StarCraft Major Revision Thread Attempt 2

[Qawsedf234]

Do these help? They use Psionics to augment their natural physical strength and endurance. But this seems to be a generalization for generic Ghosts and not Ghosts on the level of Nova & Kerrigan

VS Battles Wiki

The VS Battles Wiki is the world's most comprehensive and popular index of statistics and powers for characters and items from all of popular fiction.

vsbattles.fandom.com

VS Battles Wiki

The VS Battles Wiki is the world's most comprehensive and popular index of statistics and powers for characters and items from all of popular fiction.

vsbattles.fandom.com

Yeah that'd be enough.

I'm curious of how to make a Psionics Powers page since they're all so varied and not everyone shares the same powers aside from basic ones which are better off individually listed on pages tbh.

If there's little to no overlap then it would be better for profile specific stuff.

Kerrigan is the most powerful known psionic user outside of Amon and she's deemed superior to Archons like the Twilight Archon even before going Primal

While I don't doubt your claim, what you've given isn't enough on its own to support said claim.

It would probably be better to scale people to whatever that storm calc gets in the comic than to scale everyone to Kerrigan if she so much better.

 

[Not_Icarus]

Psionics amping yourself physically are at least ok now given we have living psionic energy beings who are deemed as a heavy tier normal unit you can make ingame.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Also what issue are all those black and white comic scans coming from?

 

[Not_Icarus]

They're from StarCraft Frontline. Official comics from Blizzard they made to promote SC2 before it launched. Twilight Archon is the name of the comic chapter there.

 

[Qawsedf234]

They're from StarCraft Frontline. Official comics from Blizzard they made to promote SC2 before it launched. Twilight Archon is the name of the comic chapter there.

The nuclear explosion thing from that comic isn't actually a nuke. You can make out a Hydrolisk in the explosion.

The storm may be worth something but the comic also treats it as a weird casting action so idk.

Imo going off your suggestion I say "At least X (Whatever value we scale the basic nukes to), likely High-Low 6-A (The storm calcs).

Would make the inconsistencies less noticeable.

 

[Not_Icarus]

There wasn't a nuke in twilight archon actually. The artist just made the transformation look like a mini mushroom cloud. I can see the twilight archon storm feat being a potential lower end feat for the heavy tiers ngl. Another powerful Archon like Ulrezaj was harmed by Scourges (these guys are hilariously consistent in being god tier for the most part) and Yamato blasts. And I'm pretty much already planning that honestly. Given Primal Kerrigan when she was just starting out was roughly 200 petatons and shortly got much stronger afterwards by absorbing similarly powerful beings like her. Even being in the same tier as her already makes you massively below her in power. Baseline Primal Kerrigan VS Baseline High 6-A is essentially a 40x gap in power.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

stuff like projectile speeds and caliber

Can we use this as a Support Calc Feat for Marine Impaler Rifles? (Obviously a lowball since Impaler round projectiles, based on a visual comparison between the complete ammunition and a spent casing, seem to have a far longer, thus heavier, projectile than a SLAP round. Hence the projectile being referred to as a 8 mm "Needle" or a "Spike"

C-14 U238 DU Ammunition

Complete Ammunition
Spent Casing

The casing is marked with "KAL .50 AUTO", the immediate thing a person would assume is that would be its Caliber and the type of gun that uses this Caliber, an Automatic weapon.

Also notice that the spent casing lacks its conical portion compared to the complete ammunition.

Projectile Diameter
Projectile Diameter, and use of Gauss Tech & Gunpowder

The Projectile is accelerated by both Gunpowder and Gauss Technology to Hypersonic Speeds

In summary, it's a .50 Cal (12.7mm) cartridge casing that houses a smaller 8mm caliber projectile

Real World Equivalent

M903 .50 Cal SLAP Round
Saboted Light Armor Penetrator

A .50 Cal Cartridge that uses a reduced caliber, heavy metal (tungsten) .30 inch (7.62mm) diameter penetrator wrapped in a plastic sabot of .50 inch (12.7mm) diameter.



CALC

Baseline Hypersonic Velocity (1715 m/s)

VS Battles Wiki

The VS Battles Wiki is the world's most comprehensive and popular index of statistics and powers for characters and items from all of popular fiction.

