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About 2-B Alien X (Continued)

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Yes thats why I brought Porunga here not to derail but to discuss as how recreating something means person scales to their recreation or not so if Porunga one is answered then CTB will be too

Recreating CTB is existence erasure?? I think you meant Annihilarg destroying CTB?

Alright sure I will drop this and Porunga one if it cant be discussed here
 
No I meant the CTB probably works via existence erasure, which makes this case even more complicated because an ordinary power source doesn't erase stuff.
 
1) this site lists destroying something from existance as a reality warping feat, implying reality = existance

"All of reality" is really obvious as for what it means, it's common sense that reality and existance have the same meaning.

if you look in any dictionary you will see that reality means something alike :" the state of things as they actually exist," or "the state or quality of having existence or substance."

i.e the word "reality" means something that actually exists and isn't non-corporeal like an idea.

Which obviously would mean that all of reality = all of existance. Reality and existance have the same meaning. the word reality is no less vague than existance, and Paradox even uses the 2 words interchangeably to further back this up. It really does not matter which statement you pick from Paradox,because they mean the exact same thing
 
Euhm if it doesn't use a 2-B power source then it doesn't scale, if it does then it does cause pretty sure this was agreed on in previous threads.
 
Sorry, wasnt aware of new replies due to notification issues (as in not getting notifs of replies here earlier).

>No, but destroying reality = erasing it. You cant physically destroy concept.

Again, no its not. A reality isnt a concept and not every reality destroyer and their mother here has existence erasure for being able to destroy realities. Want evidence? Refer to the dragon ball character's I pointed out.

>I dont recall a universe and reality being the same thing.

.....but...they are.

>It's not remotely established to this day, and yet it's on the Chrono Navigator's wiki page? okay.

Or it just means whoever edited the Navigator's page did a poor job of giving actual justifications to whats on it. Which, for many pages here, isn't new.

>It's not really a false equvalency, when you said that we shouldnt scale Alien X due to him never directly getting compared with the weapons, implying you need to get directly compared to something in order to scale from something else.

For one, this isn't purely the only reason why Alien X shouldn't scale to them. Only part of it. Hence the "especially".

Two, Android 16 directly scales to Cell, who directly scales to Frieza and Goku. Therefore, 16 scales to Frieza, Goku and other characters in the same tier. How this isn't "direct" is beyond me. You can scale to other people if who you scale to scales to them as well. Like if Character A fights Character B, who scales to Character C, then A scales to C as well for fighting someone C is comparable to. Character B. This is pretty simple.

>Well then, how come Sour and most of Whis siblings other than Vados, have literally 0 feats yet are scaled from Jiren, purely from statements???

The Angels are not scaled from Jiren for one. They scale from the God of Destructions for being far superior to them, which is why they're "Likely 2-C" now. Refer to Whis to see this for yourself.

But even disregarding that, a very casual Jiren is on the level of the Gods of Destructions. The Angels are far stronger than the gods of destructions. Hence, they scale from Jiren for being on level with characters the Angels outclass easily. Once again, simple scaling.

>also i never said they could do anything.

....But you literally did. This entire thread, to upgrade Celestialspaines above the Navigator. And expecting me to not take omnipotent literally, but take "can do anything" literally to scale Celestialsapiens above whatever you want them to is blatant cherry picking of statements.

>Care to give an example, where someone is stated to be omnipotent by credible characters and the authors of the series, yet still do not scale from every character within their series? Because if not, your point hardly matters.

Literally named 3 characters already that dont, but okay.

>By this logic the The One Above All from marvel should not scale from every being in marvel, yet he does.

The One Above All is incredibly different from what we're dealing with for Celesitalspaiens here. Besides being a 1-A transcendent being.

>All it really mean is that King Boo and Kaguya's most powerful attack is massively above their regular durabilty and everything else within the series.

Exactly, and it's the same here for the Chrono Navigator.

>to my knowledge the speed at which an infinite speed object/being destroys the multiverse is completely irrelevant

The Navigator is literally a device. It's not infinite in speed whatsoever.

