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StarCraft Major Revision Thread Attempt 2

Icarus says that BC was a Minotaur Class despite Minotaurs being present in the scene.

The reason why I claim it's the Hyperion is because in all of the scenes it's the only Behemoth present, and acknowledged.

Though it doesn't have the Missile Turrets when it becomes an interactable object in the background of the Spear of Adun Mission Hub.

The background in the mission selection hub only shows the Hyperion with Minotaurs after the Cinematic.

All we know is that the Behemoth that fired missiles wasn't attacked by the Spear nor did it fire anything else after the Spear did an Evasive Warp, appearing behind it and some Minotaurs, and was contacted by Raynor
 
My biggest gripes with accepting 500 meter minotaurs really is how oddly specific it is tbh. Because why would Blizzard make the Terran standard capital ship be twice as small as the Protoss capital ship when redesigning both for SC2. That'd be aesthetically weird to look at. Carriers certainly never got smaller so why should battlecruisers. They're often portrayed as comparable to each other as shown in media like Shadow Wars. SC1 standard carriers and battlecruisers are on par in sizes and lorewise the SC2 carriers only got a sleeker updated design. Both of them are mainly evolution in tech rather than size differences. The manual shows us minotaur specs when showing off a battlecruiser design and their weapon/tech specs as I've said before. It'd be reasonable to assume that a minotaur was the one used in size chart even with blizzard's insistence of only showing off 1 battlecruiser for the scales even when they mentioned other classes in the battlecruiser description page. Robear was pretty much forced to make minotaur and behemoth sizes even in the field manual. I don't really trust the in-game model size differences for battlecruisers given how much they vary. WoL in-game Hyperion model looked much closer to a minotaur's design back then. Plus every battlecruiser looked the same in the Char arc.
 
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Also for the Hyperion, minotaurs, moirai and gorgon class battlecruisers all seen together at missions like Endgame, you can easily argue like hero size scaling in there. The Hyperion was much larger and comparable to Gorgons more for better visual fidelity. It's what Blizzard does all the time for special combat story units.

The Blizzard approved Dark House SC2 toys sells the big air units of each faction. Zerg got Brood Lord, Protoss received the SC2 Carrier and Terran was given the Hyperion model for their Minotaur Battlecruiser. The toys are also accurate to the field manual as the battlecruiser is 15 inches (976 meters when pixel scaled for lore size) long and the carrier is 18 inches (1.4 kilometers when pixel scaled for lore size). Carriers are only technically noticeably longer because of their tail fins giving them extra length. Carriers are also smaller than Battlecruisers too ingame according to this video. Author of this video though takes on the side of the dark horse battlecruiser being a behemoth though.



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So yeah honestly. I still believe in minotaurs and behemoths being the same size due to the lack of good canon statements or evidence saying otherwise imo. The only scale ingame that's the most likely reasonable and safe to believe to me imo are the Gorgons and Motherships being similar in length together due to both being the pinnacle of each factions' capital ships. Gorgons though are much longer than Motherships in Dark Skies and the Hyperion looks larger than Gorgons and almost as long in them in Dark Skies.

Remembered an interesting discussion I had in the sc wiki lore server before that also talks about this topic too. (Robert is Xiaorobear)

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Basically we'll never likely get an official answer and we have to choose a size we best see fit. I choose the 1 kilometer statement (I also still believe in the manual battlecruiser size being the minotaur because if blizzard made the protoss never downsize then the terrans likely didn't either) because we eliminate the dumb Bucephalus 500 meter size scaling. Ingame size scaling of battlecruisers to me isn't reliable because there's too many different models and sizes of the hyperion and battlecruisers as they morph size during missions sometimes.
 
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My biggest gripes with accepting 500 meter minotaurs really is how oddly specific it is tbh.

Why are you so hyper fixated on that number? No ever said to use that number in Pixel Scaling or Calcs.

Because why would Blizzard make the Terran standard capital ship be twice as small as the Protoss capital ship when redesigning both for SC2. That'd be aesthetically weird to look at. Carriers certainly never got smaller so why should battlecruisers.

Explain then why in the main form of Media they consistently portray one Class as smaller than the other?

They're often portrayed as comparable to each other as shown in media like Shadow Wars.

What class of Battlecruiser does the one in Shadow Wars look like?

