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5-C+ Hashirama ?

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LordWhis

LordWhis

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OK, the 1st of the Post-Revisions CRT threads.

We know for a fact that Base Hashirama is more powerful than 100% BM Mode Naruto/Prime Kurama.

Logically speaking that should make SM Hashirama stronger than 100% BSM Naruto & Sage Mode Kurama. (Who are both 5-C+).

Some will say that Naruto's raw power in this particular form increased massively in the 2 years before the Last but honestly, that is just too much of an assumption for my taste.

This means that all High 6-As should become 5-C+s, this solves 2 scaling problems-

1. Juubito claiming he could destroy the world, he should come pretty close now as an atleast 5-c+.

2. The Juubito-Juuubidara gap being portrayed as much smaller than what are previous ratings for them implied.

Furthermore, we currently have top tiers at High 6-A because of a very casual, semi-passive feat.


I'm willing to accept varying levels of compromise.

Mild Compromise- Give the top tiers a possibly 5-C+ rating.

Moderate Compromise- Give the 5-C+ rating to just 2nd form Juubi, 3rd Form Juubi (4th form juubi is already at least low 5-B) & Juubito.

Massive Compromise- Give 2nd & 3rd form Juubi, as well as Juubito, a possibly 5-C+ rating.

Discuss.

Thank You
 
LordWhis said:
OK, the 1st of the Post-Revisions CRT threads. We know for a fact that Base Hashirama is more powerful than 100% BM Mode Naruto/Prime Kurama.
Click to expand...
As a Ninja, maybe, but in raw power too...? I mean, in the end, that's what matters mostrly

Logically speaking that should make SM Hashirama stronger than 100% BSM Naruto & Sage Mode Kurama. (Who are both 5-C+).
Just because Naruto gets an upgrade in SM, that doesn't automatically mean that Hashirama should get it as well. For starters, because they have 2 different SMs, secondly because Naruto by adding SM to his Kurama Mode was capable of tanking a 6-Jinchuriki-powered-Susanoo-Arrow (I know this was with Six Paths and Sharinnegan, but still - by just adding SM to his attack he managed to nullify a great gap in power). I somehow doubt Hashirama can do that, even though I admit that managing to tank a Susanoo-Armored Kurama is quite something.

Some will say that Naruto's raw power in this particular form increased massively in the 2 years before the Last but honestly, that is just too much of an assumption for my taste.
Seeing how broken is going to become Base Naruto, it's perfectly possible IMHO.

1. Juubito claiming he could destroy the world, he should come pretty close now as an atleast 5-c+.
Did he really claim something like this though? As far as I remember, they all talked about Mugen Tsukuyiomi for the entire time (also there was no motive for Obito to blow up the entire world)

2. The Juubito-Juuubidara gap being portrayed as much smaller than what are previous ratings for them implied.
The Juubito-Juubidara gap IS huge. Obito has a really low control on his Juubi, he can't even use properly his Sharingan and has been beaten by non-godly versions of Naruto and Sasuke! Madara was much more impressive in combat.
 
@rashaustino:


Base Naruto is broken because he can use Chakra from his other forms in base. Such logic would not apply to BSM Naruto.


And yes, Obito claimed he could do this, we said it was hyperbole back when he was only 6-B but now, considering all the upgrades, it has started to be much more possible.
 
I disagree , There's far less assumption in believing that his power increased massively in the 2 years than not, Its very Likely that after gaining his six paths chakra that he was booster overall, I mean Base Naruto went from Multi City block to city level at best to small country, unless your trying to say base naruto during the war was low 6-B? also Naruto is a shonen and something shonen does is the power of escalation, time skip's normally signify a characters maturity in power or characterization, it's a trope used to death, something Naruto falls victim to aswell, also the power of escalation is inconsistent meaning a character can jump tiers if they really need to for the sake of the story, so Naruto getting stronger over the 2 years doesnt surprise me one bit. In Conclusion, I DISAGREE with the upgrade
 
@Shadow: Naruto can use Chakra from other forms in base that is why he has demonstrated this much power in base.
 