>and after watching it again, Eon speeds up the destruction caused by space-time manipulation via shooting out a beam of energy into the sky most likely tearing reality apart faster or bringing the universes closer to each other (he was anchoring them after all)

Which is still not an outright 2-B feat. At the most, thats speeding up the chain reaction process of destroying existence, which doesn't negate the fact that it's an overtime feat either way. Especially since even after releasing energy, nothing is destroyed whatsoever. A storm is generated, that's it.

>As for why Eon did not immediately destroy reality when he wanted to, no idea, showing off maybe, just PIS, doesn't really matter because it should be infinite speed scaling from Paradox.

Read what I said above. The navigator is literally just a device, it has no speed or movement to it in any way, shape or form. Hence why there is no speed rating for it because it doesn't use speed. And for self explanatory reasons.

Anyway, PIS can't be used here. This episode is explicitly the one and only showing of the Navigator's destructive capabilities. For something to be PIS, it needs to have previous higher end showings to contradict lower end inconsistencies, which the Navigator doesn't have. The Navigator never demonstrates it's power outside this episode. If it doesn't start destroying reality, let alone immediately, then that's what it's display is. 2-B destruction through an overtime chain reaction process that scales to no one.

Also, can people STOP DERAILING this thread with off-topic nonsense? How many times does this need to be asked? All of the stuff involving souls, mind hax, whatever, take it elsewhere.
 
Isn't Dimentio a case of overtime destruction that scales to AP? Also devices can have a speed such as the Omnitrix, especially a speed at which they destroy something or use their hax.
 
@Doorinmyhouse

1) Existence erasure doesn't give you reality wrapping while reality wrapping can give you existence erasure because existence erasure is sub application of reality wrapping while reality wrapping isn't sub application of existence erasure and reason existence erasure is sub application of reality wrapping is because person who can reality wrap can delete someone from existence as person has grip over reality

All of the reality means everything while definition of reality as you said means everything but in fiction thats not the case as reality could mean something smaller like alternate realities which doesn't mean everything in existence or could include non existent beings or abstract or metaphysical or imaginary non sensical beings it could mean anything it is just as vague as dimensions are not to say existence isn't less vague either just empty existence means nothing and could mean existence in a place or in a Planet or the whole existence or everything including non existence etc while Paradox makes it clear that Chrono navigator can destroy everything it doesn't interchange with reality which could mean anything depending on context just like Gogeta and Broly dimensional feat was called as reality shattering doesn't mean that they were destroying everything in the verse,reality is just unquantifiable term in fiction tiering which could mean anything so you need to tell me that how reality is being used and which size does it have and when did he use those words interchangeably?

@Greenshifter

But doesn't CTB radiate 2-B level of existence erasure so why isn't it a 2-B source?
 
@My Area ask Kukui and again Kukui literally just asked not to bring up stuff like this in his thread... you know there is another thread made by me to discuss the CTB's tier right?
 
@Greenshifter its very important and relevant to Alien X in this case,if CTB is 2-B level souce and Alien X can recreate it wouldn't it be massive supporting 2-B level feat for Alien X even if scaling from all existence/omnipotent/can do anything ends up getting reverted provided it doesn't come under recreation hax?

If its derailing then ok I will stop as I can't debate in different threads as I am busy due to tests
 
I mean sure it could be important but we'll deal with it if we have to deal with it, for now let's focus on the navigator. What is your take on the Navigator destroying existence and specifically it's method of doing so?
 
@Professor As pointed out by Greenshifter, Super Dimentio is listed as being 2-b , despite the fact that he uses a simliar void to the Chrono Navigator's. the void destroys all of existance as a side-effect and does it over time as mentioned by him in this video , yet it still scales to his individual stats, meaning so should be the case for the Chrono Navigator..

And sidenote, I realize I should have been more clear as to what I meant by "attack potency". Im not saying that someone cant use hax to say destroy a planet or a universe, I'm saying that the Chrono Navigator does indeed use hax and nothing else but hax to destroy the multiverse, just like Super Dimentio uses void manipulation hax to do the same or King Boo use portal hax to destroy a universe.

