StarCraft Major Revision Thread Attempt 2

[OneBleachHurricane]

Also nvm I've found an even faster speed for battlecruisers in space.

Yeah I'm aware of this, so explain what qualifies as a Cycle?

What measure of time is a Cycle?

In-System Speed obviously refers to a Battlecruiser's speed within a Star System, but what does Cycle refer?

 

[Not_Icarus]

An AU is the time it takes to go from the Earth to the Sun (using space speed). A cycle should be a day though probably as it likely references the cycle of night and day. We don't have any 1 kilometer calc values unfortunately.

 

[Not_Icarus]

Also solar system travelling warp jumpless wraiths from pre-bw. This lines up with planet hoppers which are warp jumpless ships that only travel within their own star system.

 

[Not_Icarus]

Herakles is also explicitly going at full speed in the span of 7 seconds

 

[Qawsedf234]

High 6-C (Leviathan scaling),

Leviathan scaling would be axed. It doesn't meer our KE rules.

 

[Not_Icarus]

Really? I thought as long as something was above 200 kilograms, it can be used for KE scaling.

They are visualized (badly) in cutscenes. They're pretty much only seen well in gameplay

 

[Qawsedf234]

Really? I thought as long as something was above 200 kilograms, it can be used for KE scaling.

• The calculated kinetic energy value is heavily inconsistent with the rest of the cast in the series. EX: Quicksilver's calculated speed cannot be used to derive kinetic energy as it heavily contradicts his established power levels.
• There is a destruction/AP calculation contradicting a kinetic energy calculation. The destruction/AP calculation would take priority over the kinetic energy calculation in this case as the AP calculation would be a better proof in regards to how much damage he/she is capable of in an attack.
  • For example, if a character launches a 200kg metal ball against a common wall at Mach 300, but the wall remains largely undamaged, the energy required to cause the minor damage on the wall would take priority over the kinetic energy derived from speed in this case.

Giant characters, while having an easier tike getting a baseline tier, would still need to meet the KE rules in some capacity. Just being big and moving isn't a feat.

Though ramming can be a specialized rating if you can prove peak acceleration and the ship surviving iirc.

 

[Not_Icarus]

Aw well, that sucks lol. Well there is the class g calc from the ke calc itself so that's might be convertable to AP at least. Although I'm no math guy so idk the values of that in AP and simpler terms/numbers. Pretty much the sheer weight and sizes of the tentacles and the Leviathan itself. It can hold together a multi-kilometer long giant ship from exploding for a pretty fairly long but unstated amount of time.

(Nvm I can't find a way to convert the class g into ap damn)

The ships can survive ramming. The ship that rammed against the White Star was already badly damaged and the ship it crashed into survived and was still combat capable but can't chase other ships anymore.

 

[Not_Icarus]

Also is it really that unusable? The leviathan tentacles are still its main method of physical attack and it pierced through a heavily massive armored transport ship in the cutscene video link (the most notorious one too) and broke through many layers of futuristic metal and was also capable of stopping it from exploding for a long time with its tentacles. It's not like the ship was largely undamaged when it got attacked by the tentacles.

 

[Not_Icarus]

Oh nvm it only held together a portion of the Moros prison ship darn. Well at least the piercing stuff is still there.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Herakles is also explicitly going at full speed in the span of 7 seconds

Speed = 1 AU per Cycle/Day
Time = 7 seconds

Adjusted Speed

1 AU = 149,597,871 Kilometers / Day

149,597,871 Kilometers / 24 Hours =

6,233,244.63 Kilometers / Hour

6,233,244.63 Kilometers / 60 Minutes =

103,887.411 Kilometers / Minute

103,887.411 Kilometers / 60 Seconds =

1,731.45685 Kilometers / Second

1,731,456.85 Meters / Second

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Now do you have the weight of the Herakles?

