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My apologies for interupting, but what do our staff members here think about this?
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General DC Comics Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Confluctor
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It's the same cosmology. This is how it was shown in the comic, this is not my personal invention, Darkseid is just more The void.
Void beyond Dc /=/ Void of the physical multiverse
According to the files, he subdued the entity using its equation
They used metaphors as a rationale for more superior things to each other, so it is not just a synonym or coincidence, but a deliberate inclusion of an entity more powerful than all the gods, although there were exceptions like Freedom or Hope, but this does not apply to Yahweh. This was indicated by the author in his comic, and not a personal interpretation.
He spoke precisely in the context of the supreme deity, written with a capital letter, this is very important when describing a deity. It was also claimed that angels cannot die while their creator is alive, but they died. This phrase has no meaning for Darkseid, because he is not the protector of the universe.
Darkseid isn't called Uxes, but that doesn't mean he's not Uxes. Yahweh and Allah were called, and the Presence, and God, this is simply the presence of many names for one being. And the fact that he was not called by name does not negate the fact that he is the creator and God of angels in the context of this comic
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You should rectify what you meant by the Void. The large Void outside all Creation and the domains of Night and Time is allegorical to the Greater Omniverse adhering to the same logic that houses an infinite amount Multiverses made by different creators.
That wasn't the point and even then it's not necessarily his raw power that did it.
They weren't necessarily superior, they were going in terms of scale. The concept of hunter and hunted can be very debased and compound when compared to life and death itself.
Yahweh's expression of freedom is due to his position as God made by humans. His freedom can not be in the way he wants like Lucifer because they aren't their own maker. Humans made Yahweh “God” and Lucifer “Devil.” They didn't choose to be those, they were inadvertently placed in such positions by beliefs. Though they don't have typical freedom, both have straight up said no to the system several times.
The scan before was that of Darkseid's essence being shattered and spreading across. As Batman put it a dying God crawling in the shadows. Grant Morrison in an interview tells us Darkseid is the one dying God referenced throughout all of Final Crisis.
Also, they didn't say “Angels.” They said “spirits” as Radiant said they can not die until their master is gone. Cain confirms he is death and apparently Mandrakk drained them. None of that is confirmed because how can God be dying if they said he was already dead? There's no story to which Mandrakk was feeding on the Presence other than Darkseid being the only dying God.
This point is meant to prove what? Everyone at some point claimed themselves as God.
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But John's cosmology is literally mix of them...
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Will DeMatteis Cosmology include his collaborative works or will it just be his solo stuff? DeMatteis has worked with Keith Giffen on multiple occasions so would those comics which they worked together on, be included? And like @Ehnkr2beboh pointed out
https://vsbattles.com/threads/general-dc-comics-discussion-thread.139601/post-6265112
Are you going to include parts of Emperor Joker's arc into DeMatteis cosmology?
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The answer to the first question is unneeded, I just checked the Cosmology blog, and his collaborative works are included(Larfleeze). But I will like an answer to the second question.
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Some of Keith Giffen's works are so connected to DeMatteis continuity that they will no doubt be included as well.
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No, they are residents of the Sphere of the Gods, and cannot reach such a level due to the cosmological hierarchy. These are ordinary physical multiverses, not multiverses on Overvoid.
Let them do what they want, the main point is that Anti-Life is a killer of gods in the Vertigo cosmology, which they so love without reason to consider as a different cosmology on this wiki. Or we can say that Yahweh is God beyond the gods, but then this would be contrary to his so-called status. By the way, the Endlesw are beyond the gods, but Yahweh, for some reason, is stronger. As I already wrote, being outside of something is not necessarily superior to something.
It’s very interesting how Darkseid became the protector of the universe, and could leave it without protection, if he himself almost destroyed the multiverse? In the context of protecting the universe, only Yahweh was written. Many gods died in the Crisis, so you can write about anyone, but we’re talking only about the context.