> Or it just means whoever edited the Navigator's page did a poor job of giving actual justifications to whats on it. Which, for many pages here, isn't new.

Existance erasure has been classified as a sub-ability of reality warping for years, as you can see from the bottom of the Reality Warping page. Void manipulation + portal manipulation are pure hax abilities and nothing else. The Chrono Navigator only uses hax to destroy the multiverse.
 
> ....But you literally did. This entire thread, to upgrade Celestialspaines above the Navigator.

Strawman, I literally did not, I litreally said numerous times that they can do anything limited to the Ben 10 series, key word limited, i would like it very much if you stopped twisting my words.

All I'm arguing is that Alien X/ Celestialsapiens are the supreme beings of Ben 10, meaning everything in the series should scale to them . So just replace my usage of the word "omnipotent" as "supreme being" since it confuses you , the meaning in this case is the same.

>Literally named 3 characters already that dont, but okay.

Nope you literally did not, that's a massive false equivalence and a strawman. only 1 of the characters you brought up, Hao, was stated to be omnipotent by credible characters..

Yhwach was never called omnipotent by credible characters, heck he wasnt called omnipotent or omniscient ever in the series, you are using fan-translations which are more often than not inaccurate.

Yhwach's ability " Òé©Òâ╗Òé¬Òâ╝Òâ½Òâ×ÒéñÒâåÒéú " aka "The Almighty" translates to literally "omnipotence and omniscience " it's never stated to be something he actually is, it's just the name of his ability. Arceus, like Yhwach, only has an ability called "omnipotent", he is never stated to be that by any credible characters, this is not at all comparable to a character being stated to be omnipotent or the supreme being by credible characters. I honestly dont understand how you are equating a name with a statement, but okay.

As for Hao, according to his wiki profile , when he's using the Great spirit he has the:" collective of all the souls that inhabit the Universe, great or small." and according to the shaman king wiki the Great Spirit has" the ability to control any aspect that the universe retains. " which only works as a counter to your argument, as it seems to me that the Great Spirit is the supreme being that has all the powers of the universe, which is no different from what I'm arguing should be the case for Celestialsapieins, that they are the supreme beings.

So no, you did not literally name 3 characters that already do. None of them does. In fact all you did is reaffirm that characters that are considered the supreme being of a series should scale from everyone, as I've been saying from the very start.

So I ask you again, name any character in any fiction stated to be omnipotent by credible characters +authors + stated to be able to do anything or stated to have any power imaginable and yet still isn't the supreme being of their verse.

> The One Above All is incredibly different from what we're dealing with for Celesitalspaiens here.

Explain why he is a supreme being and alien x Isnt.

>Exactly, and it's the same here for the Chrono Navigator.

Not really, a character/ weapon can be a glass canon and still scale to itself.

Just look at Haruhi Suzumiya who is listed as being 2-C despite having normal human strength, durablity, speed etc, or the Anihilargh being easily crushed by human Ben's foot. The only reason King Boo has seperate tiers for his attack potency is because his portals are a slow suicide attack , it's not because it doesnt scale to himself. His portal hax fundementally works the same as Super Dimentio's void hax which do scale to his individual stats because they wont kill him.
 
@myarea

1) Existance erasure is listed as a type of reality warping, so that's blatantly false. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Reality_Warping If you are able to erase something from existance, you have reality warping.

It isn't the case actually, stop interpreting the word reality as anything other than its most obvious and common meaning, please. Reality could mean alot of things, BUT the thing is, Paradox used the words "ALL " of reality, which really is not vague at all . Unless you can prove that reality does not mean existence, I see no reason to contiue this discussion, you are literally just arguing against a very common and easy to understand word for the sake of arguing. There is nothing vague about " all of reality". He used the word interchangeably, because he first said " all of reality could be destroyed" and afterwards said " I warned you Eon, stop it now or all of existance will be destroyed".
 
Has anyone come to a proper conclusion yet? I'm going to be quite honest, the thread has become far too bloated for me to properly read through.
 
