Super Smash Bros Upgrades

[CloverDragon03]

The thing is that losing stocks and the like isn't considered death. It's just a KO. So I don't really know how much this applies compared to the cutscenes

I mean either way it wouldn't change my point that the Sephiroth trailer shouldn't be used because it literally contradicts its own scaling within that same trailer

 

[ShockingPsychic]

I added Arceus stuff to the OP because I completely forgot he was even there lol

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

The thing is that losing stocks and the like isn't considered death. It's just a KO. So I don't really know how much this applies compared to the cutscenes

I mean either way it wouldn't change my point that the Sephiroth trailer shouldn't be used because it literally contradicts its own scaling within that same trailer

I'm aware of that, but it functions a bit weirdly. We see that Mega Man has his death effect in-game, even though he doesn't actually die. Getting slashed and destroyed by the scythe of a grim reaper has the context of death, but in-game in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate, the victims don't die. I was thinking that maybe Luigi didn't die permanently in the reveal trailer for Simon and Richter. At the end of the trailer, Luigi as a ghost was attempting to go back into his corpse, so maybe he could revive himself by doing that.

I agree with the trailer of Sephiroth being contradictory; I was only referring to the canonicity of trailers, especially ones from before Super Smash Bros. Ultimate released.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I'm aware of that, but it functions a bit weirdly. We see that Mega Man has his death effect in-game, even though he doesn't actually die. Getting slashed and destroyed by the scythe of a grim reaper has the context of death, but in-game in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate, the victims don't die. I was thinking that maybe Luigi didn't die permanently in the reveal trailer for Simon and Richter. At the end of the trailer, Luigi as a ghost was attempting to go back into his corpse, so maybe he could revive himself by doing that.

I agree with the trailer of Sephiroth being contradictory; I was only referring to the canonicity of trailers, especially ones from before Super Smash Bros. Ultimate released.

Well if we're in agreement on the Sephiroth trailer that's all that matters

 

[ShockingPsychic]

For my own thoughts, I think High 6-A is the minimum. There shouldn't be a reason to use Lugia's feat and not Reshiram's, so I think this feat is fairly safe

My own idea is High 6-A, likely 4-B* | 3-A, likely Low 2-C with Spirits

High 6-A is safe as I said before, and scaling to Final Smashes should also be fairly safe. However, since Final Smashes are more power than they can normally output, I think a "likely" is here. Even if it's more than they usually put out, it's survivable by the entire cast, meaning they can probably downscale from their Final Smashes?

I agree with a flat 3-A rating for Galeem's feat as said above, however the Arceus, Dialga, and Palkia Low 2-C feats aren't to be ignored

If I had to clean it up, High 6-A, likely 4-B* | Low 2-C with Spirits

(*or whatever Sephiroth's feat is, since it's disputed)

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

For my own thoughts, I think High 6-A is the minimum. There shouldn't be a reason to use Lugia's feat and not Reshiram's, so I think this feat is fairly safe

My own idea is High 6-A, likely 4-B* | 3-A, likely Low 2-C with Spirits

High 6-A is safe as I said before, and scaling to Final Smashes should also be fairly safe. However, since Final Smashes are more power than they can normally output, I think a "likely" is here. Even if it's more than they usually put out, it's survivable by the entire cast, meaning they can probably downscale from their Final Smashes?

I agree with a flat 3-A rating for Galeem's feat as said above, however the Arceus, Dialga, and Palkia Low 2-C feats aren't to be ignored

If I had to clean it up, High 6-A, likely 4-B* | Low 2-C with Spirits

(*or whatever Sephiroth's feat is, since it's disputed)

That looks good. What do you think about what I wrote that indicate that the Spirits can reach tier 2-C (Low Multiverse level)?

 

[CloverDragon03]

Sephiroth's feat itself isn't exactly disputed, it's the fact that while the Final Smash itself is 4-B, it's been questioned whether or not the cast's durability would scale. The argument is that they didn't actually take the full yield of it, so a separate calc involving surface area and shiz would have to be made for getting their durability (though I disagree with this, as not only do they seem to be directly hit by it, but also a surface area calc would be horrible given how many different characters of different body types there are that take this attack)

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

The fighters should absolutely positively scale to Galeem/Darkhon when amped by Spirits.

