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Kingdom Hearts General Discussion Thread

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CC Goku vs Sora

Sora is 5D now(lol), so i gonna trow him against a expy of his. Speed equal Kh 3 Sora is being used Goku Super Saiyan Blue: Universe Tree Power is being used They fight on Hell Start distance is 5km away Votes: Stock shonen Hero: Young Dad:
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Vegeta vs Riku

So my last thread of DB vs KH got closed because people realized that Dragon ball don't have any actual layers (lol) to combat KH 26. But since KH lose they 26 sawndhich, and both are baseline layered, this should be good. The Stock Shōnen Rival duel Speed equal They start 2km away They fight...
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greetings, fellas

this worked once before using Tigger's profile and i'd like to know if you guys would like to see if this works

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[0-0-0] The craziest biggest baddest teenagers...bounce it out?

[if this is add-able, it is MADNESS, let's see what happens] Ragnarök Atreus and KH3 Riku, yeah! but... no fighting today! 100-Acre Wood guys do not like fighting and everybody here are friends :> they'll be "duking it out" in KH2 Tigger's Minigame and, like when KH2 Sora, Tigger (and...
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Bobsican said:
Missing Link was cancelled, and beyond Sora getting in Smash and the conclusion of Dark Road, nothing really beyond non-canon cameos has happened after the release of Melody of Memory. We're really just waiting for KH4 on that regard nowadays.
Click to expand...
Do we have any hope for news about KH4?
 
Yeah honestly I don't expect anything before 2026 at the very earliest and that's being generous
 
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Minor Heartless Physiology page change CRT

I believe that parts of the Heartless Physiology article need changing. Duplication, Transmutation & Corruption (By stealing the "heart" of others, Heartless can corrupt the "heart" in its own darkness (If available), after which it becomes another Heartless, Heartless made this way are always...
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Heartless could do with a bit of an update, methinks.
 
I think Luxu's page needs an upgrade and formatting changes too, as Xigbar/Braig and KHIII keys were him holding back, I believe.

Also, I think Luxu should come after X/B and KHIII in key order and it should be stated that Luxu is the strongest key, in my opinion.
 
And I think Xigbar/Braig and KHIII keys for that page should have an explanation for how he holds back in them, I think.
 
Unfortunately, iirc we don't see anything noteworthy enough from Luxu or those he fights that would explicitly indicate that his KHIII self is holding back. While it is plausible that Xigbar is 'weaker' than Luxu simply due to not possessing the Keyblade, there's really no concrete evidence to point in this direction.

There is a interesting discussion to be had about KH2 Xigbar though, since according to our keys he's far weaker than Luxu, yet comes from a later point as compared to the Luxu that performs the feats we use for the purposes of his profile. I doubt even the process of becoming a Nobody (we do see that the most notable Nobodies tend to initially be weaker than their full selves: This occurred to both Roxas and Xemnas, I believe? Though I could be misremembering) could be a proper enough explanation to say, "yeah he became much weaker". Though tbh it's not a topic I often think about.

I am also of the opinion that fighting characters like KH3 Sora should be more notable than fighting the UX versions of the foretellers anyways but that's moreso a gut feeling thing, and likely to change given the direction the series is going in
 
That is a good point. I do feel like some more supporting evidence would be ideal, but maybe it gives some credence to the idea of Luxu>KHIII Xigbar.
 
Bobsican said:
Him fruitlessly raging on Xehanort after his plan made him lose an eye would imply that he couldn't just take back No Name by force.
Click to expand...
I feel like this partially ties into the deception part of things moreso. If he simply tore the keyblade from Xehanort, not only would it blow any cover he had, it might end up affecting something tied to the Book of Prophecies, and the role of keeping watch over things. Although Luxu is a bit off script at this point, it's still a role he seemingly values, judging by how important he treats finding the Box as. In my view, from a character-based perspective it's kinda similar to how Xehanort avoids killing Eraqus until after Terra fights him; It wasn't the right time to drop the ruse, it would have just ruined the overall plan and forced some heavy improvisation, though we don't know TOO much about why Xigbar was undercover and working for Xehanort either, so...
While it's possible that he's weaker, I'd say it's also possible he's not inherently weaker, but also is trying to keep things on a specific path, so he's playing along.