 

[Not_Icarus]

I'm waiting for a calc pal of mine to see if he's interested on looking at the battlecruiser model and getting a mass value for it so this is either gonna take us fairly quick or pretty long unfortunately

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Btw, your friend, Diamond Drone, is correct in his assertion and calc that Behemoths are larger than Minotaurs

Cinematic Models of a Behemoth and Minotaur

Flying besides each other

Minotaur in front, Behemoth in the back

Behemoth facing Minotaurs

Minotaur in the back, Behemoth in the front

 

[Not_Icarus]

I got a range calc from a friend of mine some time ago for the range of the space battles in SC during HotS and LotV. We got some numbers on them now as thousands of kilometers

"AU / (24 hours * 60 minutes) = 103888.888889km / minute
103888.888889km/m * 2 minutes = 207777.777778km
149392222.222KM interception range or 0.9986253248322471AU

The lower the BC speed, the closer to 1 AU combat ranges you get ofc. This is considered long range and keep in mind this is the Brood War, they didn't have rapid fire jumping like WoL and onwards which is why the combat ranges closed the distance more and more"

Also Blizzard is also inconsistent with those as they often just overlap the 2 designs for each other.

Like I said before. It's better if we just go with the stated SC2 manual values right now. It'd be awkward for the minotaur to be much smaller than the sc2 carrier when they're portrayed to be even to each other in scale.

Minotaurs are the most common and default bcs of the terrans in the sector

 

[Qawsedf234]

Also is it really that unusable? The leviathan tentacles are still its main method of physical attack and it pierced through a heavily massive armored transport ship in the cutscene video link (the most notorious one too)

You need to find out how durable the transport is, otherwise it becomes circular scaling.

 

[Not_Icarus]

Darn

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Also Blizzard is also inconsistent with those as they often just overlap the 2 designs for each other.

Maybe for other medias such as books, and comics but Cinematics are consistent since they're basically reusing the same Models.

Like I said before. It's better if we just go with the stated SC2 manual values right now.

And 1 KM is not concrete, it's always accompanied by "approximated" or "around" meaning it's not exact, other people have already Pixel Scaled the Size Chart using the 1 KM Line figure at the bottom of the Mothership, and the size more or less comes short several meters from 1 KM. Hence why Diamond Drone is using 976m.

It'd be awkward for the minotaur to be much smaller than the sc2 carrier when they're portrayed to be even to each other in scale.

Are you basing this on in-game models?

The artist expressed intention that the Battlecruiser in this image is a Behemoth, it even looks like a Behemoth.

Minotaurs are the most common and default bcs of the terrans in the sector

Yeah, but in other forms of Media it's always the Behemoth model being used since it's more iconic.

So it is a Minotaur in name only but Behemoth in dimensions.

Even the decpiction of the Battlecruiser in its Manual Entry is that of a Minotaur, whereas the Size Chart depicts a Behemoth.

 

[Not_Icarus]

They're inconsistent in the game with the cutscenes too. 90% of the time the Hyperion model is used to show off the battlecruisers because it looks way more hd like in the Char cutscenes, HotS escape and LotV cutscenes. The Bucephalus was accompanied by battlecruisers using the hyperion model too.

There's also like no statement anywhere for the 500 meter minotaurs and was something taken from the Buchephalus' size which stays a conundrum to this day as it is portrayed even in scale to the Hyperion in most depictions. Carriers have no stated size decrease either and both sc1 and sc2 versions are shown to be 1 kilometer long as shown and implied by the manual. And if you wanna take the completely exact scales like 976 meters more then that's fine. I simply use the 1 kilometer statement more since it's easier to say and probably calculate for people.

And yes the artist did express the desire to make multiple different battlecruiser types for the manual but blizzard demanded it to be only 1 so here we are.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

"AU / (24 hours * 60 minutes) = 103888.888889km / minute
103888.888889km/m * 2 minutes = 207777.777778km
149392222.222KM interception range or 0.9986253248322471AU

Isn't this referring to Wraith Launching Range, and not the Battlecruiser's Weapons Range?

 

[Not_Icarus]

I suppose so. Likely only a few thousand kilometers for the weapon systems themselves based off the ingame space fight cutscenes. At the very least they can intercept pretty quickly at those fighter launching ranges.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Carriers have no stated size decrease either and both sc1 and sc2 versions are shown to be 1 kilometer long as shown and implied by the manual.