Not sure about the base tiers yet but High 7-A is wrong.

 

[CloverDragon03]

My draft would look something like this (based on what I believe to be acceptable). Keep in mind, this is a hypothetical Sephiroth profile:

High 6-A, Low 4-C with Final Smash | 3-A, possibly Low 2-C, higher with Final Smash

Key: Base | Empowered by Spirits

Attack Potency: Multi-Continent level (Can harm characters who can withstand attacks from Reshiram, who can scorch the world with fire), Small Star level+ with Final Smash (His Final Smash is this strong) | Universe level, possibly Universe level+ (Fought and defeated Galeem and Dharkon, who are individually capable of crushing the universe in a short period of time. Can also contend with characters amplified by Spirits of Palkia and Arceus, the former of whom controls all of space and the latter of whom appeared from nothing and created the world and sky), higher with Final Smash (Far stronger than their regular attacks)

For other characters, this would be:

High 6-A, higher with Final Smash | 3-A, possibly Low 2-C, higher with Final Smash

Key: Base | Empowered by Spirits

Attack Potency: Multi-Continent level (Can harm characters who can withstand attacks from Reshiram, who can scorch the world with fire), higher with Final Smash (Far stronger than their normal attacks) | Universe level, possibly Universe level+ (Fought and defeated Galeem and Dharkon, who are individually capable of crushing the universe in a short period of time. Can also contend with characters amplified by Spirits of Palkia and Arceus, the former of whom controls all of space and the latter of whom appeared from nothing and created the world and sky), higher with Final Smash (Far stronger than their regular attacks)

Note: I'm not sure about the 2-C stuff atm. Also, I'd be content with a full-on Low 2-C rating

 

[Arceus0x]

Wasn't 4-B to be changed to 5-A?

 

[CloverDragon03]

Wasn't 4-B to be changed to 5-A?

Not at all, no

 

[ShockingPsychic]

My draft would look something like this (based on what I believe to be acceptable):

4-B, higher with Final Smash | 3-A, possibly Low 2-C, higher with Final Smash

Key: Base | Empowered by Spirits

Attack Potency: Solar System level (Can harm characters who can survive Sephiroth's Final Smash, albeit with significant damage), higher with Final Smash (Comparable to Sephiroth's Final Smash, which is this strong) | Universe level, possibly Universe level+ (Fought and defeated Galeem and Dharkon, who are individually capable of crushing the universe in a short period of time. Can also contend with characters amplified by Spirits of Palkia and Arceus, the former of whom controls all of space and the latter of whom appeared from nothing and created the world and sky), higher with Final Smash (Far stronger than their regular attacks)

Note: I'm not sure about the 2-C stuff atm. Also, I'd be content with a full-on Low 2-C rating

That looks good to be, assuming 4-B is accepted

I would add Dialga to the summary though, since its feat is better than Palkia's

 

[ShockingPsychic]

Wasn't 4-B to be changed to 5-A?

I think 5-A got recalced to 4-B, actually

 

[CloverDragon03]

That looks good to be, assuming 4-B is accepted

I would add Dialga to the summary though, since its feat is better than Palkia's

Time alone doesn't do this, no. That's just Time Manipulation.

There's a difference between time and space-time (the latter of which would be Low 2-C)

 

[Psychomaster35]

Nothing implies that the starry sky has anything to do with Rosalina's physical combat capabilities. The background isn't part of the Grand Star attack, so any fighter being able to survive the attack is irrelevant. There would need to be evidence that the power of Rosalina's non-physical creation ability can apply to her physical power, otherwise, it's just hax.

You can argue that the Smash Ball was the one that gave them the power to create said backgrounds, hax or not. Its Brawl Trophy description does state that it gives them a unique technique only done if they acquire the Smash Ball (As well as the Smash Meter in Ultimate) in which some of these uses are even just for Attack Power that don’t visually change the backgrounds. Even then, the sky was created in an instant before disappearing once the Final Smash was over, showing that the attack was powered by the Smash Ball/Meter which everyone in the game has access to.

