General DC Comics Discussion Thread

[Williams249]

I'm not very sure. In Joshua Williamson's JL Incarnate series, Darkseid was not shown to be anywhere near to tier Low 1-C. He was matched by the likes of Asmodel and a guy whose armor was forged from the Emotional Rings.

Yeah, while that's true, Darkseid did easily defeat the Quintessence - the most powerful order of beings in the multiverse, from a higher plane of existence/reality. He also held his own pretty well against Empty Hand who's from a higher order of reality and is beyond our comprehension. Note the emphasis on ORDER. Reality being ordered in metaphysical planes of existence is a common schtick in DC, as one ascends into Unity. Anyway, the wiki treats these stuffs as a single D-jump. Pretty vague, I know.

 

[Asterotheology]

Yeah, while that's true, Darkseid did easily defeat the Quintessence - the most powerful order of beings in the multiverse, from a higher plane of existence/reality. He also held his own pretty well against Empty Hand who's from a higher order of reality and is beyond our comprehension, incapacitating Wonder-Mite. Why, it isn't directly stated to be Wonder-Mite, the context "little people" and it's identical nature to Wonder-Mite of the Fifth Dimension does fit. I really don't know how the wiki treats Empty Hand, but I think he's higher dimensional.

I'm pretty sure that's Earth 42 Wonder Wonder there, not Wonder-Mite. Earth 42 is a chibi version for Earth 0 and it's heroes. Hence why Nightwing, as Batman appears as a chibi at the start of the Multiversity Guidebook comic. That's the context of the little people. It has nothing to do with the 5th dimension.

 

[Williams249]

I'm pretty sure that's Earth 42 Wonder Wonder there, not Wonder-Mite. Earth 42 is a chibi version for Earth 0 and it's heroes. Hence why Nightwing, as Batman appears as a chibi at the start of the Multiversity Guidebook comic. That's the context of the little people. It has nothing to do with the 5th dimension.

Yeah, my bad. I'll edit it out

 

[Elizio33]

Yeah, while that's true, Darkseid did easily defeat the Quintessence - the most powerful order of beings in the multiverse, from a higher plane of existence/reality. He also held his own pretty well against Empty Hand who's from a higher order of reality and is beyond our comprehension. Note the emphasis on ORDER. Reality being ordered in metaphysical planes of existence is a common schtick in DC, as one ascends into Unity. Anyway, the wiki treats these stuffs as a single D-jump. Pretty vague, I know.

Maybe, but a full Low 1-C tier would remain bizarre for Darkseid, even for his true form.

 

[Williams249]

Maybe, but a full Low 1-C tier would remain bizarre for Darkseid, even for his true form.

I personally feel it's okay, though. Anyway, when'd you begin the Forces of Creation thread?

 

[Elizio33]

I personally feel it's okay, though. Anyway, when'd you begin the Forces of Creation thread?

I guess you're right. Currently, I'm starting a draft page for The Forces of Creation

 

[Williams249]

I guess you're right. Currently, I'm starting a draft page for The Forces of Creation

Okay, great. Anticipating

 

[Elizio33]

Here's how characters scaling to the Crisis Cosmology should be:

• The New Gods would be Low 1-C for sharing a similar nature to the Sphere of the Gods which is qualitatively superior to the material world.
• Empty Hand would be Low 1-C for fighting Darkseid in his true form, with the former considering himself more than his equal.
• Pariah does not have a profile yet but would be Low 1-C, possibly High 1-C via his connection to the power of the Great Darkness for being superior to Darkseid and Empty Hand and affecting the Divine Continuum.
• Hecate and the Upside-Down Man would be Low 1-C for scaling to each other and Hecate is more powerful than all gods. (See the note below...)
• Monitors, Mandrakk, Thought Robot would be 1-C for being qualitatively superior to Comic Book Limbo which is positioned above the Sphere of the Gods on the map of the multiverse without transcending it.
• Mister Mxyzptlk and Bat-Mite would be High 1-C for sharing a similar nature as the Fifth Dimension which exists and flows all around and between the realms of the Divine Continuum.
• Monitor, Anti-Monitor, World Forger would be High 1-C in the Sixth Dimension for having a superior stature than all entities inhabiting the multiverse, including those who inhabit the Fifth Dimension.
• Perpetua would be High 1-C for being above the Ultra-Monitor whose power was considered by the Anti-Monitor to be "unlike anything he felt before" and her fight against the Darkest Knight raged across all facets of reality. (See the note below...)
• Darkest Knight would be High 1-C, likely 1-B for defeating and killing Perpetua using fragments of the Source Wall and would have killed the Hands.
• The Hands would be 1-B for transcending everything on the main DC Universe, including the Sixth Dimension.
• The Light of Creation (Source/Overvoid/Presence) would be 1-B for transcending and encompassing absolutely everything and everyone in the Crisis Cosmology.
• The Great Darkness would be 1-B for preceeding and equaling the Light of Creation in power.

