About 2-B Alien X (Continued)

[My_area]

@Greenshifter

Can CTB only destroy 1 timeline though? But Annihilarg creates entire universe from non existence when no universe is there or destroy entire universe to nothingness when universe is there so its pretty much implying Low 2-C here

So that means that every Low 2-C characters should have existence erasure because they destroy the entire matter and time of a universe so all matter will be destroyed?

I dont know about 2-C and whenever Annihilarg is mentioned the word universe is only used so its implying Low 2-C rather than 2-C but I will discuss it in the cosmology thread you made

 

[Firestorm808]

I don't think it's based on normal destruction to nothing but based around Reality Warping to nothing.

Existence Erasure is the simple power to remove something from existence, leaving nothing behind, a level of destruction beyond incineration, vaporization, and atomization. Rather than just reducing something to its constituent parts, this ability leaves absolutely nothing behind. Powerful enough uses of this ability can even erase the mind and soul, if not more fundamental aspects of one's existence, such as concepts.

 

[Hizack123]

Tho i side with just downgrade Alien-x back to low 2-C but i also have nothing against possibly 2-B either.

So ok then i go with 2nd option.

 

[Badrimoine2019]

You guys are big dawnplayers and you keep saying bullshits. Alien_X should not back to low 2-c and he should be even higher than 2-A but its clearly that none of you watched Ben 10 unfortunately

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

man stop it

 

[My_area]

@Firestorm808

I am confused? How is it based on reality wrapping? Annihilarg destroys the entire universe using Low 2-C level of energy and it should be AP level feat not a reality wrapping feat..

That was my entire point before..Since Annihilarg destroys the entire universe using normal destruction then it shouldn't be given existence erasure just like how we dont give existence erasure to characters who can destroy entire universe space and time continum using ap

 

[Firestorm808]

But the Anihalarg does use Reality Warping. Creation and erasure from and to literal nothing is a form of reality warping. How else does it create a universal space-time and it's respective laws of nature? Maltruant even reprogrammed one to make a universe with different laws of reality.

Reality Warping (sometimes called Reality Alteration or Reality Manipulation) is a term used to describe the ability to manipulate reality itself.

The ability to change reality into how the person in question sees fit, while ignoring the rules of science. Users can alter any item already considered real. Any decision made in the past, any item ever created, any movement, choice, color, atom, or molecule that exists can be changed. All of existence bends to the imagination of a reality warper. Users can rewrite the laws of physics and then change them back in an instant, universes can bend to the will of a reality warper. Examples include erasing things out of existence, granting wishes, creating universes, creating/altering matter, time manipulation, spatial manipulation, etc.

 

[Greenshifter]

If you put it that way it does sound like it uses the same hax to create and destroy the universe, which should also apply to the Chrono Navigator manipulating and destroying the multiverse, so we basically came full circle here lol and since the universe's destruction via reality warping already scales to the Anihilaarg's AP, destroying the multiverse via space-time manipulation/reality warping should also scale to Chrono Navigator's AP, thus making it irrelevant whether the strongest power statement refers to AP or hax and thus the only thing going for a possibly/likely 2B is the statement being made in UA and the Chrono Navigator only being established as a 2B-device in OV.

Does everyone agree with this and if so can I TLDR it and ask some admins to comment here?

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

i agree, and in addition, the Chronosapien Timebomb was shown and stated to literally " erase every timeline and everyone in them from existance". which is definitely also existance erasure, but on a higher scale than the ANihilargh

 

[Hizack123]

You guys are big dawnplayers and you keep saying bullshits. Alien_X should not back to low 2-c and he should be even higher than 2-A but its clearly that none of you watched Ben 10 unfortunately

Bait

 

[My_area]

@Firestorm808

Wait? I thought creating universe space and time would count for creation feat? And I dont understand how destroying universe space and time is reality wrapping and how is it different from any Low 2-C character destroying a universe space and time with ap?

Did he? If he did then I suppose reality wrapping could work because of different law of Physics

So basically Existence erasure is subcategory of reality wrapping?

@Greenshifter

I still dont understand how Annihilarg destroying a universe or Chrono navigator destroying 2-B timelines is hax feat and not ap feat?

Sorry Firestorm808 and Greenshifter if I am being too annoying with those questions but I am confused

 

[Greenshifter]

@My Area no problemo mate, I'll break it down for you.

So Maltruant was gonna rewrite the universe to his liking and assumingly make it impossible for someone to stand against him. This is most likely accomplished by reality warping much like The Spear Of Destiny (CW).