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Combining Cartridge Velocity (4000 fps = 1219.2 m/s) + Baseline Hypersonic Velocity (1715 m/s) = 2934.2 m/s, still Hypersonic

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/File:Screenshot_2023-11-05-12-31-33-843_com.brave.browser.jpg

Remember this is just the Kinetic Energy of the Projectile, this doesn't even include it's Penetrative Capability.

9:40 & 11:50


A SLAP Tracer Round and a regular SLAP round is capable of penetrating 2 inches of Titanium which is somewhat similar to the statement of C-14 rifles capable of piercing 2 inches of steel.

 

[Qawsedf234]

The Projectile is accelerated by both Gunpowder and Gauss Technology to Hypersonic Speeds

If it's dual stagged you can't add the speed together. It would just be the minimum hypersonic speeds. Since you need both the gunpowder and magnetic coils to reach those velocities.

 

[Not_Icarus]

I got another 8-B calc for the verse that scales to basic units like Stalkers and Dragoons. The cannon is based off Protoss Phase Disruptor technology and should be comparable and if not stronger than a less technologically advance Terran replication of said tech. As in the StarCraft Shadow of the Xel'Naga novel, a dragoon took out much more than just a Spectre and the wall behind him.

Simple StarCraft Atomization Calc

vsbattles.fandom.com

Also here's an 8-B feat for the Baneling

Vaporizing a marine (StarCraft)

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

If it's dual stagged you can't add the speed together. It would just be the minimum hypersonic speeds. Since you need both the gunpowder and magnetic coils to reach those velocities.

So would the Baseline Hypersonic version work as a LowBall/Supporting Feat?

Since it seems Marine Rifles would still scale to whatever they scale to.

 

[Qawsedf234]

got another 8-B calc for the verse that scales to basic units like Stalkers.

You may have high balled the weapon. Atomization is destroying something into sub-atomic partials or individual atoms. Molecular level is just undoing Molecular bonds of compounds.

 

[Qawsedf234]

So would the Baseline Hypersonic version work as a LowBall/Supporting Feat?

Afaik it's not a lowball. It would just be the canon useable speed for the projectile.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Afaik it's not a lowball. It would just be the canon useable speed for the projectile.

I'm talking about the resulting Kinetic Energy from using the SLAP round's projectile mass with Baseline Hypersonic Velocity.

 

[Not_Icarus]

Funny part is that phase disruptors are stated to be an antimatter weapon and even the terran one can disintegrate even the toughest of terran materials. But yeah that is an interesting point. Although the panel still also says that it takes apart atom by atom.

"Phase disruptors were employed by dragoons, arbiters, and photon cannons. These weapons fired antimatter bolts sheathed in a psychically charged field. Photon cannons use similar weaponry. During the Great War, larger phase disruptor cannons were outfitted onto the arbiter.[1] By the beginning of the End War, arbiters were outfitted with a phase disruptor variant named the warpspace cannon.[2]"

"After the End War, a terran design to the phase disruptor was developed. It was a rifle with a tripod setup, and could disintegrate some of the toughest materials known to terrans. The principle functioned the same as the protoss variant.

Agent Nova Terra participated in the operation to recover a prototype for the Terran Dominion. This design was later used to break into the Keep, allowing Nova to break through the vault containing sensitive Terran Dominion documents.[7]"

 

[Not_Icarus]

Aside from psionic storm being stated to also atomize you at the atomic level.

Particle Disruptors are also similar to phase disruptors and are described as this powerful.

"Particle disruptors are a protoss technology used by the Nerazim, utilized by stalkers,[1] annihilators,[2] and the instigators of the Purifiers.[3] These weapons call upon the training of the dark templar pilot to fire lethal blasts of entropic Void energy. Each shot destabilizes matter at a fundamental level, and ultimately tears it apart by disintegrating its atomic composition. This destabilizing effect makes particle disruptors particularly effective against armored targets.[1]"

And the ones the Stalkers used are deemed weaker than Dragoons' phase disruptors even though they destroy matter down to its atomic composition.

 

[Qawsedf234]

But yeah that is an interesting point. Although the panel still also says that it takes apart atom by atom.