The people in charge of the SC wiki have their own Pixel Scaling of the Size Chart

SC2 Carrier Length Approx. 1,370 meters

Size Chart Behemoth Battlecruisers are "close" not exactly 1 KM in length

Mothership = 3 Kilometers > SC2 Carrier = +/- 1.37 KM > Behemoth Class = ~1 KM > Minotaur Class

The artist of the Size Chart also expressed that they would have wanted the Minotaur to have the 550 m length and the Behemoth "around" 1 KM

Even the artist themselves acknowledge that Minotaurs should be smaller than Behemoths.

So which Artist do we pick?

The one involved in the Size Chart of the Manual? Who organized and catalogued most if not all units, vehicles, spacecraft/creature from the franchise?

Or the other artists, whose art and illustrations differ one another since they each illustrated different comics, stories, novels, etc.?

 

[Not_Icarus]

The official chart they used in the lore server is the same as the manual. Leviathan gets a pass in being 11 kilometers instead of 6.7 kilometers because it's genuinely 11 kilometers when pixel scaled and honestly I don't remember how that got rated as 6.7 in the sc wiki in the first place before we asked the manual artist more about it and did say the manual leviathan is indeed 11 kilometers tbh lol.

They also made like an idealized chart including the SC1 and SC2 carriers and battlecruisers (minotaur is smaller than the behemoth there) of what they ideally wish the sizes of them would be. But we can't use that since it never made it to canon.

Honestly as much as it'd be cool to use Robear's idealized size chart that includes that used his intended vision of smaller minotaur and larger behemoth. I think we're better off using the official scale Blizzard demanded from him. Basically the 1 kilometer minotaurs.

 

[Not_Icarus]

Robear also says that stuff like the smaller minotaurs are outdated and unapproved by blizzard.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

I think we're better off using the official scale Blizzard demanded from him. Basically the 1 kilometer minotaurs.

Blizzard didn't say that Minotaurs were 1 KM in length though? They told him to make only one illustration of a Battlecruiser in the Size Chart and not to name its Class, and just call it Battlecruiser.

Hence, their differing appearances in the Field Manual.

Wings of Liberty, and the Bucephalus' Dimensions were released in 2010

The StarCraft II Creative Development Q&A about the Bucephalus' Dimensions was in 2013

The StarCraft Field Manual and Size Chart was released on 2015

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Robear also says that stuff like the smaller minotaurs are outdated and unapproved by blizzard.

We can clearly see that the Battlecruiser in the Size Chart is a Behemoth. Why are you so adamant about it being a Minotaur?

 

[Not_Icarus]

Because minotaurs and behemoths are inconsistent to each other. Plus the Battlecruiser shown in the Battlecruiser page was closer to looks to the in-game model of the SC2 battlecruisers. It even says behemoth reactor (minotaur thing) instead of collosus reactor (behemoth thing). Why would blizzard demand Robear to show off the minotaur in the description page but insist that the one shown in the size chart is a behemoth? The focus of the art book are SC2 units with even some legacy units like the dragoon looking more like their SC2 counterparts. That'd be very weird considering it'd be the only unit that does that even when the Carrier also has multiple variants and more noticeable differences from each other.

Dragoons in SC2 are actually different and older models lorewise fun fact. They predate khala integration.

 

[Not_Icarus]

Also that one battlecruiser in LotV that shot missiles at the Spear of Adun in LotV. That has more precedence to be a minotaur than a behemoth given that behemoths aren't known to use conventional rockets outside of nukes.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Also that one battlecruiser in LotV that shot missiles at the Spear of Adun in LotV. That has more precedence to be a minotaur than a behemoth given that behemoths aren't known to use conventional rockets outside of nukes.

You do realize that was the Hyperion right?

And those missiles were fired from special missile turret attachments.

They're attached to the wings, and extend backwards, ending beside the engine blocks.

 

[Not_Icarus]

That was the Hyperion? Thought it was just a random Battlecruiser given Raynor and Matt was surface side fighting the Moebius hybrids and troops down below. If that really was the Hyperion then I can believe it has rockets as the Hyperion is a heavily modified ship over the course of the years.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

That was the Hyperion? Thought it was just a random Battlecruiser given Raynor and Matt was surface side fighting the Moebius hybrids and troops down below.

No, Raynor was onboard taking command, it was only after Sky Shield that he went ground side.