We then assume the Anihilaarg uses a subset of reality warping aka Existence Erasure to destroy the universe, thus making it a hax feat that scales to AP as seen with Dimentio and the Ultimate Annihilator.

We then assume the Chrono Navigator works the same way but this time via reality warping and space-time manipulation rather than existence erasure.

This means that Paradox's greatest power statement, if it refers to hax, implies that Alien X's space-time manipulation and reality warping is greater than the Chrono Navigator's STM and RW and thus give him a 2B rating based on that. If everything is done via AP then it's just a straightforward 2B.

 

[Andytrenom]

Hold up

I'm pretty sure the point of the hax argument is that the range of what Alien X can do puts him beyond others, not his sheer power (which of course I don't agree with but whatever), even if we accept the devices as hax, they would be limited in what they can do, and won't invalidate the point if we don't scale to the exact potency of the devices

However, assuming Celestialsapien's are only referred to as the greatest power because they have good abilities that bypass the need to betraditionally stronger than others is by no means a certain conclusion, which is why I'm only fine with a "low 2-C, possibly 2-B", since that acknowledges the statement referring to raw power as well

 

[Greenshifter]

So you're basically saying that if the devies are hax and the strongest power statement also refers to hax, this doesn't necessarily mean AX scales above their 2B AP granted by said hax?

And yeah obviously the interpretation of the greatest power statement referring to raw AP is still the most likely interpretation in my eyes, but even if the devices are hax, they would still need 2B power to execute said hax and thus still scale to AX.

 

[Firestorm808]

Once we get into multiple timelines, I don't think range is a factor at all. If 2 people have the same type of Reality Warping hacks with the first able to destroy 5 timelines and the second able to destroy 10, the latter would have better/stronger hacks in general instead of just range. The basic requirement is the following:

2-B: Multiverse level
Characters who can create and/or destroy larger multiverses which comprise from 1001 to any higher finite amount of isolated space-time continua.

If the Chrono Navigator and CTB use pure AP to destroy multiple timelines and Alien X is referred to have the greatest AP, they are 2-B, and Alien X would scale.

If the Chrono Navigator and CTB use hacks to destroy multiple timelines and Alien X has greater hacks, then they would still be 2-B, and Alien X would still scale.

 

[Badrimoine2019]

Once we get into multiple timelines, I don't think range is a factor at all. If 2 people have the same type of hacks but only 1 of them can destroye multiple timelines, the latter would have better/stronger hacks. The basic requirement is the following:

Alien_X should be higher than 2-B

 

[Greenshifter]

@Bad working on it, there's a thread going on to get him to 2A, after that I'll watch Generator Rex and see what I can get from there, everything at it's time all right?

 

[Badrimoine2019]

@Bad working on it, there's a thread going on to get him to 2A, after that I'll watch Generator Rex and see what I can get from there, everything at it's time all right?

hmmm i would say low 1-c but I'm fine with 2-A

 

[My_area]

@Greenshifter

Thank you

Malturent was going to use Annihilarg to rewrite universe? If yes then I agree with reality wrapping

So its listed as existence erasure because its going to destroy the whole timeline to nothingness? But isn't Annihilarg doing what a Low 2-C character with AP would do which is destroying a timeline but if Annihilarg has reality wrapping then basically I agree with existence erasure too

The confusion stems from because we dont know how Chrono navigator is going to destroy timelines is it by space and time manipulation or is it by ap feat? Based on description in the page it sounds like ap feat to me more than hax feat

If its confirmed that Chrono navigator uses hax to destroy timelines and not ap feat then I no longer disagree with Alien X being 2-B anymore because the strongest statements refers to hax and Chrono navigator destroys timeline with hax so its fine having Alien X as 2-B rating

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

@My area while the Chrono Navigator is about to destoy all of existence , portals from the past are opening on Earth in the present.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kZXr6FkUpA

Portals from other dimensions are also opening on Earth, which is why you can see Paradox.

Also some sort of vortex start appearing. This is all clearly hax, and has nothing to do with AP, this is just before Eon would have accidentaly destroyed all existance had he not been stopped.

And again, the Chronosapien Timebomb was stated to erase all timelines except 1 from existance. Which is obviously existance erasure i.e hax

 

[Firestorm808]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmK-tDG9948

Eon used the Chrono Navigator to summon his minions with holes in time that he creates.

Gwen Tennyso: The holes in time... They're not closing!

The holes in time then gather to make time warps to other times and dimensions.

Professor Paradox: Careful, children! Crossing over the time warps can have disastrous consequences!

Eo: What is this, Time Walker? You tricked me!

