A definitely not so controversial Dragon ball toei upgrade

[Vietthai96]

It says he's both vsbw and joke battles so I don't know if he's either one or both

He is admin for joke battle, but content mod only for vsbw, so his vote on vsbw side isn't count

 

[Hellformer]

Is the afterlife present at top of the living universe? Or is it merely a visual representation?
Quoting from FAQ:
"One of the more straightforward ways to qualify for Tier 2 and up through higher dimensions is by affecting whole higher-dimensional universes which can embed the whole of lower-dimensional ones within themselves. For example: A cosmology where the entirety of our 3-dimensional universe is in fact a subset of a much greater 4-dimensional space, or generalizations of this same scenario to higher numbers of dimensions"

So an infinite sized heaven being a subset of the afterlife would be a good supporting argument but then the problem would be to resolve whether the after life is present at the top of living universe or not. That's because if afterlife was 4-D, the living universe (3-D) should also be a subset of it as per the standards. Being present at top would be a massive contradiction.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

Is the afterlife present at top of the living universe? Or is it merely a visual representation?
Quoting from FAQ:
"One of the more straightforward ways to qualify for Tier 2 and up through higher dimensions is by affecting whole higher-dimensional universes which can embed the whole of lower-dimensional ones within themselves. For example: A cosmology where the entirety of our 3-dimensional universe is in fact a subset of a much greater 4-dimensional space, or generalizations of this same scenario to higher numbers of dimensions"

So an infinite sized heaven being a subset of the afterlife would be a good supporting argument but then the problem would be to resolve whether the after life is present at the top of living universe or not. That's because if afterlife was 4-D, the living universe (3-D) should also be a subset of it as per the standards. Being present at top would be a massive contradiction.

The living universe and the afterlife are separate not contained within eachother, the afterlife life dose have an object the size of the universe in there tho

 

[Vietthai96]

Is the afterlife present at top of the living universe? Or is it merely a visual representation?
Quoting from FAQ:
"One of the more straightforward ways to qualify for Tier 2 and up through higher dimensions is by affecting whole higher-dimensional universes which can embed the whole of lower-dimensional ones within themselves. For example: A cosmology where the entirety of our 3-dimensional universe is in fact a subset of a much greater 4-dimensional space, or generalizations of this same scenario to higher numbers of dimensions"

So an infinite sized heaven being a subset of the afterlife would be a good supporting argument but then the problem would be to resolve whether the after life is present at the top of living universe or not. That's because if afterlife was 4-D, the living universe (3-D) should also be a subset of it as per the standards. Being present at top would be a massive contradiction.

Wdym?, Afterlife above living universe is a contradiction or the other way around?

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

Is the afterlife present at top of the living universe? Or is it merely a visual representation?
Quoting from FAQ:
"One of the more straightforward ways to qualify for Tier 2 and up through higher dimensions is by affecting whole higher-dimensional universes which can embed the whole of lower-dimensional ones within themselves. For example: A cosmology where the entirety of our 3-dimensional universe is in fact a subset of a much greater 4-dimensional space, or generalizations of this same scenario to higher numbers of dimensions"

So an infinite sized heaven being a subset of the afterlife would be a good supporting argument but then the problem would be to resolve whether the after life is present at the top of living universe or not. That's because if afterlife was 4-D, the living universe (3-D) should also be a subset of it as per the standards. Being present at top would be a massive contradiction.

If I'm understanding the premise of this post correctly, then to answer your question the only visual representation we have of the macrocosm's layout, symbolic or not, displays the afterlife as being above the living world within the macrocosm sphere.

If one doesn't accept those visuals, I genuinely don't recall if the site accepts them anymore, then I can't think of anything that depicts the living world being physically situated above the afterlife.

 

[Hellformer]

Wdym?, Afterlife above living universe is a contradiction or the other way around?

My point is that if afterlife is really 4-D with significant axes, then it being comparable to the size of living universe doesn't make sense (if the visuals of the macrocosm are taken as literal).
Realistically, the living universe (inf 3-D) should be infinitely insignificant rather than having relative size.

 

[Killerdrone123]

My point is that if afterlife is really 4-D with significant axes, then it being comparable to the size of living universe doesn't make sense (if the visuals of the macrocosm are taken as literal).
Realistically, the living universe (inf 3-D) should be infinitely insignificant rather than having relative size.