Shadowbokunohero said:
the low 6-B feat was done while in base without the assistance of Kurama's chakra
Click to expand...
But Base naruto's ap isn't dependant on form, this was discussed already in the comments of the small planet level+ base Naruto calc & accepted. Also, we have base Naruto as unknown right now.
 
SM Hashirama's most powerful attack is Shin Süsenju and Kurama come unscathed. Also who said 'Base Hashirama' more powerful than 100% BM Mode Naruto/Prime Kurama completely wrong. Only reason Hashirama win against Kurama is Mokuton and it's calming effect and chakra absorption and we know without a host bijuus can't focus their energy as we saw several times. After use of Shin Süsenju make Hashirama exhausted himself as we clearly see in chapter 621 and 626. That means he didn't do this casually as use as a last resort.

First we need to know this: If a person's chakra more potent that person's jutsu more powerful in default. If a person large reserve of chakra and add more chakra to a jutsu (if jutsu don't have a limit) become thatt jutsu more powerful and/or effect more area. Nature Chakra increase person -or bijuu- chakra's power and level immensely and jutsu's become immensely more powerful than their default state.

When Juubi resurrected(?) in incomplete state we see it's chakra reserves. Kurama has nothing even a single drop in a ocean compare to the Juubi and Juubi have 'Nature Chakra' as a deafult.

Juubito so much powerful than BSM Naruto and EMS Sasuke and other character's in the series he defeated because Naruto have other Bijuu chakra and talk to him and Juubito faulty and incomplete Jinchüriki.

Juubidara originally have attuned to Hashirama's cells -Ashura- ,himself reincarnation of Indra and use Senjutsu before becoming Jinchüriki. Also he take 8 tails and half Kurama and this way he resurrect more complete and powerful Juubi but he is not perfect Jinchüriki because Madara's posses Rinnegan with only mixing his chakra with Hashirama's and we know in Narutoverse if you not born that particular power you can't use full potential.

Hagoromo is the perfect Jinchüriki as he become the Jinchüriki of the complete Juubi and he much more larger and powerful chakra and lie force. As I mention above his Yin and Yang in perfectly balance with each other as his Rinnegan awakened(?) with his own chakra.

Edit: In Narutoverse if a person use chakra control techniques person's chakra reserves become larger as we can see in Sakura's case. Naruto can create 'thousands' Shadow Clones in part 1 and part 2 with ease after war there is no reason Naruto can spam Shadow Clone for chakra and mental traning.
 
unknown cause he has inconsistent feats. That Naruto was unconscious and it has nothing to do with AP but durability, he was knocked out, there's no way he could have improved his durability AP while unconscious considering he had most of his chakra released and couldn't make conscious effort to shield him, meaning base Naruto's durability at the lowest is low 6-B
 
Mindovin:

Hashirama himself (who was in base at the time as scans prove) said that 100% BM Naruto had almost as much Chakra as he did. Also, saying SM is a massive amp kinda supports my earlier argument.

@Shadow: Agreed but that doesn't mean 100% BSM Naruto is any stronger than his war arc self. Especially, as it is known that he doesn't make use of six pats chakra in BSM form.

@BFF: why do we consider 6 paths sage mode teen & adult Naruto to be equally strong then. (Also, Naruto getting rusty if anything implies he was stronger as a teen). Lastly, saying that they do not scale at all is far too limiting & almost like giving up, we should definitely add at the bare minimum possibly keys in which we scale to The Last Naruto. So Hashirama should certaintly be High 6-A, Possibly 5-C+ (I personally don't see anything wrong with just plain 5-C+ as the High 6-A feat we scale everyone from was ridiculously casual but I'm willing to compromise).

Also, what do all of you guys think about my compromises.
 
Naruto didn't take chakra from Yin Kurama only connect his chakra with Minato's chakra. Hashirama have chakra but he don't have a jutsu to convert his chakra to attack potency.

