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How much stronger than someone do you need to be to splatter them.
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Prime All Might Multiplier - Possible Discussion Thread Rule Addition After?
- Thread starter Kingofwolves999
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Oh yeah, that's also completely arbitrary
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That it burst out of his chest? How about the fact that we literally see it burst from his chest.
You think a punch caused that? Tell me how the large, curved punch of Shigaraki made a small opening in his chest all the way to his heart like that? So deep but so small how is Shigaraki’s huge fist doing that again? Since you clearly care about realism very much asking for, what was it, burn marks? Past the blood on his chest? Hell why don’t you ask why we often don’t see burn marks on Bakugou’s palms literally every time he does an explosion.
A high end? Yeah I can say Mirko’s about as durable than a high end, if not more so, she literally threw a kick that cut one in half. Equal and opposite reaction, basic stuff ya know.
But you’re claiming she took a hit 60x times stronger than weakened All Might and the High End. So yes she absolutely should’ve been splattered from that. 5x multiplier however means she could’ve just been one shotted rather than splattered. That’s a huge difference you’re talking here.
Maybe the multiplier isn’t as big as you’re claiming? Even here on the wiki we treat like a 7.5x AP difference as one shot levels, so a 5x AP difference being one shot levels in a series but not head popping off levels isn’t so unreasonable while a 60x difference is.
If you have to use plot induced stupidity this much as an argument to justify a 60x multiplier, then maybe the multiplier isn’t as large as you’re claiming it is. Hence why a 5x or whatever difference is more reasonable since it makes these supposedly “stupid moments” in the plot not so stupid anymore.
So you’re going to just straight lie now? Where have I said what you claim or are you going to mischaracterize me this badly, for what? The sake of your ego? I don’t understand why you felt the need to mischaracterize me this badly.
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- #164
I’m going to ignore a vast portion of this as, again, it is pointless, and you’re getting upset over nonsensical things, but your argument about the multipliers is explicitly incorrect and doesn’t address anything I said.That it burst out of his chest? How about the fact that we literally see it burst from his chest.
You think a punch caused that? Tell me how the large, curved punch of Shigaraki made a small opening in his chest all the way to his heart like that? So deep but so small how is Shigaraki’s huge fist doing that again? Since you clearly care about realism very much asking for, what was it, burn marks? Past the blood on his chest? Hell why don’t you ask why we often don’t see burn marks on Bakugou’s palms literally every time he does an explosion.
A high end? Yeah I can say Mirko’s about as durable than a high end, if not more so, she literally threw a kick that cut one in half. Equal and opposite reaction, basic stuff ya know.
But you’re claiming she took a hit 60x times stronger than weakened All Might and the High End. So yes she absolutely should’ve been splattered from that. 5x multiplier however means she could’ve just been one shotted rather than splattered. That’s a huge difference you’re talking here.
Maybe the multiplier isn’t as big as you’re claiming? Even here on the wiki we treat like a 7.5x AP difference as one shot levels, so a 5x AP difference being one shot levels in a series but not head popping off levels isn’t so unreasonable while a 60x difference is.
If you have to use plot induced stupidity this much as an argument to justify a 60x multiplier, then maybe the multiplier isn’t as large as you’re claiming it is. Hence why a 5x or whatever difference is more reasonable since it makes these supposedly “stupid moments” in the plot not so stupid anymore.
So you’re going to just straight lie now? Where have I said what you claim or are you going to mischaracterize me this badly, for what? The sake of your ego? I don’t understand why you felt the need to mischaracterize me this badly.
I’m asking you, no multipliers or anything, why Shigaraki did not one shot Mirko’s head off if he is stronger than her and she is less durable than a High End.
Via the story, Mirko is so much weaker than the High Ends durability wise, that the only reason she was able to keep moving and fighting them after they swatted her face was because she canceled the force with her legs.
This same Mirko gets hit in the face by someone stronger than not only herself, which would be enough to shred parts of her body off, but also the High Ends. And yet she just gets knocked out for a little bit.
That is inconsistent no matter how you tell it. That’s not reducing it to PIS, I want to hear your exact reasoning for why High Ends can be torn apart by Mirko’s kicks, but Shigaraki who is stronger than Mirko cannot tear apart people weaker than the High Ends in his evolved form.
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- #165
Evolved Shigaraki > Shigaraki > Mirko’s AP >tears apart> High Ends > Mirko’s durability
But Evolved Shigaraki cannot tear apart Mirko. Despite doing so to Bakugo, someone equal to Mirko’s durability, with a swipe of his hand across the face. So please. Explain.
