Lifting Strength Vs Punching Strength (Tatsumaki vs Broly | 22 - 37 - 1)

[Kachon123]

Too bad, the votes are too close.

Not how it works.

You can't attack null something infinitely above your power. That's not how it works.

She'd just redirect the ki blasts

And the LS attack null is not based on the gap between her TK and Broly's physicals. It needs to be an actual absolute value that is strong enough to put counter-force to the attack. The counterforce here needs to be multiversal, which Class Z is NOT. She can't deflect a 2-C AP Ki Blast/Shockwave.

You can't have it both ways. If Dragon Ball characters can get LS from the forward force of Ki blasts, that means a counterforce with LS above said value is enough to redirect them.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

This would only be incon if grace ended without a difference of 3 votes after 72 hours.

Monday 17:19 plus exactly 72 hours ends at Thursday at 17:19 (5:19 PM). It's literally not over. Hell, it's not been 48

 

[Kachon123]

Monday 17:19 plus exactly 72 hours ends at Thursday at 17:19 (5:19 PM). It's literally not over. Hell, it's not been 48

Grace started Monday 22:29 and ended exactly 24 hours after that on Tuesday 22:29. That was several hours ago.

 

[Gamin_Yoon23]

Can't broly just flex his ki at 0.67% power and atomize Tatsumaki

Yeah even a minuscule amount of his Ki would kill her granted his 2-C rating and all.

Why would this even work

Psychokinetic energy is present. As God Bind did with Goku’s Ki, God Bind will come into contact with Tatsumaki. It doesn’t even need to physically reach her I’m pretty sure the Psychokinetic energy that’s engulfing Broly would help his God Bind reach her. Since she possesses that energy she would be equally affected as with her own energy. Even pushing GB stuff aside there’s still the AOE nuke. His aura could very well much throw her off balance due to its overwhelming pressure or AP based SI or whatever you want to call it.

(Ki users can passively induce fear and insecurity into opponents that can sense their presence through the power of their auras which is bigger when the user has malicious ki, forcing a sensation of being crushed and paralyzed

I checked her supernatural willpower justification and as I stated before time and time again, I have no knowledge of OPM but I don’t think anything here suggests she’d retain composure nigh instantly after being inflicted by this. It’s quite vague actually and there’s no scans at all.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Grace started Monday 22:29 and ended exactly 24 hours after that on Tuesday 22:29. That was several hours ago.

and it isnt a static or permanent thing. The votes change.

 

[azontr]

I would personally argue that this is a stomp in Broly's favor and should not be added to either profile. Sending Broly to space or BFRing him will do basically nothing to prevent Tatsumaki's immediate death.

 

[RM97]

Voting for Broly FRA

 

[Kachon123]

and it isnt a static or permanent thing. The votes change.

Grace is disrupted when there's no longer a difference of 3 or more votes on both sides. Between Monday and Tuesday, that did not happen.

 

[Delusionaltx2]

Is there a way for me to genuinely contact an authority in the forum to stop people from claiming something that's objectively untrue.

You're claiming Class Z LS from a Moon level character can REDIRECT A MULTIVERSAL LEVEL amount of energy, which would imply MULTIVERSAL LEVELS of pressure, and require MULTIVERSAL LEVELS OF FORCE to redirect.

The multiversal aspect of it comes from its AP not it's mass, it's actual mass is maybe vaguely above class T

So no, she wouldn't really need multiversal amounts of pressure or anything like that here, just higher LS than broly which she has

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Not how it works.

It is. There wasn't a proper debate, nor has there been enough time for people to change their minds after a debate, as most of the votes were cast when ONLY one side of the argument was presented. It's contentious to say those votes even counted towards grace. Do you need me to ask staff about this, or can you just recognize that it's unreasonable to consider grace before a proper debate can take place?

You can't have it both ways

We don't.

To redirect 2-C AP, you need to overcome it's force and momentum with an equal or relative amount of energy/work. Class Z is not enough to deflect 2-C, that's logic and I won't let you make stuff up to justify a multiversal level attack being deflected by "barely planet level" LS. It's energy, and Tatsumaki can't bend 2-C energy. Either get me a feat on that level or stop claiming this.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

The multiversal aspect of it comes from its AP not it's mass

"it's mass", it's a pure form of energy. Yes it comes from its mass.
It comes from its energy. It produces forces, do you think energy is just "magic bullshit that produces specific damage"? No, it's energy. She can't bend an amount of energy that requires forces infinitely above her caliber.