Note that I'm not using the feat of the Upside-Down Man infecting the Other Place with "his reality" for the simple reason that Swamp Thing was able to do the same thing with the Other Place. This is more of a battle of belief and magic than an actual battle of raw power, so it does not adhere to Tier 1-C.

Although Perpetua has described her power as only being able to destroy one universe at a time, which has been clearly demonstrated throughout the story, her position and scaling in the cosmology gives her a higher tier, without forgetting that she possesses all the dark forces of creation. She said she regained the power she had before her imprisonment, but Snyder said her stature had diminished since her imprisonment and so she would not adhere to a Tier 1-B like the rest of the Hands, unless a second key is made.

 

[Ramasugita11]

Here's how characters scaling to the Crisis Cosmology should be:

• The New Gods would be Low 1-C for sharing a similar nature to the Sphere of the Gods which is qualitatively superior to the material world.
• Empty Hand would be Low 1-C for fighting Darkseid in his true form, with the former considering himself more than his equal.
• Pariah does not have a profile yet but would be Low 1-C, possibly High 1-C via his connection to the power of the Great Darkness for being superior to Darkseid and Empty Hand and affecting the Divine Continuum.
• Hecate and the Upside-Down Man would be Low 1-C for scaling to each other and Hecate is more powerful than all gods. (See the note below...)
• Monitors, Mandrakk, Thought Robot would be 1-C for being qualitatively superior to Comic Book Limbo which is positioned above the Sphere of the Gods on the map of the multiverse without transcending it.
• Mister Mxyzptlk and Bat-Mite would be High 1-C for sharing a similar nature as the Fifth Dimension which exists and flows all around and between the realms of the Divine Continuum.
• Monitor, Anti-Monitor, World Forger would be High 1-C in the Sixth Dimension for having a superior stature than all entities inhabiting the multiverse, including those who inhabit the Fifth Dimension.
• Perpetua would be High 1-C for being above the Ultra-Monitor whose power was considered by the Anti-Monitor to be "unlike anything he felt before" and her fight against the Darkest Knight raged across all facets of reality. (See the note below...)
• Darkest Knight would be High 1-C, likely 1-B for defeating and killing Perpetua using fragments of the Source Wall and would have killed the Hands.
• The Hands would be 1-B for transcending everything on the main DC Universe, including the Sixth Dimension.
• The Light of Creation (Source/Overvoid/Presence) would be 1-B for transcending and encompassing absolutely everything and everyone in the Crisis Cosmology.
• The Great Darkness would be 1-B for preceeding and equaling the Light of Creation in power.

Note that I'm not using the feat of the Upside-Down Man infecting the Other Place with "his reality" for the simple reason that Swamp Thing was able to do the same thing with the Other Place. This is more of a battle of belief and magic than an actual battle of raw power, so it does not adhere to Tier 1-C.

Although Perpetua has described her power as only being able to destroy one universe at a time, which has been clearly demonstrated throughout the story, her position and scaling in the cosmology gives her a higher tier, without forgetting that she possesses all the dark forces of creation. She said she regained the power she had before her imprisonment, but Snyder said her stature had diminished since her imprisonment and so she would not adhere to a Tier 1-B like the rest of the Hands, unless a second key is made.

It is a very consistent layer of existence.
Looks very nice, agree

Daniel hall should be l1c, right? and Barbatos is above him because he burned Lucien's library and was also stated to have killed Alpheus.

#Edit

 

[Elizio33]

It is a very consistent layer of existence.
Looks very nice, agree

Daniel hall should be l1c, right? and Barbatos is above him because he burned Lucien's library and was also stated to have killed Alpheus.

