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I am not being coy. I'm not even a type of person that can pull that off. I've taken what you said to mind and shall stop
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A Small Discussion on Maou Gakuin Resistances
- Thread starter Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
- Start date
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Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
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That's not what I said. Anos resists mindhax because of his magic resistance, and NOT because of his mind being in his source (which is unproven anyways). So the "unconventional resistance" part is what needs nuking, EoD resistances are fine to stay.
Idk man considering the spell literally starts with their flesh decaying I think saying "they died" is by far the smallest reach I've seen in this thread (as most people tend to die when their flesh decays).
No offense, but at what point is an RVR report for this warranted? This sort of senseless aggression has been going on for over a day now.
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I agree that their aggressive comments towards you have been problematic, but I doubt there is much interest amongst the staff to do anything about it at the moment. Eldemade seems to have indicated he won't participate in your threads anymore and i have warned Tatsumi, so hopefully it will improve and if not we can address it down the road when the recent mess is not so fresh.
PrinceofPein
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I am not a supporter of the verse so I will go with what was said and provided and you said this, when I asked for evidence.
So when I asked for proof of both abilities, you said that. So what am I to expect?
All of this mind manp resistance has nothing to do with source so why will source gain resistance to mind manip.
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When did I ever say it was? Deagonx is the one who said this not me. Go ahead and nuke it, it doesn't change the fact that conventional mind Manipulation cannot affect him
Now you're are confusing me. What does flesh decaying have anything to do with anything?
The spell is what made their flesh decay. Flesh can also be caused to decay by means of curse manipulation, Corrosion Inducement, Biological Manipulation, Transmutation and Corruption. The spell is said to corrupts the source. It is also making them insane.
When did I say they died? I said all of those people were perfectly alive when the spell was cast
You asked for proof of soul manipulation not both pain. I'm not claiming anyone in the verse resists soul manipulation. I'm saying that soul manipulation is useless to them. None of you have addressed the issue of the separate mind and soul everybody has in their source or the memories kept in the source.
Okay what? I made that comment to pain not even fujiwara. Who have I been aggressive towards?
Are people actually this vulnerable to the slightest of things? This is the way I talk. I interact in a circle of people where basic insults aren't even insults and rather a form of greeting. I could step out my house and be greeted with a "bastard how far". Slight jabs, passive playful aggressiveness, arrogant sarcasm you name it. I understand different people have varying cultural and social boundaries but you all are too uptight. Loosen up a little. Like I said, I will tone it down
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I think you're missing the fact that the scan itself says that Anos used his spell using only the font? If the soul and mind don't exist within the source, it's Eugo himself says that Arnos is able to use spells using only his source, what else does he need? A statement by the author saying that Eugo destroyed Anos mind, body and soul?
Besides, doesn't the fact that the source itself feels fear that even its owner's conventional mind not was capable of feeling make that obvious? Sources not only can play the same role as the conventional mind and soul, they even play a role better than them.
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How's this rude in anyway lmao.. if anyone is genuinely offended by this then you aren't matured. Lmao rude
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This comment is also rude, so don't direct remarks like this at people in the future.
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How lmao
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The fact that the source feels a fear that even the conventional mind itself was not able to feel does not demonstrate that both have "separate consciousness" (not exactly that)?
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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Anyways, it's been 48 hours since posting the OP, so is there enough consensus to apply the changes? Given that they're not very large.
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Points not Addressed by the Opposition
Thought, Emotion & Conciousness
It is stated that thoughts and Emotions dwell inside the source. Eleonore–magic which creates sources– in other not to fully create life didn't fully create a source but rather created only the thoughts and Emotions inside them"Wh-What is this?! Why is Aske...? Where did you gather all that magic
from?!”
“Thoughts and feelings are grounded in the source. I am Eleonore, the magic
that creates sources.”
“You can’t fool me! No sources are being created anywhere! You and the
ghouls are the only ones here!”
“Making sources here would spell disaster. That’s why I’m only creating the
emotions inside them.”
Zaburo was speechless. His Eyes were wide as he stared into her abyss. “That
can’t be... Creating only the emotions of a source shouldn’t be possible!”
from?!”
“Thoughts and feelings are grounded in the source. I am Eleonore, the magic
that creates sources.”