So no, she wouldn't really need multiversal amounts of pressure or anything like that here, just higher LS than broly which she has

It's basic physics.

 

[Kachon123]

It is. There wasn't a proper debate

There was an entire 2 pages of debate before grace finished.

nor has there been enough time for people to change their minds after a debate

What "enough time" is for versus threads has been standardized and defined as 24 hours for ages.

ONLY one side of the argument was presented

This is disingenuous. @Gamin_Yoon23 and others have been arguing for Broly since the first page.

 

[azontr]

It is. There wasn't a proper debate, nor has there been enough time for people to change their minds after a debate, as most of the votes were cast when ONLY one side of the argument was presented. It's contentious to say those votes even counted towards grace. Do you need me to ask staff about this, or can you just recognize that it's unreasonable to consider grace before a proper debate can take place?

I would recommend maybe calming down a bit. It's not nearly as serious as you are making it out to be (even if I do agree that Broly does win rather effortlessly as well). Unfortunately, no matter how proper the debate seems to you, grace is grace and grace is seemingly over (or if it isn't it has yet to be disrupted). The rules are the rules. If the match is applied and you believe it to be an improper ruling, the fight can always be redone in a different thread.

 

[Enter_Bluey]

Guess I'll vote tats in the end. I mean, have db chars used shockwave while binded by tk? (I think it was a struggle vs vegeta for this reason until he went god to blitz)

If not bfr, dura his organs while restrained or smthin

 

[Killerdrone123]

Tatsumaki is not deflecting this

Image Chest

Post with 1 views.

imgchest.com

Given broly is bloodlusted and literally in the form where he is berserk he is going straight for this and danmaku

 

[Ozcantabak]

Broly for Qawdesf' reasons, but i think it's over anyways.
Got to ask tho, in order to deflect/redirect attacks do you need to have comparable ap and ls, or just one of them?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

The rules are the rules

Nope. The validity of the argumentation has always been far more prominent and important than "FRA trains", so it really doesn't matter. People have voted and tied this match, and they're not getting ignored just because people wanted to cast a vote at the speed of light.

There was an entire 2 pages of debate before grace finished

If the votes were cast based on a false claim that Tatsumaki can bend 2-C attacks, that's just not valid. It's a verifiable incorrect claim. Literally, let's just call staff and ask what they think. I'll do it for you.

 

[Delusionaltx2]

"it's mass",

Dawg I'm on mobile typing this at like 12 am in the morning

Relax

it's a pure form of energy. Yes it comes from its mass.

Huh? Are you trying to say that the mass of the ki blasts and their AP are 1:1?

It comes from its energy. It produces forces, do you think energy is just "magic bullshit that produces specific damage"?

The mass and the energy clearly aren't 1:1 so how does this change anything?

And honestly with how ki works in db i'd say yes, they do treat it as magic BS that produces a specific amount of dmg.

No, it's energy. She can't bend an amount of energy that requires forces infinitely above her caliber.

Why would it require forces infinitely beyond her Calibur when the energy and the mass aren't 1:1?

 

[azontr]

Nope. The validity of the argumentation has always been far more prominent and important than "FRA trains", so it really doesn't matter. People have voted and tied this match, and they're not getting ignored just because people wanted to cast a vote at the speed of light.

Okay, and you can say and believe that, but that won't make it true. The match is over. Make a new one.

 

[Kachon123]

If the votes were cast based on a false claim that Tatsumaki can bend 2-C attacks, that's just not valid. It's a verifiable incorrect claim. Literally, let's just call staff and ask what they think. I'll do it for you.

A debate is considered notable, in this context, if it features a lengthy debate over an aspect not directly listed on profile.

• Examples of such are standard tactics (if not listed), ability mechanics and (unlisted) potency, interaction between abilities, weaknesses, verse equalization, potential methods to circumvent resistances and immortalities, potential learning or growth they could achieve in the timeframe of the fight, whether they could escape long enough for prep based abilities to come into play, etc.
• If the final verdict did not have a minimum difference of three votes a grace period for inconclusive of 72 hours will begin. The other rules for inconclusive will still apply; grace for inconclusive will only be added if both parties had a notable debate.