#Edit

Barbatos was not shown to be exactly above Daniel Hall who should indeed be Low 1-C, he was simply threatening the Dreaming via the side effects of bringing the "horrors" of the Dark Multiverse to the main DC Multiverse.

Edit: The Endless case in Crisis Cosmology also contradicts Vertigo Cosmology since in Vertigo, the Endless are embodiments of their concept throughout all creations and don't appear to be limited to their realms, while in Crisis Cosmology, the Endless appears to be strictly limited to their realms which lie in the Sphere of the Gods.

 

[Williams249]

Here's how characters scaling to the Crisis Cosmology should be:

• The New Gods would be Low 1-C for sharing a similar nature to the Sphere of the Gods which is qualitatively superior to the material world.
• Empty Hand would be Low 1-C for fighting Darkseid in his true form, with the former considering himself more than his equal.
• Pariah does not have a profile yet but would be Low 1-C, possibly High 1-C via his connection to the power of the Great Darkness for being superior to Darkseid and Empty Hand and affecting the Divine Continuum.
• Hecate and the Upside-Down Man would be Low 1-C for scaling to each other and Hecate is more powerful than all gods. (See the note below...)
• Monitors, Mandrakk, Thought Robot would be 1-C for being qualitatively superior to Comic Book Limbo which is positioned above the Sphere of the Gods on the map of the multiverse without transcending it.
• Mister Mxyzptlk and Bat-Mite would be High 1-C for sharing a similar nature as the Fifth Dimension which exists and flows all around and between the realms of the Divine Continuum.
• Monitor, Anti-Monitor, World Forger would be High 1-C in the Sixth Dimension for having a superior stature than all entities inhabiting the multiverse, including those who inhabit the Fifth Dimension.
• Perpetua would be High 1-C for being above the Ultra-Monitor whose power was considered by the Anti-Monitor to be "unlike anything he felt before" and her fight against the Darkest Knight raged across all facets of reality. (See the note below...)
• Darkest Knight would be High 1-C, likely 1-B for defeating and killing Perpetua using fragments of the Source Wall and would have killed the Hands.
• The Hands would be 1-B for transcending everything on the main DC Universe, including the Sixth Dimension.
• The Light of Creation (Source/Overvoid/Presence) would be 1-B for transcending and encompassing absolutely everything and everyone in the Crisis Cosmology.
• The Great Darkness would be 1-B for preceeding and equaling the Light of Creation in power.

Note that I'm not using the feat of the Upside-Down Man infecting the Other Place with "his reality" for the simple reason that Swamp Thing was able to do the same thing with the Other Place. This is more of a battle of belief and magic than an actual battle of raw power, so it does not adhere to Tier 1-C.

Although Perpetua has described her power as only being able to destroy one universe at a time, which has been clearly demonstrated throughout the story, her position and scaling in the cosmology gives her a higher tier, without forgetting that she possesses all the dark forces of creation. She said she regained the power she had before her imprisonment, but Snyder said her stature had diminished since her imprisonment and so she would not adhere to a Tier 1-B like the rest of the Hands, unless a second key is made.

Looks great.

 

[Elizio33]

Okay, great. Anticipating

I haven't had much time to work on this but here's a brief start:

Crisis Cosmology - The Forces of Creation​

Existence in the DCU is made up of several cosmic forces, all gathered through two poles: Crisis Energy; Anti-Life, Chaos Magic, ect, primarily around greed, predation, and selfishness. Connective Energy; Speed Force, Emotional Spectrum, ect, around the unification of all lives and stories into a single generational history. These forces are said to govern the multiverse and are described as strings stretched across the DC Multiverse.

 

[Williams249]

I haven't had much time to work on this but here's a brief start:

Crisis Cosmology - The Forces of Creation​

Existence in the DCU is made up of several cosmic forces, all gathered through two poles: Crisis Energy; Anti-Life, Chaos Magic, ect, primarily around greed, predation, and selfishness. Connective Energy; Speed Force, Emotional Spectrum, ect, around the unification of all lives and stories into a single generational history. These forces are said to govern the multiverse and are described as strings stretched across the DC Multiverse.

Preamble looks good. Might be a bit tasking indexing each of the Forces, so just ping if you need help. & Remember SF is the most powerful of them all xD

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

It don't cancel that they're all exist on the same plane.