@Doorinmyhouse

1) Existence erasure is sub application of reality warping meaning the user who has reality warping can perform existence erasure not that person who can delete someone from existence is reality warping thats blantly false and was never the case with this wiki,characters who have existence erasure dont have reality warping because of it while people who have reality warping can have existence erasure as its sub application of it,it doesn't go both way

Reality warping has existence erasure in its sub category as in its one of the applications of it while existence erasure doesn't have reality warping in it nor does it mean reality warping you can check out any character with existence erasure and it wont have reality warping because of deleting someone

That would be case if reality meaning wasn't so variable or vague then I would agree and even you agreed that reality could mean alot of things(limited from planets to universes to alternate timelines to whole existence) so that is the reason I want you to clarify that what reality means in this case and whether he ever used it or not.Oh so if you dont mind can you please tell me when did he say "all of reality" if there is evidence then you are right and I concede because I frankly dont want to argue too much but its important
 
@Greenshifter

Though I dont think by destroying existence it literally means existence erasure but existence erasure is possible since it will destroy everything throughout the multiverse and nothing remains otherwise all existence wouldn't be used but I don't know how it does that since we never see it destroying a multiverse completely but by what we see with Eon it caused portals and different timelines distortion so it would probably destroy everything through distortions which would collapse multiverse and destroy everything through space and time manipulation though thats my take I want to hear whats your take in this?
 
Celestialsapiens creates existance and Chrono Navigator destroys it either way it's Celestialsapiens will be fine.
 
@My area @ Greenshifter

it being existance erasure or not doesnt matter at the end of the day.

@Myy area

my argument was that the Chrono Navigator uses hax to destroy the multiverse, and seing how a similar ability from Dimentio is treated purely as hax and nothing else, I dont see why the Chrono Navigator should be treated differently. Do you agree that the Chrono navigator uses space-time hax to destroy the mutliverse, yes or no ? and if no, why?
 
@Greenshifter

Wasn't it stated it will destory everything and all existence meaning whole Ben 10 cosmology if not then I see your point

@Doorinmyhouse

Alright

Yes I do agree that Chrono navigator uses hax to destroy multiverse and if Dimentio situation is like this then I agree it shouldn't be treated differently,Yes I agree it destroys multiverse through space and time hax because frankly when we saw what chrono navigator can do with Eon it was literally making distortions in time and was tesring it apart through space and time manipulation so its definitely 2-B hax and should be treated as AP feat too like Dimento or Zeno erasure
 
@my area ok then, and since you agree that it is hax, you agree that Alien X should scale to it, since Alien X was refered to as the most powerful hax in the universe?
 
@Grrenshifter dont remember that ever being stated for Xeno Goku by that attack do you mean Demigra's attack?

@Doorinmyhouse

Yeah it could scale to it based on your and others argument but it might not scale because of vague statement based on Professor Kukui argument so both sides makes good arguments hence I am nuetral about it so thats why I wont comment on this matter
 
Sorry for bothering you guys I just want to ask a question and yes it's not related to this thread. Is gag characters like saitama and arale are scalable characters? I just want to know
 
Saitama isn't gag character in very least and yes both can scale through feats/statements/scaling so here being gag is treated just like normal character in terms of tiering and tiered accordingly to statements/feats/scaling

Well I wont derail now if you want to ask you can in our personal messege wall thank you
 
My area said:
Saitama isn't gag character in very least and yes both can scale through feats/statements/scaling so here being gag is treated just like normal character in terms of tiering and tiered accordingly to statements/feats/scaling

Well I wont derail now if you want to ask you can in our personal messege wall thank you
Click to expand...
since they can be scaled does that mean UI goku is stronger than arale because he showed better feats than here?? I mean don't see the point of scaling theme since feats doesn't really matter with gag characters . But it's OK I'm not going to bother you since I'm not supposed to ask those questions because it's not related to this thread
 
if you have any further question you can ask me in my personal messege wall where we can talk and I will answer you it you want to discuss I dont mind
 
>Super Dimentio is listed as being 2-b , despite the fact that he uses a simliar void to the Chrono Navigator's. the void destroys all of existance as a side-effect and does it over time as mentioned by him in this video

None of this is ever mentioned in that video. What Super Dimentio was doing wasn't a "side effect", nor was it something he was doing in an overtime process, otherwise his justification on his page would point that out. In fact, let's take a look at what his justification says.

