taking one thing and equating it to something entirely different. The Chrono Navigator has those haxes because of it's control over universes and timelines. Flat out destroying the Multiverse is a completely different feat. With the logic you guys are using here, you might as well argue that any character with a plethora of hax abilities is only rated a certain tier through those hax abilities instead of raw power. And that is also very incorrect.

You can have hax abilities and do feats through destructive power, like many of our characters are rated here to do. I don't see how this is difficult to understand.

>The root that I'm trying to get at is the belief that the Celestialsapiens's "greatest" and "Omnipotent" power that "can do anything" is limited to just Reality Warping and is below the Chrono Navigator. "Omnipotent" and "can do anything" has been accepted as being the strongest in the verse and doing any feat portrayed in the series.

...This is absolutely not true.

First of all, just because it was accepted before doesn't mean its correct, things are always subject to change here and this is no different. Second of all, this is like the 10th time I had to explain this. "Omnipotence" and "can do anything" are nothing but incredibly vague claims that have no context behind them as to what they constitute, especially the former. When someone is claimed to be "Omnipotent", it literally only means that they have a god-like power at their disposal. Even if you wanted to argue this had any actual importance here, "Omnipotence" still doesn't automatically equal raw strength. It can be either that or a hax ability that works on a scale far above the norms of their respective universe without actually being stronger than them.

"Omnipotence" and "Can do anything" are as vague as they can get without any defined context surrounding the claims. People need to stop repeating this argument until something new comes along with it.

>Azmuth says that they can do anything, and Paradox calls them Omnipotent in Ultimate Alien. Ben Again in Omniverse airs, and the Chrono Navigator shows being able to destroy the Multiverse. Viewers wonder if Celestialsapiens are still considered Omnipotent, so they ask. Matt Wayne once again states that they are omnipotent and that they can do anything. Again, Omnipotence and doing anything refers to the above context. Therefore, he is saying that Celestialsapiens can do what the Chrono Navigator does.

This is also very wrong. See above for the entire "omnipotence" bit of your argument. And even then, just because Celestialsapiens are still claimed to be omnipotent while the series shows a Multiverse ending weapon does not at all mean Celestialsapiens can do anything the weapon can. Celestialsapiens and the Chrono Navigator are never even directly compared to each other in the first place. You are taking 2 entirely different things and assuming they are put in the same boat as each other all because of a vague claim that has no context. And that is just, no offense, wank.

>I think that the interpretation that all of the references of the Celestialsapiens as the greatest power in the universe would only refer to their versatility/hax, and not their attack potencies, seems like unreliable headcanon/speculation/interpretation.

Im sorry Ant, but how is making this argument going off of headcanon exactly? We have 3 statements in series by itself that support the idea of Celestialsapiens only being known for their abilities as "the greatest power in the universe". As well as the fact that what Celestialsapiens are mostly known for, altering universes, is also a hax ability. And even then, like the Everlasting pointed out, Celestialsapiens are able to rewrite universal concepts, which would certainly fall under being "the greatest power" when no one else in the verse is even remotely capable of this.

Like I said before, Ever and I are fine with keeping "Possibly 2-B", but my main points here aren't headcanon. If anything, arguing "greatest power equals attack potency" is whats headcanon here when it has little to no support.

>All the earths Paradox showed represent 1 timeline each/ a paralel universe, and clearly there are more than 1000 earths.

Again, based off what? You haven't answered this.

>It doesnt say that anywere on that page, and even goes as far to say that it's impossible to quantify the diffreence between universal+ and multiversal. Feel free to quote the part that says otherwise.

First of all, "impossible to quantify the difference" has nothing to do with this. Thats literally just pointing out that Low 2-C and 2-B have no quantifiable difference between each other. As in, there is a difference but its unknown numerically.

Second of all, we have already had conversions in the past on why creating/destroying universal-multiversal space-time continuums blatantly counts as an attack potency feat that is still applied here to this day. I don't know why you keep trying to push this idea that Low 2-C and higher tiers are not based on attack potency, but that is blatantly false. And the number of tier 2 characters here that are rated as such should already tell you this. Unless:

-Arceus


-The Creation Trio


-Zen'ō


-Demigra


-Dimentio


-Sailor Moon (Character)


-Hades (Saint Seiya)


-Solaris


-Time Eater

and every other tier 2 character here are now suddenly tier 2 with only hax abilities...

