A Pica Revision! Again!

[Damage3245]

> You do realize that this would means that the Stone Golem would have to completely shatter everytime it try to move?

What exactly would cause it to shatter? The air hitting it? The footsteps on the ground?

And you know that the only reason the calc is that high is because of assumptions around Pica's speed. Maybe we can simply conclude that the calc was wrong?

After all just because a calc is mathematically correct doesn't mean it is the absolute truth.

 

[Qawsedf234]

To add, stuff like planets have way more KE than their GBE, but it's not like they've broken apart from the force or anything.

 

[The_Prince_of_Counters]

The stone golem would have to scale to it's durability via Newton's Third Law, not the main issues at hand. If it weren't for the biggest issue here I might be hesitant to agree with the OP, however Pica's Stone Golems aren't always that big, thus they'd have fluctuating amounts of KE depending on the size of the golem. So I have some doubts on the legitimacy on this scaling to everything Pica does even if him scaling directly to his stone manipulation gets accepted.

 

[Damage3245]

@Prince of Counters; Newton's 3rd Law applies to when one object is interacting with another object. Pica walking doesn't mean he is hitting himself with about 70 Gigatons of force.

If a character flies at MHS+ speeds, we don't calculate their kinetic energy in order to find their durability.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Also surface area is an aspect to consider with the third law. There's a reason a gun doesn't inflict the same damage on the user as a bullet does. The wider surface area and body movement disperse the energy.

Same should apply with Pica's massive feet.

 

[CinCameron20]

Pica already is 7-A scaling to Zoro who scales to the Golem. Therefore the values would simply be increased to 6-C+/Likely 6-C+ for the same exact reasons. We're not changing standards based on value changes. That's silly.

Fujitora (despite inevitable fanboy-ism) is obviously superior to Zoro, therefore he would also scale, affecting Gear 3rd and partially Gear 2nd Luffy.

@IMade - Zoro tanked and no-sold punches, and while the AP would be somewhat less, it's because we can only calc via PE (Giving the 7-B to 7-A results + the statement that Pica would destroy the Flower Hill with a punch) as KE requires a time-frame and we legitimately can't assume one unless we do the same thing here and calc via average punching speed (lol). Also, Zoro and Luffy both tanked being compressed by Pica's stone ability in their first encounter.

Not to mention, this throws a wrench in scaling as this would imply Pica is > Admirals, Doflamingo and Yonko Commanders in AP when he could barely even hurt Zoro with a solid hit. Walking (6-C+?) >>>>>>>>> a Punch (Barely 7-A cuz of PE). I'm dead.

 

[Eminiteable]

Yeah Cin makes the most sense here.

 

[Damage3245]

> Not to mention, this throws a wrench in scaling as this would imply Pica is > Admirals, Doflamingo and Yonko Commanders in AP when he could barely even hurt Zoro with a solid hit.

We can avoid that scaling issue entirely by not scaling anybody to the calc. And there is no reason to assume any of the attacks Pica used on Zoro scale to this calc.

 

[CinCameron20]

I actually would like to know if it's accurate to use a KE calc on his punches based on recorded arm speeds, but I doubt this would be acceptable by the wiki standards.

 

[Schnee_One]

It is accurate yes, with a big enough size KE is useable, in fact we use these calcs for Sekiro

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree with Cin

 

[Damage3245]

> Zoro tanked and no-sold punches, and while the AP would be somewhat less, it's because we can only calc via PE (Giving the 7-B to 7-A results + the statement that Pica would destroy the Flower Hill with a punch)

What do you mean?

Only one of the calcs listed up above is done through PE, the rest of the calcs for Pica and Zoro are through KE.

 

[Stefano4444]

It is accurate yes, with a big enough size KE is useable, in fact we use these calcs for Sekiro

So what we need is to find Golem Pica Arm's Mass and using the punching speed of an avegare human (or a boxers), to find the KE of Golem Pica's punches?

And could the same method for find Golem Pica's movement speed, be used instead to find its punching speed?

 

[Xulrev]

When the hell did Zoro ever tank or no-sell a golem punch from the large-sized golems?

Everyone in the area gets sent flying horizontally by the impact pressure of Pica's golem fist....including Zoro.

So hell, Zoro doesn't even scale to the fist's AP, let alone the entire golem's.

Further, the argument of Zoro 'halting' the forward momentum of the golem is absurd, since he.....assaulted it from behind

I find it hard to believe that his forward-slashing momentum somehow altered the vectors of its interaction with the golem's equally-forward-moving momentum to backpedal it and halt that entirely.

The feat does not scale, again. A moderator ought to close this thread since it has been debunked in no fewer than four ways

 

[Paul_Frank]

Damage and Xulrev make more sense here, this shouldn't scale to like, anyone

Just because a calc is accepted by calc group people, who just evaluate the math, doesn't mean it should actually scale to anything btw

 

[Dr.Fix]

@Dr. Fix; nope. You're just wrong on this point.
If you want to change it so that they're equal to Pica's Golem, then make a CRT and prove it.