If you mean Creation as a plane to which Noema of the Basanos has stated then, yes. However, power-wise during Sandman lore they were the highest force even older and more powerful than the gods.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

You haven't provided proof of the greatness of the smile/god, the concept of divinity in DC Comics is diverse, duality is natural, omnipotent? Normal thing, the end of everything? Normal thing

And that makes Darkseid any different?

Darkseid:
Become everything

They were to become everything. Even then these sentiments hold little precedent with how Darkseid usually gains power to achieve those levels.

Anti-life duality

Relevance? The Source contained both sides of Life and Anti-Life. Darkseid merely shortly won the war within him dying throughout the next following event of Final Crisis.

Everything is darkseid

Darkseid very boastful nature though he has been bested many times before.

I'm the End of Everything

Conceptually speaking about himself. Many have claimed this for themselves.

I am the beginning and the end of all things
Darkseid is END

He didn't finish his goal in both occasions.

Omnipotent

“Omnipotent” Ha!

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

The Void on which universes are built fits into his name

The Void in Lucifer was absolute. Darkseid in Infinite Froniter was just being built with the importance of Earth Omega and the bigger threat. If you count the Darkness as a Void then it should be the final Void.

It doesn't make anyone stronger. Being beyond something is not necessarily formulated as superiority over something, unless there is more precise specificity. The reason you were born does not make you weaker than the one who gave birth to you. Yhwach was stated to be the strongest in the world of gods, but Anti-Life is a god killer, and this is all said in the same comic.

Anti-Life was created by Darkseid. He just used it to formulate something to control all things with despair and take away free will.

The Endless were written by Neil Gaiman as beyond any and all gods excluding Yahweh.

At the time of the Crisis, all New Gods possessed Anti-Life. New gods are stronger than Yahweh. And even in the Crisis it is confirmed that Yahweh is the creator of the multiverse in which the Crisis takes place, which does not contradict Vertigo

Cain being possessed by the Anti-Life equation and severing the Omega(Darkseid/End) claims that Darkseid is ultimate. Despite his dying and being broken crawling until Rox Omaga would drain him in his domain.

Not a very reliable source to use. Might as well ask Zauriel whose more powerful: his creator or Darkseid.

 

[Antvasima]

I was wondering if we should include the information from John Ostrander's Spectre Vol 3 in DeMatteis' cosmology (Spiritual Cosmology)?

I personally think that it seems like a bad idea to completely mix Christianity and Hinduism.

 

[Antvasima]

Here's how characters scaling to the Crisis Cosmology should be:

• The New Gods would be Low 1-C for sharing a similar nature to the Sphere of the Gods which is qualitatively superior to the material world.
• Empty Hand would be Low 1-C for fighting Darkseid in his true form, with the former considering himself more than his equal.
• Pariah does not have a profile yet but would be Low 1-C, possibly High 1-C via his connection to the power of the Great Darkness for being superior to Darkseid and Empty Hand and affecting the Divine Continuum.
• Hecate and the Upside-Down Man would be Low 1-C for scaling to each other and Hecate is more powerful than all gods. (See the note below...)
• Monitors, Mandrakk, Thought Robot would be 1-C for being qualitatively superior to Comic Book Limbo which is positioned above the Sphere of the Gods on the map of the multiverse without transcending it.
• Mister Mxyzptlk and Bat-Mite would be High 1-C for sharing a similar nature as the Fifth Dimension which exists and flows all around and between the realms of the Divine Continuum.
• Monitor, Anti-Monitor, World Forger would be High 1-C in the Sixth Dimension for having a superior stature than all entities inhabiting the multiverse, including those who inhabit the Fifth Dimension.
• Perpetua would be High 1-C for being above the Ultra-Monitor whose power was considered by the Anti-Monitor to be "unlike anything he felt before" and her fight against the Darkest Knight raged across all facets of reality. (See the note below...)
• Darkest Knight would be High 1-C, likely 1-B for defeating and killing Perpetua using fragments of the Source Wall and would have killed the Hands.
• The Hands would be 1-B for transcending everything on the main DC Universe, including the Sixth Dimension.
• The Light of Creation (Source/Overvoid/Presence) would be 1-B for transcending and encompassing absolutely everything and everyone in the Crisis Cosmology.
• The Great Darkness would be 1-B for preceeding and equaling the Light of Creation in power.