But Evolved Shigaraki cannot tear apart Mirko. Despite doing so to Bakugo, someone equal to Mirko’s durability, with a swipe of his hand across the face. So please. Explain.
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Well maybe you shouldn’t ignore it since you clearly didn’t read the post I made. Don’t worry I won’t retype anything, I’ll just make sure to quote myself again in the areas where you’ve blatantly not read your points being addressed. Also I wouldn’t say I’m getting upset over “nonsensical things.” I’m just pointing out how you lied about me and terribly mischaracterized what I said.
hopefully this time you won’t repeat yourself again after I’ve literally already given you an answer.
To quote myself:
Here’s Mirko literally getting hit square in the face by those very same high ends and being just fine.
“So much weaker durability wise” yet takes their blows fine and rips them apart with her bare body.
Being hit by someone stronger than herself doesn’t necessarily mean her body is gonna be shred apart. It depends on how much stronger someone is that determines whether her body should be getting splattered or if it’s more reasonable that she just got knocked out. I don’t know how you can exclude multipliers from this discussion when how much stronger your opponent is from you is a factor that plays into the amount of damage you should be taking from their blows.
She’s still knocked out by the way. I don’t know if that’s a “little bit.”
Because how much stronger you are then someone plays a role into this and the type of move you do plays a role in this. You seemingly don’t understand how these factors play a role but it’s pretty simple. Someone who punches you in the face wouldn’t necessarily rip your head off from your shoulders, depending on how much stronger they are than you. However someone who is literally trying to rip your head off from your neck may have a comparatively more successful time doing so just by the nature of their move vs yours, even if they’re not that much stronger than their opponent comparatively so.
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- #167
Might want to link the whole thing of her “taking a hit from the High Ends” since she literally replies that the reason she can still move is because she cancelled the impact of that smack with her legs.
“How much stronger they are matters.”
Ok? Mirko is consistently shown weaker than the High Ends. Her kicks can tear apart their bodies, as her legs are the strongest part of her, evidenced by them cancelling out the force of the attack she survived.
Shigaraki is stronger than her, so he is also able to rip apart High Ends.
If he can rip apart High Ends, he can rip apart Mirko.
Except he doesn’t rip apart Mirko despite getting even stronger on top of the gap in strength already present.
You have not explained this at all.
The gap between Shigaraki and Mirko is higher than the gap between Mirko’s kicks and the High Ends, as Shigaraki is stronger than her kicks and she is weaker than the High Ends. So why can he not tear her body into chunks.
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You’re making contradictory statements here. You can’t she’s consistently shown weaker than the high ends if she’s capable of cancelling out their impact. You need to be able to apply the same level of force to cancel something out.
You can’t say she’s weaker than the high ends but her kicks are strong. That mean she’s as strong as the high ends since she fights with her kicks. Also the fact that she literally rips apart one of the high ends’ head with her kick but the same can’t be don’t to her proves Mirko’s kicks are stronger than the High Ends. Feats showcase that ya know.
She also explicitly says they’re “weak” to her close ranged attacks, so you sure she’s not as durable as them?
So no just because you can physically rip a high end apart doesn’t mean you can do the same to Mirko cause she’s not weak to close ranged moves like those guys are.
“Doesn’t rip Mirko apart” yet she’s literally limbless when she goes to fight him
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- #169
Her legs are stronger than the rest of her. Her durability is worse for herself than her legs. That’s literally how we have her durability rated on the wiki and was decided on ages ago. She is weaker than them, her legs are not, so she is weaker than her kicks.You’re making contradictory statements here. You can’t she’s consistently shown weaker than the high ends if she’s capable of cancelling out their impact. You need to be able to apply the same level of force to cancel something out.
You can’t say she’s weaker than the high ends but her kicks are strong. That mean she’s as strong as the high ends since she fights with her kicks. Also the fact that she literally rips apart one of the high ends’ head with her kick but the same can’t be don’t to her proves Mirko’s kicks are stronger than the High Ends. Feats showcase that ya know.
She also explicitly says they’re “weak” to her close ranged attacks, so you sure she’s not as durable as them?
So no just because you can physically rip a high end apart doesn’t mean you can do the same to Mirko cause she’s not weak to close ranged moves like those guys are.