This sort of reply is just sad. I can't agree nor can I discuss something as baseless as "you're wrong on this point". Moving on

@Qawsed do you have any instances where third law does not apply because of size? If so I'd lke to see them and focus on the facts please. That would establish prescedence in this matter and this might be rejected or else finally accepted.

 

[Stefano4444]

@Qawsed do you have any instances where third law does not apply because of size? If so I'd lke to see them and focus on the facts please. That would establish prescedence in this matter and this might be rejected or else finally accepted.

As far i know in this site many characters have scale from much larger characters, regardless of the third law.

Wander (Shadow of The Colossus) is a prime example as he scale from the other colossus, Kratos (back before Ascension) scaled from killing giant monsters, Doomguy also count since his tier come from killing the Titan and Kaido previously scale from Zunesha.

So there is no genuine good reason to don't scale Zoro to Pica just because he latter is much larger.

 

[Xulrev]

As far i know in this site many characters have scale from much larger characters, regardless of the third law.

Wander (Shadow of The Colossus) is a prime example as he scale from the other colossus, Kratos (back before Ascension) scaled from killing giant monsters, Doomguy also count since his tier come from killing the Titan and Kaido previously scale from Zunesha.

So there is no genuine good reason to don't scale Zoro to Pica just because he latter is much larger.

Kaido scaling from Zunesha is hilarious to bring up since that was ALSO wrong scaling, so I rather enjoy that is brought up here. Besides that, Damage, a calc group member, is stating that the Third Law can't be used to scale things in this manner. I also asked MrBambu offsite about this very thing, and he confirmed what Damage stated, so the calc group consensus is this does not scale

But as to your last sentence:

Sure, there's no good reason to not scale Zoro to Pica....if you ignore all the reasons that have objectively been laid out.

1. Pica's base stats do not scale to his golems as the prior CRT I linked proved

2. Pica's golem is made of, explicitly, mundane stone which is easily shattered/sliced/broken.

3. Zoro did not halt the forward momentum of the golem and bodily halt it whilst it was in motion

4. Zoro assaulted the golem from behind and therefore could never have hoped to interact with its forward KE

5. Zoro simply sliced the golem in half, therefore would not scale to its AP


Do I need to keep going, or can we just end this farce already?

 

[Stefano4444]

1. Pica's base stats do not scale to his golems as the prior CRT I linked proved

Again, nobody here is arguing that Zoro should scale to Pica's physical strength, but scale to Golem Pica or more accurate Pica's devil fruit.

2. Pica's golem is made of, explicitly, mundane stone which is easily shattered/sliced/broken.

And yet the same Golem has be show to have a body durable enough to withstand the 6-C KE that it generate by merely walking, without be competely shattered in the process.

3. Zoro did not halt the forward momentum of the golem and bodily halt it whilst it was in motion

4. Zoro assaulted the golem from behind and therefore could never have hoped to interact with its forward KE

Which doesn't matter since Zoro could still severely damage the Golem, when the previously mentioned 6-C KE couldn't.

5. Zoro simply sliced the golem in half, therefore would not scale to its AP

It does scale to its Durability, which is equal to its AP.

 

[Damage3245]

> And yet the same Golem has be show to have a body durable enough to withstand the 6-C KE that it generate by merely walking, without be competely shattered in the process.

The 6-C KE is only derived from an assumption regarding Pica's speed. We could just as easily conclude this by not making the assumption and not treating the calc as fact.

 

[Xulrev]

6-C KE does not apply to regular-old stone in this instance when finding the KE of a character in motion in this manner.

Again, I asked MrBambu about this and he confirmed, from a calc group perspective, THIS IS NOT HOW THINGS WORK ON THE WIKI.

 

[Eminiteable]

Xulrev you need to calm down you've been nothing but toxic throughout this entire thread, take a step back and a break if need be because your behaviour is rude.

 

[Xulrev]

Xulrev you need to calm down you've been nothing but toxic throughout this entire thread, take a step back and a break if need be because your behaviour is rude.

I'm sorry, but what? Stating facts about the workings of the wiki as it pertains to the conversation at hand when people keep ignoring them to force through an inaccurate upgrade while ignoring such context is not rude, it's keeping people accountable.

If anyone has issue with being told they're wrong, they can message me on my wall about it. Any insinuation about my tone or behavior is derived from an outsiders' perspective and is non-existant.

 

[Stefano4444]

The 6-C KE is only derived from an assumption regarding Pica's speed. We could just as easily conclude this by not making the assumption and not treating the calc as fact.