“You can’t fool me! No sources are being created anywhere! You and the
ghouls are the only ones here!”
“Making sources here would spell disaster. That’s why I’m only creating the
emotions inside them.”
Zaburo was speechless. His Eyes were wide as he stared into her abyss. “That
can’t be... Creating only the emotions of a source shouldn’t be possible!”
~Light Novel Volume 4, Act 1 Chapter 12
“I’m sure I destroyed him,” he murmured.
“The Death Strike Sword was forged after your reincarnation. It should be immune to Agronemt.”
“What you destroyed was the fake I switched in.”
“A fake? No, I’m sure that was Melheis’s source. I saw it with my own Eyes” Zeke muttered, still unable to comprehend the situation.
“You see, I recently learned a new spell. You may even be familiar with it—
you witnessed it yourself over Limnet earlier.”
He gasped in realization.
“Eleonore? No, there’s no way you’d use a new life as a sacrifice!”
“Of course I wouldn’t go that far. However, I did use the spell to create a fake source with no consciousness. Although it looked the same, the source was devoid of life.”
“That can’t be. My Eyes wouldn’t fall for a fake source! The battle wasn’t even that long ago—you wouldn’t have had any time to research Eleonore’s uses”
“The Death Strike Sword was forged after your reincarnation. It should be immune to Agronemt.”
“What you destroyed was the fake I switched in.”
“A fake? No, I’m sure that was Melheis’s source. I saw it with my own Eyes” Zeke muttered, still unable to comprehend the situation.
“You see, I recently learned a new spell. You may even be familiar with it—
you witnessed it yourself over Limnet earlier.”
He gasped in realization.
“Eleonore? No, there’s no way you’d use a new life as a sacrifice!”
“Of course I wouldn’t go that far. However, I did use the spell to create a fake source with no consciousness. Although it looked the same, the source was devoid of life.”
“That can’t be. My Eyes wouldn’t fall for a fake source! The battle wasn’t even that long ago—you wouldn’t have had any time to research Eleonore’s uses”
~Light Novel Volume 4 Act 1, Chapter 15
this creates a distinction between the conventional mind & soul and points out a mind and soul that exists within the source. This point is further supported by Anos casting magic with only his source and Sasha and Misha believing Anos is the Founder not from their heads or mind but from their very sources.
In the case of the twins, both the biological mind (the brain), the conventional mind (the heart–comprising both thought and emotions) were mentioned but it's said their belief has to come from their very sources. Infact, later on the twins asks Anos for an explanation on why their magic had gotten stronger and he tells them to ask their source.
All these line up to later events in the story where the source can be divided into 3 pseudo sources with the combination of all 3 of course giving birth to life with conciousness
The source possesses memories of it's own as characters can think even as only a source, cast magic as a source. The source itself is has a mind and soul of it's own separate from the conventional mind & soul.
Supporting Cases
Characters not completely fleshed out but still their source shows indepence of their mind & soul.Jerga
More supporting evidence to this will be Jerga. Jerga had his source and only his source transformed into magic, a part of the World's Order
“Is that why he converted his source into Aske?”
Her eyes widened. Then she giggled. “You really are amazing. How did
you figure that out?”
“It’s simple, really—when I used Aske earlier, I heard an oddly familiar
voice.” The voice had been a little different than in person, so I hadn’t been able
to recall whose it was at first. Now, though, I was pretty sure it had been
Jerga’s.
“Gods took part in the war back then. Transforming sources into magic is
beyond the realm of human capability, but it wouldn’t be impossible with the
combined power of the gods and holy water.”
The formula for Aske I’d used was based on that from two thousand years
ago. It was the same spell, yet the result had been different—in other words,
the order of the world had been rewritten by the gods.
“It’s just as you say. Commander Jerga gave up his life to commit his
feelings—his wholehearted desire for revenge—into Aske magic.
Her eyes widened. Then she giggled. “You really are amazing. How did
you figure that out?”
“It’s simple, really—when I used Aske earlier, I heard an oddly familiar
voice.” The voice had been a little different than in person, so I hadn’t been able
to recall whose it was at first. Now, though, I was pretty sure it had been
Jerga’s.
“Gods took part in the war back then. Transforming sources into magic is
beyond the realm of human capability, but it wouldn’t be impossible with the
combined power of the gods and holy water.”