SC1 standard carriers and battlecruisers are on par in sizes and lorewise the SC2 carriers only got a sleeker updated design. Both of them are mainly evolution in tech rather than size differences.

What class of Battlecruiser was there in that SC1 cinematic?

The manual shows us minotaur specs when showing off a battlecruiser design and their weapon/tech specs as I've said before. It'd be reasonable to assume that a minotaur was the one used in size chart even with blizzard's insistence of only showing off 1 battlecruiser for the scales even when they mentioned other classes in the battlecruiser description page.

Blizzard Animators know the difference between the Minotaur and Behemoth models sizes since they are the ones who make the Cinematics, Cutscenes, etc.

Robear was pretty much forced to make minotaur and behemoth sizes even in the field manual.

Nowhere is that said though, he just wasn't allowed to make multiple illustrations nor allowed to name what class they were.

WoL in-game Hyperion model looked much closer to a minotaur's design back then.

Yeah because they didn't have an In-game Models for it yet, wasn't this common information.

Plus every battlecruiser looked the same in the Char arc.

Except they showed two models of Battlecruisers, as I have repeatedly said.
 
The Blizzard approved Dark House SC2 toys sells the big air units of each faction. Zerg got Brood Lord, Protoss received the SC2 Carrier and Terran was given the Hyperion model for their Minotaur Battlecruiser.

It never said it was a Minotaur Class though?

It's called a Terran Battlecruiser and obviously is a Behemoth Class no matter how you say it isn't.

Author of this video though takes on the side of the dark horse battlecruiser being a behemoth though

I wonder why? Is is because it visually resembles a Behemoth Class Battlecruiser?
 
So yeah honestly. I still believe in minotaurs and behemoths being the same size due to the lack of good canon statements or evidence saying otherwise imo.

So ignore the visuals of the main source of Media? That's what you wanna do.

Basically we'll never likely get an official answer and we have to choose a size we best see fit. I choose the 1 kilometer statement (I also still believe in the manual battlecruiser size being the minotaur because if blizzard made the protoss never downsize then the terrans likely didn't either) because we eliminate the dumb Bucephalus 500 meter size scaling. Ingame size scaling of battlecruisers to me isn't reliable because there's too many different models and sizes of the hyperion and battlecruisers as they morph size during missions sometimes.

Then why make a Baneling Calc or a Leviathan Calc using in-game Models?

When there are Cinematics for them.
 
And another thing, the only Battlecruiser Classes ever stated to have an Air Wing are Behemoths and Gorgons.

Making it even more obvious that the Battlecruiser in Shadow Wars is a Behemoth Class.
 
I use 500 and 550 meters number interchangeably because the latter came from an official source that's been used a lot by many people in the fandom and it gets contradicted a lot by later expansions. The former is easier say and type. I also don't like Diamonddron scaling the regular minotaur battlecruiser to the hyperion with their ingame models because they're not reliable enough.

Shadows War is the many of such cases of Blizzard lazily using the Hyperion model and never giving us proper distinctions for which is which. Literally the closest we get for "cinematic" minotaurs are the ingame models but upscaled to be mostly bigger and placed on cutscenes/setpieces like the lotv Korhal arc. You can't hit me with that argument when many other cutscenes and media does the same like the WoL Char assault. The animators aren;t perfect, they still used a the normal ingame model for the Hyperion when it saved us in Mar Sara and used the same Hyperion model for the battlecruisers and Bucephalus like I've said many times before.

Robear literally said his 500 meter minotaur preference is headcanon.

At best there was the ingame model wreckage of the sc2 regular minotaur battlecruiser. I checked and it was all the hyperion models in the cinematics outside of the instances like Warfield crashing down as the sc2 regular minotaur battlecruiser.

It doesn't say it directly but it is a good chance it is. I don't get why you assume every BC using the Hyperion model is a behemoth class when Blizzard is known to have a shoddy and terrible history with managing stuff like battlecruiser scale and models for SC2.

And because it looks like the Hyperion (which is the face of the behemoth class) and it's the common assumption. I don't find it correct as I've said with my many reasons above.

Tbf you're arguing for the legitimacy of the 650 meter bc from the calc based off the capital ship sizes ingame which are rarely ever accurate when comparing ships together. Stuff like Diamonddrone rock calc is more believable because the Marauder is stated to be a building buster and we regularly smash down buildings and debris ingame of varying sizes. Oversized rocks aren't too bad. It's not based on sizing out battlecruisers which are far less believable and consistent.