"Multiverse level (If Dimentio had not been defeated by Mario, he would have destroyed the totality of all worlds, timelines and possibilities in the Marioverse. Which includes things like the Dream Depot, where the dreams of the citizens are turned into entire universes)"

Super Dimentio wasn't destroying the Mariomultiverse in a drawn out timeframe, he was defeated by Mario before he had the opportunity to destroy the worlds. A huge difference from the Chrono Navigator, on-screen at that, destroying the Ben 10 Multiverse overtime.

>I'm saying that the Chrono Navigator does indeed use hax and nothing else but hax to destroy the multiverse, just like Super Dimentio uses void manipulation hax to do the same or King Boo use portal hax to destroy a universe.

Yes, but it doesn't change anything because whether through hax or AP, the Navigator isn't using direct 2-B power to destroy the Multiverse. It's overtime, showing that the Navigator doesn't release 2-B power to outright destroy everything.

>All I'm arguing is that Alien X/ Celestialsapiens are the supreme beings of Ben 10, meaning everything in the series should scale to them . So just replace my usage of the word "omnipotent" as "supreme being" since it confuses you , the meaning in this case is the same.

Okay? This also doesn't change anything here either. Being at the top of your verse's food chain doesn't mean everything gets handed to you on a sliver platter, and Alien X is not the first character to be treated this way. Nor will he be the last. And i've already explained to you multiple times why random nods of "can do anything" isn't to be taken literally without wanking.

>Yhwach was never called omnipotent by credible characters, heck he wasnt called omnipotent or omniscient ever in the series, you are using fan-translations which are more often than not inaccurate.

So Uryu doesn't outright state he has Omnipotence and Omniscience? You are blatantly lying at this point and your only actual counter argument to thsi is it being a "fan translation", which I highly doubt it is or else you would have brought the correct one to prove me wrong. And you havent.

>I honestly dont understand how you are equating a name with a statement, but okay.

Because just like a name title for an ability, a statement can be entirely hyperbolic with flowerly language.

>and according to the shaman king wiki the Great Spirit has" the ability to control any aspect that the universe retains. " which only works as a counter to your argument, as it seems to me that the Great Spirit is the supreme being that has all the powers of the universe

Uh, controlling any aspect within the universe =/= having all the powers the shaman king universe provides. How you made that connection is literally taken out of nowhere. And the fact Hao nor the Shaman King itself isn't given every power within their series is also damning evidence that they don't have every ability or can literally do anything they want. Hao's treated as a supreme being because of the Great Spirit being the "king" of the shaman king verse and the originator of all souls in Shaman Kng. Not because he can literally do anything he wants. He can't.

And it's still amazing how you completely overlooked the actual point I was making, again.

>So no, you did not literally name 3 characters that already do. None of them does. In fact all you did is reaffirm that characters that are considered the supreme being of a series should scale from everyone, as I've been saying from the very start.

And without defined context, this means literally and absolutely nothing at all. As i've said before.

>Explain why he is a supreme being and alien x Isnt.

Read his page for starters. Im not knowledgeable on the Marvel universe, but the fact that he is treated as a 1-A transcendent being with far better feats already makes him entirely different from the case your trying to make here with Alien X. And even then, make your own thread for TOAA to get better answers.

>Just look at Haruhi Suzumiya who is listed as being 2-C despite having normal human strength, durablity, speed etc, or the Anihilargh being easily crushed by human Ben's foot.

...your literally comparing a weapon to an actual person for one. Horrible false equivalancy. And even then, Haruhi is only 2-C using her hax abilities, which is why she is a glass canon. Not because her 2-C feat is done overtime. Sure, glass canons don't all fall under the same boat for the same reasons, but scaling is also different. And the Navigator is different for not directly using the power neccessary to destroy the Multiverse.