Note that I'm not using the feat of the Upside-Down Man infecting the Other Place with "his reality" for the simple reason that Swamp Thing was able to do the same thing with the Other Place. This is more of a battle of belief and magic than an actual battle of raw power, so it does not adhere to Tier 1-C.

Although Perpetua has described her power as only being able to destroy one universe at a time, which has been clearly demonstrated throughout the story, her position and scaling in the cosmology gives her a higher tier, without forgetting that she possesses all the dark forces of creation. She said she regained the power she had before her imprisonment, but Snyder said her stature had diminished since her imprisonment and so she would not adhere to a Tier 1-B like the rest of the Hands, unless a second key is made.

That seems fine to me.

 

[Brahmatman]

The Void in Lucifer was absolute. Darkseid in Infinite Froniter was just being built with the importance of Earth Omega and the bigger threat. If you count the Darkness as a Void then it should be the final Void.

Well, it was absolute, then it became not absolute, as the description of cosmology expanded. Darkseid was once a star level and then became a multiversal entity

Anti-Life was created by Darkseid. He just used it to formulate something to control all things with despair and take away free will.

The Endless were written by Neil Gaiman as beyond any and all gods excluding Yahweh.

Anti-life is a separate entity in the world of the gods, you are confusing something.

So it was Neil Gaiman who wrote in the comic that Anti-Life is the end of all gods and things

Cain being possessed by the Anti-Life equation and severing the Omega(Darkseid/End) claims that Darkseid is ultimate. Despite his dying and being broken crawling until Rox Omaga would drain him in his domain.

Not a very reliable source to use. Might as well ask Zauriel whose more powerful: his creator or Darkseid.

This was confirmed by the angels themselves, confirmed by the comic itself, and confirmed by Mandrak

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Well, it was absolute, then it became not absolute, as the description of cosmology expanded. Darkseid was once a star level and then became a multiversal entity

We are already separated from DC and Vertigo. That one Void logic was changed to the Greater Omniverse. Which only the Light and Great Darkness scale to. I don't know why you're trying to make a composite view and even then Darkseid is nowhere near close enough to scale to the Hands much less the entire Grsatwr Omniverse which Lucifer “Void” holds akin in logic to.

Anti-life is a separate entity in the world of the gods, you are confusing something.

I meant to say it wasn't created by Darkseid. I wasn't confusing anything. You're point earlier discussed how the dualistic nature of Anti-Life works in conjunction with the equation and not the entity.

So it was Neil Gaiman who wrote in the comic that Anti-Life is the end of all gods and things

Which was to oppose Morpheus's earlier logic of life. I don't think he intended to use any ideas from Kirby with the forces. Anti-All was just synonymous with the end which was made by a Duke of Hell to counter Morpheus’w logic. Even then “hope” beats Anti-Life.

This was confirmed by the angels themselves, confirmed by the comic itself, and confirmed by Mandrak

Mandrakk wasn't referring to the Presence. The Angel was vengeful in nature to fend off enemies. The whole point of Final Crisis was for Darkseod to become the single Trinity God and drag everything down with him. Batman's quote of Darkseid exactly matches that of Rox. “A dying, broken God.”

Later, in the end, they said they fought a parasite(Mandrakk) and a god(Darkseid). Also, they never call him “Yahweh” like in the Lucifer series did.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I personally think that it seems like a bad idea to completely mix Christianity and Hinduism.

In the story, they sort of did. They did say each of them has a facade across religion. Michael was Kali. Spectre was originally going to be an avatar of Shiva but later changed to Kali as well.

This Spectre could be used alongside the Crisis Cosmology since some of its stories intertwined with some crisis events.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Could we also add the Sandman reboot lore? Those do give a lot about the Cosmology as well.

 

[PrinceStories]

Could we also add the Sandman reboot lore? Those do give a lot about the Cosmology as well.

That can be discussed and I have also suggested Elizio to add the Sandman reboot material to his thread after the holidays.

 

[Antvasima]

My apologies for interupting, but what do our staff members here think about this?

Antvasima

community.fandom.com

 

[Brahmatman]

We are already separated from DC and Vertigo. That one Void logic was changed to the Greater Omniverse. Which only the Light and Great Darkness scale to. I don't know why you're trying to make a composite view and even then Darkseid is nowhere near close enough to scale to the Hands much less the entire Grsatwr Omniverse which Lucifer “Void” holds akin in logic to.