Im sorry, but this is starting to come off as nothing but a desperate counter argument if you have to actually argue against the basic fundamentals of our tiering system to defend Alien X's rating.

>If the Chrono Navigator and CTB use hacks to destroy multiple timelines and Alien X has greater hacks, then they would still be 2-B, and Alien X would still scale.

No, he wouldn't. Because not only do the Chrono Navigator and CTB not do their destructive feats with hax, you would have to prove that Celestialsapiens can actually use their reality warping/space-time manipulation for combat purposes rather than just being pure abilities. The only thing we know they can do is make things reality with thoughts and rewrite the very nature of space and time.

And rewritting universal concepts is surely considered to be an "absolute power" like I said before, which perfectly falls under "the greatest power" in their universe.

>while the Chrono Navigator is about to destoy all of existence , portals from the past are opening on Earth in the present.

I figured this would be brought up. And no, this still doesn't mean the Navigator is using hax to destroy the Multiverse instead of Attack Potency. If anything, hax or otherwise, you guys are actually making things worse for yourselves since arguing Eon destroying existence with portals is implying The Navigator isn't even 2-B flat out but only 2-B through chain reaction processes by using those portals to other dimensions as the key to destroying them through a process.

King Boo from Super Mario has a similar rating to this for example where he is Low 2-C when creating Paranormal Portals, which would destroy the Super Mario Bros universe if its not closed. And as you can see, Low 2-C is clearly not scaled to Boo's individual stats, it's its own separate tier.

So even if your point about this is true, its a hax feat that not even the Chrono Navigator itself would scale to. It would just be a chain reaction feat.

>Also some sort of vortex start appearing.

I dont see how creating vortex with lightning bolts is suddenly not representing an AP feat. But assuming im wrong here anyway, you would have to choose between 2 things.

Either the Navigator uses pure AP to destroy the Multiverse, which means it wouldnt scale to Celestialsapiens. OR, the Navigator does use hax but with a chain reaction feat through portals, which still wouldn't scale to Alien X. Especially since the Navigator itself wouldn't scale to it and the fact that Alien X has never used portals to even remotely destroy anything on a large scale.

>Honestly how is the "being the greatest power" statement being ******* treated as not AP? It's a plain, fully understandable, no-nonsense statement that nothing directly contradicts in the entire series.

Because it's not a "plain, fully understandable, no-nonsense statement"? Context literally suggests the opposite here? Re-read the OP and you'll see my point about this.

Again, "greatest power in the universe" cannot be assumed to be talking about AP automatically if different context is presented to challenge that interpretation. Default assumption or not. If you disagree with this, that only means the burden of proof grows even bigger for you to prove it means attack potency. Context matters for a reason.

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

->

No, he wouldn't. Because not only do the Chrono Navigator and CTB not do their destructive feats with hax, you would have to prove that Celestialsapiens can actually use their reality warping/space-time manipulation for combat purposes rather than just being pure abilities. The only thing we know they can do is make things reality with thoughts and rewrite the very nature of space and time.

And rewritting universal concepts is surely considered to be an "absolute power" like I said before, which perfectly falls under "the greatest power" in their universe.

Yes they do use hax, it's even mentioned on ther wiki page. Reality destruction is another form of reality warping, time and space manipulation is a sub-ability of reality warping. The Chronosapien Timebomb uses time and spatial manipulation to destroy the timelines, which are obviously both hax abilities.

And again, the Celestialsapiens have been stated to be able to do anything, why you arbtirarily decide that being able to replicate the feats of both weapons isnt included in the word "anything" is beyond me. How is "anything" vague? Omnipotent does not mean " god-like", it means "unlimted power" or " able to do anything", and since we cant assume antyhing beyond what has been shown in the series, the most logical reasoning would be that the character is limited to what has been shown in the series.

>"The Navigator isn't even 2-B flat out but only 2-B through chain reaction processes by using those portals to other dimensions as the key to destroying them through a process."