A notable debate occurred and incon grace was never reached. Call any staff member and they'll tell you the same exact thing.

 

[Delusionaltx2]

If the votes were cast based on a false claim that Tatsumaki can bend 2-C attacks, that's just not valid. It's a verifiable incorrect claim. Literally, let's just call staff and ask what they think. I'll do it for you.

Seeing as how staff literally agrees that you can move an object/character with significantly higher AP (With appropriate LS ofc) than you I'm actually okay with bringing staff into this

It's not like tatsu is trying to crush the ki blasts or anything so yea bring staff

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Dawg I'm on mobile typing this at like 12 am in the morning

Relax

I'm not poking fun of your spelling, I'm quoting what I'm replying to.

Huh? Are you trying to say that the mass of the ki blasts and their AP are 1:1?

E = MC^2. Some guy invented this formula a few decades before DB, don't remember his name, I think it was Vegapunk or sum'

The mass and the energy clearly aren't 1:1 so how does this change anything

Energy = the ability to do work, which is defined as the application of a force over a distance.
To change its momentum and inertia, you need to produce counterforce.

Energy = 2-C, which is basically an aleph-n amount of force where n is the amount of space-times.

Class Z Lifting Strength = Finite amount of force

Finite < Infinite.

Therefore, Class Z is insufficient to change the momentum of a Ki Blast.

Why would it require forces infinitely beyond her Calibur when the energy and the mass aren't 1:1?

How do you think energy is transferred to the target to cause damage? It's through force, either from the shockwave, the heat, the explosion, or just by pushing the target. You need to produce more energy than it has to change its direction. Even then, how would she do that against a Kiai, which is literally just an energized shockwave.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Okay, and you can say and believe that, but that won't make it true. The match is over. Make a new one.

A notable debate occurred and incon grace was never reached. Call any staff member and they'll tell you the same exact thing.

I'm done debating basic logic with you.

Seeing as how staff literally agrees that you can move an object/character with significantly higher AP than you

????

A form of energy is not an object or a character. A character's AP is unrelated to their mass. A form of energy and its AP is everything related to its pressure/force/mass, etc.

 

[azontr]

You're not debating basic logic. You're arguing against the objective rules the site uses to manage matches. Your choice to ignore this due to your perceived annoyance at Broly's defeat is not a debate, it is you being a pedant.

 

[AmonInChains]

Pre-Stellar LS (capped at Class 10)

 

[Delusionaltx2]

I'm not poking fun of your spelling, I'm quoting what I'm replying to.

Ah alright then

E = MC^2. Some guy invented this formula a few decades before DB, don't remember his name, I think it was Vegapunk or sum'

So you do realize that getting mass from energy is against wiki rules right? (Ofc there are very special cases but this isn't one of em)

Something about fiction being inconsistent with that y'know

Energy = the ability to do work, which is defined as the application of a force over a distance.
To change its momentum and inertia, you need to produce counterforce.

Energy = 2-C, which is basically an aleph-n amount of force where n is the amount of space-times.

Class Z Lifting Strength = Finite amount of force

Finite < Infinite.

Therefore, Class Z is insufficient to change the momentum of a Ki Blast.

Again, you can't really use E = MC^2 to get mass from energy since fiction is really inconsistent with that

For example let's say I have a human 19 yr old character named BOB. BOB has relativistic+ combat speed but he's physically just 9-B

If we used E = MC^2 to calculate the energy of BOBs punch then BOB should not be 9-B but he still is

This is just how fiction works

How do you think energy is transferred to the target to cause damage? It's through force, either from the shockwave, the heat, the explosion, or just by pushing the target. You need to produce more energy than it has to change its direction.

With how ki seems to operate in db, the AP would occur from the explosion or shockwave rather than raw pushing force/KE

Even then, how would she do that against a Kiai, which is literally just an energized shockwave.

Turn the shockwave into a vortex and hurl it upward (along with broly too)

 

[Delusionaltx2]

A form of energy is not an object or a character.