Professor Paradox: On the contrary, I warned you. Stop this now or all of existence will be destroyed!

Eo: No! If I cannot rule the Cosmos then I will be the one to destroy it! Aaah!

 

[My_area]

@Doorinmyhouse

Is there evidence that CTB destroying all timelines but 1 is hax feat and not ap feat?

@Doorinnyhouse and @Firestorm808

Oh so that means making holes in the dimensions is actually threatening to destroy the whole existence then if thats the case then I agree to Alien X being scaled above Chrono navigator using hax

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

If you go to the "hax" page, you can see one of the subcategories is Void Manipualtio. One of Void Manipulation's subcategories is Existance erasure also known as " Conversion to Nonexistence: , which is exactly what the CTB does. Destroying something from existance is categorised as a hax on this wiki.

And yea, thats clearly how the Chrono navigator works, as shown in the video.The Chrono Navigator can use holes in dimensions to travel i.e make a portal, but if used incorrectly said holes it makes can destroy all of existance, by destabilizing the timestream.

The Chrono Navigator can destroy the very concept of time and casuality, meaning it has "conceptual manipulation" , and casuality manipualtio , both are listed as hax.

Destroying concepts, casuality or existance is considered hax according to this wiki page

 

[My_area]

Doesn't CTB just destroy all of the timelines except 1 timeline? Why are we assuming that it turns almost all the timelines into non existence giving existence erasure? Isn't CTB doing what a AP of 2-B level character of destroying timelines "add infinitum" by attack potency alone does?

If thats the case then I agree with its hax and Alien X scaling to Chrono navigator

I doubt that it can destroy concepts or casuality its just going to destroy timelines branching off to add infinitum and destroying casualty in this context means destruction of almost all of the timelines as concept manipulation and casuality manipulation isn't listed in Chrono navigator page profile

 

[Greenshifter]

Eon: You're going to destroy this Ben 10 and his timeline? - Nice.

Vilgax: On the contrary, the detonation won't even touch this Ben Tennyson or his timeline. It's designed to wipe other timelines from existence.

This is the only time the word existence is used in "And Then There Were None".

I do think causality manipulation could be given to the Chrono Navigator, Paradox never uses the word concept IIRC so concept manipulation is pushing it too far.

 

[Greenshifter]

@MyArea Maltruant rewriting the universe might not be the right choice of words from me since he goes to before the universe is created. However the Contemelia go from dimension to dimension to create universes with presumably different laws of physics and they most likely use an Anihilaarg for it that they reprogram every time. So Malturant was gonna write the universe, not rewrite it but it should still be reality warping.

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

Doesn't CTB just destroy all of the timelines except 1 timeline? Why are we assuming that it turns almost all the timelines into non existence giving existence erasure?

Because that's Vilgax said it did, and what we were shown. We arent going to assume the CTB does something that was never mentioned or shown, when we have already been given an explanation as for how it works.

"I doubt that it can destroy concepts or casuality its just going to destroy timelines branching off to add infinitum and destroying casualty in this context means destruction of almost all of the timelines as concept manipulation and casuality manipulation isn't listed in Chrono navigator page profile"

This is headcanon, and doesnt have anything to do with what Paradox explained, Paradox who has complete understanding of the space time continuum and cant lie. We arent just going brush off what Paradox said and assume something baseless instead. The wiki isnt always accurate, which is why revision happens all the time and it fails to explain why we should doubt Paradox words.

By destroying time + casuality, all of existence will cease to exist as well. Which makes sense, considering its primary use is to manipulate time and change the cause of stuff.

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

@Greenshifter unless im mistaken, arent casulity and time concepts?

 

[Greenshifter]

Yes they are, however destroying the concept of time implies that if some Celestialsapiens were to survive the Chrono Navigator's destruction and someone of us comes in and tells them that time is destroyed, they'd have no clue what you're talking about since the very concept of time has never existed. This is not what Paradox means when he says it could destroy all of time and causality itself.

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

why not? what else would time and causality mean? The Anihilaargh destroyed all of time of 1 universe, which is why Alien X couldnt simply reverse time to reverse its affects. , so I dont see why the Chrono Navigator couldnt do the same but on a higher scale.

 

[Greenshifter]

Well first off I'd argue that the Anihilaarg only destroyed space-time at a single moment in time since that is what my 2C upgrade for the Anihilaarg is based on.

Secondly the Chrono Navigator is stated to destroy all timelines and all of time and causality, not erase them.

