(7-0-0) Shiki Tohno (Tsukihime) vs John Doe (Unordinary)

[FantaRin_The_First]

Alternative Title: John's Worst Day Ever ft An Anemic Embodiment of Death Itself

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• The battle will take place in a school gym
• Speed Equal
• Starting distance has them start thirty meters away from each other
• Shiki is in his Tsukihime Tohno Key
• John has access to his powers from his fight with Rowden Royals
• John and Shiki are bloodlusted
• John is given knowledge of Shiki's eyes and its abilities, but not its weaknesses
• John is given ten minutes of prep time
• Shiki's AP and Dura is 125.52 MJs (but has access to dura-ignoring hax), John's AP and Dura upscales from 253 MJs
• Shiki's LS is Unknown, John's LS is Class 5
• Shiki's Range is standard melee range (further by throwing knife), John's Range is standard Melee range, Tens of Meters with Aura Sensing, and up to Hundreds of Meters with copied abilities.

"This is what it means to kill something." (Shiki): 7 (@Rez, @CrackerVolley, @Stillwinston, @Scottycj256, @Popted2, @Cimafranca133, @FantaRin_The_First)

"No more Royals. No more hierarchy. Now, it's finally over." (John):

Shiki's Date Super Plan Fails and he gets beat up by his harem. (Incon):

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Cuz why not... That, and John has very limited options for 9-A opponents in Tsukihime - there are opponents he stomps cleanly (Akiha Tohno), there are opponents that are too bullshit for him (Arcuied and Roa), and opponents he can't really kill (Ciel), so... Shiki was the only choice left to me.

 

[Stillwinston]

Following

 

[Rez]

All shiki needs is an single strike to win. He can kill anything John throws at him. Voting for him because i can't see John winning this.

 

[Scottycj256]

uhhh... i'm pretty sure Shiki (as well as every other 9-A and up Nasu character) has 4-D smurf hax

his dura neg is gonna one shot John Doe

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

pop

Wanna say that Shiki isn't a mage, so he doesn't get 4-D smurf resistance. And wanna point out that to apply his dura neg, Shiki needs to get within knifing distance of John - who can range spam... or copy Shiki's MEoDP and apply it to his attacks.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Also, I want to point out that Shiki needs to poke John in a specific spot to insta-kill him, aka (in NasuVerse terms), needs to strike at John's Point of Death. Any attack that isn't at this point of death, is just a normal dura-ignoring slash (with extreme no-you-can't-heal properties)

 

[Rez]

pop

Wanna say that Shiki isn't a mage, so he doesn't get 4-D smurf resistance. And wanna point out that to apply his dura neg, Shiki needs to get within knifing distance of John - who can range spam... or copy Shiki's MEoDP and apply it to his attacks.

John can't copy shiki's mystic eyes. Magic circuits and aura stuff from unordirnary are quite different and mystic eyes themselves are much more complex than just magic circuits.

While I have not been following fate related stuff on the wiki for some time unless something major has changed meodp should still be smurfy hax.

 

[Rez]

Also, I want to point out that Shiki needs to poke John in a specific spot to insta-kill him, aka (in NasuVerse terms), needs to strike at John's Point of Death. Any attack that isn't at this point of death, is just a normal dura-ignoring slash (with extreme no-you-can't-heal properties)

Shiki just needs to cut any line. Striking at an specific spot is not necessary. Unless he is going for complete erasure. That's only useful for someone like Roa who can reincarnate endlessly.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Is that so?

Hm, made this match with the idea in mind that John could possibly copy Shiki's MEoDP. Wanna see if this match is viable, tho.... and, oh crap, I forgot to put speed equal. Will be fixing that mistake with a edit.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Shiki just needs to cut any line. Striking at an specific spot is not necessary. Unless he is going for complete erasure. That's only useful for someone like Roa who can reincarnate endlessly.

And wait, really? Learn something new everyday.

 

[Rez]

And wait, really? Learn something new everyday.

Yeah tohno's mystic eyes shows him two things lies of death and points of death
Piercing an line kills the target and piercing an point completely erases them from existence.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Yeah tohno's mystic eyes shows him two things lies of death and points of death
Piercing an line kills the target and piercing an point completely erases them from existence.

Eh... Are you mixing up the lines of death and points of death with each other? ... and a bit of Ryougi's MEoDP?

Like... I am 70% sure that Shiki can only cut the lines of death, and just slice through people and/or things like butter and do the thing that causes injuries to be incurable (but things like limbs could still be replaced by a prosthesis). Like the piercing thing you are mentioning only applies to Shiki piercing a person's point of death - at no point in Tsukihime - or in its remake - could Shiki kill somebody without piercing their point of death.

Like the killing people and existence erasering are intercontected with each other via piercing the point?