Though with all the "Xehanort being the strongest master" quotes out there, I wouldn't mind the implication of Xehanort>Foretellers- Though that's the bias talking. Xigbar being weaker than Xehanort, for the context of how we treat the characters, should have little bearing on Luxu's strength. Iirc character like Luxu are meant to scale higher with the involvement of Medals used by the player, right?

Although something else I just thought of is that Xigbar/Luxu isn't the only example of someone losing a Keyblade for a somewhat extended period of time: Although this case is much shorter, Sora also had to do without in Hollow Bastion, in which case many of his physical abilities were heavily nerfed (though his only enemies being Heartless may just mean that it's because the Wooden Sword has no magical properties)... But everything else he had was relatively the same. That's interesting to note and maybe compare and contrast to Luxu's case.
 
TheKingStrategist13 said:
I feel like this partially ties into the deception part of things moreso. If he simply tore the keyblade from Xehanort, not only would it blow any cover he had, it might end up affecting something tied to the Book of Prophecies, and the role of keeping watch over things.
Click to expand...
Well, he was disallowed from reading the Book of Prophecies exactly for that reason, so he'd be unaware of that to begin with.

TheKingStrategist13 said:
Although Luxu is a bit off script at this point, it's still a role he seemingly values, judging by how important he treats finding the Box as. In my view, from a character-based perspective it's kinda similar to how Xehanort avoids killing Eraqus until after Terra fights him; It wasn't the right time to drop the ruse, it would have just ruined the overall plan and forced some heavy improvisation, though we don't know TOO much about why Xigbar was undercover and working for Xehanort either, so...
While it's possible that he's weaker, I'd say it's also possible he's not inherently weaker, but also is trying to keep things on a specific path, so he's playing along.
Click to expand...
Yeah, this is true, but it's not like part of his mission specifically included holding back, so this'd be an assumption, ultimately the information we have does lean to him being at least more capable with a Keyblade than without one.

TheKingStrategist13 said:
Though with all the "Xehanort being the strongest master" quotes out there, I wouldn't mind the implication of Xehanort>Foretellers- Though that's the bias talking. Xigbar being weaker than Xehanort, for the context of how we treat the characters, should have little bearing on Luxu's strength. Iirc character like Luxu are meant to scale higher with the involvement of Medals used by the player, right?
Click to expand...
This'd be the case, yes, Player scales quite high out of inheriting the power of several characters in the far future at the time.

TheKingStrategist13 said:
Although something else I just thought of is that Xigbar/Luxu isn't the only example of someone losing a Keyblade for a somewhat extended period of time: Although this case is much shorter, Sora also had to do without in Hollow Bastion, in which case many of his physical abilities were heavily nerfed (though his only enemies being Heartless may just mean that it's because the Wooden Sword has no magical properties)... But everything else he had was relatively the same. That's interesting to note and maybe compare and contrast to Luxu's case.
Click to expand...
There'd also be the time Roxas lost the capability to use a Keyblade and just improvised with a random stick instead, given that Keyblades are a direct manifestation of the light of the user's heart it'd be fair to say that the inability to directly draw into the UES is naturally a nerf.
 
TheKingStrategist13 said:
Unfortunately, iirc we don't see anything noteworthy enough from Luxu or those he fights that would explicitly indicate that his KHIII self is holding back. While it is plausible that Xigbar is 'weaker' than Luxu simply due to not possessing the Keyblade, there's really no concrete evidence to point in this direction.

There is a interesting discussion to be had about KH2 Xigbar though, since according to our keys he's far weaker than Luxu, yet comes from a later point as compared to the Luxu that performs the feats we use for the purposes of his profile. I doubt even the process of becoming a Nobody (we do see that the most notable Nobodies tend to initially be weaker than their full selves: This occurred to both Roxas and Xemnas, I believe? Though I could be misremembering) could be a proper enough explanation to say, "yeah he became much weaker". Though tbh it's not a topic I often think about.

