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A definitely not so controversial Dragon ball toei upgrade
- Thread starter Killerdrone123
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GarrixianXD
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While my knowledge of Japanese is limited, 次元 pretty much always a common noun that defines dimensions in the sense of dimensionality; 维度 is the wide term that scientifically usually refers to dimensionality in Mandarin Chinese, with 次元 being a direct synonym that is more commonly seen in ACGN, and the Japanese equivalent to 维度 in common usage. The Hyperbolic Time Chamber is 時の異次元世界じや in Japanese, it contains the term "異次元世界" which defines an independent space with n-dimensions, with 異次元 being the adjective that it is independently n-dimensional and 世界 being the noun that it is a world; it's 世界 that is the noun adjunct that attributes to The Hyperbolic Timechamber being a dimension in a sense that it is a world, not 次元.this argument has been debunked to death here i will show u
Dragonball Canon Cosmology and Cosmos! (OUTDATED)
character-stats-and-profiles.fandom.com
The argument that support this claim is a page of the Daizenshuu stating: “天よりも高く、人間界からは窺い知ることができない次元を超越した天の国神々はこの地から世界のすべてを見おろしている.” - “Higher than the heavens, transcending dimensions that cannot be seen from the human world, the gods of the heavenly lands look down on all the world from this place.” [Literal translation made by DeepL.]
The word “次元” which is translated as “dimensions” and interpreted as “spatial dimensions” in order for the World Beyond to be 5-dimensional. However, within the context of Dragonball which isn’t based on really advanced physics and never discussed about spatial dimensions (i.e 1-D, 2-D, 3-D, etc), this isn’t coherent for a guidebook to talk about a concept that is never mentionned nor relevent to the plot of Dragonball. With the actual context of Dragonball, “次元” is also used to describe worlds/dimensional spaces just like how Elder Kaioshin and Dende reference the Hyperbolic Time Chamber as “時の異次元世界じや” - “Another dimension/world of time” (Elder Kaioshin), “こっちの世界とは次元がちがうから二度と出てはこれません…” - “Because this world is in a different dimension, you can never come out again…” (Dende). The Hyperbolic Time Chamber cannot just be a dimensional axis/spatial dimensions since 3-dimensional characters are able to freely move in this world.
By taking into account how “次元” is used within Dragonball, it is consistent to to the Daizenshuu scan to actually mean “Higher than the heavens, transcending the worlds that cannot be seen from the human world, the gods of the heavenly lands look down on all the world from this place.” We can make the assumptions that these worlds are the Hyperbolic Time Chamber and the Demon Realm, which would mean that World Beyond surpass the entire Living World as a whole. And the meaning of “transcending” these world would reference the fact that the World Beyond is a spiritual realm, where gods, deity that are considered to be superior than humans, exist upon this world and that the very nature of the World Beyond is to be a divine realm. So it conclusion, it means that the World Beyond is a spiritual realm that surpass the Living World in a metaphorical way (i.e: the World Beyond is a divine realm while the Living World isn’t).
And the other translation made by Herms doesn’t change much as it describe the World Beyond to be a “dimensionally transcendental heavenly country”. With the context of the World Beyond be a spiritual realm that possess souls in it, “transcendental” means “spiritual”. Meaning that the World Beyond is a spiritual plane.
so disagree
Also, judging by those scans you sent, the English translation of those pages seems rather wack, considering there was a detailed question asked by some Kai in the raw text, but only translated to "what" in the English text.
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I agree with the thread. Thanks for the translation group for helping here
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how does that work? I've read that silly time blog like 6 times it just seems like one massive association fallacy to assume time works like that for every verse to exist across all of fiction. .4D+1D for 5D would be to prove the V axis is being effected which hasn't been proven you would also have to prove gravity is the 5th dimension anyways. and vise 3D+2D also doesn't work without a association fallacy. Cause you still need the W axis and the V axis to make it 5D so where are they coming from? i am so confused by this. The burden would to prove the 5th dimensional realm is gravity which hasn't been done by this thread if we go with the notion of 3D+2D curves upwards to effect the 5th vector.
The afterlife "transcends dimensions" is not spatial. its above the Universe, which means the distance from earth to say king kais planet would invoke the 4th vector at least in retrospect it still just means the "bubble" illustration is 4D.
None of this invokes the 5th vector. Or proves that gravity is the 5th dimension though. Transcendental in most Japanese stories refers to spiritual or divinity notions not higher spatial coordinates.