Radiant was listed as an angel. I didn't write that Yahweh was killed or driven out by Mandrakk, he was killed by Anti-Life. Because it is simply a figure of speech or a literary description that Yahweh has abandoned the universe due to actions against him and cannot protect it. This contradicts itself, because Darkseid was already long dead at that time, killed by Black Racer, and he could not have died at that moment
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If a character is not called by name, this does not permanently indicate that it is a different character. God in the Crisis was called the creator of angels, this is Yahweh, and no one else. I remember people asking when the Superman movie came out who the Man of Steel was and where Superman was. Well, they didn’t name the film after the character’s name, that doesn’t make the character different
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Then what do you suggest? After all, other authors have made notable contributions or stories sufficiently consistent with DeMatteis's stories, contributions which can be used to enrich DeMatteis's cosmology IMO.
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I agree with this, I don't think that's a bad idea to mix. As long as the material comic is similar or related to other comics, it can still be mixed even though there are different ideas from various authors. like DeMatteis's with meher baba philosophy and hinduism. Gaiman's, Carey's and Moore's with Christianity and the tree of life and kabbalah.
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Well, I'll wait for others to comment first. Vertigo (Pre-Black Label) seems quite distinct and independent from the main DC continuity. If Alan Moore's Christian philosophy is too problematic to combine with DeMatteis' cosmology, then we will focus on other contributions closer to DeMatteis' Meher Baba philosophy and Hinduism. Maybe, and I said maybe, some of Grant Morrison's older works (pre-2000) could match those of DeMatteis, but not all.
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Vertigo (pre-black label) comics still have ties to mainstream DC through Sandman vol 2 and appearance Morpheus and Death in Dark Knight comics: A True Batman Story and.
Their ideas are not the same but if we look at continuity the comic, they are solid enough to be combined even though they have different ideas. That's similar to the crisis event comic material, which has different ideas but each material has an established continuity with each other that can be combined into a crisis cosmology. but whatever that's, I'll wait for other people's opinions.
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Works like Eternity Girl and Promethea also seem to have brought out the spiritual nature these comics I think we can also incorporate them into spiritual cosmology. but we need to discuss these comics.
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Well, DeMatteis has been quite consistent with the "cosmological" structures that he has set up based on his belief system, regardless if he has worked with Marvel Comics, DC Comics, or independently, so I am tempted to just say that we should scale from his intentions when we scale his "cosmology" independently, but suppose that may be a bad idea.
Can you explain how you can fit together other authors with DeMatteis, and the resulting tiering, in an easily understood manner please?
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Yes, it's true that contributions that don't have the same idea or philosophy could still be combined if their works are sufficiently consistent with each other, even if there are minor contradictions between them. This is why we agreed to combine Morrison, Snyder/Tynion, Joshua Williamson and some of Geoff Johns' work for Crisis Cosmology, despite the difference between them, they weren't relevant enough. If we can do the same thing for DeMatteis Cosmology, that would be great.
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I agree with your opinion
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It's too early to give you an answer, but I will start by searching for as much information as possible after the holidays and provide you with an appropriate answer later.
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Okay. Thank you for helping out.It's too early to give you an answer, but I will start by searching for as much information as possible after the holidays and provide you with an appropriate answer later.
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This is a very peculiar cosmology change.
Planetime and Cubetime are listed above the Multiversity map because they are dimensions of Hypertime, and Hypertime encompasses the Omniverse, which is a little strange considering Hypertime literally encompasses all possible universes, so why exactly would Cubetime and Planetime be any different?
The Dark Multiverse and the Other place are listed beyond even the Monitor sphere which is weird, considering the Other place is literally just a dark Sphere of Gods, and thus, vibrates on the level of the SoG, not the Monitor sphere.
Edit: Of course, there is a lot of comments to be made at the Overvoid/Source/Presence section but eh. In another time, I guess
Planetime and Cubetime are listed above the Multiversity map because they are dimensions of Hypertime, and Hypertime encompasses the Omniverse, which is a little strange considering Hypertime literally encompasses all possible universes, so why exactly would Cubetime and Planetime be any different?
The Dark Multiverse and the Other place are listed beyond even the Monitor sphere which is weird, considering the Other place is literally just a dark Sphere of Gods, and thus, vibrates on the level of the SoG, not the Monitor sphere.