Baneling calc used the cinematic marine model so it's more believable. Plus even a drop from a Baneling's acid when a researcher was studying them almost kiled them even while wearing a marine suit (it also blew out multiple walls at the same time). 8 is the maximum number in game and assuming they all jammed together point blank to Baneling. It's pretty much the only method there was to finding it via ingame. I can believe it to be less outlandish than say battlecruiser size scaling. The Leviathan calc was honestly just me continueing AssaultWaffle's Leviathan calc and I wanted to fix it. I saw it to be 6.7 kilomters on the wiki and then after we got confirmation from Robear that it was actually 11 kilometers I had it changed it again. The leviathan calc is going away anyways as we can't use its AP anymore as Said by Qasw.

That's a good point actually as I can't find an airwing statement for the minotaur. Though honestly they probably do as minotaurs are meant to be an upgrade in virtually every way against behemoths and storage for both air and ground units inside SC1 and SC2 battlecruisers era are meant to be a given. They're kilometer long capital ships that serves many roles such as base of operations, gunships and transportation.
 
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So how long are you scaling minotaurs then in your vision them

And you still can't deny the sc1 and sc2 carrier and battlecruiser comparisons as most cases of ingame, cutscenes and cinematics are pretty much always even and often end up using the Hyperion model. They're still on par with each other. It makes little sense for those hyperion models to be mostly made up of old behemoths when the minotaurs are the go to battlecruisers for sc2.

Behemoths while still serviceable are all slowly getting phased out like the wraiths. Both are still used but the dominion have been focusing their efforts on replacing these old models more and more by the years.
 
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So how long are you scaling minotaurs then in your vision them

Smaller than Behemoths as that how they are portrayed.

Literally the closest we get for "cinematic" minotaurs are the ingame models but upscaled to be mostly bigger and placed on cutscenes/setpieces like the lotv Korhal arc. You can't hit me with that argument when many other cutscenes and media does the same like the WoL Char assault.

Media Blitz Cinematic, shows a Minotaur being smaller than a Behemoth

The Assault on Char Cinematic, shows a Minotaur being smaller than a Behemoth

Sky Shield Cinematic & Background, shows multiple Minotaurs being smaller than a Behemoth

The animators aren;t perfect, they still used a the normal ingame model for the Hyperion when it saved us in Mar Sara and used the same Hyperion model for the battlecruisers and Bucephalus like I've said many times before.

As I said, they didn't have an In-game Model for the Hyperion nor did they have a Cinematic Models for a Gorgon.

They literally had only a few months to redesign and overhaul the game. The StarCraft 2 Beta Videos were released a few months before the official release of the game hence the lacking models.

But despite having 5 to 6 years to make a Cinematic Model for the Bucephalus they kept the Model and Size from WoL despite there being an In-game Model for a Gorgon since HotS.

Either they didn't bother to make one, the Hyperion Model is more popular and iconic, or they just retconned the Bucephalus' Class entirely.

That's a good point actually as I can't find an airwing statement for the minotaur. Though honestly they probably do as minotaurs are meant to be an upgrade in virtually every way against behemoths and storage for both air and ground units inside SC1 and SC2 era are meant to be a given. They're kilometer long capital ships that serves many roles such as base of operations, gunships and transportation.

That's an assumption. The only thing said about Minotaurs are them having more Tactical Systems, and having a better Reactors than a Behemoth.

Minotaur are Tactical Ships whereas Behemoths are Battleship/Carrier Hybrids meant to carry spacecraft, troops, and vehicles, and to slug it out against other ships.

8 is the maximum number in game and assuming they all jammed together point blank to Baneling. It's pretty much the only method there was to finding it via ingame.

So your using an In-game Model for the acid splatter which has a larger AoE instead of using the one from the Cinematic?
 
The explosion from a drop of the Baneling's acid was bigger as it blew up an entire room and sent the marine suited person flying funny enough. So the in-game explosion is a safe bet. Despite the LotV trailer Baneling having a pretty small blast.

You're still not giving me a good approximation like the SC2 Carrier man. That's literally all we need.