"Now for the next part of the argument people argue that the scan refers to spiritual transcendence but this is completely disapproved by the fact the terminology used in the scan is 次元を超越した天の国 (jigen o chōetsu shita ten no kuni) seems to emphasize the fact that it is speaking transcendence in the mathematical sense not to mention the fact that choetsu/transcend is used as a verb here rather than adjective so it talking about spiritual wouldn't fit as a verb with the terminology used in the scan."
the entire scan is not mathematical so none of this matters here. We know the scan is not referring to mathematical or spatial terminology but spiritual considering other guidebooks call it spiritual and vise its above the Universe. Multiple Japanese translators have even said scan is not mathematical. "次元を超越した天の国" is not mathematical btw its more of a religious concept in the artbook then a mathematical one. it uses different symbols then a mathematical one.
We can measure the distance between the earth and the afterlife only requires the 4th vector anyways. So end result mathematically none of this upholds.
So would have to disagree.
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Yes. 次元 is mainly used to express mathematical dimensions in Japanese. Now you can say "高次元" is also used for a more direct approach for higher dimension in mathematics but say 3D would be 3次元 or 三次元 and so forth and so on. idk the "维度" by heart but if you wanted say "dimensionality" you would use the katakana for it ディメンショナリティwhich is the preferred choice in many stories. ""異次元世界" which defines an independent space with n-dimensions, with 異次元 being the adjective that it is independently n-dimensional" I can add to this, ベクトル空間 would be Vector Space, so to add to this the other reasoning is "異次元世界" is a independent space in n-dimensions.
Language barriers suck but yea you got most it correct. Of course even I am oversimplifying all the kajin, katakana etc etc to this,
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Well unless you know of a different way for 3D+2D to make 5D you can happily show it. Anything else is just a massive association fallacy. As far concerned on the axiom backing dimensional tiering vs the later of saying Gr says a 3d objects goes up to the V axis which in turn is basically gravity is the 5th dimension. Ig there is time 2 but idk how you prove time 2 exist.
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Yes you have a time direction in addition to the 3 spacial dimensions. The wiki treats temproal and spacial dimensions as equal.
Usually multiple time dimensions are treated as if they are nested inside eachother as a hyper timeline (you could for example truly stop a time traveler from going back in time by traveling through the greater timeline containing a lesser one of said time traveler was only traveling through the lesser timeline)
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My honest reaction.
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IF a temporal dimension and a Spatial dimension are treated as "Equal" then its not temporal anymore. it wouldn't even be 3D+2D it would just be 5D. Ie its not entirely equal they still separating them for some unexplained reasoning. "Usually multiple time dimensions are treated as if they are nested inside eachother" um no they aren't Theres only one work that exist written down that even comes close to "multiple time dimensions" and its a thought experiment. Um yea you can stop a time travel from going back in time, um no you don't need a greater timeline. thats the whole point of hypertime being a thing in the first place. A 1D object can hold a infinite amount of temporal points, a 2D object can hold a infinite amount so forth so on. If scans are needed let me provide what i mean.
First its not "nested". it looks like this. Ie no amount of dimensions would reach the insecure role of the 5th dimension, Ie unlike Gr 5D arguments via gravity, this is where time 2 is the 5th dimension. the later part is basic hypertime notion. Ie you take 2 timelines if you go back in time to stop the time traveler you don't stop t1 or t2 you just end up making t3 where there was no time traveler and thust you need a t4 and so forth and so infinitely
Also if it was equal entirely there would be no reason for hyperspatial to be 4D, no reason for the W axis to be the 4th spatial coordinate, no reason for the V axis to be the 5th and the axiom of dimensionality itself breaks when you try to say temporal coordinates = spatial coordinates anyways cause you would first have to prove time is physical which just seems like fallacys waiting to happen to try and prove half backed science to end up saying X,y,z,w,v anyways or R^5
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I admit I don't understand all this but I have a strong feeling your issue is with the wiki's standards and not this thread, that be a much wider reaching issue
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Is any of these requirements/prerequsites accepted? Because this are the first time I'm seeing this line of argumentation be used on this site. If so, I'd like to see the thread where it was accepted or the page where these requirements are listed.
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Yeah lol.
