2-A Star vs the Forces of Evil

[Antvasima]

I would appreciate if Dargoo is willing to clean up the verse.

 

[Antvasima]

Isn't it an incredibly common trope in fiction that your own powers exempt you from their effects?

This is usually the case, yes. If not, glass cannons would be virtually nonexistent.

 

[Galvino]

Besides that, though. Eclipsa isn't in a constant dipping-down state and she certainly wasn't when she was frozen by Rhombulus. Even if dipping down provided that durability, she wouldn't have it if Moon decided she needed to die unless Moon had some kind of stroke and let her go into Mewberty form every time she unfroze her to try and kill her.

The princess in the book didn't have mewberty form, so you don't need that form in order to survive a dimension exploding. Also, even you can somehow be immune to the actual blast, there's still the problem of existing in pure nothingness since there's nothing around her after she blasted the dimension unless the magic also protected her from lack of any existence around her. Again, I'm not stating all of this as fact, again it's more like supporting evidence. I'm not really debating this believing in this and thinking this is the truth, just that we have to take it serious and discuss this.

I'm not really sure what states Globgor has more durability than any princess, let alone the few princesses who can dip down.

I'll grant you that since I'm too lazy to go through episodes for that, but I think it's fair to say that it's at least even. It'll be really weird if the princesses without mewberty form have higher durability than a monster that is considered one of the most dangerous things in the verse. Not to mention how the whole MCH be trying to gang up on him and not do anything, there's a pretty big preponderance of the evidence towards globgor having at least universal durability.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Again, harder to reply but Skywene destroyed a whole other dimension, not the one she was in, so she didn't have to tank anything.

 

[Galvino]

@GiverOfThePeace I'm confused, did it state this in the guidebook?

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

@GiverOfThePeace I'm confused, did it state this in the guidebook?

Yes re-read the scene, she charged up her energy blast from Mewni and destroyed an alternate dimension

 

[Galvino]

@GiverOfThePeace

I read the page before it and it doesn't mention that she was standing in Mewni when blew up the other dimension. She states how she traveled to another dimension, meaning she went there. So unless I miss something and it states that she opened a portal, shot a blast through it and then blew up a dimension, I don't see how we can make reasonable assumption that she did all that. Using Occam's razor, it would be less of an assumption to assume Skywynne stood in the dimension as she blew it up than it would be to assume she shot the blast through a portal. Also, if her goal was to explode a mountain, why wouldn't she be standing in the dimension anyway? She has no reason to be standing behind a portal just to blow a mountain.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Where in that scan does she state she traveled to another dimension? I saw nothing there indicating that.

 

[Galvino]

@GiverOfThePeace Here's the page before the one I posted before. If you zoom in at the bottom, it says she traveled to the other dimension.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Wait I'm confused, are these on the same pages or? Cause the way that dialogue goes in conjunction with the dimension explosion scan implies two completely different timeframes.

 

[Galvino]

Oh okay, my bad, I confused the two events. My mistake. It seems Skywynne traveled to the new dimension and probably blew up some hills and mountains at first, but then afterwards (some other day) decided to split the planet and blew up the whole dimension instead. Since the pages are right next to each other, the dimension (811) that she destroyed is the same that she traveled to in the previous page. So nowhere does it state that she wasn't in the dimension as she blew it up. Though I will admit (caused I missed it before) that she did indeed dip down to do this. However, looking at the images of her glowing, it shows that didn't go into mewberty form. So if she learned to go into that form, she should be able to get much stronger.

 

[Antvasima]

I would appreciate if Dargoo is willing to clean up the verse.

What do you think should be done?

 

[Galvino]

This is usually the case, yes. If not, glass cannons would be virtually nonexistent.

For more evidence for spells from the wand being able to hurt the wand user (Other than the post from earlier about dimension busting) it states here in the Magic Book of Spells guidebook that even fodder spells like "Warnicorn Stampede" can hurt you or, at bare minimum mega lowball, effect you. "Be sure you point your wand away from yourself"

And before the argument about Star not being effected by the time stop spell or something like that pops up from someone, it's more self evident that time stop isn't meant for the caster of the spell than it is that Warnicorn Stampede isn't supposed to effect you. Warnicorn is more of an attack spell (just like the blast of that one spell that destroyed a dimension, which kinda supports some generic spells, like a normal blast, can get to universal levels but I don't want to get into it) while time stop isn't an offensive spell, so thus that's why Star wasn't effected by it. Also Marco wasn't effected by it, which implies the caster can just choose they want to not be frozen. Meanwhile for a dimension busting blast, the wand user cannot choose who it can't be effected by since Skywynne went through the trouble of finding a planet in another dimension filled with barely any life to avoid casualties, but still killed all the worms living on that planet. So it's looking more and more that princesses that can dip down, have (at least) universal durability. I hope we're not gonna be cherry-picking when an attack should effect a princess or not either.

