A thread on contradictions

[The_real_cal_howard]

So I'm currently in the middle of two different debates on this. Which garners me into making this thread.

We are way too undefined when it comes to contradictions when it's about anything other than raw stats.

If characters do one thing and it's directly contradicted, we assume the high end. Like if they have an ability that's applied one way that they never replicate. Like Goku breathing in space that one time. It's contradicted by later showings. If Goku did something actually impressive, I'm sure people would actually be considering it even if it was contradictory. Heck, a better DB example is Toppo's hakai armor not insta-erasing the rock avalanche that fell on him, despite it being passive in that state. The best examples I have (because they're recent to me) is the Organization XIII being said to not exist despite being capable of being picked up by normal people and Super Sonic lasting days despite the constant contradictions of it lasting seconds. We need to figure out how this is handled. I'm not good with words in OPs so I'll discuss this more in the posts hereafter.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

All in all, outliers can be more than just stats.

 

[Theuser789]

Lasting seconds was never a real thing, that was always gameplay mechanics that went against cutscenes, the days shit is the most blatant

 

[Jinsye]

tldr: cal comes to bitch about sonic and kh ovo

 

[Wokistan]

You're right in that people forget you can have non stats based outliers, but I'd need specifics to work off of and idk the above 3 well enough (though I can't remember any time super sonic only lasts a few seconds)

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

The three days just shows a vague timeskip in which we never see what happens in that timespan (not to mention in that same boss battle not minutes earlier you can lose the form in seconds) and is contradicted by what Sonic told Shadow in SA2. Its just as relevant here as the Toppo and the Organization XIII example.

 

[Bobsican]

I mean, didn't Yhwach lost acausality because it was an outlier, or Barney the Dinosaur not getting EE because it was only done once in the whole series?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

An example of a contradiction that is fine is when Cioccolata hurts Sex Pistols in part 5 of Jojo without a Stand. They have far more showings of being incorporeal than being able to be cut, so the contradiction there can be written off.

 

[Theuser789]

Super forms needing rings are gameplay mechanics, again, there are games where that doesn't happen, you have no time limit, cutscenes Sonic stays in super for minutes even after fights like in Rush, plus assuming Sonic did anything other them stay super would go against Occam's razor, plus in Adventure 2 Shadow wasn't running out, he would disappear because of the power of it, something not related to time limit but experience with Chaos Energy, mind you a problem Sonic didn't have neither Shadow in other fights as well

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Another contraction is Mario characters mid Regen. It's contradicted by the fact that the very same impact instakills him in the Galaxy games.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

There are countless more games where the limit is there than not there. Which is my point. Idk about the Rush cutscene. And Sonic outright says that the form is sustained by rings. No ifs ands or buts about it. And that's not how Occam's razor works. We assume that the dude who just minutes before could be stalled out of his form by Eggman just returned to the state. If we saw Goku in SSJ pre-ROSAT in super saiyan despite knowing they can't keep it for long in two different scenes, we would assume he just returned to the form.

 

[Eficiente]

If you want to rewright the Outlier page and express this notion then that's good and I support it. The page legit says that the outlier has to be for a target's "normal displayed level of power", which is dumb.

 

[Theuser789]

The fact there are games without it proves it's not a canonical thing

And Sonic says he needs Rings to not die, or to press butons to jump, or press X to boost, or, you get the point, Sonic saying he needs Rings is the same when that's not needed

He can be stalled because of gameplay, I don't renember Eggman doing that in Unleashed, intead of using the "ring stall", or when Sonic transformed after being hit in Generations, when he should have no rings, like you seriously shouldn't use a gameplay thing to debunk cutscenes, the Goku comparrasion is a bad example because in the actual story is stated and show, time limit not outside of SA2 Shadow's thing which didn't even affect Sonic, Ring time limit is as canon as Sonic needing rings, is the same shit in being a constant gameplay thing versus literaly everything else debunking it

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

There are games where Mario can survive being crushed yet I'm getting rid of that too with this thread. Needing rings to live is obvious game mechanics. Not the only way to lose when you're SS. And yes, Sonic did need rings on that boss fight. Everything else doesn't debunk it. The only thing that debunks it (as the Rush feat was never given to me) is the Advance instance, which is vague for the reasons I said. You can't write this off as game mechanics when it's one, stated, and two, the only thing that gives SS stakes in a majority of his fights. And you can't compare two instances of him not having the limit to the dozens where he does.

 

[Theuser789]

Like, even in Sonic 2, the first game with Super Sonic, Sonic went super without rings at the end cutscene

 

[Eficiente]

There are games where Mario can survive being crushed yet I'm getting rid of that too with this thread.

Dude, Toon Force+He and others can do that in many games=Not an outlier. Basic math.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Like, even in Sonic 2, the first game with Super Sonic, Sonic went super without rings at the end cutscene

The canonical ending is Tails catching him on his plane. Not to mention just because you can have zero rings doesn't mean you canonically do.

 

[Dust_Collector]

The canonical ending is actually Super Sonic just flying next to Tails without needing to be catched, that's the "bad ending" (Not really bad, just what you get if you don't have all the Chaos Emeralds) you just linked. Also canoncially he has 0 rings, he fights on the Death Egg without a single one and there's nothing else that suggests he could get any while in there.

 

[BlastX]

Yeah and it contradicts Sonic's 3 opening

 

[Theuser789]

They are games when Sonic can lose by running out of time or health bar, rings aren't needed in those, and yes

I explained to you before where the stakes are, in SA2 yiu still lose a life if the Ark crashes on Earth

It's stated as much as needing to press A to jump, literal tutorial shit

Sonic and Blaze spent several minutes talking after the defeat of the Egg Salamender while transformed and Blaze is still Burning even after she goes back to her world

I can because those dozens "instances" simply aren't real, they are gameplay mechanics

 

[DragonEmperor23]

An example of a contradiction that is fine is when Cioccolata hurts Sex Pistols in part 5 of Jojo without a Stand. They have far more showings of being incorporeal than being able to be cut, so the contradiction there can be written off.

https://youtu.be/7f3l94vuuzI?t=862

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Cal, I feel like this thread is a little unorganized.

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.