TFW you realize this is VSBW and not CSAP. Also absolute lol at 次元 being only "spiritual" or whatever mumbo jumbo that was
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I should also say making a revision on this scale as what you seem to want with what your saying would require reaching out to mods and speaking to them and staff, here in a dragonball thread isn't the place to have how (dimensional tiering on the wiki) works changed
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its not about the standards its about proving the burden at hand that 3D+2D makes a whatever you wanna call a 5D plane i would say whatever floats your boat in this case. ie its one big contradiction if its entirely equal uphold that notion all the way. Just say 5D don't even say 3D+2D. theres also the
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Never said that. I said it usually refers to mathematical terms. Unless its one of those weird works.
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...that 次元 part has been addressed almost two pages ago, but...ok, I guess? Bringing it up now seems pretty useless to me.
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Ah, alright. No worries.
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I have deleted useless posts. Keep to the topic, people.
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Sounds viable, good luck to the OP.
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Just for clarification, it’s arguing that the afterlife is 5-D off the basis of being both an extra spatial dimension above the mortal realm, combined with being much larger than an infinite 3-D space, right?
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Do you have an opinion on the thread?
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No, it's 5d via having 4 spacial dimensions and the one normal temporal one, it only has 1 extra spacial dimension the infinte heaven thing is just to confirm that 4th spacial dimension is infinte in size
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Oh, so being much larger than infinite x-dimensional space to the point the latter appears infinitesimal isn’t enough for a dimension jump, got it.
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I'm not sure myself i was just going over the logic of the OP
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Yeah I’m just checking if this upgrade would go through if it was just, heaven being infinitesimal compared to the afterlife without the dimensional transcendence quote.
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Isn't the gap just like the numbers from 0 to 1. Or wait. Smh i have what Qawsedf234 said idk if i am allowed to Ss the message but i can copy what it said
"Think of 3D cube. You can have a infinite 2D square within the cube. But the cube can have a finite 3rd dimension, since there's an infinite amount of numbers between any two numbers, as long as the 3rd axis has a number greater than 0, it can fit an infinite number of 2D spaces inside of it by just assigning them a different number. It being notable in size means that axis itself is infinite or universal in size. So instead of (∞, ∞, X) it's (∞, ∞, ∞)."
"Because there's an important aspect: Relevant size. A 5th Dimensional axis can separate even an infinite amount of 4D spaces without itself being of infinite size, because all the 4D spaces would need is a vaguely different 5thspatial dimension. Or in other words:
• (∞, ∞, ∞, ∞, 1.0000x)
• (∞, ∞, ∞, ∞, 1.0001x)
•(∞, ∞, ∞, ∞, 1.0002x)
• (∞, ∞, ∞, ∞, 1.0003x)
• etc
To be 5D you have to prove the 4D spaces embeds an infinitely small point"
To me it just seems like all thats happening is we are trying to say is a infinitely sized 4D object is 5D cause it contains 2 or 3 whatever lost tracked infinite sized 4D objects when we still need to prove that even if the afterlife is higher we would still need to prove that there is something higher then 4D is ie the distance between the Universe and afterlife only needs the 4th vector it being infinite in size or not is irrelevant as we still need QS for the whole thing.
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I can not understand what you mean. Only that I have never seen any verse be met with standards like this in a revision
Killerdrone123
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Yes pretty much the afterlife scan gives it the 4th spatial axis and it being infinitely bigger compared to a infinite 3d structure to prove its significance in the 4th axis
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Is there anything showing it’s “infinitely” bigger than the infinite universe? The evidence only seems to prove it massively dwarfs Heaven, but not to an infinite degree.
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I do want to be clear all that is needed to be proven here was that there was a 4D spacial axes and that said axes was infinte in scope to achieve 5D by the wiki's standards.
Hasty12345
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heaven is finite compared to the afterlife
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That dosen't need to be proven (and actually on it's own wouldn't prove 5D to my understanding) just that there is a 4th spacial dimension and that it is infinte in scope, which the heaven thing helps prove
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Yeah I know, I was just curious if being infinitely larger than infinite 3-D space would somehow jump to 4-D space by itself.
Hasty12345
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Being "infinitely larger" wouldn't result in a finite depiction of Heaven. It would need to treat the lower infinity as finite, hence the superiority.
Killerdrone123
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Heaven itself is infinite in size and afterlife dwarfts it to the point that it disappears in its space thus proving afterlife superiority like I have said the afterlife scan is what gives us 4th spatial axis the heaven stuff is just to prove its significance
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also, i agree with this thread, for now (not like it matters since no rights)
the wank will not be broken today
the wank will not be broken today
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Is there any way you could reach out to other staff to evaluate it?
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