Edit: Of course, there is a lot of comments to be made at the Overvoid/Source/Presence section but eh. In another time, I guess
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I don’t understand what the problem is in uniting cosmologies if they have similar concepts. Marvel cosmology is united without problems, although it has different authors, or the World of Darkness
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It would probably be a good idea to make a CRT to split Marvel's cosmology if you think gathering the evidence you have is worth the effort
Williams249
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Elaborate
I think it's mainly because the Dark Multiverse is the dark opposite to the Light Multiverse/Multiversity Map. There's a bit of a weird equivocation between DM and Otherplace, yes. So Otherplace should scale to SoG (L-1C) and Dark Multiverse should be H-1C, probably.
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Hypertime is listed in the same place as the Divine Continuum/Totality of Creation. It is the time aspect of existence and a three-dimensional time dimension, which seems like higher infinities given that cube time is where beings see the creation below from a higher-dimensional perspective (i.e. flat) as mentioned in The Return of Bruce Wayne. I know Morrison said in an interview that Cube time is our real world but in the same interview he also talked about hypercube time, a concept never mentioned in the comics so I wouldn't count that interview. I'm basing this on information from the Bruce Wayne Returns story.
The Dark Multiverse is listed above the Monitor Sphere because the entire map of the multiverse floats on it, as Kendra Saunders used the entire map to describe how big the Dark Multiverse is. Another example is in Steve Orlando's The Unexpected series, when Mandrakk fell into the Overvoid, he landed in the Dark Multiverse, and the Monitor Sphere was depicted as being an intermediary between the Main DC Multiverse and the Dark Multiverse throughout the story.
The Other Place is an empty void of space surrounding the Dark Multiverse that was infected by the Upside-Down Man using "his reality."
What kind of comments?
Edit: Hypertime is composed of three time dimensions (line time, plane time, and cube time, hence the reason why Hypertime is a 3-D temporal dimension)
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This was a point made by Grant which isn't sufficient enough for how they were viewed in Neil Gaiman's writing. Even then, the Monitors can dream, die, or have a destiny. Presumably, they being in the Sphere has no correlation to their reach and power since not every being is equal in power to each other in the Sphere.
Anti-life is the message behind the death of the Universe. Alongside its many names that would naturally occur as the Duke literally mentions the many things you can it.
Endless are beyond the gods in scope. Yahweh clearly isn't just a mere “god” his like the pantheons. He literally made Creation and defined all its laws. The Endless popped up as a side effect of that making and the gods were born after the Dream. Even then, him as Yahweh was made because humans had enough collective “dreams” to change all of reality from the beginning and end.
The only “dying god” in context was Darkseid. He didn't protect the Universe, he wanted to drag it all down while being the ultimate final God before he did. He was broken and wounded like how Mandrakk and Batman described him.
The Anti-Life forces submission to the user's will. It wasn't used to end the gods. That happened as a follow-up of Death of the New Gods which Final Crisis is supposed to take place after. That was what the “war in Heaven” was.
The Host of Darkseid was killed, not the entity. Superman literally talked to Darkseid in his Turner form before shattering his essence. He retreated and shortly after did Mandrakk appeared.
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I get that. But it assumes Hypertime to be a place that envelopes the Multiverse even though it's essentially an abstract force governing all of it.
Cubetime and Planetime aren't any higher then any other realm in Hypertime, especially not to the point that Planetime (which is very explicitly just timelines), essentially encompasses separate Multiversity maps by sheer size (which we know to be untrue, because the issue was taking place in the Vanishing Point, which we know to be at the end of a single linetime, so how exactly is a Linetime a higher dimension in comparison to the entire map).
That doesn't make much sense imo, the Fuginauts for example exist in the branefold interior, which separates all spaces and times, which does extend to the Dark Multiverse considering they monitor the Dark timelines and make sure that they don't seep into reality.
The branefold interior is very explicitly physical, and thus, the spaces surrounding the Dark Multiverse are also physical. We already know physical and matter-based things don't extend past the speed force, so the Dark Multiverse also does not. There is a lot more, but the Dark Multiverse cannot really extend that far into the cosmology.
I am not aware of any instances of it being seen as the intermediary between the Multiverse and the Dark Multiverse throughout the Unexpected. But there is a pretty important thing to recognize regarding the Monitors, the Overvoid can erase them and bring them back again, we see this with Nix at the end of Final Crisis #7 when he gets erased into the Void as it erases the panels and then is seen waking up in the Multiverse.