May not be a character yeah but a ball of energy sure as hell classifies as an object

A character's AP is unrelated to their mass.

In that case why are we saying that tatsu needs a specific amount of AP to overcome it's mass??

A form of energy and its AP is everything related to its pressure/force/mass, etc.

Sorry but just for confirmation are you claiming that AP and Force are the exact same thing????

 

[Delusionaltx2]

Pre-Stellar LS (capped at Class 10)

I find it kinda hilarious that f***ing kingpin could low-key beat tf outta goku in an arm wrestling contest

 

[GodlyCharmander]

You're not debating basic logic. You're arguing against the objective rules the site uses to manage matches. Your choice to ignore this due to your perceived annoyance at Broly's defeat is not a debate, it is you being a pedant.

First of all, "objective rules"? The problem is that the rules only state when a match may be added. They do not state that all later discussion becomes irrelevant. You're saying that.

You lack comprehension on what these rules even try to prevent in the first place. You're calling someone pedant for having a bit of common sense and understanding what the rules entail, instead of being a robot that follows them to their most literal sense. This actively punishes supporters for not seeing the match before 14 votes for tatsumaki were cast. In fact,
I can use other Vs Matches and Staff statements to prove that the rules favor the new argument and votes to be valid.

This principle is literally stated in the page:
"the winner is determined by the side having better constructive arguments, rather than one word/one sentence votes, and inconclusive calls hinge on whether there was a notable debate over an aspect not directly listed on profile."

It quite literally doesn't make an ounce of sense to impede the new argument to sway voters, and invalidate their input because of an arbitrary grace period.

Qawsed's point introduced a genuinely new line of reasoning that the earlier voters never had in front of them when they cast their votes. Treating those earlier votes as equivalent in weight to votes cast after the full argument is just freezing the debate at an artificially early and incomplete stage and calling that the final word. If the wiki's verdict system is built around constructive arguments deciding outcomes rather than raw vote totals, then a vote total built substantially on pre-Qawsed votes doesn't actually reflect a verdict on the constructive arguments. If a single argument is responsible for changing the perceived quality of one side's case, then ignoring that argument results in a verdict that no longer reflects the side with the better constructive arguments

EXAMPLES:​

• Diavolo vs DIC Link: After researching some matches, In this debate, after the Grace Period several participants brought forward new evidence. The moderator First Witch pointed out that the "grace period is not a strict rule nor a countdown to end the debate" and agreed that the discussion had been "prematurely decided."
• Moritzva (former staff) literally said that it doesn't make sense to pull this "the discussion can't continue anymore" because of grace since new arguments are appearing
• Eficiente, also staff at the time, agreed.

There's also the Boruto vs Kaido example where his match was literally contested and got hate because the new information that proved Kaido would lose came up, invalidating votes, and they ignored it. It's not a me thing, it's been a thing for a WHILE

 

[Hecky2222]

Idk why you all arguing about grace. It would be better to let thread rest. Opinions and votes change time by time. It is ok to get close votes.

I don't think we need to close thread cuz "Grace passed within 24hrs", let ppl see args, vote and wtv.

 

[MrTayman616]

E = MC^2. Some guy invented this formula a few decades before DB, don't remember his name, I think it was Vegapunk or sum'

A form of energy is not an object or a character. A character's AP is unrelated to their mass. A form of energy and its AP is everything related to its pressure/force/mass, etc.

That's not how it works. That isn't how we apply mass or give LS either.

No but it would be 0.75c compared to Broly's 0.01c.

This wouldn't apply as wincon since it's a speed advantage she normally wouldn't have though.

To redirect 2-C AP, you need to overcome it's force and momentum with an equal or relative amount of energy/work. Class Z is not enough to deflect 2-C, that's logic and I won't let you make stuff up to justify a multiversal level attack being deflected by "barely planet level" LS. It's energy, and Tatsumaki can't bend 2-C energy. Either get me a feat on that level or stop claiming this.

Why? Someone who punches at 2-C level, you can stop the person or move the person with superior LS.

If you're saying "It doesn't apply to physical attacks but just energy beams" even though they'd be the same with that kind of logic, it still wouldn't work as they'd actually require to have a feat&statement that shows it to be the case.