Yeah but we don't use the size depicted on the macrocosm map as literal size of the realm as it is preety much inconsistent also the heaven being universal in size comes from a daizenshu scan rather than depiction of the map

 

[Hellformer]

The living universe and the afterlife are separate not contained within eachother, the afterlife life dose have an object the size of the universe in there tho

Which is something that poses the problem. Or an alternative way to think of this:

• Macrocosm sphere is 4-D
• Afterlife is 4-D and a subset of the sphere
• Living universe is inf 3-D and also a subset of sphere.

But then the living universe shouldn't have it's size the same as afterlife due to being quantitatively inferior

 

[Hellformer]

Yeah but we don't use the size depicted on the macrocosm map as literal size of the realm as it is preety much inconsistent also the heaven being universal in size comes from a daizenshu scan rather than depiction of the map

Then this interpretation is fine I guess...

Which is something that poses the problem. Or an alternative way to think of this:

• Macrocosm sphere is 4-D
• Afterlife is 4-D and a subset of the sphere
• Living universe is inf 3-D and also a subset of sphere.

 

[PrinceofPein]

1. Higher than heaven, you need to know that Afterlife is a dimension, so higher than heaven, literally mean Afterlife is higher dimension

Higher than the universe now means it is a higher dimension than the universe? Please read the FAQ

2. Transcend dimension which the kanji itself mean go beyond/surpassing (i'm lazy to copypaste the texts but translators and OP already posted so you can look at or you will again call me twisting texts). The universe itself is 3 spatial dimensions (i'm exclude the temporal dimension cause we not arguing about time), so literally, in order to go beyond/surpassing 3 dimensions, you need to be 4th dimension at least, and universe is already infinite in size thus 3 infinite spatial dimension, literally only 4th dimension is beyond/surpassing 3 infinite dimensions. Idk how much mental-gymnastic or self-hypnotism to the point of not understand this simply logic

Now, one of the most common scenarios where this question might arise is when dealing with cosmologies involving "higher planes of existence" or similar structures. In such cases, it's very important to note what exactly being a "higher plane" entails in the context of the setting: For instance, it's very common for Heaven and Hell to be defined as higher and lower planes of existence respectively in relation to the normal universe, in which case, "higher" and "lower" tends to simply indicate their relative position in a cosmology, as opposed to any kind of existential status, which is obviously not enough for anything remotely Tier 1.

Again it is in our rules
But hey let us read more

: As said above, "transcending space and time" is a very vague statement by itself and can mean multiple things depending on the context in which it is made, as well as how this characteristic is portrayed in the first place. For example: It is perfectly possible for a statement like transcending space and time to mean that a character is simply "untied" from the universe's spacetime, and is thus unaffected by alterations in the timeline and similar meddlings. Likewise, It's not exactly uncommon for time travel (Or any action / process that affects something through different points in time) to be described as "transcending time and space."

Moreover, it should also be noted that simply existing in some alternate state of existence that lacks time and/or space is not really grounds for any tier in particular, as predating or lacking such things does not translate to being superior to them

Again it is up to you to prove that transcendent in this case means an extra axis of space, which is something that cannot even be proven cause as far as I know about DB, nothing of such exists.

3. the gods of the heavenly land look down on all the world from this place. Again i love how this still prove my point

4. You conveniently leave out the human can't perceive Afterlife part

There is no such thing in the scan, I copied, I copied the text and pasted, it only says cannot be seen from the human world, yes of course it cannot be seen, unless humans can see across an infinite space. And besides it is an afterlife, it holds spiritual value and supposed to be a place of souls.

So at this point you just do not have any credibility at all, your only way to counter against me, the evidences, and others is isolating, cherrypicking texts, saying statements is vague without actually proving, accused me of twisting scans, narrowing standards down to only 1 way to get higher tier

I will not bother replying to this

This is the main argument here
Your entire arguments boils down to
1. Afterlife was called transcendent
2. Afterlife is infinite
3. Afterlife contains Heaven another infinite structure

Or is there anything I have missed? are these not the 3 points that you are using to claim that afterlife is a 4 dimensional space +1 temporal hence low 1-C?
If this is it, it is not remotely enough

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

Then this interpretation is fine I guess...

So I checked our BoG fist clash speed calc and that does not utilize the symbolic macrocosm depiction, rather just using heaven being = universe as means to calculate size.