I am also of the opinion that fighting characters like KH3 Sora should be more notable than fighting the UX versions of the foretellers anyways but that's moreso a gut feeling thing, and likely to change given the direction the series is going in
Click to expand...
All right.

But I would think the way Xigbar pretends to give up in KHIII and Braig is implied to be holding back in BbS is somewhat an indicator of this.

Admittedly, no one else with a data boss in Re Mind should have been holding back in canon, so that's evidence against my point.
 
ArkhamDC06 said:
It feels like it's just part of his role honestly. He's supposed to be a normal (well sort of) human with some power who wants to have his own Keyblade. If he just decided to keep Xehanort's Keyblade, it would blow his cover
Click to expand...
What do you think of my theory?

I feel Xigbar might need an upgrade.
 
MunchkinGuy said:
What do you think of my theory?

I feel Xigbar might need an upgrade.
Click to expand...
Kinda split on this.

It's obvious he's holding back in light of what we know now so logically, "Xigbar" should be above "Luxu" in power or at the very least skills. However, it's equally possible he may have lost some of his power along the way including through body surfing process (I don't know about KH since we haven't have that many examples but it's a common trick in fictional works to have the perpetrator of that losing some strength in the process). That and we don't have any proof he didn't have his Xigbar powers back then.

I guess he should be indicated to be more skilled and probably stronger after so long but I don't think we can clearly state this unless we get solid proof of it
 
ArkhamDC06 said:
Kinda split on this.

It's obvious he's holding back in light of what we know now so logically, "Xigbar" should be above "Luxu" in power or at the very least skills. However, it's equally possible he may have lost some of his power along the way including through body surfing process (I don't know about KH since we haven't have that many examples but it's a common trick in fictional works to have the perpetrator of that losing some strength in the process). That and we don't have any proof he didn't have his Xigbar powers back then.

I guess he should be indicated to be more skilled and probably stronger after so long but I don't think we can clearly state this unless we get solid proof of it
Click to expand...
Interesing. I know I need more evidence.

So what is some for Xigbar being stronger than what we've seen of his Luxu form so far?

Also, why are KHIII tiers so high compared to other keys? I believe characters like Larxene and Ansem don't really change, for instance. Could be wrong.
 
Bobsican said:
Well, he was disallowed from reading the Book of Prophecies exactly for that reason, so he'd be unaware of that to begin with.


Yeah, this is true, but it's not like part of his mission specifically included holding back, so this'd be an assumption, ultimately the information we have does lean to him being at least more capable with a Keyblade than without one.
Click to expand...
I'll concede that he'd be unaware and that there's a distinct likelihood he could be overall more capable if he has a keyblade as opposed to if he does. It's probably evident by now that my knowledge of UX isn't as indepth as others here. I still would believe there is a chance he isn't too considerably weaker by default in theory, but like you said most of that is assumptions and it can go either way until we get more on how strong Luxu is.
Bobsican said:
There'd also be the time Roxas lost the capability to use a Keyblade and just improvised with a random stick instead, given that Keyblades are a direct manifestation of the light of the user's heart it'd be fair to say that the inability to directly draw into the UES is naturally a nerf.
Click to expand...
That is another example. I do still find it interesting that again, at least in terms of gameplay, it only nerfs how much physical damage a character does. We could maybe chalk this up to being purely for the sake of gameplay, but it makes me again wonder about how Magic works, if losing a Keyblade seemingly doesn't nerf the potency of a characters magic by much if at all. Though I do think there isn't enough information about the differences to come to any sort of conclusion. I just find it interesting.
MunchkinGuy said:
All right.

But I would think the way Xigbar pretends to give up in KHIII and Braig is implied to be holding back in BbS is somewhat an indicator of this.

Admittedly, no one else with a data boss in Re Mind should have been holding back in canon, so that's evidence against my point.
Click to expand...
I suppose if we go the route of Luxu not losing much of his power from his Union days beyond having lost the Keyblade, we can say that Braig and KH2 Xigbar are in fact holding back (though this also conflicts some statements made about the hierarchy of power in the organization- How Xemnas could beat any of the others, followed by Roxas in power, etc.), but I think KHIII becomes more iffy on saying he's holding back, if only because due to the Medal scaling, KHIII scales far closer to Union X than any other game. It's possible he's not necessarily holding back, just unable to use anymore power because of his lack of Keyblade. This is somewhat conjecture either way.