On that i can agree to the most part, although that would only depend by how many people would want to keep the assumption as accurate/valid, if enough people think that the assumption is reasonable then it should be accepted, if not we will just go back with the previous scaling, as for me i don't have particularly strong feeling for now.

However what i'm against firmly is deny the current accepted scaling, ignoring the argument of Zoro damaging Golem Pica, Zoro was clearly show to be the strongest and that Pica, even with his Devil Fruit, had on the defense for the most part and that he only lasted that long because Zoro couldn't hit Pica's physical body, so yes Zoro's AP must scale to Pica Devil Fruit's AP, regardless if it is 6-C+ or 7-A.

 

[Xulrev]

However what i'm against firmly is deny the current accepted scaling, even without the argument of Zoro damaging Golem Pica, it was clearly show during the Dressrosa Arc that Zoro was the stronger than Pica with his Devil Fruit, and that he only lasted of so long was because Zoro couldn't hit Pica's physical body, so yes Zoro's AP must scale to Pica Devil Fruit's AP.

Well yes, but this is a problem of logistics, not energy.

'Guy whose power is to make a giant golem creature that is slow, lumbering, and fragile, but also powerful due to raw mass' lost to 'Guy who can slice giant things in half and is fast'

 

[Eminiteable]

The walking speed seems pretty reasonable.

 

[Aerozz]

I agree with Zoro (6C+) to pica with the reasons above.

Also pica's stone is harder than normal stone coz marines hit him with cannons and it didnt effect him at all.

 

[Kepekley23]

I still agree with Verlux.

 

[Xulrev]

I agree with Zoro (6C+) to pica with the reasons above.
Also pica's stone is harder than normal stone coz marines hit him with cannons and it didnt effect him at all.

Cannon fire in the One Piece world doesn't typically destroy landmass; look to the Buster Calls as a prime example, they level islands but the island itself is intact and no craters are ever even shown. It's a side-effect of the explosions radiating outward, I'd imagine. Perfectly consistent with One Piece stone, actually

 

[Aerozz]

@Xulrev

this is a new world marines they shouldnt use normal cannons espically when they are with an admiral and even so it still didnt do any damage with pica's stone which means its a lot harder than normal stone

 

[Eminiteable]

Cannonballs failing to harm Pica seems fair enough honestly, if it was indeed just regular stone they'd have no issue, unless we're implying regular stone > Whitebeard and Zunisha.

 

[Aerozz]

@Xulrev

also i could say somthing more logical to your logic about the buster call fire dont destroy landmass but

why wouldnt you say that maybe the stones that got damged by buster call is way harder than a normal stone becasue we saw how powerful are the cannons in buster call but it didnt destory the landmass as easily as we thought.

 

[Eminiteable]

The stone in Enies lobby can be interpreted as stronger considering it took many of Luffy's and Lucci's attacks and I mean it is a government facility in marineford they had a wall that resisted Whitebeard's Earthquake's

 

[Aerozz]

also to support that i know its underwater but when zoro sliced the stone underwater he made a small scratch to it, also lucci destroyed that too so wouldnt that make the stones as hard as or little less on landmass too.

 

[Damage3245]

Cannonballs failing to harm Pica seems fair enough honestly, if it was indeed just regular stone they'd have no issue, unless we're implying regular stone > Whitebeard and Zunisha.

If you use that kind of logic then you're also arguing that Pica's durability > Whitebeard and Zunesha.

 

[Eminiteable]

If you use that kind of logic then you're also arguing that Pica's durability > Whitebeard and Zunesha.

I'm implying if regular cannon balls can't destroy stone then yes regular stone >>>> Zunisha and Whitebeard. But neither is the case, these aren't regular cannon balls nor is Pica's stone it seems.

 

[Xulrev]

So we're using headcanon to justify random upgraded cannon balls to fit our assumptions, rather than vice versa which is how feats work?

We know the stone on Dressrosa is ordinary stone. Doflamingo's calc'd busting of Flower Hill, Luffy's calc'd busting of a huge portion of Dressrosa, etc.

Pica melds with stone, explicitly, per his DF power. He does not alter it, he does not enhance it, it is pure, ridiculous headcanon that is being espoused here to fit inaccurate assumptions in an attempt to force everything to fit, instead of accepting the fact that they do not mesh together.

 

[Aerozz]

welll your assumption is wrong too but the most logical one is that we can see that these stones are harder than normal stones you just dont want to accept it for some reasons,


and also your talking about luffy and doffy who should do that easilly even luffy destoryed noah's ship (which harder than steel) with g3 and i highly believe this should be added to one piece world that stones or at least most stones are harder than normal stone.

 

[Xulrev]

Alright, fun question for you here:

What amount of stone is tier 6-C+? Going off this thread, what specific quantity of stone from Dressrosa is 6-C+ in durability?

 

[Aerozz]

why are you asking me to calc the thing this is unrelevant can you answer my question if you cant then that means you accept it.