So while that isn't a calc for the Toei continuity, the universe is still finite for Super, it does seem we don't take the globe model literally for scaling.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

I'm already astonished that we are treating toei Z characters I grew up with having infinite speed and the last thing I wanna see is 5D scaling being stacked over their rating LMAO

But yeah, I wanna see how this one goes

 

[DivineAura44]

Higher than the universe now means it is a higher dimension than the universe? Please read the FAQ


Again it is in our rules
But hey let us read more

Again it is up to you to prove that transcendent in this case means an extra axis of space, which is something that cannot even be proven cause as far as I know about DB, nothing of such exists.

There is no such thing in the scan, I copied, I copied the text and pasted, it only says cannot be seen from the human world, yes of course it cannot be seen, unless humans can see across an infinite space. And besides it is an afterlife, it holds spiritual value and supposed to be a place of souls.

I will not bother replying to this

This is the main argument here
Your entire arguments boils down to
1. Afterlife was called transcendent
2. Afterlife is infinite
3. Afterlife contains Heaven another infinite structure

Or is there anything I have missed? are these not the 3 points that you are using to claim that afterlife is a 4 dimensional space +1 temporal hence low 1-C?
If this is it, it is not remotely enough

How does "transcends the dimensions and understanding" fit in with your interpretation of the afterlife?
The mortal universe is infinite in size as well, it's not like they have any issues perceiving that, so it's clear simply "seeing across an infinite space" isn't the issue here.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

@Qawsedf234 @Firestorm808 @Planck69 @Elizhaa your help here would be appreciated. Truthfully everything is laid out in OP, does this conform to our standards?

As an aside, I will ask for the last time to stop with the off topic discussions, including bs memes. Stick to the topic or don't comment.

 

[Sebas-S.P-san]

Disagree, for the same reason as DarkDragonMedeus.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

Disagree, for the same reason as DarkDragonMedeus.

There argument was immediately replied to and countered, do you have any response to that counter?

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

There argument was immediately replied to and countered, do you have any response to that counter?

Dial it back lil bro let's just let people agree and disagree

Appreciate the enthusiasm but let's not be that aggressive

 

[Ednaxel2]

Then this interpretation is fine I guess...

So I checked our BoG fist clash speed calc and that does not utilize the symbolic macrocosm depiction, rather just using heaven being = universe as means to calculate size.

So while that isn't a calc for the Toei continuity, the universe is still finite for Super, it does seem we don't take the globe model literally for scaling.

We had a whole thread removing the depiction of the Macrocosm as literal so yeah

 

[Vietthai96]

Anyway, back after eating my dinner

There is no such thing in the scan, I copied, I copied the text and pasted, it only says cannot be seen from the human world, yes of course it cannot be seen, unless humans can see across an infinite space. And besides it is an afterlife, it holds spiritual value and supposed to be a place of souls.

i posted wrong translation but let me repost this

Higher than the heavens, transcends dimensions that cannot be seen from the human world,the gods of the heavenly land look down on all the world from this place

Soaring higher than heavens, A world that transcends the dimensions and understanding of the human world. From here, the gods watch over the realm

While the texts can some what different, the meaning still the same

Again it is up to you to prove that transcendent in this case means an extra axis of space, which is something that cannot even be proven cause as far as I know about DB, nothing of such exists.

i, and Op already proved it, you just refuse to acknowledge it, of course it is within your right to not acknowledge thing, and i wonder what is your understanding about DB you spoke of

I will not bother replying to this

This is the main argument here
Your entire arguments boils down to
1. Afterlife was called transcendent
2. Afterlife is infinite
3. Afterlife contains Heaven another infinite structure

As i already explained, it transcend/surpass infinite 3 spatial dimensions, so it can't be 3 dimensions, it must be at least 4 dimensions, supported by the fact that it is beyond human understanding, human can only see 3 basic spatial dimensions, thus Afterlife must possesses at least 4 spatial dimensions.

Mind you, human in DB referring to mortals across the universe, not just earthling, mortal in DB can make spaceship that travel across the universe, can sense energy across universe, can make android that have unlimited energy supply, can destroy universe, etc... and yet Afterlife still beyond their understanding, it is self-explanatory at this point

Or is there anything I have missed? are these not the 3 points that you are using to claim that afterlife is a 4 dimensional space +1 temporal hence low 1-C?
If this is it, it is not remotely enough

I think we can't agree with each others at this point, from my experience talking with you, so let end thing, here, cause the only thing you can counter is quote some FAQ and say this is not enough, that is not enough, at this point, nothing can satisfy your standard so i think we can stop here, let staffs decide thing

 

[Sebas-S.P-san]

There argument was immediately replied to and countered, do you have any response to that counter?