“Doesn’t rip Mirko apart” yet she’s literally limbless when she goes to fight him
“Weak to close range moves” is for that specific Nomu and it’s talking about fighting style not a literal weakness. That’s why she calls him out about using long ranged moves, especially since all High Ends have the same base physical stats.
They do not have a “weakness to close range moves” that makes no sense whatsoever. What, do you think their durability drops when you punch them but they can tank any ranged attack?
The Imgur I posted has her tearing chunks out of High End brains with a Luna Arc. She doesn’t say those guys, who fight IN CLOSE COMBAT, are weak to her close range moves. It’s specifically for this Nomu because he started using long range moves like a spatial distortion to take her out from afar, and it’s about how he’s fighting her, not about his literal durability.
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A “weakness to close combat moves” means he’s bad in close combat. This is referring to his quirks as he clearly isn’t built to brawl in close combat like the other Nomu who jumped to do exactly that against Mirko. She notes this with her statement about him using long ranged moves. He’s using them because he is not as good in close combat.
Claiming that she’s talking about a literal weakness, a flaw in his design or some kind of exploit that makes his body easier to tear into, is ridiculous.
Claiming that she’s talking about a literal weakness, a flaw in his design or some kind of exploit that makes his body easier to tear into, is ridiculous.
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The weakness here definitely doesn't refer to durability. In the same page she brings up the fact that Nomu attacks from a distance because that Nomu specifically has a long ranged laser quirk. This obviously isn't to say that his durability is weaker against "close ranged attacks" (which would be insane considering any attack that hits him would be close range) but simply because he's the only Nomu who doesn't fight at a close range and is thus not as skilled/capable as the others.You’re making contradictory statements here. You can’t she’s consistently shown weaker than the high ends if she’s capable of cancelling out their impact. You need to be able to apply the same level of force to cancel something out.
You can’t say she’s weaker than the high ends but her kicks are strong. That mean she’s as strong as the high ends since she fights with her kicks. Also the fact that she literally rips apart one of the high ends’ head with her kick but the same can’t be don’t to her proves Mirko’s kicks are stronger than the High Ends. Feats showcase that ya know.
She also explicitly says they’re “weak” to her close ranged attacks, so you sure she’s not as durable as them?
So no just because you can physically rip a high end apart doesn’t mean you can do the same to Mirko cause she’s not weak to close ranged moves like those guys are.
“Doesn’t rip Mirko apart” yet she’s literally limbless when she goes to fight him
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- #173
All my stuff is straight off of Shonen Jump. I’m using my phone and Imgur so that probably makes the quality dip.
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Yeah mirkos durability is clearly lowers than the high end nomus, only her legs are stronger. And even then the high end nomus were able to seriously damage her legs. So apex shigaraki>75% shigaraki>high-end nomus>mirko durability wise. Apex shigaraki should have no problem blasting her body to bits.
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Unless the difference in strength isn't actually 60x.
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How so? If the high end nomus were able to damage her so badly, apex shigaraki should literally turn her body to fine dust without decay. There's no need to bring up any multipliers here this is just simple following logic.
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- #177
The multiplier is literally irrelevant to the point tho.
Her kicks can tear apart high ends. Her durability is lower than the high ends.
Shigaraki is stronger than her kicks, so why can he not tear her apart when he gets even stronger?
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Since there’s been a lot of talk on this thread, I feel I should update my stance
As this thread has gone on, I’ve strangely not seen any proper debunk of the 60x multiplier. I say “strangely” because it’s been viewed as something incredibly outlandish, yet the best “arguments” have revolved around disbelief a la an argument from incredulity, a questioning of the simplicity of 300 / 5 = 60(??????), misunderstandings of how Shock Absorption works, etc.
Also I’ve seen claims that Bakugo’s final explosions against Shigaraki are what popped his heart? Like… No, all the story context points to the fact that this was Shigaraki’s doing.
I’m leaning more toward agreeing with the 60x multiplier now.
Side Note: Can we keep the 5-6x multiplier talk to a minimum? This is about the 60x multiplier and whether or not it’s valid. Once that’s settled, we can get into the 5-6x multiplier.
As this thread has gone on, I’ve strangely not seen any proper debunk of the 60x multiplier. I say “strangely” because it’s been viewed as something incredibly outlandish, yet the best “arguments” have revolved around disbelief a la an argument from incredulity, a questioning of the simplicity of 300 / 5 = 60(??????), misunderstandings of how Shock Absorption works, etc.