The formula for Aske I’d used was based on that from two thousand years
ago. It was the same spell, yet the result had been different—in other words,
the order of the world had been rewritten by the gods.
“It’s just as you say. Commander Jerga gave up his life to commit his
feelings—his wholehearted desire for revenge—into Aske magic.
Shin Reglia
Shin despite being bad at source magic and will be unable to completely transfer all his powers and memories into his new vessel states that while he may forget, his source itself shall remember Anos.
Source magic, the highest grade of which included spells like Syrica, was that which affected one’s source. Anos would be capable of transferring all his power and memories to his reincarnated body, but those who struggled using source magic would reincarnate imperfectly. They would lack power
and memory.
[...]
“I am eternally grateful for your compassion, my liege. Though I may lose my memories in reincarnation, my source will never forget you.”
and memory.
[...]
“I am eternally grateful for your compassion, my liege. Though I may lose my memories in reincarnation, my source will never forget you.”
Melheis Boran
Melheis despite having his memories erased recognizes Anos immediately he sees him, stating his source remembers Anos and is telling him that Anos is the Founder.
Melheis approached me silently. I didn’t sense any particular hostility
from him. He stopped a few feet away from me, activated his Eyes, and
inspected me closely.
Several seconds later, he kneeled on the spot, a single tear spilling down
his cheek
“I have long awaited your return, my most revered liege, Demon King
Anos Voldigoad.”
“Melheis, do you remember me?”
The Demon Elder shook his head. “To my greatest shame, I do not. I was bested by a fiend who erased my memories. Nevertheless, my source
remembers my liege. Now that I’m face-to-face with you, I am sure of it.”
[...]
“By the time I returned to Dilhade, the name of the Demon King of
Tyranny had already changed to Avos Dilhevia. I had no memories, but something about the name always felt wrong to me. The other Demon Elders
had complete faith in Avos Dilhevia, but I’ve always had my doubts.”
“And those doubts have now turned to conviction.”
Melheis bowed his head politely. “They have indeed. My source is telling
me that you are the true Demon King.”
from him. He stopped a few feet away from me, activated his Eyes, and
inspected me closely.
Several seconds later, he kneeled on the spot, a single tear spilling down
his cheek
“I have long awaited your return, my most revered liege, Demon King
Anos Voldigoad.”
“Melheis, do you remember me?”
The Demon Elder shook his head. “To my greatest shame, I do not. I was bested by a fiend who erased my memories. Nevertheless, my source
remembers my liege. Now that I’m face-to-face with you, I am sure of it.”
[...]
“By the time I returned to Dilhade, the name of the Demon King of
Tyranny had already changed to Avos Dilhevia. I had no memories, but something about the name always felt wrong to me. The other Demon Elders
had complete faith in Avos Dilhevia, but I’ve always had my doubts.”
“And those doubts have now turned to conviction.”
Melheis bowed his head politely. “They have indeed. My source is telling
me that you are the true Demon King.”
Leorg Indu
When sources of different levels face off against each other, fear of the greater source can cause the magic of the weaker one to go berserk.
Leorg's source was trembling in fear of Anos source. A fear that Leorg himself didn't feel but his source did. Another case of the source independent action of the mind.
Personality & Memories
Curse King Kaihilam Jiste is a character who has two personalities, the main one being Kaihilam and the other being his lover Jiste.“Hey, so, what was that?” she whispered.
“As you’ve probably guessed by now, the Cursed King has two personalities: his main identity as the Cursed King Kaihilam, but also his lover, Jiste.”
“That makes absolutely no sense.” Sasha glanced at the Cursed King. Although Kaihilam Jiste had an androgynous face, his body was complete male.
“The dual personality isn’t too much of a concern; the trouble comes with how the source and memories change when the identities switch. None of Kaihilam’s memories can be probed while Jiste is in control.”
“How strange,” Misha murmured.
“There’s definitely only one source between them, though, and the Cursed King has no control over when the identity swaps happen.
“As you’ve probably guessed by now, the Cursed King has two personalities: his main identity as the Cursed King Kaihilam, but also his lover, Jiste.”
“That makes absolutely no sense.” Sasha glanced at the Cursed King. Although Kaihilam Jiste had an androgynous face, his body was complete male.