I'm reading the thread, plus, I'm reading robo's response, and it seems like all the more reason to disagree

 

[Darkmon_cns]

I'm reading the thread, plus, I'm reading robo's response, and it seems like all the more reason to disagree

Sorry I probably should of waited before jumping the gun on you

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Is the only argument is that they exist in the same structure and the afterlife is a greater infinity than the living universe?

If so I disagree.

The logic can be used as supporting evidence, but by itself that argument can't work to suggest additional dimensional axises

There's quite few reasons why this won't work

From Subsets of the same dimensional axis to, policy changes to how dimensional sizes work among being the top 2 reasons.

 

[Sebas-S.P-san]

One question, is there any Anti-feat like teleporting to this place from the mortal world, or any three dimensional being interacting with this place?

 

[Omegabronic]

We had a whole thread removing the depiction of the Macrocosm as literal so yeah

thank you for reminding me that i still need to apply my Cosmology CRT alongside that thread

yeah, you are corrected, it isn't a literal representation of how the universes looks like

 

[Sebas-S.P-san]

There argument was immediately replied to and countered, do you have any response to that counter?

I just finished, in fact, it was kind of hard, well, I still disagree.

Mainly that "it is the same size as the mortal world" and then they say it is qualitatively superior, mmm.... I just don't see how that is proven.

Close to the dimensionality thing, I can see it as MGK, yes, only higher layers, but with the same format of structure, osea 3D or 4D, close to the Anti feat, I guess goku can travel between these so...yeah, my opinion hasn't changed, still I have several more counterarguments, but I'd like to read your answers.

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

One question, is there any Anti-feat like teleporting to this place from the mortal world, or any three dimensional being interacting with this place?

Those wouldn't be inherently anti-feats. Goku can use IT, Shin uses Kai Kai, and Whis has his own dimensional travel ability. Those wouldn't be anti-feats as they are specifically abilities shown to be capable of crossing dimensions.

 

[RoninSlayer200]

I think it's better if we just wait input of staffs, this thread is already getting longer than necessary

 

[Ednaxel2]

Mainly that "it is the same size as the mortal world" and then they say it is qualitatively superior, mmm.... I just don't see how that is proven.

I think you’re confusing heaven for being the afterlife. Anyways I’ll stop and just wait for staff input

 

[Vietthai96]

I just finished, in fact, it was kind of hard, well, I still disagree.

Mainly that "it is the same size as the mortal world" and then they say it is qualitatively superior, mmm.... I just don't see how that is proven.

Close to the dimensionality thing, I can see it as MGK, yes, only higher layers, but with the same format of structure, osea 3D or 4D, close to the Anti feat, I guess goku can travel between these so...yeah, my opinion hasn't changed, still I have several more counterarguments, but I'd like to read your answers.

1. No one arguing for qualitative superior, cause it is for 1-A upward, so your argument is irrelevant

2. We don't arguing qualitative superior, so some character can travel to it is irrelevant

Anyway i think we should stop clogging the thread

 

[TheTenno07]

One question, is there any Anti-feat like teleporting to this place from the mortal world, or any three dimensional being interacting with this place?

I just finished, in fact, it was kind of hard, well, I still disagree.

Mainly that "it is the same size as the mortal world" and then they say it is qualitatively superior, mmm.... I just don't see how that is proven.

Close to the dimensionality thing, I can see it as MGK, yes, only higher layers, but with the same format of structure, osea 3D or 4D, close to the Anti feat, I guess goku can travel between these so...yeah, my opinion hasn't changed, still I have several more counterarguments, but I'd like to read your answers.

Those "ANTI-FEATS" only works with 1-A and superior tiers, Remember that qualitative superiority is no longer simply a higher dimensionality, the differences between 4D and 5D are accepted as quantitative in this wiki

 

[OrangeFR]

Agree If Dragonball gets to be Low 1-C before Kirby I’m finna crash out

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Those "ANTI-FEATS" only works with 1-A and superior tiers, Remember that qualitative superiority is no longer simply a higher dimensionality, the differences between 4D and 5D are accepted as quantitative in this wiki

I haven't been keeping up with the post here

But Tier 2 can have anti feats that can destroy 2-A, 2-B and 2-C tiering and collapse them down into Low 2-C sometimes even high 3-A/3-A as the worse.