It's the same cosmology. This is how it was shown in the comic, this is not my personal invention, Darkseid is just more The void.
Void beyond Dc /=/ Void of the physical multiverse

meant to say it wasn't created by Darkseid. I wasn't confusing anything. You're point earlier discussed how the dualistic nature of Anti-Life works in conjunction with the equation and not the entity.

According to the files, he subdued the entity using its equation

Which was to oppose Morpheus's earlier logic of life. I don't think he intended to use any ideas from Kirby with the forces. Anti-All was just synonymous with the end which was made by a Duke of Hell to counter Morpheus’w logic. Even then “hope” beats Anti-Life.

They used metaphors as a rationale for more superior things to each other, so it is not just a synonym or coincidence, but a deliberate inclusion of an entity more powerful than all the gods, although there were exceptions like Freedom or Hope, but this does not apply to Yahweh. This was indicated by the author in his comic, and not a personal interpretation.

Mandrakk wasn't referring to the Presence. The Angel was vengeful in nature to fend off enemies. The whole point of Final Crisis was for Darkseod to become the single Trinity God and drag everything down with him. Batman's quote of Darkseid exactly matches that of Rox. “A dying, broken God.”

Later, in the end, they said they fought a parasite(Mandrakk) and a god(Darkseid). Also, they never call him “Yahweh” like in the Lucifer series did.

He spoke precisely in the context of the supreme deity, written with a capital letter, this is very important when describing a deity. It was also claimed that angels cannot die while their creator is alive, but they died. This phrase has no meaning for Darkseid, because he is not the protector of the universe.

Darkseid isn't called Uxes, but that doesn't mean he's not Uxes. Yahweh and Allah were called, and the Presence, and God, this is simply the presence of many names for one being. And the fact that he was not called by name does not negate the fact that he is the creator and God of angels in the context of this comic

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

It's the same cosmology. This is how it was shown in the comic, this is not my personal invention, Darkseid is just more The void.
Void beyond Dc /=/ Void of the physical multiverse

You should rectify what you meant by the Void. The large Void outside all Creation and the domains of Night and Time is allegorical to the Greater Omniverse adhering to the same logic that houses an infinite amount Multiverses made by different creators.

According to the files, he subdued the entity using its equation

That wasn't the point and even then it's not necessarily his raw power that did it.

They used metaphors as a rationale for more superior things to each other, so it is not just a synonym or coincidence, but a deliberate inclusion of an entity more powerful than all the gods, although there were exceptions like Freedom or Hope, but this does not apply to Yahweh. This was indicated by the author in his comic, and not a personal interpretation.

They weren't necessarily superior, they were going in terms of scale. The concept of hunter and hunted can be very debased and compound when compared to life and death itself.

Yahweh's expression of freedom is due to his position as God made by humans. His freedom can not be in the way he wants like Lucifer because they aren't their own maker. Humans made Yahweh “God” and Lucifer “Devil.” They didn't choose to be those, they were inadvertently placed in such positions by beliefs. Though they don't have typical freedom, both have straight up said no to the system several times.

He spoke precisely in the context of the supreme deity, written with a capital letter, this is very important when describing a deity. It was also claimed that angels cannot die while their creator is alive, but they died. This phrase has no meaning for Darkseid, because he is not the protector of the universe.

The scan before was that of Darkseid's essence being shattered and spreading across. As Batman put it a dying God crawling in the shadows. Grant Morrison in an interview tells us Darkseid is the one dying God referenced throughout all of Final Crisis.

Also, they didn't say “Angels.” They said “spirits” as Radiant said they can not die until their master is gone. Cain confirms he is death and apparently Mandrakk drained them. None of that is confirmed because how can God be dying if they said he was already dead? There's no story to which Mandrakk was feeding on the Presence other than Darkseid being the only dying God.

Darkseid isn't called Uxes, but that doesn't mean he's not Uxes. Yahweh and Allah were called, and the Presence, and God, this is simply the presence of many names for one being. And the fact that he was not called by name does not negate the fact that he is the creator and God of angels in the context of this comic

This point is meant to prove what? Everyone at some point claimed themselves as God.

 

[Jolman1]

I personally think that it seems like a bad idea to completely mix Christianity and Hinduism.