“The dual personality isn’t too much of a concern; the trouble comes with how the source and memories change when the identities switch. None of Kaihilam’s memories can be probed while Jiste is in control.”
“How strange,” Misha murmured.
“There’s definitely only one source between them, though, and the Cursed King has no control over when the identity swaps happen.
While Kaihilam is active, it is impossible to prove Jiste's memories and while Jiste is active, it is impossible to prove her for Kaihilam's memories.
A clear case of memories being inside the source. A change in the personality of the source causes the mind and the memories it harbors to change as well.
Those who have mastered magic and become aware of their source are able to act, think as only a source. Soul Manipulation and Mind Manipulation are useless on them in the first place since the source holds influence over the body, mind and soul and it is also a body, mind and soul of it's own in addition to storing memories and possessing memories of its own which cannot be erased.
There's actually a lot more that wasn't addressed like corruption madness and Necromancy targeting the source, Ennesuone who doesn't have a soul, God's who don't possess minds etc but I'm too tired to write on them
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I'd say so, yes, but given the recent controversy perhaps we should get a couple more people's input.
@LephyrTheRevanchist @DarkGrath can you take a look at the OP and a few of the responses? No need to read through the whole thread, it is largely repetitive. Myself and Glassman think the removal is appropriate.
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To begin with, no it hasn't. The fact that you can look through every message here and claim that it has been addressed repeatedly is just...is a blatant two-faced lie. I have made no mention of Shin, Jerga, Melheis, Leorg in this thread. I've made no mention of Anos telling the twins to ask their own source about anything, you all conveniently skipped over my message regarding Kaihilam and the list goes on.
Frankly for one, I doubt you even Know the point I'm trying to make. Not only does your original analysis in the thread contradict the meaning of unconventional resistance, it also contradicts agreements you have given to fujiwara in past threads and it also contradicts the reasoning of Glassman's judgement.
In that regard I ask you one final time, what is your analysis and what is the point I am making?
Do yourself a favor and answer those questions otherwise, though I have no right or means of vetoing your vote, then you are unqualified to judge this case as not only are you unreliable, you are unable to reach any specific interpretation that isn't inconsistent to the OP you agree with, to the decisions you have made in the past.
The least you could do is address the points there specifically especially since it's a composite message for anyone else who comes here to evaluate. You owe me that much at least considering I spent hours preparing it.
Now by all means, please go ahead and exonerate yourself.
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Here's my opinion of the OP.
From my understanding of the evidence provided, the source is considered to be the "soul and psyche" of a magician, which in our case since soul was previously stated, would be the mind.
If the source is considered to be a conceptual construct which contains those structures within itself, then them having an unconventional resistance to the manipulation of the mind and soul is completely justified as you would necessarily need to interact with the source itself to actually target those structures as they're contain within it.
A good analogy of this would be a box that as a toy inside of it, to grab and interact with that toy, you would need to necessarily interact with that box in some capacity to actually get to the toy as it's inside the box.
I've also seen people in this thread act like just because the source is considered "deeper" compared to those structures it either doesn't actually contain those structures, or wouldn't require the interaction of the source to target those structures. Which doesn't make much sense since:
So with all of that said, I don't agree with this thread.
From my understanding of the evidence provided, the source is considered to be the "soul and psyche" of a magician, which in our case since soul was previously stated, would be the mind.
If the source is considered to be a conceptual construct which contains those structures within itself, then them having an unconventional resistance to the manipulation of the mind and soul is completely justified as you would necessarily need to interact with the source itself to actually target those structures as they're contain within it.
A good analogy of this would be a box that as a toy inside of it, to grab and interact with that toy, you would need to necessarily interact with that box in some capacity to actually get to the toy as it's inside the box.
I've also seen people in this thread act like just because the source is considered "deeper" compared to those structures it either doesn't actually contain those structures, or wouldn't require the interaction of the source to target those structures. Which doesn't make much sense since:
- 1. It's directly stated that the source is considered a magician's soul and mind, an abstract structure containing non-abstract structures doesn't disqualify its "abstract-ness" also, similar to how a Type 2 Concept defining and containing a set of physical structures within its sphere of influence doesn't make the concept not a concept anymore.