Oh and I forgot to mention, the reason a fodder spell like Warnicorn Stampede can possibility hurt the caster is because it's a spell used by princesses who haven't dipped down. A princess who dipped down isn't gonna get hurt by this. What I'm saying is that dipping down gives you universal durability, while using a spell in base can still hurt you. So it's not an anti-feat. The idea of dipping down giving you this durability makes sense since using magic from the wand is nothing compared to when you dip down.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Lot of stuff to go over. I'll comment later today and try and list out stuff that needs to be cleaned up in the verse.

 

[Greenshifter]

I will only mention here that dimension busting attacks (if it’s a blast) do tend to affect whoever cast them. Zen’o wouldn’t have 2-C dura for instance if this weren’t the case.

 

[Antvasima]

Dargoo:

Thank you for helping out. I appreciate it.

 

[Galvino]

Dargoo:

Thank you for helping out. I appreciate it.

In terms of some downgrades though, Star being Sub-Relativistic I think is incorrect. The only reason people say that, I believe, is because they think she's fast as teenage Marco and somehow teenage Marco is as fast as adult Marco which is just wrong. Unless I'm missing something, there's no reason to assume teen Marco keeps the same speed as adult Marco. His ripped adult body goes away when coming back to his home dimension, but why would he keep his speed as an teen? I think using the speed Star had awhile ago with her being as fast as her dad is more accurate.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I have issues with the speed ratings for other reasons mentioned above, and think it should be removed from Hekapoo entirely.

 

[Galvino]

I have issues with the speed ratings for other reasons mentioned above, and think it should be removed from Hekapoo entirely.

There should probably be another thread for that discussion. For now we should settle and conclude if the princesses have universal durability. I can't really prove if princesses are multiversal by themselves, unless some of the people from before came in.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

For more evidence for spells from the wand being able to hurt the wand user (Other than the post from earlier about dimension busting) it states here in the Magic Book of Spells guidebook that even fodder spells like "Warnicorn Stampede" can hurt you or, at bare minimum mega lowball, effect you. "Be sure you point your wand away from yourself"

The warning is kind of vague and joke-ey and doesn't really go over the specific consequences of misfiring such a minor spell on yourself like that. Granted, I'd take something like Warnicorn Stampede harming wand-users as a pretty nutty anti-feat for the current durability ratings for sure (I mean for Star w/out Mewberty Form).

Like they could have put the warning in there because, even if the wand user isn't harmed physically by the spell, they can be tossed around and trampled over since Star is still a human-sized character with a human weight.

That and Warnicorn Stampede isn't really a great comparison to stuff like time-freezing and dimension-busting spells, as it's a summoning spell and not an omnidirectional AOE spell.

Meanwhile for a dimension busting blast, the wand user cannot choose who it can't be effected by since Skywynne went through the trouble of finding a planet in another dimension filled with barely any life to avoid casualties, but still killed all the worms living on that planet. So it's looking more and more that princesses that can dip down, have (at least) universal durability. I hope we're not gonna be cherry-picking when an attack should effect a princess or not either.

Actually, after reading through that page carefully, that princess seems to be describing a planet and not a universe when she's calling it a "dimension". She describes destroying the dimension as ripping the earth in half, she describes the life in the dimension only relative to the planet she's on, etc etc. I think this was debated above as well.

What I'm saying is that dipping down gives you universal durability, while using a spell in base can still hurt you. So it's not an anti-feat. The idea of dipping down giving you this durability makes sense since using magic from the wand is nothing compared to when you dip down.

I'd say that as a durability feat, then, it's probably an outlier, if we're seriously saying she withstood being in the epicenter of that kind of spell. Like, we see zero references to spells on the level of this destruction in the show proper besides an off-handed comment/joke from Episode 1 and the actual fights between Mewberty Form individuals and equal adversaries has them specifically using far weaker spells with varying degrees of effectiveness. Tier 8 physicals are consistently a threat to Star even when she's dipping down.

