A Game Called Bullet Hell! (The Lich vs Han Jee-Han)

[Litentric_Teon]

Nooooooooooo, not my favorite Phantom.

Does he have actual resistance to BFR though? Han just lifts his hand up, concentrates for like a split second and boom, they're in a different reality.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

He doesn't, no, but Kaliber just drags him back. Different realities aren't a problem as Bullet Hell is a different reality.

 

[Litentric_Teon]

I gotcha. So they can just take turns going to different realities. Sounds pretty fun.

 

[Litentric_Teon]

Wait until Risci catches wind of this. I'm sure he'll have some valuable input.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Mehbe.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

In the void of Ricsi joining in...

For now I will vote Lich purely through Han being unable to deal with timehax. Summons maybe, but he has no method of negating it. So Lich eventually Danmaku's him to death.

 

[Litentric_Teon]

Actually, no. At worst, this is inconclusive. Han's Danmaku should be far superior to Lich's. Han's versatility should be far beyond that of the Lich, and Han is arguably more intelligent. Not to mention that Han has pratically limitless stamina due to him continuously recovering mana as he fights.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Lich's natural regen allows him to endure unless it does worse than turning enemies into dust. Lich is able to eventually overcome purely because this fight carries on into infinity unless Han manages to incap for twenty four hours, which is unlikely.

 

[Litentric_Teon]

I thought the regening from dust was only him when he transforms?

Han has, multiple times, trained for a month plus without any kind of real food, water, or sleep. Fighting for a day straight should be rather casual for him. With all the tools at his disposal, an incap doesn't seem too difficult. Regening wounds doesn't equal regening stamina. And given that Han's bombardment is far more versatile, I doubt that the Lich will be able to keep up.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Game mechanics. His transformation happened after but in theory he can do it otherwise since it seems passive.

Noted, but that also requires some suitable hax to keep him down. And... what? Lich is always active in Bullet Hell and can fight the Gungeoneer, who can just push through the entire Gungeon pretty easily. Also... versatility is great and all, but that doesn't grant some hax advantage. He just has damage.

For now, my vote is for Lich.

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

Their stamina should be comparable to each other as The Lich has fought people who can do battle in the Gungeon with no rest.

 

[Litentric_Teon]

Game mechanics? Does he regen from being hit by the player as well? If so, I'd be inclined to agree with you.

Han still has his magical shackles of binding, an AoE wave that can dispel all magic in the area, and fool's act which can paralyze the Lich's body and thoughts momentarily, allowing for Han to get in some big damage.

However, what feasible method does the Lich have for actually taking down Han is what I'm getting at. Han has far more tools to push through damage and to defend himself all at once, meaning the Lich would be pressed to get anything through. Not to mention that Han has Low-Mid regen for anything that does somehow manage to get through.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

It's game mechanics that he only displays it in transition. His body automatically reforms from dust, he has dust regen.

Gungeon Magic isn't Magic, from what I can tell. I am working on a blog to explain the nature of EtG but there is evidence that Gungeon follows the credo of "sufficiently advanced technology may be indiscernible from magic" (see: Magic Bullets).

How good is Han's mindhax? Lich resists that sort of thing.

Danmaku to just eventually push through. Also, Low-Mid isn't a huge issue.

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

1. I'm not sure about that. I'm no expert at EtG but maybe Bambu should know about this. He should actually.

2. Paralysis, according to Bambu, is a good way to win against The Lich via incap. Lich might have something to counter that though.

3. Low-Mid regen is not really good if you're shot in the head. You're gonna need Mid regen to recover from that. Again, I don't know much about Lich, so I also don't really know how he's gonna take down Han.

 

[Litentric_Teon]

Han's mindhax is only for his Low 7-C key onwards. Though it's good enough to hax someone who resists mindhax that affects about 400,000 members of the church.

How is his danmaku going to push through? Unless Lich has unlimited stamina, I see no reason why it would push through Han's superior danmaku.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I meant referring to negging thoughts.