- 2. Being considered more "deeper" or "abstract" compared to those structures doesn't somehow negate the fact those structures exist within that "deeper/abstract" structure. You still need to necessarily interact with that structure to interact with the others as they're still contained within it, regardless of if the structure is physical or metaphysical.
So with all of that said, I don't agree with this thread.
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Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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We absolutely cannot treat the source as being the mind and soul. It is very clearly stated to exist deeper than both in the very same passage, so if we assume the source is the mind and soul AND it exists deeper than the mind and soul, what would that mean? That the source exists on a deeper level than... itself? That is a very illogical conclusion we can't assume from a single sentence.
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I believe you're misunderstanding that passage, it isn't saying that the source is someone's soul and mind in the sense of those structures being considered only the source, it's saying, that put simply, it's considered the soul and mind of a magician as it contains those structures. With the previous statement of the source containing one's memory of their life supporting the idea of those structures being independent from the source's own existence, but because it contains both structures, it could be colloquially considered the same.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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It isn't "considered" anything, it's just very plainly stated to be the soul and psyche, which is then immediately contradicted. It containing the memories is cool and all, but that's only a tiny subset of a person's mind, and doesn't include their soul.
Even then, MG characters have shown no legitimate resistance to mindhax on this basis which is odd, right?
Even then, MG characters have shown no legitimate resistance to mindhax on this basis which is odd, right?
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A toy being inside a box doesnt make the box a toy. Its still a box that has toy
And to touch that toy you need to get through the box
And to touch that toy you need to get through the box
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
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Which... isn't even what the text is saying? You're extrapolating something that isn't there.
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It's stated that put simply, as in without deep explanation, it's considered to be one's soul and psyche. Which doesn't innately mean the source of someone = that person's soul and mind. I've already explained why it wouldn't innately be considered as such in my previous post (which you didn't debunk).
Doesn't matter, if it's contained in that metaphysical structure, then those structures would have an unconventional resistance. Simple as.
PrinceofPein
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Canada is contained inside the United States but United States is 100km after you get to Canada.
It does not work like that, both cannot be true.
It either It is or it is not.
It does not work like that, both cannot be true.
It either It is or it is not.
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French woman trying to figure out North American geography and nomenclature be like:
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Bad example. Both countries are clearly separated. None of them are subset to each other.
If you want to make a logical argument, then do one.
If you want to make a logical argument, then do one.
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While you're not wrong here, there is something you are missing.
The source doesn't contain the conventional soul and mind. There is a conventional soul and mind and then there's the source which is also the soul and mind.
Put simply, there's a normal mind and a conceptual mind then there's a normal soul and a conceptual soul.
The source can be split into 3 pseudo sources a combination of which creates a source with life. Those pseudo forms include a source mind, source soul and source body.
Eleonore has created only the source mind to produce emotions. Anos created a source body with no mind or conciousness. Everything can be found here https://vsbattles.com/threads/a-small-discussion-on-maou-gakuin-resistances.154042/post-5774841
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If the "source" is conceptualized as a construct containing other structures, then interacting with those contained structures would require some form of interaction with the source itself.
The reasoning provided in points 1 and 2 from @Deceived3596 also supports the notion that the source, despite being considered "deeper" or more "abstract," can still contain and influence the other structures within it. The abstract nature of the source doesn't disqualify its ability to contain non-abstract structures.
The reasoning provided in points 1 and 2 from @Deceived3596 also supports the notion that the source, despite being considered "deeper" or more "abstract," can still contain and influence the other structures within it. The abstract nature of the source doesn't disqualify its ability to contain non-abstract structures.
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More odd that you don't know what is unconventional resistance definition.
Also try to address arguments properly because I feel you skip a huge amount of Deceived arguments, tatsumi arguments with "it does not make any sense" counter-argument.
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Where is this even coming from?
PhantomØ4
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You had to be trolling with this.
Anyways, metaphysical “depth” doesn’t work like a box. You can spatially encapsulate a concept inside of a soul while the concept lies deeper in the abyss of metaphysicality. We are not talking about an atom inside a quark particle, one does not make up the other.
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Canada is not a state in america?
You're purposely misusing analogy.
When i said inside a box it encompasses it in all direction in 3D
I did not say on the box nor did i say at the box nor did i say under the box or beside the box.