Even if we go with the interpretation that the Chrono Navigator erased all of time and causality and all timelines, this does not imply conceptual erasure since you couldn't even create a new multiverse with time without actually thinking about what time should be like and how it should function, since the previous definition of time just got conceptually erased.

Lastly, all of time only implies that the Chrono Navigator's attack extends throughout all of time and not that it will destroy time itself.

As for (all of) causality being destroyed, this might actually warrant causality manipulation and very maybe conceptual manipulation if you go via the interpretation that there is no "all of" causality and just the concept of causality itself.

 

[My_area]

@Greenshifter

If thats the case then I agree with the reality wrapping

@Doorinmyhouse

Vilgax said that "its designed to wipe other timelines from existence"

Where does it say existence erasure and how can we be so sure that it means existence erasure and simply not destruction of timelines?I mean is there any proof that it specifically meant existence erasure?

We have to look at the context here and in this context casualty just meant destruction of all the timelines which are growing add infinitum not actually destroying the casualty and Paradox statement isn't enough we need more proof that it actually affected and destroyed casuality when it exploded in order to give casualty manipulation

Destroying of casualty isn't need for destruction for existence just destruction of 2-B timelines is enough for that

It was destroying the whole existence not the time,the concept of time will still exists whether there is something in existence or not and there is not a single proof of destruction of concept of time

Alien X could reverse the effects of Annihilarg since its abilites are much superior but Ben used it to recreate the whole universe nearly the same as previous

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

@My area

Vilgax also said "only this timeline will be left intact, so all other[timelines] will cease to exist"

We literally see Ben tennysons get erased after touching the CTB' explosion with no trace of them left afterwards. What proof do you have that it isnt existance erasure, when we are clearly told it is? Why assume something that was never implied happened instead of what we were told? Occam's razor sys it is existance erasure.

What context do we have to look at exactly?

The Chrono Navigator never exploded, not sure what you are talking about? I think you are confusing the Chrono Navigator with the Chronosapien Timebomb.

The Anihilaargh creates time within a universe, so it would make perfect sense that it also destroys it. Time didnt exist before the Anihilaargh detonated and became the prime timeline.

Bellicus and Serena say that it's too late to do anything about the Anihilaargh while it is still destroying the universe, so you are wrong about that. Why would Alien X bother recreating the universe, if he could do something much simpler? Reversing time is much simpler and would have actually saved everyone, instead of letting everyone get killed and then creating an almost exact copy of everything in the universe.

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

• What do you mean by "single moment in time" ?
• The Chrono Navigator is never stated to destroy all timelines, at any point. And I never said it could erase anything, you are conflicting the Chrono Navigator with the time bomb. I'm not arguing all of existance, or casuality has ever been destroyed in Ben 10, because it hasnt. The CTB only erased all timelines except 1 from existance, it never destroyed any concepts,

I'm arguing that Eon almost destroyed all of casuality and time with the Chrono Navigator, because that's what Paradox says would happen had he continuued to use it.

 

[My_area]

@Doorinmyhouse

Doesn't timelines also technically "cease to exist" if its destroyed so what evidence is there that its different from destroying timelines?

Ben gets destroyed so I dont see how that suggests that he was erased from existence? Because we dont always take the word "ceasing to exists" literally so there would need to be proof that it can destroy something from existence..

Context regarding Paradox statement of destruction of all timelines which didn't have anything to casualty at all

Oops sorry I confused chrono navigator with chronosapien time bomb my bad

Annihilarg creates a timeline in a universe not creating time though time already exists but there was no flow of time hence creation of the universe caused flow of time from past to future I am sure time and timeline are 2 different thing

They said it was too late to stop it because it was already destroyed they can still stop it by time abilites and superior reality wrapping but however Ben decided to recreate the universe which is more simpler than reversing time and then recreating the damaged parts

I dont remember saying "single moment in time" correct me if I am wrong

Sorry again my fault I mixed it up,Chrono navigator was stated to destroy all timelines if misused which is what refered by "all of the existence"

Destroying the time means destruction of timelines which is what was refered with "all of the existence" not actually destroying concept of time as it has not been establised to affect concepts like time and casualty at all at any episode and it will take more than a casuality statement in order to be accepted since it didn't shown to mess with or affect casuality at any episode at all

 

[Greenshifter]

@Door Cease to exist does not necessarily imply existence erasure as something that is destroyed via AP in this way also ceases to exist for Vilgax's purposes.

You have a point with how it's portrayed and how Prime Ben seems to be erased from existence and only his Omnitrix is unaffected and No Watch Ben's arm literally goes through Prime Ben's arm.

I mean that the Anihilaarg only destroyed the present (and by extension future) and not the past however I am still trying to figure it out myself.