And yes, the Data Bosses should not be holding back. Though in theory if Xigbar was holding back in canon, Cid wouldn't have the "data" of the Xigbar who doesn't hold back, so the data recreation wouldn't reach that level I would imagine. Again, conjecture.


ArkhamDC06 said:
It's obvious he's holding back in light of what we know now so logically, "Xigbar" should be above "Luxu" in power or at the very least skills. However, it's equally possible he may have lost some of his power along the way including through body surfing process (I don't know about KH since we haven't have that many examples but it's a common trick in fictional works to have the perpetrator of that losing some strength in the process). That and we don't have any proof he didn't have his Xigbar powers back then.

I guess he should be indicated to be more skilled and probably stronger after so long but I don't think we can clearly state this unless we get solid proof of it
Click to expand...
The Skill part should make sense, yes. There is no reason for Xigbar to have lost his skills as time went on, unless he somehow got rusty or something.
As for the premise of becoming weaker through body surfing, there is precedent for this. Aside from X-Blade Xehanort, Terranort is pretty definitively his strongest incarnation, and this is because Terra has a superior body to Xehanort. The inverse should thus be true; If you take over a body that is weaker to your own, you should suffer debuff's in those physical categories where the body is weaker.

This could be a good explanation for why Braig/Xigbar might not be as strong as Luxu, in addition to the loss of his Keyblade. Though this is all in theory.


MunchkinGuy said:
Interesing. I know I need more evidence.

So what is some for Xigbar being stronger than what we've seen of his Luxu form so far?

Also, why are KHIII tiers so high compared to other keys? I believe characters like Larxene and Ansem don't really change, for instance. Could be wrong.
Click to expand...
Evidence should point to otherwise I believe.
KHIII Xigbar (off his own merits aka not counting things that Luxu can do) would likely scale somewhere vaguely below Sora and Riku from end of KH3, Player should scale to the strongest character we have a medal for according to how we currently treat medals (I know at least Sora and Riku have these medals, Terranort does too which is notable), The Union Leaders scale above Player I believe? And I believe Luxu scales to Ava. Other's may have a more indepth explanation for how the scaling chain works regarding KHIII characters VS UX characters.

If characters like Larxene and Ansem didn't change, they would have been irrelevant to KHIII. COM Larxene loses to COM Sora, KH Ansem loses to KH Sora, KHIII Sora should have fodderized them quickly with how much stronger he has gotten. But we obviously know that more importantly, clashing with anyone in the Org qualified for the purposes of the Higher-Dimensional Clashes that resulted in the X-Blade, something these weaker versions of the characters realistically would not have achieved. So we have to presume that everyone in the Org who comes from significantly older games had to of gotten stronger.
And in the case of most of the Org (the argument for Ansem is dubious imo but) you can also say they all had parts of Xehanort's heart implanted into them which also could have granted them power (Terranort>Terra is the general concensus iirc, though that is a more extreme case where Xehanort's full heart went into the being, at least initially)
The point being there's no way they are as weak as they once were, or otherwise things would have had to of gone very differently.
 
TheKingStrategist13 said:
The Skill part should make sense, yes. There is no reason for Xigbar to have lost his skills as time went on, unless he somehow got rusty or something.
As for the premise of becoming weaker through body surfing, there is precedent for this. Aside from X-Blade Xehanort, Terranort is pretty definitively his strongest incarnation, and this is because Terra has a superior body to Xehanort. The inverse should thus be true; If you take over a body that is weaker to your own, you should suffer debuff's in those physical categories where the body is weaker.

This could be a good explanation for why Braig/Xigbar might not be as strong as Luxu, in addition to the loss of his Keyblade. Though this is all in theory.
Click to expand...
To be fair losing an eye definitely is relevant to him as he mostly fights by shooting, and the second eye is important to perceive depth, which is important for aiming, so he'd easily have less skill capability with his current body.