What? Unless Han's attacks neg hundreds of rounds just appearing all around him, he's going to be hit.

 

[Litentric_Teon]

Ah, I would assume it would scale similarly. Though it's more of a paraylzation effect that targets an individual person. It doesn't neatly fall under mind manipulation as it paralyzes the body as well.

I mean, he has a spherical barrier that he can spawn at will to guard against attacks.

They're both 8-A, so a singular attack to the head won't one shot him.

Han can spawn dozens of his mana arrows a second, so yes, he can counter.

He also has lightspeed lightning attacks that would blitz Lich regardless. Not to mention elemental versatility and flight. Also, physically, one hundred projectiles worth of danmaku cannot collide with his body at once unless their arrows (though I thought they were hands), or something else of a comparable size. So it's not like he has to block 100 at a time, only enough to cover his physical body. But again, elemental versatility, teleportation, mana barrier, and his own danmaku help with that.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Depends on use. Mindhax can paralyze the body.

Cool. On this site, enough AP will break forcefields. Danmaku spams Lich's AP.

No, it won't, but hundreds will. Which Lich makes appear and covers the room with.

No, he doesn't. Speed is equalized. That includes projectiles.

 

[Litentric_Teon]

True. I guess the in verse explanation for the technique could potentially lend itself to that interpretation.

Forcefields that can be regenerated and layered. Lich will be hard pressed to get anything through. And this also doesn't cover the other options I mentioned for Han. As something like the AoE anti-magic wave would just dispel of all the danmaku with ease.

I thought that didn't apply to attack speed? So are only speed amps and deductions applied during speed equalized matches, and nothing else? This reminds me that Han actually has time acceleration in this key. Though not as high as his Low 7-C self, it's still enough to cause things to happen in seemingly slow motion.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Damn the walls of text...

Eternal suffering curse would definitly be in his summary if Han observes, which he will the moment he sees it.

Would he be saved from being forced into a mirror reality where he is eternal torment as well?

Even if, Han can potionscum to stay alive, and his barrier and speed amp helps with bullet hell. I could see him making a time dilatated ID for himself, train up till he is low 7-C and keep going like that. Or simply go in a 1:30 time dilatated ID and spend time making that power absorption skill he made later on.

I feel that worst comes to worst, Han creates a few dozen golems with elemental intang, makes them keep beating him and tries to figure out something or lets them keep beating him regardless.


What would lich's response be to an army of enemies that can reform from any non-magical (As in, mental energy empowered) attacks? Han can make them in an unlimited way, but he can't control them all at once, and they act like robots (But can still be used for farming).

 

[Litentric_Teon]

Train up till he's Low 7-C...

Ya know, I've legit never thought about that.

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

I'll go vote for Han for now.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Ricsi, yes, he would. He has to be in Kaliber's little Hell. Sealed there.

"Train up to Low 7-C" is a new one, how long would that take?

Lich's response would probably be using the army that lives in Bullet Hell. The Gundead/Jammed there are pretty neat.

 

[Litentric_Teon]

Does the army have the same AP as the Lich?

 

[Litentric_Teon]

Also, This:

"No, they aren't. Because Lich has almost no hax, and you people don't listen to me when I try to explain to you how this character works. The second you put Lich down in the game, you are at the beginning of the Gungeon (Kaliber keeps all people that enter within). And the Lich isn't because he cannot leave. A suitable stamina advantage and decent other abilities (I had real hope for Dante's Instinctive Reaction) would allow one to easily beat Lich just by dodging. Because that is legitimately a possibility, since his BFR is physical and only drags people closer to him into Bullet Hell."

From the black panther match. The person described here who should be able to defeat the Lich sounds a lot like Han. A stamina advantage paired with decent other abilities. He's like an exact fit to that description.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

"Train up to Low 7-C" is a new one, how long would that take?

Lich's response would probably be using the army that lives in Bullet Hell. The Gundead/Jammed there are pretty neat.

Not sure, a few months? With a 1:30 dilatation he should be able to do it under a week tough.