But John's cosmology is literally mix of them...

 

[Daoist_Pepe]

As @PrinceStories told me, the "Spiritual Cosmology" for the eventual cosmology of DeMatteis, Moore and a few others should be a good name for this.

Will DeMatteis Cosmology include his collaborative works or will it just be his solo stuff? DeMatteis has worked with Keith Giffen on multiple occasions so would those comics which they worked together on, be included? And like @Ehnkr2beboh pointed out
https://vsbattles.com/threads/general-dc-comics-discussion-thread.139601/post-6265112

I don't recall them being referenced in a Vertigo series, but they're definitely parts of JMD's, as he wrote Adventures of Superman #582/#583, which were parts of the Emperor Joker arc, and, as such feature Mxy and Emperor Joker. I'd also figure we'd treat the rest of the arc as part of JMD's cosmology, as, despite not being written by him, they tie-in, similar to how we count Starlin's DOTNG for the Final Crisis cosmology.

Are you going to include parts of Emperor Joker's arc into DeMatteis cosmology?

 

[Daoist_Pepe]

The answer to the first question is unneeded, I just checked the Cosmology blog, and his collaborative works are included(Larfleeze). But I will like an answer to the second question.

 

[PrinceStories]

Dematteis has worked with Keith giffen on multiple occasions so would those comics which they worked together on, be included?

Some of Keith Giffen's works are so connected to DeMatteis continuity that they will no doubt be included as well.

 

[Brahmatman]

You should rectify what you meant by the Void. The large Void outside all Creation and the domains of Night and Time is allegorical to the Greater Omniverse adhering to the same logic that houses an infinite amount Multiverses made by different creators.

No, they are residents of the Sphere of the Gods, and cannot reach such a level due to the cosmological hierarchy. These are ordinary physical multiverses, not multiverses on Overvoid.

They weren't necessarily superior, they were going in terms of scale. The concept of hunter and hunted can be very debased and compound when compared to life and death itself.

Yahweh's expression of freedom is due to his position as God made by humans. His freedom can not be in the way he wants like Lucifer because they aren't their own maker. Humans made Yahweh “God” and Lucifer “Devil.” They didn't choose to be those, they were inadvertently placed in such positions by beliefs. Though they don't have typical freedom, both have straight up said no to the system several times.

Let them do what they want, the main point is that Anti-Life is a killer of gods in the Vertigo cosmology, which they so love without reason to consider as a different cosmology on this wiki. Or we can say that Yahweh is God beyond the gods, but then this would be contrary to his so-called status. By the way, the Endlesw are beyond the gods, but Yahweh, for some reason, is stronger. As I already wrote, being outside of something is not necessarily superior to something.

The scan before was that of Darkseid's essence being shattered and spreading across. As Batman put it a dying God crawling in the shadows. Grant Morrison in an interview tells us Darkseid is the one dying God referenced throughout all of Final Crisis.

Also, they didn't say “Angels.” They said “spirits” as Radiant said they can not die until their master is gone. Cain confirms he is death and apparently Mandrakk drained them. None of that is confirmed because how can God be dying if they said he was already dead? There's no story to which Mandrakk was feeding on the Presence other than Darkseid being the only dying God.

It’s very interesting how Darkseid became the protector of the universe, and could leave it without protection, if he himself almost destroyed the multiverse? In the context of protecting the universe, only Yahweh was written. Many gods died in the Crisis, so you can write about anyone, but we’re talking only about the context.

Radiant was listed as an angel. I didn't write that Yahweh was killed or driven out by Mandrakk, he was killed by Anti-Life. Because it is simply a figure of speech or a literary description that Yahweh has abandoned the universe due to actions against him and cannot protect it. This contradicts itself, because Darkseid was already long dead at that time, killed by Black Racer, and he could not have died at that moment

 

[Brahmatman]

This point is meant to prove what? Everyone at some point claimed themselves as God.

If a character is not called by name, this does not permanently indicate that it is a different character. God in the Crisis was called the creator of angels, this is Yahweh, and no one else. I remember people asking when the Superman movie came out who the Man of Steel was and where Superman was. Well, they didn’t name the film after the character’s name, that doesn’t make the character different

 

[Elizio33]

I personally think that it seems like a bad idea to completely mix Christianity and Hinduism.