All battlecruisers are classified as capital ships. All capital ships carry troops and vehicles otherwise what's the point. It'd be a serious downgrade too if the minotaurs can't carry armies like behemoths because the behemoths are literally getting phased out. I don't see them relying on fleets of Hercules ships tbh. Minotaurs are better off labeled as gunships if they can't carry troops and vehicles. There were gunship class ships before in the lore before wraiths and other fighters took their place. The behemoth and minotaur can both do the same things at varying levels of success. The minotaur edges out in weaponry as they're more moddable and carry newer weapons.

It's also not unheard off to strip away battlecruiser parts and turn them into glorified transport/cargo ships that only needs a skeleton crew to be operated
 
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And you still can't deny the sc1 and sc2 carrier and battlecruiser comparisons as most cases of ingame, cutscenes and cinematics are pretty much always even and often end up using the Hyperion model.

In SC1 there are one in-game model for a Carrier and a Battlecruiser, and one cinematic model for a Carrier and a Battlecruiser

In SC2 there is one in-game model for a Carrier with different skins, one in-game model for a Minotaur with different skins, and one in-game model for the Hyperion

There is one Cinematic model for a Carrier but with two skins, and two Cinematic Models for Battlecruisers

They're still on par with each other. It makes little sense for those hyperion models to be mostly made up of old behemoths when the minotaurs are the go to battlecruisers for sc2. Behemoths while still serviceable are all slowly getting phased out like the wraiths. Both are still used but the dominion have been focusing their efforts on replacing these old models more and more by the years.

Behemoths are said have been given periodic upgrades.

And use the In-game Battlecruiser skin information, Behemoths have been upgraded a least twice.
 
They've been upgraded yes but not as common and upgraded as the minotaurs. The Tyrador or Umojan behemoths don't really represent the Dominion behemoths as they're smaller in numbers and have likely different upgrades.
 
You're still not giving me a good approximation like the SC2 Carrier man. That's literally all we need.
Diamond Drone's size is close to what I envisio

All battlecruisers are classified as capital ships. All capital ships carry troops and vehicles otherwise what's the point.


Not all ships classified as a Capital Ship carry troops, vehicles, and spacecraft.

It'd be a serious downgrade too if the minotaurs can't carry armies like behemoths because the behemoths are literally getting phased out.

It's called specialization, Minotaurs are specialized for direct combat by its lonesome.

Behemoths are stated to have bad Anti-Fighter capabilities hence why they have air wings. Behemoths typically launch fighters then close in.

Behemoths on can carry troops, vehicles, spacecraft, and nukes.

Troops and Vehicles for ground assaults.

Spacecraft for fighter defense and attack. runs.

Nukes for Anti-Ship or Orbital Bombardment

Minotaurs are better off labeled as gunships if they can't carry troops and vehicles. There were gunship class ships before in the lore before wraiths and other fighters took their place. The behemoth and minotaur can both do the same things at varying levels of success. The minotaur edges out in weaponry as they're more moddable and carry newer weapons.

You do realize that the term Battlecruiser is a real world term?


Minotaurs fit that description because of their tactical systems.

Laser Batteries for Direct Fire and Anti-Fighter Fire.

Missile Pods for large AoE Anti-Fighter weapon.

Yamato Cannon for a heavy Anti-Ship or structure weapon.

Shields to withstand assault.

Tactical Warp to reposition or retreat.
 
I meant more in the game context of capital ships tbf. I probably should have specified that. Like I said it's not unheard off to strip away parts from battlecruisers to make them as glorified cargo/transport ships.

I don't trust the With Friends Like These battlecruiser sizes personally. The Hyperion changes sizes too much.

There's not really much specialization for Battlecruisers in the series outside of the Gorgons as all the Battlecruisers are treated as general purpose capital ships. Minotaurs isn't even the latest normal battlecruiser in the series now with the introduction of the Moirai class battlecruisers.

Plus Minotaurs don't travel completely alone as they're the bulk of the Dominion fleet. They're followed by other ships and carry troops and other vehicles themselves. How else would the Dominion flex its muscles if Minotaurs lost that feature from the Behemoths.
 
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Countless battlecruisers died from all the Terran factions during SC1 and they mostly got replaced by the minotaurs by the time of SC2. Plus during heart of the swarm the Dominion fleet was recalled to Korhal. All battlecruisers were ordered to drop what they were doing and head immediately back to Korhal to stop Kerrigan. One of the common thing they did was drop off all the civilians and other things they were carrying to nearby planets.