>The only reason King Boo has seperate tiers for his attack potency is because his portals are a slow suicide attack , it's not because it doesnt scale to himself. His portal hax fundementally works the same as Super Dimentio's void hax which do scale to his individual stats because they wont kill him.

Oh look. Another false equivalancy.

For one, void manipulation is offensive based hax. Portals are not. So no, King Boo's portals and Dimentio creating a void isn't at all the same thing. The latter is directly destructive and offensive, the other is indirect and a chain reaction.

Two, you just contradicted yourself. The Low 2-C doesnt scale to Boo because he doesnt have the stats to survive the portals Low 2-C power. It would kill him, thus his individual stats do not scale to the portals. Dimentio can survive the destruction he would unleash with the Chaos Heart, which is why his rating scales to him directly.
 
At this point, the counter arguments against me are just, no offense, annoying rinse-repeat points arguing semantics or details that hardly matter when faced with the overall main point.

The Chrono Navigator is not an outright 2-B weapon that wields 2-B energy to unleash actual 2-B attacks. We have dealt with multiple points on why this isn't the case, as brought up and later revealed by recent arguments. Whether the Navigator uses AP or pure hax, it relies on a drawn out chain reaction to destroy the Multiverse, proving that it cannot directly destroy the Ben 10 Multiverse with actual 2-B level power thats required of it to scale to the tier.

Thus, im sticking to my Option 1 point that nothing here is actually 2-B at all.
 
@Kukui you also didn't really voice your opinion on whether the Chrono Navigator works via hax or not and did not address my response to the Chrono Navigator's speed. Also we already agreed Chrono Navigator doesn't use existence erasure so bringing that up is kinda pointless.
 
It's not my job to determine whether it works by hax or AP, your side were the ones who brought this argument here. My job is to argue why Celestialsapiens shouldnt be 2-B, your arguments only just gave me more ammo to use by arguing it's hax based first, then flipping back to AP based when I brought up chain reactions.

As for speeds, don't compare the Omnitrix to the Navigator. Not only does the Omnitrix not have any speed outside of failsafe transformations, self-destruction mode and Alien X (as a matter of fact, why is Alien X a justification for speed? Literally any alien Ben uses would fit this slot and IDK why its being used here), the Omnitrix is actually prove to opperate at those speeds.

The Navigator is depicted on screen in the one episode it ever appears in the franchise to not destroy the Multiverse in any quick timeframe and it has nothing to even scale to for speed.
 
Well that's where you're wrong. Since it's power source did appear and Paradox used it in other scenario's where it also required to have a certain speed such as Alien X's pocket dimension.
 
What does it's power source have to do with speed? And it requiring speeds in "other scenerio's" is most likely do to Paradox himself being physically infinite in speed for existing outside of space-time, the Navigator doesn't scale to that.

Plus, your forgetting that the Navigator is originally a Multiverse-traveling device to travel to other universes and time-periods. Even if it has a speed for a certain action, the Navigaor has different functions and what speed it uses for one doesn't scale to the other.
 
Well if it can keep up with Paradox then it would indeed have infinite speed and we would also assume this in vs battles.

You certain about that? Seems like Occam's Razor to say they all happen at the same speed since it's the same device and the same power source?
 
The Navigator is literally physically on his perso and is used by someone who is infinite in speed. That doesn't mean the device itself is infinite in speed. This is like saying someone whos infinite in speed uses a sword and swings it at infinite speeds themselves, therefore the sword itself is that fast. Not to mention its portrayls directly contradict it being that fast anyway.

The speeds the Omnitrix is accepted to have all don't opperate at the same speeds (unless it's self-destruct mode, which took a whole length of a movie to fully activate, is suddenly MFTL+)
 
Massive false equivalency since the sword is not a device, also Solaris destroys the multiverse "over time" yet has immeasurable speed.

Granted Omnitrix can probably exponentially build up charge to destroy the universe but this is a case where Occam's Razor is contradicted by more information.

Paradox also gives his time crystals to make the Time cycles, which can move at FTL speeds since they can blitz the time beast. The device can also be used to enter time stops after they activate and make people who are not infinite in speed regularly, move inside said time stop.
 
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