Then what do you suggest? After all, other authors have made notable contributions or stories sufficiently consistent with DeMatteis's stories, contributions which can be used to enrich DeMatteis's cosmology IMO.

 

[PrinceStories]

After all, other authors have made notable contributions or stories sufficiently consistent with DeMatteis's stories, contributions which can be used to enrich DeMatteis's cosmology IMO.

I agree with this, I don't think that's a bad idea to mix. As long as the material comic is similar or related to other comics, it can still be mixed even though there are different ideas from various authors. like DeMatteis's with meher baba philosophy and hinduism. Gaiman's, Carey's and Moore's with Christianity and the tree of life and kabbalah.

 

[Elizio33]

I agree with this, I don't think that's a bad idea to mix. As long as the material comic is similar or related to other comics, it can still be mixed even though there are different ideas from various authors. like DeMatteis's with meher baba philosophy and hinduism. Gaiman's, Carey's and Moore's with Christianity and the tree of life and kabbalah.

Well, I'll wait for others to comment first. Vertigo (Pre-Black Label) seems quite distinct and independent from the main DC continuity. If Alan Moore's Christian philosophy is too problematic to combine with DeMatteis' cosmology, then we will focus on other contributions closer to DeMatteis' Meher Baba philosophy and Hinduism. Maybe, and I said maybe, some of Grant Morrison's older works (pre-2000) could match those of DeMatteis, but not all.

 

[PrinceStories]

Vertigo (Pre-Black Label) seems quite distinct and independent from the main DC continuity

Vertigo (pre-black label) comics still have ties to mainstream DC through Sandman vol 2 and appearance Morpheus and Death in Dark Knight comics: A True Batman Story and.

If Alan Moore's Christian philosophy is too problematic to combine with DeMatteis' cosmology, then we will focus on other contributions closer to DeMatteis' Meher Baba philosophy and Hinduism.

Their ideas are not the same but if we look at continuity the comic, they are solid enough to be combined even though they have different ideas. That's similar to the crisis event comic material, which has different ideas but each material has an established continuity with each other that can be combined into a crisis cosmology. but whatever that's, I'll wait for other people's opinions.

 

[PrinceStories]

and I said maybe, some of Grant Morrison's older works (pre-2000) could match those of DeMatteis, but not all.

Works like Eternity Girl and Promethea also seem to have brought out the spiritual nature these comics I think we can also incorporate them into spiritual cosmology. but we need to discuss these comics.

 

[Antvasima]

Then what do you suggest? After all, other authors have made notable contributions or stories sufficiently consistent with DeMatteis's stories, contributions which can be used to enrich DeMatteis's cosmology IMO.

Well, DeMatteis has been quite consistent with the "cosmological" structures that he has set up based on his belief system, regardless if he has worked with Marvel Comics, DC Comics, or independently, so I am tempted to just say that we should scale from his intentions when we scale his "cosmology" independently, but suppose that may be a bad idea.

Can you explain how you can fit together other authors with DeMatteis, and the resulting tiering, in an easily understood manner please?

 

[Elizio33]

Vertigo (pre-black label) comics still have ties to mainstream DC through Sandman vol 2 and appearance Morpheus and Death in Dark Knight comics: A True Batman Story and.

Their ideas are not the same but if we look at continuity the comic, they are solid enough to be combined even though they have different ideas. That's similar to the crisis event comic material, which has different ideas but each material has an established continuity with each other that can be combined into a crisis cosmology. but whatever that's, I'll wait for other people's opinions.

Yes, it's true that contributions that don't have the same idea or philosophy could still be combined if their works are sufficiently consistent with each other, even if there are minor contradictions between them. This is why we agreed to combine Morrison, Snyder/Tynion, Joshua Williamson and some of Geoff Johns' work for Crisis Cosmology, despite the difference between them, they weren't relevant enough. If we can do the same thing for DeMatteis Cosmology, that would be great.

 

[PrinceStories]

Yes, it's true that contributions that don't have the same idea or philosophy could still be combined if their works are sufficiently consistent with each other, even if there are minor contradictions between them. This is why we agreed to combine Morrison, Snyder/Tynion, Joshua Williamson and some of Geoff Johns' work for Crisis Cosmology, despite the difference between them, they weren't relevant enough. If we can do the same thing for DeMatteis Cosmology, that would be great.

I agree with your opinion