TheKingStrategist13 said:
Evidence should point to otherwise I believe.
KHIII Xigbar (off his own merits aka not counting things that Luxu can do) would likely scale somewhere vaguely below Sora and Riku from end of KH3, Player should scale to the strongest character we have a medal for according to how we currently treat medals (I know at least Sora and Riku have these medals, Terranort does too which is notable), The Union Leaders scale above Player I believe? And I believe Luxu scales to Ava. Other's may have a more indepth explanation for how the scaling chain works regarding KHIII characters VS UX characters.
Click to expand...
There's medals for basically everyone up to KH3 (not Re Mind, to be clear, UX died before that dropped, not that it'd matter much as barely anything was added for these purposes), and notably this includes some of Sora's Formchanges and moves, so Player would scale that high, the Foretellers should scale to Player as they can fight them evenly, and in fact one of them beats them (which one does depends on the Union joined at the start of the game, so it'd be fair to say that any of the ones participating in that one war (Gula, Invi, Ava, Ira, Aced) can beat Player). As far the "new" Union Leaders in UX are concerned however, Player beat Ephemer and Skuld in a 2v1 at the end of UX, so they can only downscale at most, especially as Lauriam lost to Maleficent, who in turn can just strangle Ventus with his raw hands, so in the most generous scenario I wouldn't advocate for all of the "new" ones to scale.

TheKingStrategist13 said:
If characters like Larxene and Ansem didn't change, they would have been irrelevant to KHIII. COM Larxene loses to COM Sora, KH Ansem loses to KH Sora, KHIII Sora should have fodderized them quickly with how much stronger he has gotten. But we obviously know that more importantly, clashing with anyone in the Org qualified for the purposes of the Higher-Dimensional Clashes that resulted in the X-Blade, something these weaker versions of the characters realistically would not have achieved. So we have to presume that everyone in the Org who comes from significantly older games had to of gotten stronger.
And in the case of most of the Org (the argument for Ansem is dubious imo but) you can also say they all had parts of Xehanort's heart implanted into them which also could have granted them power (Terranort>Terra is the general concensus iirc, though that is a more extreme case where Xehanort's full heart went into the being, at least initially)
The point being there's no way they are as weak as they once were, or otherwise things would have had to of gone very differently.
Click to expand...
A noticeable case of them being stronger than before is Lingering Will standing up against Terra-Xehanort in BbS to just being overwhelmed in KH3 by the same guy even with Sora's help.
 
Bobsican said:
To be fair losing an eye definitely is relevant to him as he mostly fights by shooting, and the second eye is important to perceive depth, which is important for aiming, so he'd easily have less skill capability with his current body.


There's medals for basically everyone up to KH3 (not Re Mind, to be clear, UX died before that dropped, not that it'd matter much as barely anything was added for these purposes), and notably this includes some of Sora's Formchanges and moves, so Player would scale that high, the Foretellers should scale to Player as they can fight them evenly, and in fact one of them beats them (which one does depends on the Union joined at the start of the game, so it'd be fair to say that any of the ones participating in that one war (Gula, Invi, Ava, Ira, Aced) can beat Player). As far the "new" Union Leaders in UX are concerned however, Player beat Ephemer and Skuld in a 2v1 at the end of UX, so they can only downscale at most, especially as Lauriam lost to Maleficent, who in turn can just strangle Ventus with his raw hands, so in the most generous scenario I wouldn't advocate for all of the "new" ones to scale.


A noticeable case of them being stronger than before is Lingering Will standing up against Terra-Xehanort in BbS to just being overwhelmed in KH3 by the same guy even with Sora's help.
Click to expand...
I understand stronger in KHIII points now. But Xigbar did run away from fighting Sora in DDD even though he would have fought alongside Xemnas, someone stronger than Dark Riku and stronger than Xigbar himself.

I know DDD is treated differently than III in scaling, but taking this into context, along with the time where he fought Sora with Links on the same level as the Dream Eaters plus one of the friends that made him powerful as discussed in DDD in III, makes me think he maintains a certain image as to what his power is. And that it's somewhat false and weaker than what he is capable of so that he can manipulate others to do what he thinks is best for the timeline more effectively.