It absolutely makes sense that the battlecruiser in Shadow Wars minotaur or behemoth should be able to carry troops and other cargo.
 
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Also, good news. My friend says he'll get me the 1 kilomter battlecruiser mass results probably some time today.
 
Minotaurs isn't even the latest normal battlecruiser in the series now with the introduction of the Moirai class battlecruisers.

The Moirai Class is meant for the Special Forces meaning that there is not a lot of them.

Plus Minotaurs don't travel completely alone as they're the bulk of the Dominion fleet. They're followed by other ships and carry troops and other vehicles themselves. How else would the Dominion flex its muscles if Minotaurs lost that feature from the Behemoths.

Battlecruisers do travel alone when they're meant for patrolling or scouting.

They only show up in large numbers when they're assaulting something or defending something.
 
The solo patrolling and scouting part is accurate.

Moirai is still pretty new so definitely not the standard and common in current canon. It's likely either that or a new battlecruiser class that would be the successor to the minotaurs.

And yeah like I said all battlecruisers including the minotaurs do carry troops, cargo and other vehicles as shown in Shadow Wars, Broken Wide, Ghost Spectres and the finale of HotS.
 
Countless battlecruisers died from all the Terran factions during SC1 and they mostly got replaced by the minotaurs by the time of SC2.

There were more Behemoths than Minotaurs in WoL, HotS, and Into the Void Cinematics

Minotaurs only became prominent in LotV after WoL and HotS

Plus during heart of the swarm the Dominion fleet was recalled to Korhal. All battlecruisers were ordered to drop what they were doing and head immediately back to Korhal to stop Kerrigan. One of the common thing they did was drop off all the civilians and other things they were carrying to nearby planets.

They don't mention what Class
 
They used the Hyperion model because it looks cooler. Minotaurs went into service as early as 2502.

Do you really need a mention for that with the knowledge of minotaurs being the go to battlecruisers of SC2. And if you really wanted some more specifics, Ghost Spectres, Shadow Wars, Broken Wide and HotS finale all had that situation happen where they can carry or drop cargo with the minotaurs that even the sc wiki sources out.
 
They used the Hyperion model because it looks cooler. Minotaurs went into service as early as 2502. Do you really need a mention for that with the knowledge of minotaurs being the go to battlecruisers of SC2.

When there are two Battlecruiser models for their Cinematics, then yes.

You can't use the excuse "they just use the same model for all the classes" when they literally have another model for another class of ship.

You can't say,

This ship looks like a Behemoth and is a Behemoth

That ship looks like a Behemoth but is actually a Minotaur

While this ship that looks like a Minotaur and is a Minotaur

Why did Blizzard approve of two models for the Cinematics if they just reused the same model for all classes

And if you really wanted some more specifics, Ghost Spectres, Broken Wide and HotS finale all had minotaurs that even the sc wiki sources out.

Then can you provide the scans then?
 
Also I have a pretty good theory for why they used the regular ingame battlecruiser wreckage model in this scene.

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There's literally no solid wreckage model for the hyperion models.
 
November 10, 2015 ~ Official Release of Legacy of the Void

November 17, 2015 ~ Official Release of the Field Manual

Both had near releasing dates so it's not hard to assume they had influenced one another in their respective projects during their production.

Blizzard approved both the Size Chart and the Cinematic Models
 
Broken Wide and Ghost Spectres Battlecruiser Storages

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For the Korhal scene in WoL I just chalk it up to overused Hyperion model syndrome. It's the most rampant during WoL to HotS era of SC2.

For the LotV Korhal scene, I don't actually have a solid answer for that tbh. To me it's Blizzard's attempt of finally showing the 2 battlecruiser classes in the same scene together for once to the best of their abilities at that time. Robear still wishes that his vision for smaller minotaurs was solidly canon. I prefer the straightforward approach of the size chart battlecruiser being the same as the battlecruiser used in the description page which clearly references minotaur based tech. It'd be more confusing for casual readers who bought the book and then realized the minotaur shown isn't actually the size shown in the size chart. It's honestly bad for the consumer and directness of the manual if it wasn't the minotaur.