Or we'd just give everyone "Immeasurable LS with energy beams" and they'd just use their energy beams to lift something with immeasurable mass as they'd have equal mass even though they wouldn't have anything to support it.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Just close this thread already if it is done

Also, you have to acknowledge that the fact that although they have limited lifting strength as portrayed multiple times, even relevant to their training, they can deflect multiversal attacks or whatever, which goes to show how one doesn't need to have such ridiculously high LS to even deflect or block an attack in this verse

 

[GodlyCharmander]

So you do realize that getting mass from energy is against wiki rules right

You are mixing two separate issues.

I am not arguing for getting mass from energy. I am arguing that 2-C energy output still carries 2-C force and 2-C momentum. The question is what kind of physical effect that energy output produces in the clash.

That is the end of the relevant point.

Again, you can't really use E = MC^2 to get mass from energy since fiction is really inconsistent with that

I am not using E = mc² to derive mass.

I am saying the energy involved is directly relevant to the force being exerted. A 2-C attack does not stop being a 2-C attack just because the other side wants to describe it as something else.

With how ki seems to operate in db, the AP would occur from the explosion or shockwave rather than raw pushing force/KE

A shockwave is still a force-based effect. Calling it a shockwave does not remove the underlying pressure, momentum, or impact. It only describes the form the energy takes.

Turn the shockwave into a vortex and hurl it upward

She does not have the AP to force that outcome.

ball of energy sure as hell classifies as an object

Not in the way you need here. If you are going to argue around object interaction, then you need to stay consistent with the actual mechanics of the feat instead of stretching the definition until it fits your side. The term "object" would refer to a thing with mass that cannot pushback against LS.

why are we saying that tatsu needs a specific amount of AP to overcome it's mass

Because she is resisting an energy mass in motion. To redirect or overpower it, she has to supply enough force to overcome what is already being exerted against her. That is the whole point of AP in this exchange.

Sorry but just for confirmation are you claiming that AP and Force are the exact same

No.

AP is broader than force alone. It can be expressed through force, heat, shock, pressure, and other forms of destructive output. But in this specific case, the relevant part is still the force being produced by the energy attack. Energy in motion creates force. That is what is being debated here.

Pre-Stellar LS (capped at Class 10)

That site label does not override the feat itself.

If Goku were not pushing it back, the blast would drive through the rock far more decisively. The fact that it is only slowly indenting the material is because Goku’s pushback is opposing it.

So the relevant calculation is straightforward:

Ki blast force, minus Goku’s opposing pushback, leaves the remaining Class K level interaction.

 

[azontr]

First of all, "objective rules"? The problem is that the rules only state when a match may be added. They do not state that all later discussion becomes irrelevant. You're saying that.

You lack comprehension on what these rules even try to prevent in the first place. You're calling someone pedant for having a bit of common sense and understanding what the rules entail, instead of being a robot that follows them to their most literal sense. This actively punishes supporters for not seeing the match before 14 votes for tatsumaki were cast. In fact,
I can use other Vs Matches and Staff statements to prove that the rules favor the new argument and votes to be valid.

This principle is literally stated in the page:
"the winner is determined by the side having better constructive arguments, rather than one word/one sentence votes, and inconclusive calls hinge on whether there was a notable debate over an aspect not directly listed on profile."

It quite literally doesn't make an ounce of sense to impede the new argument to sway voters, and invalidate their input because of an arbitrary grace period.

Qawsed's point introduced a genuinely new line of reasoning that the earlier voters never had in front of them when they cast their votes. Treating those earlier votes as equivalent in weight to votes cast after the full argument is just freezing the debate at an artificially early and incomplete stage and calling that the final word. If the wiki's verdict system is built around constructive arguments deciding outcomes rather than raw vote totals, then a vote total built substantially on pre-Qawsed votes doesn't actually reflect a verdict on the constructive arguments. If a single argument is responsible for changing the perceived quality of one side's case, then ignoring that argument results in a verdict that no longer reflects the side with the better constructive arguments

EXAMPLES:​

• Diavolo vs DIC Link: After researching some matches, In this debate, after the Grace Period several participants brought forward new evidence. The moderator First Witch pointed out that the "grace period is not a strict rule nor a countdown to end the debate" and agreed that the discussion had been "prematurely decided."
• Moritzva (former staff) literally said that it doesn't make sense to pull this "the discussion can't continue anymore" because of grace since new arguments are appearing
• Eficiente, also staff at the time, agreed.