Galeem's reach was multiple universes. Masahiro Sakurai described Galeem's influence as affecting multiple worlds, as the justification for why Bayonetta and Palutena couldn't travel to specific other universes to escape Galeem. The source I used is the Nintendo Life article "Sakurai Reveals Why Kirby Was The Only One Who Survived The Smash Ultimate Apocalypse". This is consistent with what we can see during World of Light, since a wide variety of stages can be the settings in Spirit Battles, and the array isn't limited to a single universe. As an example, some stages take place on Earth, while some clouds in Magicant are also a stage, which takes place in a separate universe than the one that Earth is in.

You can also argue that the reach was on a 2-A scale considering how Palutena’s Guidance on Young Link indicates that the Smash multiverse is infinite.

 

[CloverDragon03]

You can also argue that the reach was on a 2-A scale considering how Palutena’s Guidance on Young Link indicates that the Smash multiverse is infinite.

Yo fr???

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

You can argue that the Smash Ball was the one that gave them the power to create said backgrounds, hax or not. Its Brawl Trophy description does state that it gives them a unique technique only done if they acquire the Smash Ball (As well as the Smash Meter in Ultimate) in which some of these uses are even just for Attack Power that don’t visually change the backgrounds. Even then, the sky was created in an instant before disappearing once the Final Smash was over, showing that the attack was powered by the Smash Ball/Meter which everyone in the game has access to.

This could be an acceptable argument, but there are some inconsistencies that need to be cleared up if you're correct.

• Some characters during Super Smash Bros. Ultimate obliterate targets that have received a certain amount of damage upon getting hit by the final hit of their Final Smash, as part of a context specific to certain characters, such as Zelda banishing an opponent using Triforce of Wisdom, while most characters can only launch targets using their Final Smash. This obliteration one-shot potential is absent in the base forms of all the characters, despite being character-specific during the Final Smashes.
• Negative Zone, the Final Smash that Luigi had during Super Smash Bros. Brawl, wasn't a power buff, and instead created a field of status effect inducement and gradual damage infliction.
• Waddle Dee Army, the Final Smash that King Dedede had during Super Smash Bros. Brawl, was an amplified form of summoning preexisting allies, rather than a power buff. This final smash is effective because of the large quantity of attacks happening at the same time.
• Konga Beat, the Final Smash that Donkey Kong had before Super Smash Bros. Ultimate, lacked the super effectiveness of regular Final Smashes if Donkey Kong didn't play drums properly.
• Peach Blossom doesn't amplify Peach's power whatsoever, instead putting opponents to sleep and providing healing items. The same applies to Daisy using Daisy Blossom.
• Stampede, Yoshi's Final Smash during Super Smash Bros. Ultimate, is most effective when an overwhelming amount of non-amplified other Yoshis run over the target, after the main Yoshi sends the target to a different location.
• Piranha Plant's Final Smash summons Petey Piranha, who the characters are comparable to without Final Smash amplifications, as seen during The Subspace Emissary.
• House of Boom, Steve's Final Smash, is most effective when some Creepers cause a room full of preexisting TNT blocks to explode. Individual TNT blocks are part of Steve's regular arsenal.

It appears to me that the Smash Ball provides any degree of extraordinary capabilities, which peaks at tier 4-A one way or another, while not necessarily being a physical power buff specifically to that peak extent every time.

You can also argue that the reach was on a 2-A scale considering how Palutena’s Guidance on Young Link indicates that the Smash multiverse is infinite.

Good catch.

 

[Armorchompy]

For my own thoughts, I think High 6-A is the minimum. There shouldn't be a reason to use Lugia's feat and not Reshiram's, so I think this feat is fairly safe

My own idea is High 6-A, likely 4-B* | 3-A, likely Low 2-C with Spirits

High 6-A is safe as I said before, and scaling to Final Smashes should also be fairly safe. However, since Final Smashes are more power than they can normally output, I think a "likely" is here. Even if it's more than they usually put out, it's survivable by the entire cast, meaning they can probably downscale from their Final Smashes?