Do they get past elemental intang tough?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

@Ricsi They can hit souls and other beings of the like, so yes.

Also... if he leaves for a few months to train, Lich wins. This is also with BFR dragging Han in over and over.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Golems are souless tough. Oretty sure he's golems only get souls in his 7-C key.

No. Time dilatation. The "With a 1:30 dilatation he should be able to do it under a week tough." was wrote to answer exactly that.

 

[Litentric_Teon]

His BFR is portal based though, right? So unless he spawns it on top of Han or makes it inescapable it seems like Han doesn't have to be sucked in. Also, if Han BFRs both of them to his own ID, and then Kaliber BFR's the Lich back, and Han isn't dragged into it, wouldn't that count as self BFR?

Also, what about what I said above? With regards to Han being precisely the kind of individual you described in the Lich's match against Black Panther.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

His BFR is portal based, but it includes his arm (which isn't actually a part of him, I guess, just a sort of... extra arm? It isn't entirely clear) dragging people in. It can be dodged.

And... Han isn't precisely the one. In fact a person with good Instinctive Reaction would be my best bet, but I haven't found a suitable one yet.

@Ricsi How does time dilation work?

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

He creates a pocket dimension where 30 days is 1 day in the real world.

 

[Litentric_Teon]

I guess that makes self BFR a viable option in that case.

I mean, Han does have things like detect bloodlust, and teleportation. But that description seemed to focus on decent abilities and a stamina advantage, not Instinctive reaction specifically. Though Claire Rouge has instinctive reaction and should be 8-A.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Oh so its like Ethereal Plane in D&D where like

One day is a month

So you can just make tons of shit and get everything down pat

Hm. So, real quick give me a summary, just tell me the exact win con for Han? I think he might be able to win, I'd just like to go down the list to see if I'm forgetting anything notable for Lichy boy.

 

[Litentric_Teon]

I think risci and I have offered up different win cons.

I see Han winning through a combination of observe, danmaku, and possibly his shackles. He has both magical and nonmagical ones. His danmaku should be straight up superior to Lich's, and his barrier and teleportation provide hard counters to anything that wouldn't get through, whereas Lich doesn't have this luxury, though Lich does have regen.

This means Han would likely have to use something like his magical shackles of binding, and essentially just keep him in those shackles. The Lich will be bound up and essentially defeated, unable to do anything.

Also, if Han opts to use Gnome, he could essentially trap the Lich in a hole the size of about half a city block.

Han could also potentially just outlast the Lich. Han's mana is always regenerating, and he has a variety of potions he can use for both his mana and his HP to continue the fight in the off event that those aren't enough.

His golems provide him with the win condition of stuffing the Lich into them. And, unless the Lich's summons are of his AP, Han's golems would go through them. It helps that Han can literally double their stats once a day.

Lastly, the Lich might fall victim to a self BFR in Han BFRs them both to an ID barrier, and Kaliber forces the Lich back, but Han avoids it with either flight, or teleportation.

Han's observe skill and intelligence, I would argue, are what really bring these win conditions together. As he'll have some knowledge of what to do, and always adapts his plans during the fight.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

1. Danmaku and Shackles isn't a good one since it really doesn't offer any solution to Lich's survivability.

2. Trapping Lich isn't an option since that would directly circumvent Kaliber's will, which results in timehax gg.

3. Not really? I don't think so, anyways. Dodging BFR is unlikely, even though it is feasibly possible (again, Instinctive Reaction is an astounding counter to Lich). Outlasting an undead isn't feasible in this scenario, at least not enough to dissuade me.

4. Golems are a maybe. If that'd be Sealing, again, Kaliber timehaxgg.

5. Eh. No, time gets rewound for everyone when Kaliber does it.

Is there not anything else? I know Danny Phantom had a decent win-con even though I find it somewhat unlikely. Essentially, to defeat Lich and not deal with Kaliber, Han needs a win-con that does not directly circumvent the angry god that watches Lich's every move. BFRing him or Sealing him (in such a way that goes beyond Kaliber's own power) triggers timehaxgg. Mind haxing? Timehaxgg. Killing? Timehaxgg.