There's also the Boruto vs Kaido example where his match was literally contested and got hate because the new information that proved Kaido would lose came up, invalidating votes, and they ignored it. It's not a me thing, it's been a thing for a WHILE

All of your examples come from people who either A. Never had authority to begin with, First Witch has never been an actual staff member or B. Have no authority now. You haven't called anyone who actually has power.



I do not know why you are being aggressive to me when I literally agree with you that Broly wins. I'm just telling you to make another thread. You seriously need to make an effort to fix your attitude, you are being a d*ckhead over something that cannot possibly affect you in any way. This is the exact kind of behavior that you specifically should not be displaying.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Why? Someone who punches at 2-C level, you can stop the person or move the person with superior LS

You're stopping physical mass from accelerating, which only requires you to stop their LS.

You cannot stop energy from accelerating, if everything in its composition carries 2-C levels of energy.

If you're saying "It doesn't apply to physical attacks but just energy beams" even though they'd be the same with that kind of logic, it still wouldn't work as they'd actually require to have a feat&statement that shows it to be the case.

Or we'd just give everyone "Immeasurable LS with energy beams" and they'd just use their energy beams to lift something with immeasurable mass as they'd have equal mass even though they wouldn't have anything to support it.

I'm not saying "energy beams get special lifting strength scaling."

I'm saying that if an attack possesses a given amount of energy, then the force generated by that energy cannot arbitrarily be treated as negligible when another character is directly opposing, redirecting, or stopping it.

Your immeasurable LS example doesn't follow because nobody is claiming energy automatically grants lifting strength ratings.

If Character A fires an Immeasurable AP beam and Character B physically stops, redirects, or overpowers that beam, then Character B is interacting with the force generated by that attack. That's the feat being evaluated.

The burden is on you to explain why the force generated by the attack suddenly becomes irrelevant the moment somebody tries to stop it.

Let me ask you this, if Tatsumaki used her TK to stop a galaxy level attack, would supporters not IMMEDIATELY call her to have "Galaxy level with Telekinesis" in her profile?

You don't need to reply, the answer is yes.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I do not know why you are being aggressive to me

The definition of aggressiveness is being conflated with harshness, it's just me adamantly stating my position and why I think it's incorrect to abruptly end this discussion. Not one aspect of you as a person has been attacked, not your intelligence, not your identity, not even your position has been attacked with cussing or any demeaning wording. Saying interpreting the rules too literally is robotic is, quite possible, the worst thing I said, and the average person would just read this as me attacking the interpretation you gave. This accusation is particularly damming to me because I'm already on thin ice, so if me just presenting my argument with bold letters and large fonts is enough to be considered a microaggression, then it's going to be difficult to me to debate anyone.

You seriously need to make an effort to fix your attitude, you are being a d*ckhead over something that cannot possibly affect you in any way. This is the exact kind of behavior that you specifically should not be displaying

You're literally insulting me for presenting an argument in a way that made you uncomfortable. So, let's do something, I will present this conversation to RVR, and we will see what they decide.

 

[TiltedFN]

All of your examples come from people who either A. Never had authority to begin with, First Witch has never been an actual staff member or B. Have no authority now. You haven't called anyone who actually has power.



I do not know why you are being aggressive to me when I literally agree with you that Broly wins. I'm just telling you to make another thread. You seriously need to make an effort to fix your attitude, you are being a d*ckhead over something that cannot possibly affect you in any way. This is the exact kind of behavior that you specifically should not be displaying.

He's not even being aggressive, he simply disagrees with closing the match and disregarding all the votes and new arguments that were presented. It was created a Monday at 4:19 PM from my understanding. Votes had just started to come in before Grace was even over. And now you want to close the match when Broly is ahead. Right after you called him a 'pedant' no less. Saying "calm down it's not that serious" multiple times over doesn't help anything either.

 

[azontr]

 

[Kachon123]

So, let's do something, I will present this conversation to RVR, and we will see what they decide.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Thank you for your helpful input Kachon.