On the other hand there are, admittedly not directly provable, interpretations we can take of the feat that don't require her to have that kind of durability - such as the aforementioned firing the spell from a different dimension or that specific spell exempting the user from its destruction. However these interpretations are more consistent with what we see in the show proper with magic having occasionally absurd high ends that don't show up in direct fights.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

I'm going to probably make a version of this thread later down the line when I go through the lore books again. I'm not particularly interested in engaging with this thread anymore considering how some people hijacked the thread to make this an upgrade beyond what we were going for which led to its denial.

I agree with Dargoo though that most of the cast shouldn't be scaling for anything above Tier 8. Going over why would be explaining for like the fifth time on this thread.

 

[Galvino]

I'd say that as a durability feat, then, it's probably an outlier, if we're seriously saying she withstood being in the epicenter of that kind of spell. Like, we see zero references to spells on the level of this destruction in the show proper besides an off-handed comment/joke from Episode 1 and the actual fights between Mewberty Form individuals and equal adversaries has them specifically using far weaker spells with varying degrees of effectiveness. Tier 8 physicals are consistently a threat to Star even when she's dipping down.

It shows in the magic book of spells, in the actual show, "What to do if you destroy a universe". It shows this along with "What to do if you delete gravity". So I wouldn't say it has zero references and why would there be a lot? I don't think anyone in the show has the intention of destroying a universe, they usually want world domination or something.

As for fights with Mewberty Star fighting equal adversaries, in the fight with Meteora, Star never takes any damage (no wounds appear on her) when she is getting smashed into the walls and such. She's trying to not get punched but getting punched could leave her open for getting by the soul sucking beams. She only ever tries her hardest to not get hit by the soul sucking beams that negate durability, even putting up a shield to block but not to block Meteora's physical attacks. The only time the two take damage is when Star gets out of Mewberty form and launches that ball of magic at Meteora to hurt them both. Strange how Star only took damage after going into base. As for Meteora, I never really argued that she has universal durability.

If you can find an anti-feat where Star dipping down or in mewberty form takes actual damage from a physical attack, that would be nice. This whole debate of me bringing evidence and people trying to debunk it without evidence from their end is weird.

 

[Galvino]

Actually, after reading through that page carefully, that princess seems to be describing a planet and not a universe when she's calling it a "dimension". She describes destroying the dimension as ripping the earth in half, she describes the life in the dimension only relative to the planet she's on, etc etc. I think this was debated above as well.

No offensive, but sounds like headcanon considering the pages support my claim (universal durability) when you take the text at face value. Meanwhile the theory of Skywynne opening up a portal from mewni and then blowing up the dimension takes lot of assumptions and mental gymnastics to accept. In the next pages, she starts getting depressed from destroying the dimension by accident and only intended to split the planet. Why would she call the planet "Earth" and then proceed to call the planet Dimension 811? It takes more mental gymnastics for this to make any sense. Not to mention the many examples of when a dimension is named after an important location but yet you can that there's a lot more to the dimension that just that area. This isn't manga where people are mixing the word "World" and "Universe".

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

No offensive, but sounds like headcanon considering the pages support my claim (universal durability) when you take the text at face value. Meanwhile the theory of Skywynne opening up a portal from mewni and then blowing up the dimension takes lot of assumptions and mental gymnastics to accept. In the next pages, she starts getting depressed from destroying the dimension by accident and only intended to split the planet. Why would she call the planet "Earth" and then proceed to call the planet Dimension 811? It takes more mental gymnastics for this to make any sense. Not to mention the many examples of when a dimension is named after an important location but yet you can that there's a lot more to the dimension that just that area. This isn't manga where people are mixing the word "World" and "Universe".

Well, it certainly doesn't take "mental gymnastics" for the 'nuke from other dimension' bit considering that the feat is not described in detail nor is it a feat we get described as it happened. It's also entirely plausible based on previously understood powers wand-users has and has the benefit of allowing the feat to not me a massive outlier when compared to every other spell we see magic users who are dipping down cast barring extremely circumstantial spells like the Whispering Spell and Star merging Mewni/Earth. It's either something that doesn't line up with the more important story beats of the show or it's something that the wand is capable of but not really touched on as a specific spell in the show.