If that really was the Hyperion then I can believe it has rockets as the Hyperion is a heavily modified ship over the course of the years.

Again no, it was a temporary thing, they were removed sometime during battle, as when Raynor and Artanis were seen discussing what to do, they were no longer attached to the Hyperion.

 

[Not_Icarus]

Could still be just a random battlecruiser in the aftermath cutscene when we took back the keystone tbh. Considering how overly used the Hyperion model is. But yeah I can buy Raynor being in space during the Sky Shield Crisis.

On the side note it's killing me seeing Flashpoint say that the Bucephalus was (pre-hots gorgons) the largest domion ship ever built when they gave it a size of 550 meters long lol

 

[Not_Icarus]

And if those rockets were truly from the Hyperion. I don't see a reason for them to just remove it from the ship tbh. Sounds counterintuitive.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Could still be just a random battlecruiser in the aftermath tbh. Considering how overly used the Hyperion model is.

No, it was the only Behemoth in Korhal. The majority of the ships around the planet were Minotaurs from the Dominion and Mobi-Corp.

The only time we see other Behemoths are in the Revanscar mission (Mobi-Corp Ships) and the Into the Void Mission (Dominion leftovers)

But yeah I can buy Raynor being in space during the Sky Shield Crisis.

Why would Raynor mention Bulkheads if he weren't in Space?

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

And if those rockets were truly from the Hyperion. I don't see a reason for them to just remove it from the ship tbh. Sounds counterintuitive.

They're massive external missile turrets that obstruct the firing angle of the far smaller laser batteries.

And from their position, how they look, and how they function, they don't seem to be something that can be reloaded from within the Hyperion

 

[Not_Icarus]

I'm gonna be honest, I didn't know what the word bulkhead meant lol. I thought he meant something like reinforce bases areas more.

And that is a fair point. The models used in Korhal were mainly the in-game battlecruiser models. Although this doesn't really solve everything given how inconsistent the series is with the model usages.

Strange that it can't reload the rockets when the minotaurs can but oh well if that really is the case.

Personally I believe the battlecruisers used by mobius in like revanscar and stuff were minotaurs given how advance they are to the point of making hybrids and can hijack Protoss tech like pylons for themselves. They even made an emp strong enough to stun the spear of adun a fair bit. Didn't completely shut it off though given the shields and many of its systems were still online.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

And that is a fair point. The models used in Korhal were mainly the in-game battlecruiser models. Although this doesn't really solve everything given how inconsistent the series is with the model usages.

Disregard previous given sizes or class of the Bucephalus since Blizzard doesn't seem to care.

Just use what we have from Nova Covert Ops and the Manual when it comes to size.

Gorgon > Behemoth Battlecruiser (1 KMish) > Spec Ops Battlecruiser/Minotaur Battlecruiser

Since in Nova Covert Ops we see all three classes together.

Strange that it can't reload the rockets when the minotaurs can but oh well if that really is the case.

Minotaur's are Missile Pods, if they used the Old Model it would have made more sense.

Since in the old Minotaur Model, Missile Pods were embedded in the Model's wings and neck showing where the would missiles come from, within the ship.

And the missiles that Minotaurs have were designed for Anti-Fighter role.

The ones that the Hyperion have are externally mounted, underneath the wings, extending to the back towards the engine.

The missiles might have been powerful since they fired those inste of using the Yamato Cannon.

 

[DaReaperMan]

You do realize that was the Hyperion right?

And those missiles were fired from special missile turret attachments.

They're attached to the wings, and extend backwards, ending beside the engine blocks.

Tal'darim are red and Raynor knows damn well what a Daelamm vessel looks like lol

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Tal'darim are red and Raynor knows damn well what a Daelamm vessel looks like lol

It's an ancient big ass ship that came out of nowhere, in an active battle zone. A ship that hasn't seen the light of day since the height of the Protoss empire.

How would he be familiar with it?

 

[DaReaperMan]

It's an ancient big ass ship that came out of nowhere, in an active battle zone. A ship that hasn't seen the light of day since the height of the Protoss empire.

How would he be familiar with it?

He'd be pretty familiar with the Daelamm color scheme Hurricane, The Golden Armada hasn't started smoking worlds yet at this point(I dont think)