I don't believe it's unreasonable to be skeptical of behemoths and minotaurs given how inconsistent they are in media of not just the games, but also the eu like comics and novels. Like for example during the retellings of the glassing of Mar Sara and Chau Sara in the comics. They used the SC2 carrier design when it didn't exist yet instead of using the 1st one. And stuff like the Thor and Viking having a complicated mess of when exactly they came into existence. So sorry if I come off as too suspicious.
 
Carriers and Battlecruisers still have that design aesthetic rivalry and stuff going on for them too. So it's most reasonable to assume similar sizes
 
Also here's some panels from Frontline's Why We Fight displays that. The year is 2502, notice how SC2 units are used here which means the battlecruisers are minotaur class despite looking like behemoths. There's some SC1 stuff like the SC1 Queens and Wraiths still being here. But overall, the focus are SC2 era unit designs.

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Broken Wide and Ghost Spectres Battlecruiser Storages

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So a Minotaur has a Cargo Storage and Passenger/Troop Compartment and had to land on a planet's starport to offload them.

The passengers were 60 Marines and a few Medics originally being transferred to an outpost with their supplies before being offloaded to the nearest inhabitable planet because the cruiser got recalled to Korhal.

No of mention vehicles and spacecraft.

Just supplies and people.
 
You're quite picky about the specifics of minotaur cargo capabilities when they're literally the successor of the behemoth.

Also here's some more, the process wasn't shown but the battlecruisers dropped off all these dropships to this planet (can't warp jump) and buildings like that command center over there on the top middle portion (it got infested though).

923099d5999fdfd276e0c3349c8f6e0e.jpg
 
You're quite picky about the specifics of minotaur cargo capabilities when they're literally the successor of the behemoth.

So just because it's a successor we just assume it has all it's capabilities without any mention at all?

Isn't this what you said earlier:
So sorry if I come off as too suspicious.

Am I not allowed the same courtesy?

Also here's some more, the process wasn't shown but the battlecruisers dropped off all these dropships to this planet (can't warp jump) and buildings like that command center over there on the top middle portion.

923099d5999fdfd276e0c3349c8f6e0e.jpg

How can we be sure that they're Minotaurs huh? Because of the year? What if those are just SC2 iterations of Behemoths huh?

You said it yourself the comic is using mostly SC2 iterations of units with some SC1 units.
 
You're allowed. My mind's just exhausted from the whole Battlecruiser sizes debates lol

I get and see enough of them for years on sites like reddit, the lore discord and etc. it's honestly one of my most disliked topics given that even the lore wiki folks don't have a solid consensus about it.

Because the SC2 Carrier over there is a nice indicator? It's thematically fitting considering the theme of the story was about why they fight and also everyone was showing off their new improved gear, techniques, units and etc. The siege tank over there is a bit of a mess but is ultimately an SC2 siege tank given how the legs transform and move diagonally. There's also SC1 goliaths over there as something solidly SC1 if you're looking for something specifically SC1 that returns to SC2 with a new design.
 
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Why We Fight was made 2 years before the release of 2 but has a solid grasp on the art style of 2. Its biggest noteworthy feature is the amount of varied artists and writers drawing and writing for the series. Some of them like chapter 1 as seen above is 2 but with a slight touch of SC1's art style.
 
So you position is,

They look like Behemoths, similar to past illustrations

They act like Behemoths, similar to the novel descriptions

But they are Minotaurs because the year is 2502, it features a majority of new things from StarCraft II.
 
I still believe the stuff like Shadow Wars battlecruiser being a minotaur that can carry troops, vehicles and buildings like the Hyperion. So was the majority of the fleet in the Char arc which includes both the Kerrigan arc and Flashpoint novel. This was Mengsk's entire elite fleet brought into the table as Mengsk had the other half of the fleet on stand by until they secured and deinfested Kerrigan. It's less likely for both Valerian and Arcturus to invade the most dangerous person in the sector with majority old model behemoths even when upgraded.

Valerian even loaned us minotaur class battlecruisers too to extract the final keystone piece from the Taldarim and their dangerous Protoss fleet which had enemies like sc2 carriers, void rays and even a mothership

So yes, I do believe those are indeed minotaurs in why we fight. The whole point was to show how much they're willing to get stronger to fight for victory.
 
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So like, why is it important if one ship is 500 meters or 1,000 meters?
 
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