No, not really. How does opening portals have anything to do with chain reaction??? It's still the weapon making said portals, if said portals it makes destroys reality, it doesnt change the fact that the Chrono Navigator is the one destryoing all of reality. King Boo is still listed as universal, it's just that he cant exactly use the portals without killing himself, but it doesnt change the fact that he is universal.


How would the Chrono Navigator not scale to something it itself makes? The Chrono Navigator is the weapon that is able to destroy reality, destroy time and causality, since the weapon is shown to make portals to other timelines as it is destroying causality, it's ridicolous to then baselessly assume that the Chrono Navigator uses AP and not hax to destroy reality. We have no indication of it doing so with AP, the burden of proof is on you when the context of the episode tells us otherwise.


>"I dont see how creating vortex with lightning bolts is suddenly not representing an AP feat. But assuming im wrong here anyway, you would have to choose between 2 things."

Because said vortex are portals into other timelines, which is not something you can do with AP. Prove that it uses AP, when the weapon has never shown to use AP.

 

[Firestorm808]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_Y-oTV9LtU

https://imgur.com/a/NnfNB0C

>You act like space isn't apart of a map that shows something on a cosmic scale. Just because the map is being used to explain the branching timelines to Ben does not mean that each random dot is suddenly a random universe. In fact, let me ask you this then. If those dots in the background suddenly meant they were other universes, why would Paradox's map present to ben different earths? That would be pretty uneccessary to show if the map was already depicting alternate realities in the way you argue it is. Even if it's a possibility, it's not outright proven to be the case here and we need concrete evidence of this being such. Not pure speculation.

I was always saying that each image of Earth is an alternate timeline. Said circles in the backround of the map are also Earths representing alternate timelines. If the Earths shown up close and in front of them show no other objects between them. There is no reason to believe there are is anything other than Earths behind them.

It's headcanon to say that there are stars in the background of the map. There is no basis for that inference.

 

[Firestorm808]

>This is also very wrong. See above for the entire "omnipotence" bit of your argument. And even then, just because Celestialsapiens are still claimed to be omnipotent while the series shows a Multiverse ending weapon does not at all mean Celestialsapiens can do anything the weapon can. Celestialsapiens and the Chrono Navigator are never even directly compared to each other in the first place. You are taking 2 entirely different things and assuming they are put in the same boat as each other all because of a vague claim that has no context. And that is just, no offense, wank.

The source material and the writers consistently refer to Celestialsapiens as the strongest knowing that the Chrono Navigator exists. There are no retcons or counter statements to them being the strongest.

>Im sorry Ant, but how is making this argument going off of headcanon exactly? We have 3 statements in series by itself that support the idea of Celestialsapiens only being known for their abilities as "the greatest power in the universe". As well as the fact that what Celestialsapiens are mostly known for, altering universes, is also a hax ability. And even then, like the Everlasting pointed out, Celestialsapiens are able to rewrite universal concepts, which would certainly fall under being "the greatest power" when no one else in the verse is even remotely capable of this.

Like I said before, Ever and I are fine with keeping "Possibly 2-B", but my main points here aren't headcanon. If anything, arguing "greatest power equals attack potency" is whats headcanon here when it has little to no support.

There is no evidense to suggest that Celestialsapien's power is only limited by hacks. It can incude hacks, yes, but how is it limited to only that?

You do realize you arguing that a being consistantly stated to have the greatest power and Omnipotent by the writers and the source material is still weaker than an object that is always held by a person who said Celestialsapiens are the greatest power and omnipotent..

 

[Peter_"Quicksilver"_Maximoff]

I'm honestly siding with Firestorm and the supporters of 2-B tbh.

 

[DragonicDoom]

@ProfessorKukui4Life

Overall, while I do side with the 2-B gang, I do understand some of your points. Like, yeah Door's insistence that omnipotence and "can do anything" aren't vague is getting a little old. Once again, Alien X cannot be Tier-0, i.e omnipotent/nigh-omnipotent, because he is bound by the 17/26 spatio-temporal dimensions of the Ben 10 verse which was confirmed by a Man of Action statement saying that when a dimensional reboot occurs "all beings are inside the experience, not outside of it" in direct response to a question involving Alien X. The fact he is bound by dimensions prevents anything even close to omnipotent status.