And for Xemnas, I think the power discussion on his page could use a bit of downgrading to just "comparable to," as he was beaten in the end.
 
MunchkinGuy said:
I understand stronger in KHIII points now. But Xigbar did run away from fighting Sora in DDD even though he would have fought alongside Xemnas, someone stronger than Dark Riku and stronger than Xigbar himself.
Click to expand...
That was more so part of the plan, as even if he beat Xemnas (which he did), he'd just fall further into dreams, rendering him into a good vessel to host a part of Xehanort to build the X-Blade, it'd be a waste of effort to fight him as the end result would be the same.

MunchkinGuy said:
I know DDD is treated differently than III in scaling, but taking this into context, along with the time where he fought Sora with Links on the same level as the Dream Eaters plus one of the friends that made him powerful as discussed in DDD in III, makes me think he maintains a certain image as to what his power is. And that it's somewhat false and weaker than what he is capable of so that he can manipulate others to do what he thinks is best for the timeline more effectively.
Click to expand...
Dream Eaters owned by Sora or Riku have no relation to the ones in the Union X era, they're made from scratch using materials from defeated Nightmare Dream Eaters, and we don't really know if Nightmare Dream Eaters were originally Keyblade War participants as they start off as Spirit Dream Eaters, so it'd be an assumption to claim otherwise.

MunchkinGuy said:
And for Xemnas, I think the power discussion on his page could use a bit of downgrading to just "comparable to," as he was beaten in the end.
Click to expand...
Not necessarily as he was on a 2v1 and Sora had to finish him off as Riku took a strong blow for him, placing him unsuited for fighting any further.

All of that said, there's this small CRT and it'd be nice if it got some input, even just a basic analysis to then comment on the proof would be nice.
 
Last edited:
There hasn't been anything new ever since Missing Link's confirmed cancellation, so we're still waiting for KH4 to shake things up on that regard. That said, right now there's been some work behind the scenes to improve the accuracy in the profiles as quite a ton of lore is being analyzed lately.
 
Bobsican said:
That was more so part of the plan, as even if he beat Xemnas (which he did), he'd just fall further into dreams, rendering him into a good vessel to host a part of Xehanort to build the X-Blade, it'd be a waste of effort to fight him as the end result would be the same.


Dream Eaters owned by Sora or Riku have no relation to the ones in the Union X era, they're made from scratch using materials from defeated Nightmare Dream Eaters, and we don't really know if Nightmare Dream Eaters were originally Keyblade War participants as they start off as Spirit Dream Eaters, so it'd be an assumption to claim otherwise.


Not necessarily as he was on a 2v1 and Sora had to finish him off as Riku took a strong blow for him, placing him unsuited for fighting any further.

All of that said, there's this small CRT and it'd be nice if it got some input, even just a basic analysis to then comment on the proof would be nice.
Click to expand...

I wasn't talking about Union Dream Eaters at all.
 
Bobsican said:
There hasn't been anything new ever since Missing Link's confirmed cancellation, so we're still waiting for KH4 to shake things up on that regard. That said, right now there's been some work behind the scenes to improve the accuracy in the profiles as quite a ton of lore is being analyzed lately.
Click to expand...
Planning on an upgrade or downgrade? Or just adding abilities?
 
Question (no i am not imposing any downgrades i'm just interested since i hate the concept of tier 1 altogether)

If kingdom hearts had to scale to calcs what would their ap be?
 
I hear KH (especially Keyblade wielders) has multiple layers of Existence erasure and existence erasure resistance. Could I have a run down, I have kingdom hearts matchup planned and I wanna know what 'm getting into
 
Anonymous_Learner said:
I hear KH (especially Keyblade wielders) has multiple layers of Existence erasure and existence erasure resistance. Could I have a run down, I have kingdom hearts matchup planned and I wanna know what 'm getting into
Click to expand...
In the past they had over 27 layers, but nowadays they don't have any, a CRT is planned eventually on that topic, but until then I wouldn't recommend that.
 
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