I specifically said Inside as in covered by the box on its entirety. Contained. Sealed. Locked.
You certainly cannot drink from a coconut without breaking its shell nor drilling a hole to drink from
But if you want a better analogy
A fireproof box will protect anything inside it from fire even though what is inside isn't fireproof.
Or idk maybe you cannot destroy the content of another spacetime and everything inside of it without making a portal to that spacetime or not having the range or potency to break through the barrier that separates that spacetime to be independent from others?
PrinceofPein
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The example stands though, since it is, the source contains the mind and soul and it was said that the source exists deeper in the body than the mind and soul.
French woman trying to figure out North American geography and nomenclature be like:
Also there are lots of cases where the mind was affected without affecting the source and the claim here is that there is an unconventional resistance due to needing to go through the source to get to the mind and soul
And the mind manipulation that was shown to me, did not happen that way, it was just straight up affecting of the mind without going through the source.
Meaning the whole argument falls apart since the verse never showed such a thing.
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The mind and soul is not inside the source, the source is a mind and soul of it's own.
Characters who have gained awareness and control as a source think and survive with their source alone because the source takes precedence over those things.
Stop changing the context. The source is independent of the conventional mind while being a mind of its own. Once again your lack of any knowledge regarding MG is blatantly making itself known.
PrinceofPein
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Okay who should I believe, since up above I was told differently
Okay so not every person in the verse has this, where is the proof of someone trying to use soul or mind manipulation on this type of sources and it was failed.
So mind manipulation will still work on the person? Noted
Low budget sherlock holmes, I never claimed to be knowledgeable in the first place, where do you keep seeing that?
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You were not told differently, you are equating the normal mind and soul to be what is inside the source
I said since the beginning that not every rando has this. Pain think a little bit. Why affect what only amounts to 1/3 of the total source when you can affect the whole thing? Alright, Anos wants to destroy you, he should use bebesd and only specifically target the part of the source responsible for thought or consciousness? Why go through that trouble when you can destroy the whole thing?
Yes, if it targets the normal mind which is why resistance to normal mind manipulation was also on the profiles.
Low budget what? I'm not playing as anything. Understand this, when you speak as someone who is 100% sure of what they're saying, you come off as claiming you have that knowledge. You've been here trying to teach others that have more knowledge than you. Even after I compiled information that leads to contradictions and inconsistencies in whatever interpretation you try to give it here https://vsbattles.com/threads/a-small-discussion-on-maou-gakuin-resistances.154042/post-5774841
PrinceofPein
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I was told, read above
And somehow you are not rude? telling someone to think
So essentially you are saying, you have no proof
Except you, yourself provided instances of mind manipulation affecting normal minds, so I really do not see the point of all these menal gymnastics.
tag where I tried to teach others, I made my evaluations based on what was provided, we just do not see eye to eye on it.
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Switched my position to neutral.
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I was not the one who told you that and even then, they're not wrong about the source containing a mind & soul
Oh. My. God. How is telling someone to think rude in anyway? Did you consider your teachers rude If they told you to think about something? Have you never had these directed at you before; "use your medula" "are you incapable of thinking for yourself", "make better use of your brain"? What word would you prefer I use? Ponder? Theorise?
This is the way I talk. All the jargon I end up typing here doesn't even amount to 1% of the vocabulary I use on a daily basis.
Shall I switch to the broken English I actually use in close circles and show you what true rudeness looks?
How about you provide proof of a reason to specifically target only one-third of something when you can effect the entire thing? Affecting a conceptual Mind or Soul actually requires NPI for concepts or CM itself or is someone trying to tell me normal soul manipulation would affect a soul in a verse like DMC?
How does that relate to the mind inside the source? Affecting normal minds yeah– fodder don't have much of a chance against a God that governs thoughts or Anos Voldigoad level mind manipulation– and I also recall saying that there's recorded instances of resistance to normal mind manipulation.
Your analogy based on Canada and the U.S for one? If you're making your evaluations based on what was provided then at least go through all that was provided before jumping to conclusions. I even linked a comment regarding all the relevant things.
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And now I suddenly recall Anos shall put a bunch of people to sleep and manipulate their dreams by casting Nedonnerias on their source
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