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

@DragonicDoom for the last goddamn time, a true omnipotent character CANNOT exist in any shape or form, you CANNOT apply the word literally. A true omnipotent character would NOT be Tier-0, they would be Tier minus infinity. It's not possible for any character to be truly omnipotent. And do explain how the word is vague, what do you mean by vague exactly?

"Can do anything / omnipotent" obviously means that he can do anything/ is omnipotent, but is also obviously limited to what has been shown in the series. We cant assume he can do anything that hasnt already been shown in Ben 10, that would be a no-limits fallacy.

It's repeatedly emphasized throughout the series that there are no limits to what Alien X can do, what exactly is vague about that? It's no less vague that other fictional characters being stated to have limitless speed/ strength/ weight etc.

 

[DragonicDoom]

@Door

Omnipotence as a word used in fiction is vague due to its incorrect use by people who are either incredibly prideful about their own abilities, or people who are so weak in comparison to the character that they believe them to be omnipotent. As I've said before, Darkseid, Old King Thanos and Buuhan have called themselves omnipotent because they have huge egos. An example of weak beings overestimating stronger beings is the MCU Asgardians. Early humans called them gods who used magic, but we know they're just a very powerful, highly advanced civilisation. They may be powerful but they certainly aren't gods. It's less that the word itself is vague, but the way that many verses and characters use it incorrectly makes it difficult to tell what they exactly mean.

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

Alien X has never called himself Omnipotent, and Darkseid Thanos and Buu all have evidence suggesting they arent omnipotent, whereas Alien X hasnt. No credible character have called them omnipotent, unlike Alien X.

Furthermore, the creators of the sereis have repeteadly stated alien X has omnipotence, and that he "can have any power imaginable", somemthing that the creators never stated for either Darkseid, Thanos or Buuhan . Surely the creators of Ben 10 know what they are talking about? And it's very easy to tell exactly what they mean, it means he can do anything that isnt limited to Ben 10 series.

. If there is no reason to doubt Alien X is omnipotent, then why not assume he is? Just becaues some fictional character lie about being omnipotent, doesnt mean all of them do. That's baseless headcanon. We might as well rejects statements from a character stating they can blow up a planet or universe , as they are too vague, because some fictional characters have lied about being able to do that

 

[Crabwhale]

Because an omnipotent characters doesn't have any limits, as established by authorities like Thomas Equines.

Alien X being omnipotent is quite frankly a joke, as he has many limits (personalities limiting him, other Celestialsapiens rivaling his power, etc, etc). Please stop this absurd line of logic immediately.

 

[Greenshifter]

@Crab he means that X should have every ability in the show, not literally omnipotent but @Door this is not really the thread to talk about that since then we'd go back to whether him not being able to manipulate mana is valid et etc. Ad Infinitum. Which brings us back to our problem, the Chrono Navigator ( yes I just ripped off Paradox)

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

@crabwhale, I already said not to take the word omnipotent literally, which you are doing. Thomas Equines whoever he is, cannot write an actual omnipotent character, because nobody can. It's not possible for any fictional character to be omnipotent .

I'm merely saying that there is nothing in Ben 10 that Alien X is limited to do, as in, he can do anything that is shown in Ben 10, but assuming he can do more is a no-limits fallacy.

He's essentially "omnipotent" to Ben 10 if you will.

@Greenshifter

What about the author saying that Alien X can have any power imaginable, and Azmuth saying he can do anything surely that should include CHrono Navigagtor? The authors say he cant manipulate mana doesnt mean much because no such thing is implied in the show.

 

[Greenshifter]

@Door if you want Alien X to get every ability in the show I suggest making your own CRT for it since focusing on Chrono Navigator scaling and this is a bit much for one CRT.