Paradox: On the contrary, I warned you. Stop this now or all of existence will be destroyed (earlier on he tells Ben that Eon wants absolute control over all timelines, all alternate realities and Eon was manipulating all of these before he realized he couldn't control them so he decided to blow them up instead)

 

[Firestorm808]

Summary:

Anihilarg

• Creates space-time from nothing and erases them to nothing.
• Can be programmed to make different laws of physics.
• Earth is shown to be wiped away, leaving nothing but blackness. When it detonates, you don't see the inside of the Earth as it's being erased. It's as if space itself, and in turn time, is being erased.

Chronosapien Time Bomb

• Vilgax: On the contrary, the detonation won't even touch this Ben Tennyson or his timeline. It's designed to wipe other timelines from existence.
• Vilgax: Only this timeline will be left intact, while all others will cease to exist, so every Ben Tennyson not from this timeline will be destroyed.
• As Ben Prime is being erased, he phases through No Watch Ben.
• Timelines are shown disappearing, leaving just a black void.

Chrono Navigator

• Eon wants absolute Space-Time Manipulation
• Professor Paradox: Eon wants nothing less than absolute power over everything all timelines, all alternate realities everything.
• Professor Paradox: Yes, but in anyone else's hands but mine it could cause irreparable damage to the time-stream or destroy all of time and causality itself.
• Eon used the Chrono Navigator to summon his minions with holes in time that he creates.
• Gwen Tennyso: The holes in time... They're not closing!
• The holes in time then gather to make time warps to other times and dimensions. (Space-Time Manipulation)
• Professor Paradox: Careful, children! Crossing over the time warps can have disastrous consequences!
• Eo: What is this, Time Walker? You tricked me!
• Professor Paradox: On the contrary, I warned you. Stop this now or all of existence will be destroyed!
• Eo: No! If I cannot rule the Cosmos then I will be the one to destroy it! Aaah!

 

[My_area]

@Greenshifter

Wait Annihilarg cant destroy the past of the timeline? How I thought Annihilarg has enough power to destroy the entirety of a timeline as its the same power which is used to create timelines from non existence

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

@My area

We take the word literally for the same reason we take the word literally when Zeno erases stuff from existances, if nothing suggests otherwise. How are you supposed to prove someone was erased from existance, if statements and visiuals arent enough?

Not sure what your point is with the Anihilargh- part. The Anihilargh doesnt merely create a timeline, time itself didnt exist in the Ben 10 cosmos before the Anihilaargh was used, as shown in the last episode of Omniverse

Your explanation for why they didnt reverse time doesnt make any sense, if the universe was already destroyed, why didnt they simply reverse time? What would prevent them from reversing time, unless "time" was destroyed as well? Reversing time is much simpler than recreating the entire universe + Ben would still be able to drink his favorite smoothies which he couldnt do after he recreated the unvierse. I was responding to Greenshifter regarding " single moment of time".

@Greenshifter he also says "all timelines will be erased from existance" in addition to " cease from existance".

And if the Anihilaargh only destoryed the futre and present, why didnt past Ben like Mr smothy after he recreated the universe, even though he did before he recreated it?


I know Paradox said Eon wanted to rule all timelines, but why would he say " all of casuality" / all of time / existnce if he merely meant timelines? Destroying timelines doesnt have anything to do with casuality, as shown when Vilgax did it.

 

[Greenshifter]

@Firestorm ƒæî very nice summary

@My Area destroying a space-time continuum but characters still being able to travel to the past can happen in fiction. It's the same energy needed to destroy a timeline tho.

@Door not sure if the Big Bang irl qualifies for conceptual manipulation, I'd like some clarification on this.

Vilgax says wiped, not erased. Tho Firestorm's summary does point to it being existence erasure.

I think it's never established whether past Ben likes Mr. Smoothy or not till that episode.

My biggest evidence relies on a flashback with Big Chill where the old Mr. Smoothy design is shown, but I'm not really sure where to look for it.

Euhm Vilgax destroyed all timelines except for one tho and I don't think he destroyed causality. I'm not really sure what the difference is between destroying all of causality and all of time, but if you combine all of time and Eon wanting control over all timelines, you get all timelines that will ever exist, contrary to the CTB which according to me only destroys all present timelines and then let's causality take care of the future ones. This is also the subject of debate in my other thread.

I will also watch Generator Rex and include other dimensions like the Null Void in Paradox's statement but right now only about a hundred dimensions have been mentioned which doesn't really matter to the Chrono Navigator's level of 2B.