Also trought the series Kishimoto wrote Naruto's chakra constantly inconsistent -Naruto can create a thousand Kage Bunshin but can't summon Gamabunta? or Part 2 Naruto only 4 time more chakra than Kakashi this means he can create 100 Kage Bunshin with ease- this reason we must look facts. Base Naruto chakra reserves at least vast as Hashirama maybe more. Two of them reincarnation of Asura but after that two of them separated. Hashirama even without Asura have large chakra reserves as a Senju. Naruto's chakra reserves more larger than Hashirama without Asura as a Uzumaki his chakra reserves higher than Senju, while in the womb he received chakra from Prime Kurama -whiskers-, as a Uzumaki and Senju descendant his chakra level mostly relay his physical prowess -Yang- rather than his mental prowess -Yin- like Uchiha. Last thing about chakra levels some of Naruto's chakra go to the seal to keep it as we see from Kushina's pregnancy.

Naruto or Kurama says gettin rusty in Boruto after nearly 14 year after The Last Movie and he mostly doing paperwork and even then he is still powerful.

0644-012
0644-013
 
I must heavily disagree with the Upgrade. It makes no sense at all. Hashirama defeated Kurama with his Mokuton-Supression, not by other means. Considering that Mito shorty after than had to seal Kurama propably means that his Shinsu Senju did not that much of damage.

Also, SM Hashirama = BSM Naruto seems not that correct. Naruto got a Six Paths Boost inbetween, which would give him yet another boost inbetween.
 
@Heilergott: He wasn't using his 6 paths Chakra when he performed the moon level feat. He is only using 6 paths Chakra when he has + shaped eyes without pigmentatio, that is the hallmark of six paths Chakra being used.

@Mindovin & Heilergott: I don't know why we are arguing this, Hashirama's profile right now agrees with what I said & outright states that Hashi is twice as strong as BSM Naruto.
 
@Whis

Because you can't jump tiers like that and Adult Naruto hasn't used the Asura avatar. And up till now, whoever is stronger between SPSM Naruto from Part 2 vs Current Adult Naruto is still up for debate in the fandom. It'll never be settled unless we get a direct statement or something. Naruto got rusty in Boruto / Naruto Garden, not in The Last when he thrashed Toneri.

Yes, The Last Naruto with Kurama's chakra would humiliate BSM Naruto from the war. I don't understand what's hard to get? You can scale The Last Naruto with Kurama's chakra above BSM Naruto from the war, but you can't scale BSM Naruto from the war to The Last Naruto. It does not make any sense at all. Again, we're talking about a timeskip where it's obvious that almost everyone got so much stronger. You can't backwards scale unless there's an indication that it's fine to do so.

The simple fact that it's a timeskip where characters are known to make big jumps in power, even in cases where it's strange, means you can't scale backwards without proof.

For example, if Darui has a better feat than Madara and Hashirama, it's understandable if you think both of them can scale. But Naruto? Nope.

Yes, they do not scale at all. No compromise, unfortunately.
 
What do people think about a possibly or potentially 5-C+, or any of my other proposed compromises.
 
@BFF: Will you be fine with a possibly or a potentially 5-c+, what about Juubito/Juubi, people seem to be more open to him being 5-C+ (or should I make a separate thread for that ?)

PS: If war arc & adult power levels are up for debate as you say then I don't see what's wrong with cross-scaling. At least in the form of a possibly. Also, if Naruto got way stronger in the last & was rusty by Boruto, that means that there is 1 single extra strong version of Naruto that only made an appearance in 1 movie & never went all out, that at the very least leaves room for doubt in my opinion (& thus a possibly 5-c+ for Hashirama isn't unreasonable)
 
Heavily disagree for Hashirama and i would have agreed for Juubi and Juubito only if he had 8 full pieces, instead of 7 and minor fragments.
 
no assumption is need on ur part whis. he did become stronger over two years. he was barely dealing with neji lvl characters at the 1st part, but when shippuden came up, he was fighting 30% itachi's, deidara (not serious), kakashi pretty evenly, and during the course of the war, he was even fighting madara when in base. if he became that strong in base in just 3+ years, he now obviously got stronger after two more years of training. like, did sasuke not have a casual town lvl feat in the last while in base??
 
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