Nah man, it's clearly a big boost, some final smashes even straight-up have insta-kill mechanics. As James points out some of them aren't even amping the character. I definitely don't agree that characters should scale to them in base.

 

[CloverDragon03]

The ones with insta-kill mechanics don't have those mechanics kick in until the opponent's already taken a lot of damage so idk how much that actually means

 

[Arceus0x]

Nah man, it's clearly a big boost, some final smashes even straight-up have insta-kill mechanics. As James points out some of them aren't even amping the character. I definitely don't agree that characters should scale to them in base.

Wait which ones have the insta kill?

 

[CloverDragon03]

Wait which ones have the insta kill?

Ridley's comes to mind (insta-kills if you're at 100% or more)

 

[Arceus0x]

Ridley's comes to mind (insta-kills if you're at 100% or more)

Well either way at 0% at most they'll deal 40% and none will KO. They should downscale. At 100% Dedede's charge up hammer also one shots I'm pretty sure

 

[CloverDragon03]

There are multiple moves in Smash that can insta-kill even better than Final Smashes, like Roy's full charge Neutral B or even some fully charged Forward Smashes like Pyra's and Ganon's

 

[Armorchompy]

Wait which ones have the insta kill?

Ridley, Zelda, Bayonetta, Joker, Bowser. It triggers only if the opponent is at 100%. There's also Marth/Lucina's Critical Hit which deals way more damage and knockback than any other normal final smash.

Well either way at 0% at most they'll deal 40% and none will KO. They should downscale. At 100% Dedede's charge up hammer also one shots I'm pretty sure

"One hit kill" doesn't mean "do enough knock back to always get a kill" here, it means you get disintegrated on the spot

 

[StrymULTRA]

This doesn't apply to Ness' physical power, similar to why Rosalina's creation doesn't apply to her physical power. Ness in Super Smash Bros. doesn't physically have the power of Magicant just because he "created it" by standing on eight power spots, since that's a hax ability. Ness in EarthBound absorbed the power of Earth and Magicant so he could defeat Giygas, who would've destroyed the universe, whereas Ness has no evidence of having done this during Super Smash Bros. as far as I'm aware.

Ness in-canon gets blatantly amped in all the stats after absorbing Magicant, meaning he does scale physically.

About Ness absorbing it in Smash that's a whole other can of worms though.

 

[Armorchompy]

There's also Marth/Lucina's Critical Hit which deals way more damage and knockback than any other normal final smash.

I want to note that this isn't a gameplay thing, basically all games say it's an OHKO.

• "Marth/Lucina dashes forward and strikes. If the attack connects, it has the potential to be a one-hit KO. Marth dashes forward a long distance, so there's a risk that you can self-destruct, but you can press the button again to stop."
• "Marth's Final Smash. He thrusts his sword skyward, then rushes to meet his targeted enemy with furious speed. The blow he strikes is so powerful that his foe is instantly launched off the screen. As in Fire Emblem, a window appears that shows the character's hit points dropping rapidly to zero--but this is just for effect. Smash Bros. does not use a hit-point system."
• "Marth raises his Exalted Falchion to the sky and then rushes forward to deal an incredibly powerful blow, almost certainly KO'ing anyone and everyone who gets hit! When it's used in the air, he'll fly forward a certain distance. On the ground, however, he'll only dash to the edge of the platform he's standing on."
• "In Lucina's Final Smash, she raises her sword high before dashing swiftly forward to deliver a deadly blow to whomever she makes contact with first. Even if their damage is low, this strike is powerful enough to take out foes in a single hit. Just make sure you don't dash off the stage when you use it in midair!"

 

[CloverDragon03]

Well that just means Marth/Lucina's Final Smash > Sephiroth's Final Smash. Not sure how that's relevant though. That one is specifically noted to be especially powerful

 

[Armorchompy]

Well that just means Marth/Lucina's Final Smash > Sephiroth's Final Smash. Not sure how that's relevant though. That one is specifically noted to be especially powerful

If final smashes canonically vary in power that means you can't assume all the other ones to scale to Supernova's full blast, especially given that just a billionth of it is shown to seriously harm smashers.