The left travel didn't load on my phone, so I only saw the center.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Would this be helpful? There is where I usually find SC stuff

StarCraft Short Story Archive

Shared with Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

 

[Not_Icarus]

I have all of the eu material saved and links for access but yes that's also useful.

 

[Not_Icarus]

Just to be clear, currently I plan to scale many of the heavy tiers to be a combination of the many approved stuff right now. Similar to how Warcraft solved their power inconsistency issues problems by making their tiers like "At least 7A, Likely 6-A+, Possibly 5-B"

A similar thing will likely happen to the lower tiers and on lower scales unless they have reason to go beyond that like Nova for example

At least Low 7-C (basic nukes), likely High 6-C (Leviathan scaling), possibly/likely High 6-A (Kerrigan storm feat)

This way the verse gets a more varied amount of potential match ups too

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

At least Low 7-C (basic nukes)

Tactical Nukes should just be 7-C based on the 10 Kiloton statement from Evolution for the missiles onboard the Hyperion, and them being called Tactical Nukes, since 10 Kilotons is in the same ballpark as current Tactical Nuclear Weapons.

Yield

The yield varies for a tactical nuclear weapon from a fraction of a kiloton to approximately 50 kilotons.[7] In comparison, a strategic nuclear weapon has a yield from 100 kilotons to over a megaton, with much larger warheads available.[7] ~ Wikipedia

Might as well as post this for SC's bigger Nukes

Glassing of Korhal

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Not_Icarus]

Oh right my bad 10 kilotons is baseline 7-C and not Low 7-C lol.

 

[Not_Icarus]

Speaking of nukes, this is a nice reminder that Battlecruisers can launch a multitude types of nukes on both ground and air targets so that should also help in the tier 6 legitimacies.

The nuking of Korhal included 2 major oceans btw. Although there is no solid knowledge for how big they were unfortunately.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

HEV Commando Rifle

Unknown Ammo Information (Either HEV or Penetrator)

.95 TERRAN P SUBSONIC
HEV-T 500 g / 12,000 g
Vo 1050 fps / 320 m/s

.95 Caliber = 24.13 mm
1050 fps = 320.04 m/s
Mass = 500g (0.5 kg) or 12,000g (12 kg)

KE = ½mv²

KE = ½(0.5)(320.04)² = 25,606.4004 J

KE = ½(12)(320.04)² = 614,553.61 J

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Speaking of nukes, this is a nice reminder that Battlecruisers can launch a multitude types of nukes on both ground and air targets so that should also help in the tier 6 legitimacies.

When fully charged, the Yamato cannon has explosive force equal to a low-yield nuclear explosion ~ SC1 Manual

Though this seems to be just for the Pre-Brood War Era Behemoth Battlecruisers.

Post-Brood War Era would have undoubtedly better yields since then due to advancements in technology

 

[Not_Icarus]

They banned apocalypse class nukes actually but they weren't stopped from being used on rare occassions like that time in ghost academy. So it's pretty possible given the multitude of leaps in tech the terrans gained in sc2. Also while the Yamato cannon got improved, evolution also compared it to the 7-C nukes so there's that. The merging of tier 7 and 6 should allow both to coexist.

Also that's a fine hev rifle calc. Seems we have a lower end speed for the sniper rifles in SC now. Although I'd just scale the speed to the canister sniper rifles and gauss rifle which are all described as around hypersonic and given it's portrayed as more powerful than all of them. HEV rifle also fires 2 types of rounds like the normal rounds and penetrator rounds. Latter is honestly heavy tier given there were confirmed cases of an ultralisk and omegalisk in belly of the beast. It's also Raynor's 2nd portrayal of taking down Ultralisks with a snper rifle.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Although I'd just scale the speed to the canister sniper rifles and gauss rifle which are all described as around hypersonic

launch the spines with enough force to penetrate 2 cm. of neosteel[2] at a range of over 300 meters[19] or even half a kilometer[3] at a velocity greater than that of the C-20A rifle,[19] moving at near hypersonic speeds.[4]

C-14 Rifle Ammunition = Hypersonic > Hydralisk Spines = Near Hypersonic or At Least Supersonic+ > C-20A Rifle Ammunition ~ C-10 Rifle Ammunition = At Least Supersonic > AGR-14 Rifle Ammunition = Supersonic

“Thou shalt not kill,” he says, but he raises an AGR-14 gauss rifle in the front of the class.