So the Overvoid erases, and if it decides to "spare you as its only interface with the Multiverse" (i.e. what happened to Nix) it can spawn you anywhere.
And thus, Mandrakk didn't "fall" into the Dark Multiverse, he got his idea erased as FC said, and then reformed in Unexpected. We simply did not receive context of how he got there.
Here is the thing, it is also just an opposite of the Sphere of Gods.
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Again, relevance?
My point has nothing to do with this. You're a statement of being shaving title as their name is common and general knowledge. The point is what was being misunderstood that you needed to bring that point. Overall, it sounds moot and irrelevant.
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1. Yeah I know, but they are part of Hypertime. They are temporal dimensions composing a three-dimensional time-based concept that is Hypertime.
2. The entire map of the multiverse was used to describe the Dark Multiverse, so it makes sense.
3. Just like the Dark Multiverse is the dark opposite of the main DC Multiverse, but it's still way bigger than it. It is the same with the Other Place and the Sphere of the Gods.
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I agree the Otherplace and Dark Multiverse are beyond the entire Map. It's not part of the order of created things and not tied to the Light Multiverse.
As Diana States everything Hecate did, the Upside Dowman did the opposite. Since the Otherplace is located within the darker Multiverse it is indeed beyond the reach of the Monitor Sphere. Probably far predates it as well.
As Diana States everything Hecate did, the Upside Dowman did the opposite. Since the Otherplace is located within the darker Multiverse it is indeed beyond the reach of the Monitor Sphere. Probably far predates it as well.
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Well, lets get something out of the way, linetime does not encompass the entire map no matter how you want to look at it, this would imply that the Vanishing point exists at the endpoint of not just the entire Multiverse, but the entire MultiversIty map, which needless to say, would be completely nonsensical from it's many instances of clearly existing at the end of the time dimension of a single Earth.
So off the bat, linetime is not a higher time dimension in comparison to the map, Planetime is a whole lot of Linetimes lined up perpendicularly and Cubetime is the same for Planetime.
You'd be describing 3 time dimensions (i.e. an overall rating of 1-C/8-D) for the Multiverse, not 3 time dimensions for the map. Consistent with Allen Adams scan.
Responding to the rest later.
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Similar concepts and descriptions within John's cosmology (Bleedspace, realm of lords, gods, collective unconscious, dreamworld, nightmare's realm, heaven and hell etc).
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I didn't say that line time and plane time encompass the entire map of the multiverse, but Hypertime does. These are temporal dimensions that make up Hypertime, that's all.
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They do not make up all of Hypertime considering there is evidently other realms outside of these three that make up Hypertime.
You are, again, ignoring my core argument here, Linetime is evidently not a time dimension, but rather a timeline (literally in the name), and it also evidently is not beyond the Multiversity map. Planetime and Cubetime are only two levels of infinity beyond that.
TimeTrapperFanBoy
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Elizio didn’t ignore your argument, he literally said that only Hypertime encompasses the Multiversity map.
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I didn't disagree with that. However he said that Planetime and Cubetime were beyond the map, something that not only isn't built up by anything, has things against it.
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No, I didn't say that and I didn't ignore your argument. You're mixing things up, I just said that Hypertime encompasses the map and not line time or plane time encompasses the map.
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Alright then, I apologise.
Why are Cubetime and Planetime listed as being beyond the Multiversity map when they are clearly layered timelines.
TimeTrapperFanBoy
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Where do you see that?
I don’t see anything in the cosmology blog that aligns to this, besides Hypertime as a whole encompassing the multiverse.
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No problem at all!
To answer your question, it is Hypertime which is beyond the map since it is half of the Divine Continuum. Line time, plane time and cube time are time-based layers or dimensions that constitute Hypertime according to Morrison, which is why he described Hypertime as a three-dimensional concept.Line time refers to a linear timeline = 1 time dimension, plane time as a "two-dimensional" plane encompassing all line times = two time dimensions, and cube time as the perpendicular of plane time = 3 time dimensions.
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IdiosyncraticLawyer
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Typing this already-rejected complaint up in big font doesn't make it any more valid.
I would hardly say so; Ultima already proved extensively that Marvel's cosmology doesn't need to be split, besides Jim Starlin's canon, which he already split but hasn't made profiles for yet.