As for the world vs. universe sized, I mean. Do dimensions in SvTFoE even have a set size?

This isn't as bad as a certain verse I won't name by a mile though, don't worry

 

[Galvino]

On the other hand there are, admittedly not directly provable, interpretations we can take of the feat that don't require her to have that kind of durability - such as the aforementioned firing the spell from a different dimension or that specific spell exempting the user from its destruction. However these interpretations are more consistent with what we see in the show proper with magic having occasionally absurd high ends that don't show up in direct fights.

I'd rather take the side with evidence and than the interpretations. These universal feats are consistent if you just take into account that not everyone in this is trying to destroy the universe, so the princesses are not gonna be doing those type of attacks. It's kinda easy for princesses to just simply not destroy where they live.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I'd rather take the side with evidence and than the interpretations. These universal feats are consistent if you just take into account that not everyone in this is trying to destroy the universe, so the princesses are not gonna be doing those type of attacks. It's kinda easy for princesses to just simply not destroy where they live.

I mean, I'm fine with saying that the Wand has spells that can do this, but the moment we're trying to say that any dipping-down user has Tier 2 durability that's kind of where it stops making sense with the show as a whole.

Basically a flat "Tier 2" for dipping down I'd be against, but an extension of the "Varies between Tier 8 and Tier 2" I'd be fine for.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

There is also this feat in the same episode. It's basically the same thing, but you can see a little bit more of the size of the explosion in 1:17

 

[Galvino]

Well, it certainly doesn't take "mental gymnastics" for the 'nuke from other dimension' bit considering that the feat is not described in detail nor is it a feat we get described as it happened.

It would need to be in detail to prove your interpretation right, but for mine, the way the pages describe it, my claim makes more sense.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

It would need to be in detail to prove your interpretation right, but for mine, the way the pages describe it, my claim makes more sense.

Certainly, for the act of nuking the dimension.

However I feel like the "tanking the attack" part of it is far more interpretive and could have involved any number of factors that maintain consistency.

 

[Galvino]

I mean, I'm fine with saying that the Wand has spells that can do this, but the moment we're trying to say that any dipping-down user has Tier 2 durability that's kind of where it stops making sense with the show as a whole.

Basically a flat "Tier 2" for dipping down I'd be against, but an extension of the "Varies between Tier 8 and Tier 2" I'd be fine for.

Tbh, I'm not even arguing for tier 2 anymore, I'm arguing for 3-A or High 3-A at this point. Like I said, I can't prove multiversal attacks. I'll take a "Varies between blah blah blah" but I'm not arguing for Tier 2 anymore. 3-A is provable (like I did before), meanwhile, as far as my knowledge goes, I can't prove Tier-2 for individuals.

 

[Galvino]

However I feel like the "tanking the attack" part of it is far more interpretive and could have involved any number of factors that maintain consistency.

I understand what you're saying, but the sake of which assumption to take, we should take the side that assumes less. Using occam's razor, it would be less of an assumption to assume a princess dipping down could tank a Tier-3 attack than assuming Skywynne opened portal and shot a blast through it when the book doesn't state this. All it states is that she destroyed it.

 

[Galvino]

Basically a flat "Tier 2" for dipping down I'd be against, but an extension of the "Varies between Tier 8 and Tier 2" I'd be fine for.

I'll be fine for that too, but as far what has been proven, "Varies between Tier 8 and Tier 3" makes more sense currently, at least when it comes to individuals by themselves. I still think, imo, that Tier 2 is possible for individuals, I just can't prove it myself. Nonetheless, Tier 3 is the most consistent I believe.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Using occam's razor, it would be less of an assumption to assume a princess dipping down could tank a Tier-3 attack than assuming Skywynne opened portal and shot a blast through it when the book doesn't state this. All it states is that she destroyed it.

If we want to be pedantic about it, occcam's razor would view "surviving the destruction of a universe" as something far more outrageous than "avoided the destruction hitting them", since we don't know either for certain due to this being an off-screen feat.

That said we aren't looking at this feat in a vacuum. My point is that we see zero feats like this, durability wise, for top tier magic users in the show proper, with most direct fights peaking at Tier 8 with some extremely conditional spells peaking at Tier 2, spells that don't scale to durability anyways.

 

[Galvino]

If we want to be pedantic about it, occcam's razor would view "surviving the destruction of a universe" as something far more outrageous than "avoided the destruction hitting them", since we don't know either for certain due to this being an off-screen feat.