 

[Jamesthetaker]

If John knew that Shiki could insta-kill him, then he would probably keep a distance with an energy attack. At least, that's what my hazy memories of the webtoon told me.

 

[Rez]

Eh... Are you mixing up the lines of death and points of death with each other? ... and a bit of Ryougi's MEoDP?

Like... I am 70% sure that Shiki can only cut the lines of death, and just slice through people and/or things like butter and do the thing that causes injuries to be incurable (but things like limbs could still be replaced by a prosthesis). Like the piercing thing you are mentioning only applies to Shiki piercing a person's point of death - at no point in Tsukihime - or in its remake - could Shiki kill somebody without piercing their point of death.

Like the killing people and existence erasering are intercontected with each other via piercing the point?

Maybe I am mixing up the shiki's. But even if Tohno can't just inflict death with just lines of death they still allow him to completely negate durability so still voting for him.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

BUMP

 

[TrueKingOfHeroes]

Tohno was able to hit the line of death and the point of death. Either way, his Meodp was able to destroy a Roa's soul who can survive the absorption of the Root, so it must be 1-A smurf hax.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Which only means if Shiki strikes John's point of death - and not if Shiki simply slices John's head-off via cutting his lines.

 

[Scottycj256]

Tohno was able to hit the line of death and the point of death. Either way, his Meodp was able to destroy a Roa's soul who can survive the absorption of the Root, so it must be 1-A smurf hax.

I really hate Fate for this

Shiki can affect 1-A souls but no he can't fight Servants with 5-D to 8-D resistances (and SUPPOSEDLY 4-D Invul and Higher Dimensional Existence)

WoG is stupid lmao (so are Nasu supporters but thats another issue for another time)

 

[Scottycj256]

When DMC and Fate supporters do completely and utterly nonsensical CRTs that make their series so haxxed that nobody else can even touch them, despite much of the context being non-canon in the first place

"its canon bro trust me"

 

[Rez]

Shiki can affect 1-A souls but no he can't fight Servants with 5-D to 8-D resistances (and SUPPOSEDLY 4-D Invul and Higher Dimensional Existence)

From: TYPE-MOON Fes. Official Pamphlet 10th Anniversary Q & A Booklet:
Q: Since Saber and Gilgamesh have physical bodies in Fate/Stay Night, can Shiki see lines on them?

A: Not just when they have a physical body, the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception are effective even when they're in spiritual bodies. For Shiki, if the opponent can be recognized as "living" (not "life", but "live"), she can see the lines of death.

Shiki not being able to defeat servants according to Nasu has nothing to with hax. He himself has said mystic eyes of death preception works on servants.

When DMC and Fate supporters do completely and utterly nonsensical CRTs that make their series so haxxed that nobody else can even touch them, despite much of the context being non-canon in the first place

"its canon bro trust me"

What are you trying to imply?
That the spiral of the root is not 1-A? If so you are free to go ahead and make an CRT.

 

[Scottycj256]

What are you trying to imply?
That the spiral of the root is not 1-A? If so you are free to go ahead and make an CRT.

No, that Servant 4-D Invul/HDE is bullshit, and yes i'm going to make a CRT on it when i get around to playing Fate/EXTRA (which is where the mentions for higher dimensions come from in Nasuverse)

Root is 1-A thats completely irrefutable

 

[CrackerVolley]

Can we stop splitting hairs about how strong the Mystic Eyes trick is and just come to the agreement that John dies if Shiki gets a clean hit in?

 

[CrackerVolley]

Anyways, I voting Shiki. Power armor is pretty useless due to Mystic Eyes and Shiki's fought against people more nimble (e.g. Arcueid) or are capable of throwing out more random stuff to overwhelm opponents than John (namely Chaos).

 

[TrueKingOfHeroes]

No, that Servant 4-D Invul/HDE is bullshit, and yes i'm going to make a CRT on it when i get around to playing Fate/EXTRA (which is where the mentions for higher dimensions come from in Nasuverse)

Root is 1-A thats completely irrefutable

You wanna downgrade Nasuverse just by playing Fate/Extra? it's a brave behavior.

Good luck.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Anyways, I voting Shiki. Power armor is pretty useless due to Mystic Eyes and Shiki's fought against people more nimble (e.g. Arcueid) or are capable of throwing out more random stuff to overwhelm opponents than John (namely Chaos).

Vote counted.

 

[Stillwinston]

Well assuming this match is viable I vote the kid that sees things fra

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Well assuming this match is viable I vote the kid that sees things fra

Counted.

 

[Cimafranca133]

pop

Wanna say that Shiki isn't a mage, so he doesn't get 4-D smurf resistance. And wanna point out that to apply his dura neg, Shiki needs to get within knifing distance of John - who can range spam... or copy Shiki's MEoDP and apply it to his attacks.