There's a wiki page that explains these In greater detail here

Universe

The Universe is all of space and time and their contents, including planets, stars, galaxies, all forms of matter and energy. Due to the unknown spatial size of the universe, we use the size of the observable universe as a baseline for universal feats. The observable universe is currently...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

I haven't been keeping up with the post here

But Tier 2 can have anti feats that can destroy 2-A, 2-B and 2-C tiering and collapse them down into Low 2-C sometimes even high 3-A as the worse.

Those are mostly focused on alternate timelines. They have no correlation to the ones related to transcendence.

 

[OrangeFR]

I remember seeing filler of Chi-Chi, Videl, and Dabura dead in heaven, but IDK if we count filler as canon to Toai, and I also don’t know if that would be an anti-feat.

 

[TheTenno07]

I haven't been keeping up with the post here

But Tier 2 can have anti feats that can destroy 2-A, 2-B and 2-C tiering and collapse them down into Low 2-C sometimes even high 3-A as the worse.

There's a wiki page that explains these In greater detail here

Universe

The Universe is all of space and time and their contents, including planets, stars, galaxies, all forms of matter and energy. Due to the unknown spatial size of the universe, we use the size of the observable universe as a baseline for universal feats. The observable universe is currently...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Anti feats that have to do with lower dimensional beings interacting with these realms like 4D and stuff are what I am referring to that are not in themselves anti feats. Being able to interact with something is only an anti feat at levels 1-A and higher thanks to the qualitative transcendence they handle, but in dragon ball the impossibility of crossing realms by crossing a distance has been respected and the mandatory need for special movement techniques remains.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Those are mostly focused on alternate timelines. They have no correlation to the ones related to transcendence.

Anti feats that have to do with lower dimensional beings interacting with these realms like 4D and stuff are what I am referring to that are not in themselves anti feats. Being able to interact with something is only an anti feat at levels 1-A and higher thanks to the qualitative transcendence they handle, but in dragon ball the impossibility of crossing realms by crossing a distance has been respected and the mandatory need for special movement techniques remains.

Is the permise of this CRT to argue an addition temporal axis not 1-A due to QS? I was under tge assumption that current discussions o saw was the classic hypertimeline "Universes inside Universes." Which is why I posted.

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

Is the permise of this CRT to argue an addition temporal axis not 1-A due to QS? I was under tge assumption that current discussions o saw was the classic hypertimeline "Universes inside Universes." Which is why I posted.

We aren't arguing for a 1A addition to the temporal axis, no

 

[TheTenno07]

Recuerdo haber visto relleno de Chi-Chi, Videl y Dabura muertas en el cielo, pero no sé si contamos el relleno como canon para Toai, y tampoco sé si eso sería una anti-hazaña.

Yes, it is considered canon for Toei. And it is not an anti feat, it is made clear that when you die you are transported to the other world, it's not like you just go up and get to the afterlife
Immeasurable speed via being dead

 

[TheTenno07]

Is the permise of this CRT to argue an addition temporal axis not 1-A due to QS? I was under tge assumption that current discussions o saw was the classic hypertimeline "Universes inside Universes." Which is why I posted.

If I understood your comment correctly, no, there is no attempt to obtain 1-A via any means. In addition, hyperlines are considered to be an Uncountable infinite superiority no longer a qualitative one, that is exclusive to 1-A

 

[Vietthai96]

I haven't been keeping up with the post here

But Tier 2 can have anti feats that can destroy 2-A, 2-B and 2-C tiering and collapse them down into Low 2-C sometimes even high 3-A/3-A as the worse.

There's a wiki page that explains these In greater detail here

Universe

The Universe is all of space and time and their contents, including planets, stars, galaxies, all forms of matter and energy. Due to the unknown spatial size of the universe, we use the size of the observable universe as a baseline for universal feats. The observable universe is currently...

vsbattles.fandom.com

i don't want to clogging the thread, but since you post this, i will answer, time is infinite by default, unless proven otherwise, this is written in the standard, the kind of feat you post is anti-feat for 2-A, 2-B, etc... cause the feat mean multiple timelines merged into one, which mean there multiple timelines isn't infinite and get merged, into one, kinda time axes crossed and cut each other thus make these time not being infinite, only the single one that emerged from the merging/collapsing is infinite. thus invalidate 2-A, 2-B, etc..... because if time is not infinite, then Low 2-C get bunked, either just 3-A or High 3-A

But like people said, we not talking about hypertimeline, but we arguing more spatial dimensions