“Here, Ardo,” the brother says, walking to where the boy sat near the back of the classroom. He hands the 8-millimeter automatic weapon to the young boy who has not been paying attention. “Do unto others,” he says as the boy takes the weapon.

The boy drifts away in the bubble but the weapon remains, smooth and seductive. Magnetic acceleration of the projectile to supersonic speeds with enormous kinetic punch utilizing a variety of jacketless slugs
from depleted uranium to steel-tipped infantry rounds. ~ Speed of Darkness

 

[Not_Icarus]

Here's the kicker about the canister rifles. They have a canonical range of 5 kilometers in the HotS tie in comic. Kerrigan assassinates people with the older c-10 model and the c-20 is an improvement in every way

It makes more sense for the canister rifles to be stronger, faster and have longer range than the gauss rifles since the point of sniper rifles are exactly that

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Here's the kicker about the canister rifles. They have a canonical range of 5 kilometers in the HotS tie in comic. Kerrigan assassinates people with the older c-10 model and the c-20 is an improvement in every way

You realize she could still pull that off from that range with Supersonic speeds it'd just take a couple of seconds, and she wasn't alone there were two other Ghosts present as stated in the SC1 Manual & StarCraft: Uprising

So how does that translate into its velocity?

The rifle could have a velocity anywhere in between 377.3 m/s and 1715 m/s since it's stated to slower than a Hydralisk Spine which in turn is stated to be slower than a C-14's Hypersonic Velocity

Let's give the projectile multiple ends:

• 617.4 m/s from ([377.4+857.5] ÷2) Supersonic Speed Median

• 857.5 m/s (Baseline Supersonic+)

• 1286.25 m/s from ([857.5 + 1715]÷2) Supersonic+ Speed Median

T = D/S
D = 5KM = 5000 m

T = 5000 m ÷ 617.4 m/s = 8.09847749 s

T = 5000 m ÷ 857.5 m/s = 5.83090379 s

T = 5000 m ÷ 1286.25 m/s = 3.88726919 s

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Longest recorded sniper kills - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Not_Icarus]

That's a nice calc. Although it does feel weird tbh that canister rifles are slower than gauss rifles when they're stronger and designated as sniper rifle/automatic weapon hybrid. Odd too how the spines upgrade make them faster but have lower range than the canister rifles. But I guess that's that.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

That's a nice calc. Although it does feel weird tbh that canister rifles are slower than gauss rifles when they're stronger and designated as sniper rifle/automatic weapon hybrid.

It's not though? Ghost rifles are designed to be compact therefore lack the hefty technology that powers the coils or rails that accelerate projectiles within a C-14 Rifle.

C-14 Rifle = Big & Blocky, powered by both the tech within it, and the Marine Power Armor.

They compensate that weakness with a larger caliber, 25 mm caliber bullet, but sacrifice the number of bullets the rifle can carry.

Bigger Bullets = Fewer Bullets in a Magazine

 

[Not_Icarus]

How do we deal with Gauss Rifle range now anyways

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

How do we deal with Gauss Rifle range now anyways

Imo,

Hundreds of Meters Effective Firing Range since that seems to be the range that a full auto burst is still somewhat accurate and able to hit its target as portrayed in the different media's

Several Kilometers Maximum Firing Range, full auto bursts would no doubt be inaccurate against small, fast moving targets. But precise single shots would be ok.

 

[Not_Icarus]

So it's a mix of the Hydralisk and Ghost range. Sounds pretty good.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Herakles KE aka the Battlecruiser that rammed the White Star during the events of Flashpoint. The White Star was damaged but was still fully functional.