John can't copy shiki's mystic eyes. Magic circuits and aura stuff from unordirnary are quite different and mystic eyes themselves are much more complex than just magic circuits.

While I have not been following fate related stuff on the wiki for some time unless something major has changed meodp should still be smurfy hax.

Even if John can copy Shiki's abilities, he still wouldn't be able to copy it (unless he removes all of his abilities). John can only copy 4 abilities at a time. John already has four abilities in this key and he hasn't been shown to be able to remove only one of his abilities.
John has prep time and knowledge of Shiki's abilities so he will probably be careful and try to stay away from Shiki as much as possible. John has been shown to be an excellent fighter even when he's blinded by rage. John has also been shown to be surprisingly accurate when using energy beam/discharge.
However, John probably won't be able to hit Shiki for the most part because of Shiki having Massively Hypersonic Reactions.
Can someone explain to me how Mystic Eyes of Death Perception works?

 

[Rez]

Can someone explain to me how Mystic Eyes of Death Perception works?

In Tohno's case they allow him to perceive conceptual death of things in two forms
Lines of death and points of death
Slicing an part's line of death effectively kills it. Slicing an line effectively requires no force and makes it impossible to regenerate that part of the body.
Certain few lines of death act as a point of death striking these points completely conceptual erases the target for good in their entirety.

Meopd aren't just limited to living things they can kill non living things such as floor and lighting.

 

[Cimafranca133]

In Tohno's case they allow him to perceive conceptual death of things in two forms
Lines of death and points of death
Slicing an part's line of death effectively kills it. Slicing an line effectively requires no force and makes it impossible to regenerate that part of the body.
Certain few lines of death act as a point of death striking these points completely conceptual erases the target for good in their entirety.

Meopd aren't just limited to living things they can kill non living things such as floor and lighting.

What is the range of MEoPD?

 

[Rez]

What is the range of MEoPD?

Close range shiki slices the lines with his knife.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Adding onto this, the points of death that Shiki sees typically can appear in a few different places - i.e... With one person, Shiki might see a point of death in their chest area, and in another, Shiki might see a point of death on their head or neck. Doesn't really matter in where a point of death appears on John's body, since the end result of Shiki getting close to John is going to led to death for him, it doesn't matter if Shiki targets the lines or the point of death.

... Heck, if we regard the bad ends in where Shiki goes mad and turns into a murderous beast, he doesn't really go for the points of death for humans - he just cuts them into pieces by slicing their lines to satisfy his bloodlust. The only people that he specifically pierced a point of death were against literal inhumans.

 

[Scottycj256]

yeah Shiki one shots whether he slices a line or stabs a point, the severity of the one shot varies

Shiki FRA

 

[Nico-v11]

Rowden Royals John feels like the de facto “John’s too powerful with his other power sets so let’s nerf him with this one”.

 

[Cimafranca133]

Adding onto this, the points of death that Shiki sees typically can appear in a few different places - i.e... With one person, Shiki might see a point of death in their chest area, and in another, Shiki might see a point of death on their head or neck. Doesn't really matter in where a point of death appears on John's body, since the end result of Shiki getting close to John is going to led to death for him, it doesn't matter if Shiki targets the lines or the point of death.

... Heck, if we regard the bad ends in where Shiki goes mad and turns into a murderous beast, he doesn't really go for the points of death for humans - he just cuts them into pieces by slicing their lines to satisfy his bloodlust. The only people that he specifically pierced a point of death were against literal inhumans.

Does Shiki need to go near John to cut the lines of death?

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Does Shiki need to go near John to cut the lines of death?

Ye. He has the exact range of attack that a person with a knife would have irl.

 

[Cimafranca133]

Ye. He has the exact range of attack that a person with a knife would have irl.

Ah ok,
Tbh this fight seems a bit stompish, John's only wincon is shooting Shiki with Energy Discharge but the problem is that Shiki has MHS reaction Speed which means he dodge most if not all of John's Energy Discharge Laser.

 

[Popted2]

Shiki FRA

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Shiki FRA

Counted

Ah ok,
Tbh this fight seems a bit stompish, John's only wincon is shooting Shiki with Energy Discharge but the problem is that Shiki has MHS reaction Speed which means he dodge most if not all of John's Energy Discharge Laser.

Hm, I am pretty sure that separate reaction time falls under the affect of speed equal - have seen people assume so, or just do so since it just makes matches unfeasible for no good reason. Let's just ignore it for now.

 

[Cimafranca133]

Counted

Hm, I am pretty sure that separate reaction time falls under the affect of speed equal - have seen people assume so, or just do so since it just makes matches unfeasible for no good reason. Let's just ignore it for now.

Ok, Shiki FRA then