 

[SamanPatou]

Honestly, Sephiroth's smash doesn't even deal damage, it has high knockback and status effects, but not much real damage.

Anyway, I still disagree with at least considering Galeem's beam an explosion, you can have ap through hax, but it's clearly reality warping, not a physical blast.

And tbf even the spirits-enhanced characters are still powerless when Galeem or Dharkon decide to use their ****-off AoE in the bad endings, showing that they are still far above them.

Also, my thing about Tabuu earlier was a joke, not a serious counterargument.

 

[CloverDragon03]

If final smashes canonically vary in power that means you can't assume all the other ones to scale to Supernova's full blast

Only one example was given. That's not enough to say for certain that they all vary (save for those that don't even attack to begin with, which aren't even in the equation for this)

especially given that just a billionth of it is shown to seriously harm smashers.

Also, I don't see how this is true? Like, we don't even see where they are to know this for certain. The logical assumption would be that Sephiroth would want to hit them directly with the attack

Anyway, I still disagree with at least considering Galeem's beam an explosion, you can have ap through hax, but it's clearly reality warping, not a physical blast.

Still scales to Galeem's actual AP though. "Significantly affecting" the universe is enough to qualify by our standards

And tbf even the spirits-enhanced characters are still powerless when Galeem or Dharkon decide to use their ****-off AoE in the bad endings, showing that they are still far above them.

There's nothing showing them as amped by Spirits in the bad ending cutscenes, and as I've explained before, there has been visual indicators of this before. None of which exist in these cutscenes, indicating they're in their base forms

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

Ness in-canon gets blatantly amped in all the stats after absorbing Magicant, meaning he does scale physically.

About Ness absorbing it in Smash that's a whole other can of worms though.

I know, that's my point; there's no evidence that the Super Smash Bros. iteration of Ness absorbed Magicant, and since it's a stage, there's only evidence of Ness not having absorbed it, so it doesn't physically apply to him here, but it does apply to Ness physically in the EarthBound canon.

 

[Armorchompy]

Only one example was given. That's not enough to say for certain that they all vary (save for those that don't even attack to begin with, which aren't even in the equation for this)

No? Ridley, Joker, Zelda, Bayonetta, Bowser, all of them have insta-kill properties. There's also the fact that some final smashes are just one big attack, while others are dozen-attack combos, it doesn't make sense to say that the same amount of power is being output by both when the latter is attacking way more for a similar effect. Various other final smashes also don't seem to amp the characters' physicals at all but rather grant them the ability to summon people (Yoshi, Joker), or transform (Wario, Bowser). You're just claiming there's a kind of universal consistency that just doesn't exist.

Also, I don't see how this is true? Like, we don't even see where they are to know this for certain. The logical assumption would be that Sephiroth would want to hit them directly with the attack

They're obviously on Earth/Midgar, which is very far from the Sun. Not only is that how it works in the original material which is obviously what's being referenced here but it's also when the attacks ends and actually deals damage. And also it's literally Earth, which would be the default assumption.

The logical assumption stops being logical because that's not what he does in FF7 lmao. And also obviously the characters aren't standing on the surface of the sun??

Still scales to Galeem's actual AP though. "Significantly affecting" the universe is enough to qualify by our standards

Even if it did why would it scale to his other attacks?

 

[ShockingPsychic]

Are the OHKO Smashes not just hax? Seems more like durability negation than anything, especially since the target already has to be weak. Otherwise, they just deal slightly more damage than Roy's neutral B or Hero's crit. Hero also has at least three OHKO moves that work in the same fashion as OHKO Smashes

I think those are hax

 

[Armorchompy]

I don't really think that's the case. All of them are just hitting the character with a bunch of AP, there isn't really a reason to assume they're hax beyond the effect, and Smash has a lot of gameplay abstractions that are definitely not "canon" so I wouldn't assume that that specific part is 100% representative of the "lore".