1601761344683196208 joules = 382.8 Megatons of KE

25,205 fps is the velocity of the Bucephalus, stated to be a Gorgon Class Battlecruiser but is consistently depicted as a Behemoth Class Battlecruiser, flew at when it just came out of Warp, so it wasn't at its top speed ~ WoL, Heir Apparent Cinematic

54,278,079.8 tons is the result of this calc by Diamond Drone of the Minotaur Class Battlecruiser the smaller relative of the Behemoth Class and Gorgon Class Battlecruisers

 

[Not_Icarus]

I think we can use a better and more appropriate speed than that. The Bucephalus was trying get closer and board the Hyperion instead of ramming it. The Herakles iirc was going full power on its speed to ram the White Star out of commission. The Shuttle should be a good potential reference. It's an old ship but it can reach escape velocity and more with the engine upgrade. The Shuttle is also comparable to all the spacecraft and flyers like the mutalisks in the game. A kilometer long steel brick going at escape velocity in space would be interesting to see in terms of results.

There's not really any solid evidences of minotaurs and behemoths having different sizes. They're pretty inconsistent plus carriers and battlecruisers are stated to be on par and are kilometer long and that's pretty straightforward and simple. Some inconsistencies are like the Bucephalus (a Gorgon class battlecruiser) being 550 meters long and behemoths being described as entire football fields long. Going with the 1 kilometer statement from the field manual should be pretty ideal ngl.

Another noteworthy feat are the asteroids they destroyed in Prometheus station. They got reduced to dust large enough for both the Hyperion and Bucephalus to hide in. Other calc folks like in space battles got yields around 20 kilotons which lines in pretty well with the 7-C low ends.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

I think we can use a better and more appropriate speed than that. The Bucephalus' was trying get closer and board the Hyperion instead of ramming it. The Herakles iirc was going full power on its speed to ram the White Star out of commission. The Shuttle should be a good potential reference. It's an old ship but it can reach escape velocity and more with the engine upgrade. The Shuttle is also comparable to all the spacecraft and flyers like the mutalisks in the game. A kilometer long steel brick going at escape velocity in space would be interesting to see in terms of results.

Do you have anything to suggest that the shuttle's thrusters are in anyway comparable to a Battlecruiser's thrusters

The shuttle can reach escape velocity because of its thruster to weight ratio

It's like comparing a speedboat and a cruise ship, and saying the cruise ship is as fast as speedboat

There's not really any solid evidences of minotaurs and behemoths having different sizes.

Except we're shown that they're smaller than the Hyperion or Behemoths in WoL and LotV

 

[Not_Icarus]

They're flying in space so I think we can make a case for that like how Star Wars ships like Star Destroyers reach sub-relitavistics speeds in space. Certainly faster than the cruising speed the Bucephalus was going at.

The Hyperion is inconsistent. Sometimes it's shown as larger than other battlecruisers like in Hyperion mission in HotS, just the same as the other minotaur generic battlecruisers during the escape from Mengsk's fleet during the beginning of hots and it's directly comparable to the Bucephalus (550 meter gorgon ship) whenever they're shown together. The field manual also doesn't give us a class type for the battlecruiser shown in its contents. The scale is much is simpler if we went with the field manual's description instead. Especially when the carrier used in the size comparisons there is explicitly the sc2 version and it's placed right next to a 3 kilometer mothership.

Also you can argue the whole ingame hero size scaling for the heroes the same way for the hyperion. Jimmy isn't larger than other marines, he's the same.

 

[Not_Icarus]

Also nvm I've found an even faster speed for battlecruisers in space.

Btw they also got the yamato cannon that was shown in NCO but the wiki never listed it down

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

They're flying in space so I think we can make a case for that like how Star Wars ships like Star Destroyers reach sub-relitavistics speeds in space. Certainly faster than the cruising speed the Bucephalus was going at.

Yeah after accelerating for some time, something we don't have with the Herakles and White Star situation hence substituting it with a known value instead of assuming and highballing.

The Hyperion is inconsistent. Sometimes it's shown as larger than other battlecruisers like in Hyperion mission in HotS, just the same as the other minotaur generic battlecruisers during the escape from Mengsk's fleet during the beginning of hots and it's directly comparable to the Bucephalus (550 gorgon meter ship) whenever they're shown together. The field manual also doesn't give us a class type for the battlecruiser shown in its contents. The scale is much is simpler if we went with the field manual's description instead. Especially when the carrier used in the size comparisons there is explicitly the sc2 version and it's placed right next to a 3 kilometer mothership.

Then give me the weight of the Herakles then? Or calculate the weight of the Hyperion since it's the closest analogue to the Herakles.