Speaking of the Chrono Navigator:

People saying the Chrono Navigator works via hax:

People saying the Chrono Navigator works via AP:

People saying it could be both:

I would like some clarification on the King Boo case and if the Chrono Navigator scales to itself or not if we assume the portals interpretation (since it is 2B thus outputting energy across a 5D-axis is a thing implying multiversal power which King Boo's case does not have) and if the Chrono Navigator doesn't scale to itself, wouldn't Alien X still scale above it because the energy needed to create those portals across the multiverse and destroy the multiverse has to come from somewhere, I see this more of a case where different ruptures in space-time come together to form one big rupture, but the former would take as much energy as the latter which is accepted as 2B.

 

[Crabwhale]

@ Door

Well, learn to word your statements better then, because that's what it seemed you were implying.

And again, even in the context of the show, Alien X is not "omnipotent" for the same reasons I already stated. He does struggle, and he does have drawbacks.

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

@crabwhale I already worded it out that way in my previous statement to DragonDoom. And what do you mean by he isnt omnipotent? Is there something some Ben 10 characters can do that he has failed to do?

@Greenshifter , well I think its its relevant for this CRT,

 

[Crabwhale]

That's not just the definition of "omnipotent". Even practical omnipotence within a given verse that isn't the bullshit unachievable version has some prerequisites, like having no limits or never struggling.

Alien X does have things that limit him (the multiple personalities for one) and things that can make him struggle (the surface of that one planet even he can't approach, other Celestialsapiens), meaning even within the context of the verse he is not all powerful.

I don't understand exactly what you're even trying to argue for exactly here, but I ask you again, drop this needless point in a discussion that has absolutely nothing to do with it.

 

[LaggingAround]

So I'm still in favor of putting Alien X back to 2-C. But continuing with this thread, I just want to point out one thing.

@Firestorm your initial argument was "Statement's about the power of Celestialsapiens aren't a one-time thing and are consistant during the series' production."

Which would give them the scale to the Chrono Navigator.

But based off the quotes that you showed us, prior to Omniverse and the power of the Chrono Navigator it was stated multiple times of Celestialsapiens having "the greatest power." Multiple times this was stated.

Yet when Omniverse came out and Chrono Navigator came, (again based off the quotes that you pulled) it was never once stated "Celestialsapiens greatest power."

Omnipotent was stated but Crab went over why they aren't.

So my point is that I am in agreement with Everlasting argument "Even with how we treat statements vs author intent I feel like it's important to mention that I highly doubt the statements about Alien X were made with the Chrono Navigator in mind."

The fact is the show before was fine with stating them having the greatest power ever as we saw them say it multiple times, but in the last series it was never stated even though they had a chance to.

• Edited* Also in their first ever quote from Celestialsapiens they said they were the "Most powerful beings."

Do powerful beings automatically give them scale to a product? If the Chrono Navigator was an actual being then I would agree, but it's a product/item.

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

@Crabwhale

Alien X is only mentioned to be unable to survive on that planet by WOG, never in the series. And as far as I know author statements are not used in VSBW if nothing in the series backs them up. Furthermore, the authors and characters in the series have said that as long as Serena and Bellicus agree with something, they can do anything( which would obviously be limited to the Ben 10 series). Heck, according to Paradox Aggregor would have been omnipotent without having multiple personalities, had he absorbed a baby celestialsapien + Ben has full controll over Alien X without ever needing to talk to Serena and Bellicus after the episode "Universe Vs Tennyson".

And it's not exactly pointless, I'm saying Alien X should scale to both multiversal weapons, based on the fact that WOG and characters in the series have stated he can do anything, that he can have any power imaginable, that he is omnipotent, has the greatest power in the universe etc. I really dont understand why that's so hard to get?


@Laggingaround

The burden of proof is on you to prove that the authors changed their mind about Celestialsapiens being the most powerful thing during Omniverse, since we are given no reason to believe so. The authors have said after Omniverse that Alien X can " have any power imaginable", which obviously implies that he is above the Chrono Navigator.

 

[Firestorm808]

@LaggingAround

The process of deciding to do an action and having the power to perform said action are independent of each other. So long as the personalities agree, the action will be done. Said actions of repeatedly "anything" suggests it includes whatever has been presented so far in the source material. Nothing in the source material suggests otherwise.

Also, Anur Vladias isn't supported by the source material, and it's from an art director.