Occam's razor would that suggest we go with the simplest explanation possible. We know for a fact that Skywynne traveled to dimension 811, at least to blow up mountains, so we know stepped foot on it before. While it doesn't state that she was standing on the planet when she planned to split it in half, but it doesn't state she wasn't on it or that she on mewni. To think that the book meant that she stood on mewni, made a portal, then shot a beam at the planet, takes way more thinking and its more complicated than simply stating that she tanked the attack.

That said we aren't looking at this feat in a vacuum. My point is that we see zero feats like this, durability wise, for top tier magic users in the show proper, with most direct fights peaking at Tier 8 with some extremely conditional spells peaking at Tier 2, spells that don't scale to durability anyways.

To be fair, I don't think we ever see a princess get hit by a blast that could destroy the universe because no one attempts that. Also, for users who dipped down, I don't believe we ever saw someone get hurt with visible wounds on them. The only times those princesses were in danger, when they're dipping down, is when an enemy hits them with a one shot ability that ignores durability, like soul sucking or those swords the solarian warriors used. So far, as far as anyone has presented, there hasn't been any contradictions to universal durability, which is needed to prove it's an outlier.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

We know for a fact that Skywynne traveled to dimension 811, at least to blow up mountains, so we know stepped foot on it before. While it doesn't state that she was standing on the planet when she planned to split it in half, but it doesn't state she wasn't on it or that she on mewni. To think that the book meant that she stood on mewni, made a portal, then shot a beam at the planet, takes way more thinking and its more complicated than simply stating that she tanked the attack.

You seem to be using Occam's Razor without the context of what we already know from SvtFoE - we know that what you just described is perfectly and consistently possible with the variety of spells they can cast. We don't know, however, that dipping-down magi can tank universal blasts based on anything else in the series. It isn't really "simple" for the magic to block out something that potent either - we need to assume that she can withstand the initial blast and have all the associated powers they'd need to exist after an entire dimension is yeeted.

The only times those princesses were in danger, when they're dipping down, is when an enemy hits them with a one shot ability that ignores durability, like soul sucking or those swords the solarian warriors used. So far, as far as anyone has presented, there hasn't been any contradictions to universal durability, which is needed to prove it's an outlier.

I mean, it's a single feat in a book and that feat is never remotely reached for durability in the show. There's a such thing as outliers existing due to having zero supporting feats while a verse otherwise occupies a much lower tier.

I'm pretty sure Star gets physically harmed in that state though and I'll go through the fights for scans.

 

[Galvino]

we need to assume that she can withstand the initial blast and have all the associated powers they'd need to exist after an entire dimension is yeeted.

Shows here that Skywynne deleted gravity and shows how some people are dead, but then herself can lasso the planet and spin it. So we know having magic can protect you from the conditions of space. So the idea of a princess existing and still being alive after a dimension is destroyed seems likely. If it takes more than just surviving in space to survive without living in a dimension or something, then let me know.
Also once again, Skywynne calling the planet a "planet", not dimension.

Also in the youtube video below, we see Star fly around in space (or in between dimensions or something, god knows, let's say space), and is perfectly fine.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

So we know having magic can protect you from the conditions of space. So the idea of a princess existing and still being alive after a dimension is destroyed seems likely. If it takes more than just surviving in space to survive without living in a dimension or something, then let me know.

If we're talking Tier 2 then that'd include the destruction of spacetime. She'd need a lot more esoteric resistances than breathing in space to survive that.

 

[Galvino]

If we're talking Tier 2 then that'd include the destruction of spacetime. She'd need a lot more esoteric resistances than breathing in space to survive that.

Just talking Tier 3-A to High Tier 3-A. I still think Tier 2 is possible but it's not what I'm going for right now.

 

[Antvasima]

Let's stop going around in circles here. Dargoo's conclusions can probably be applied at this point.

 

[Galvino]

Let's stop going around in circles here. Dargoo's conclusions can probably be applied at this point.

I mean go ahead, I already agreed with Dargoo on mostly everything. I just wanted to make the last point of princesses having (at least) Tier 3-A clear and it hasn't been decisively debunked. If my guidebook scans and arguments are gonna be dismissed anyway, then fine. I just think it was fair, consistent with the series, and at least a consideration for "Varies from Tier 8 to Tier 3" extension is only fair.