This is Lich's only notable ability, as in, being cursed to live forever.

 

[Litentric_Teon]

1. If the Lich is sitting in magical shackles such that he's at Han's mercy, that should count as a win con for Han. One doesn't have to be killed to win a fight. Defeat without death is also a viable option, which this is.

2. If they're in Bullet Hell and he traps him in a large hole, would that still trigger Kaliber?

3. Teleportation is instantaneous, so it's not that unlikely. In particular if Gnome is summoned, as she warns Han of incoming threats. Also, unless Lich has practically unlimited, or ever regenerating energy, or something similar, he won't outlast Han. I'm not sure why a guy who literally always regenerates his energy, on top of being able to use things that do it for him, last an undead warrior whose energy is constantly declining is so hard to believe.

4. I don't think it's sealing. I think he's just trapped in a golem. There aren't any special features with it. The golems can just stuff people inside their malleable frame.

5. Time gets rewound during BFR? But if the person wasn't in Bullet Hell in the first place, why would time rewind suddenly place them there?

Danny Phantom's win con is freezing. Han's shackles are similar to that, here.

Also, what AP do the Lich's summons have?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

1. Maybe, but that doesn't do much to prevent Lich from continuing to act against Han. Like at all.

2. Yes, he's sealed in a very much finite space within Bullet Hell. Unable to leave that space. Except through his BFR/Portal thing, which is what makes me think it probably isn't his arm doing the pulling, but still.

3. I mean. He sort of does. Han certainly cannot keep him down just by outlasting. And keep in mind, Han is also dealing with being shot a few hundred times during this.

4. Unsure on that one.

5. Yes. Time gets rewound for everybody involved, placing them back a while before they fought the Lich. Plus, anyone within the Gungeon is passively sealed by Kaliber, as in, cannot get out (unless they resist that sort of thing). Nobody in the Gungeon can actually leave.

No they aren't, not really. Freezing physically keeps you from doing anything, if it is good enough. Shackles just keep you from moving too much, which Lich can neg via teleportation.

Not much. Scales to High 8-C, even though they can harm the Gungeoneer. Game mechanics and such. There are a fair bunch of them, though.

 

[Litentric_Teon]

1. How so? He has inferior lifting strength, so he can't break out. And he can't use magic. Most he could do is maybe run at Han. And then Han could just bind his feet.

2. Gotcha. Point Conceded.

3. Right, but Han has teleportation, barriers, his own, likely superior danmaku. It gets to the point where he can take several actions at once, and literally not drain his mana at all because his regeration is just that insane. Whereas energy is required from the Lich for everything he does.

4. Alright.

5. Does anyone in the Gungeon actually have BFR though? Aside from the Lich? And if time gets rewound, that still feels like it would be a self BFR. This situation seems pretty strange.

The Lich would have to see the shackles coming to teleport. Han can merely point/glance at someone, say "magical shackles" in his head, and they appear on their person. Or dead person in this case.

Fair enough. Though since the golems are 8-A with elemental intangibility, they should really bull the summons largely unless they have some kind of potent hax.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

1. His abilities aren't magical.

3. What makes his Danmaku superior? Also, while we're on the subject, what is Han's AP? Lich scales to ~450 tons.

5. Uh. Yes, actually. Gungeoneer has a teleporter that sends you away. Doesn't work on Lich.

Summons can hit intangibles, too, everything in Gungeon can. Can even interact with embodiments of concepts, oddly enough, via the reaper enemies. But nah, I don't remember their summons having any noteworthy hax. Just sheer numbers.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Han can activate me thinks three infinite mana arrows at the same time? Each spawns dozens of homing mana arrows passively.

Han should be "several times" (As in, a multiplier stated to be several times) above baseline.

Getting past intangibility and elemental intangibility is completly different. Elemental Intang is them reforming from being cut into pieces alunless done magically.