Hero's OHKO moves are explicitly hax, though.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Btw, I have another calc for Sephiroth's Supernova by reversing the formulae used to get durability. Even the edge of the explosion destroyed Earth, so I'll use Earth's GBE as the durability value.

E = I * CA

Earth's GBE = 2.487e+32 Joules

A = 0.68 meters^2 (there are a lot of different cross-sectional areas given the variety of characters, but this seems like a good middle ground)

I = 2.487e+32 / 0.68 = 3.6573529e+32 Joules/meter^2

I = P/A

Earth-Sun distance is 1 AU, or 1.5e+11 meters.

3.6573529e+32 = P / (4 * pi * (1.5e+11)^2)

P = 3.6573529e+32 * (4 * pi * (1.5e+11)^2)

P = 1.0340922e+56 Joules or 1.034 TeraFoe; Solar System level (4-B)

As for the responses to my arguments, I'll get to those in a bit.

 

[CloverDragon03]

No? Ridley, Joker, Zelda, Bayonetta, Bowser, all of them have insta-kill properties. There's also the fact that some final smashes are just one big attack, while others are dozen-attack combos, it doesn't make sense to say that the same amount of power is being output by both when the latter is attacking way more for a similar effect. Various other final smashes also don't seem to amp the characters' physicals at all but rather grant them the ability to summon people (Yoshi, Joker), or transform (Wario, Bowser). You're just claiming there's a kind of universal consistency that just doesn't exist.

Being honest I considered the ones with insta-kill mechanics to be some form of Limited Death Manipulation but aight

They're obviously on Earth/Midgar, which is very far from the Sun. Not only is that how it works in the original material which is obviously what's being referenced here but it's also when the attacks ends and actually deals damage. And also it's literally Earth, which would be the default assumption.

I suppose this works, considering the cutscene of Galeem clapping everyone up also starts on Earth before extending out to the rest of the universe

Would something like: "5-B, 4-B with Final Smash" for Sephiroth work? For other characters it would be something like "5-B, higher with Final Smash"

Also I've never played FF7 leave me alone

Even if it did why would it scale to his other attacks?

Well, for starters, it's not as if he takes a long time to charge it or anything. For instance, in the bad ending, it only takes him a little bit to charge it before firing it. Doesn't seem like an attack several orders of magnitude above his normal ones based on that.

In addition, Galeem was at the epicenter of this attack and was able to withstand it. This would mean his durability scales, which would scale to Dharkon's "normal" attacks since they can harm Galeem, and Galeem's "normal" attacks would scale to that via being able to match Dharkon's.

 

[Armorchompy]

Btw, I have another calc for Sephiroth's Supernova by reversing the formulae used to get durability. Even the edge of the explosion destroyed Earth, so I'll use Earth's GBE as the durability value.

E = I * CA

Earth's GBE = 2.487e+32 Joules

A = 0.68 meters^2 (there are a lot of different cross-sectional areas given the variety of characters, but this seems like a good middle ground)

I = 2.487e+32 / 0.68 = 3.6573529e+32 Joules/meter^2

I = P/A

Earth-Sun distance is 1 AU, or 1.5e+11 meters.

3.6573529e+32 = P / (4 * pi * (1.5e+11)^2)

P = 3.6573529e+32 * (4 * pi * (1.5e+11)^2)

P = 1.0340922e+56 Joules or 1.034 TeraFoe; Solar System level (4-B)

I think you're doing it wrong here. If you're doing square law of the Earth's destruction to see the full yield of the explosion then it'd be the Earth's cross sectional area, not the characters'.

• Approximation of Earth's CSA: 6371000^2 x pi = 1.2751612e+14
• (2.487e+32 / 1.2751612e+14) x (4π((1.5e+11)^2)) = 5.5144611e+41 Joules, Small Star level+

Granted, it'd get a lot higher if you did the KE of the planet's destruction, and then used that rather than the GBE.

Actually, regarding the original calculation, why did you use the sun's GBE as the energy value? That's at the center of the explosion, not the edge of it.

I suppose this works, considering the cutscene of Galeem clapping everyone up also starts on Earth before extending out to the rest of the universe

Would something like: "5-B, 4-B with Final Smash" for Sephiroth work? For other characters it would be something like "5-B, higher with Final Smash"

Yeah that'd be fair in my eyes. Granted I don't think it'd be 5-B necessarily, but that can be calced later.

Also I've never played FF7 leave me alone

It's a good game

Well, for starters, it's not as if he takes a long time to charge it or anything. For instance, in the bad ending, it only takes him a little bit to charge it before firing it. Doesn't seem like an attack several orders of magnitude above his normal ones based on that.

Eh, I don't wanna look like I'm just refusing to concede any grounds but we have decently strict UES standards and I wouldn't say this really passes them, he can to it at a whim but that doesn't necessarily not make it his strongest technique, especially when it does work differently from anything else.

In addition, Galeem was at the epicenter of this attack and was able to withstand it. This would mean his durability scales, which would scale to Dharkon's "normal" attacks since they can harm Galeem, and Galeem's "normal" attacks would scale to that via being able to match Dharkon's.

I mean the "attack" clearly didn't target him, it's still hax so even if it did it'd be a resistance, but being the origin of the beams doesn't mean he was exposed to their effect, I feel like most ranged attacks aren't really thought of that way in fiction.

 

[ShockingPsychic]

I see the logic in either scaling or not scaling base fighters to Final Smashes, so I'm neutral

Personally I think downscaling to baseline (whatever Sephiroth's tier is) would be fair, but I'm good either direction

However, I do think that that all (damaging) Final Smashes should scale to each other, it'd be weird if the Smash Ball gave Sephiroth 4-B power but only gave Jigglypuff and Link like... 9-A power

Some FSs don't deal damage but give new hax, which is the tradeoff for physical power. Daisy and Peach fall under this category

 

[CloverDragon03]

I think you're doing it wrong here. If you're doing square law of the Earth's destruction to see the full yield of the explosion then it'd be the Earth's cross sectional area, not the characters'.

• Approximation of Earth's CSA: 6371000^2 x pi = 1.2751612e+14
• (2.487e+32 / 1.2751612e+14) x (4π((1.5e+11)^2)) = 5.5144611e+41 Joules, Small Star level+

Granted, it'd get a lot higher if you did the KE of the planet's destruction, and then used that rather than the GBE.

My rationale was to do this from the lens of a character who can withstand this explosion whose edge can destroy the Earth. Though that's probably not how this works.

I can also work on a calc for the KE of the planet's destruction if that helps

Actually, regarding the original calculation, why did you use the sun's GBE as the energy value? That's at the center of the explosion, not the edge of it.

Good question. No wonder no one evaluated it

So it'd be the Earth's then, yeah? I'll adjust it

Yeah that'd be fair in my eyes. Granted I don't think it'd be 5-B necessarily, but that can be calced later.

Yeah the specifics can be worked out but the general idea stands

Eh, I don't wanna look like I'm just refusing to concede any grounds but we have decently strict UES standards and I wouldn't say this really passes them, he can to it at a whim but that doesn't necessarily not make it his strongest technique, especially when it does work differently from anything else.

I mean the "attack" clearly didn't target him, it's still hax so even if it did it'd be a resistance, but being the origin of the beams doesn't mean he was exposed to their effect, I feel like most ranged attacks aren't really thought of that way in fiction.

Wouldn't this still scale to dura for the same reason said "hax" is AP? Significantly affecting the universe makes it an AP feat. And in addition, the attack became more of an all-encompassing wave of light, which Galeem would have most certainly been exposed to in that case.

 

[ShockingPsychic]

I mean the "attack" clearly didn't target him, it's still hax so even if it did it'd be a resistance

The attack originated from his body/core, and we've already talked about how he significantly altered the universe, which qualifies for AP.

I also wanna bring up the wording. "Crushed" implies destruction, not transmutation. "Create a new world" implies creation, not transmutation. The most strict interpretation is that he obliterated the old world and created it anew