Also I’ve seen claims that Bakugo’s final explosions against Shigaraki are what popped his heart? Like… No, all the story context points to the fact that this was Shigaraki’s doing.
I’m leaning more toward agreeing with the 60x multiplier now.
Side Note: Can we keep the 5-6x multiplier talk to a minimum? This is about the 60x multiplier and whether or not it’s valid. Once that’s settled, we can get into the 5-6x multiplier.
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I'm still failing to see how that is the conclusion you make, but I could just be misunderstanding.
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Well, let's say that Apex Shigaraki isn't that much stronger than 75% Shigaraki.
75% Shigaraki could still hit heroes like Endeavor, Gran Torino and Ryuyku without completely oblitering at them. Although he is unquestionably stronger than them, it's not to the point where he tears right through them unless he puts in serious effort like when he had to physically dig through Ryukyu's hands or punch Gran Torino's guts out.
So it follows with Mirko. If 75% Shigaraki could hit those three characters above without killing them, and it's because he isn't 60x stronger than them, then Apex Shigaraki could hit Mirko without killing her, due to not being 60x stronger than her.
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That feels really weak and disingenuous. Firstly mirko was seriously injured and deformed and was going to die to the high end nomus. 75% Shigaraki would one tap all those high end nomus. And you can't say apex shigaraki isn't that much stronger than 75% Shigaraki when 75% Shigaraki got hurt by nejires energy blasts but apex shigaraki literally took multiple hits from mirio with nejires blast wrapped around his fist and it literally had 0 effect on him in every way conceivable, and mirio was able to easily fight against high end nomus. Apex shigaraki also took 0 damage from tamajikis ultimate move fused with nejires blast. By all logic apex shigaraki would turn mirko into mince meat.
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- #182
Those three characters are more durable than Mirko though, except for maybe Ryukyu (and idk why we haven’t updated Torino to High 6-C). Endeavor especially has incredible durability, him and Mirko simply aren’t comparable, yet they’re still getting slapped around. For Shigaraki to then get massively amped with his weird growth evolutions, and to go from “not quite All Might” level to “Prime All Might” level, I don’t see how you can make any judgment on whether he can or can’t rip their bodies apart. The only way to judge that would be looking at what he’s scaling to or above, and as shown in the fight, he has far more than enough strength to shatter their bodies with the barest of direct contact.
It’s only when he gets a straight kill shot punch to the face on Mirko, after his evolution, that suddenly they can survive hits from him at all, let alone hits from his massive death hand family thing.
And Shigaraki is far, far stronger than he was back then as well, on top of having undergone an evolution mid battle. It’s to the point where the strongest attacks they have, like Sun Eater’s Plasma Cannon that stacks dozens of power ups, don’t even move him, when an attack like Nejire’s blasts before would have hurt him. Heck, Nejire’s blasts are so weak to him now that they can’t even scratch his skin, let alone cause any actual damage or matter to him.
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The only time Shigraki's main body was hurt by Nejire's blast was when she did it at full strength in a combination attack with Shoto, after Tomura had been savagely burned by Endeavor and after he had taken dozens of blows from Izuku - to that point where it's stated that his body is in a wretched state and could fail at any moment.
I think it'd also be a bit disingenuous to compare this to Tomura in peak condition...
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- #184
Nejire’s blasts can hurt high ends so even if he was normal he would still get hurt by them. He’s superior to High Ends but not wildly so, only after his growth things kick in for the Final War does he eclipse their power with his “Prime All Might” stats. This is directly shown in the fight with Star and Stripe with him and the Nomu being comparable and taking the same damage from the same attacks.
So going by that, a High End Nomu wouldn’t even be able to scratch Shigaraki’s skin as he is now.
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You say he wasn't wildly superior to the High-Ends but ShigarakiShimura says that he would one-tap them. Which is it?
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Idk why he would say that, I completely disagree with that. 75% Shigaraki is somewhat above High Ends but clearly is comparable, as shown in the SnS fight.
Prime AM level Shiggy should absolutely be able to one shot High Ends, as he is stronger than Mirko who can tear their brains and bodies apart.
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Yeah sorry for that I was exaggerating for the sake of making my point clear that apex shigaraki and mirko have a massive difference. But 75% shigaraki would still beat the high end nomus just not one-tap.
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You’re not even making sense here for the points you’re making. We were talking about her AP. You literally quoted me saying “how much stronger is her opponent than her” and responded with “she’s consistently shown weaker than the high ends.”
When I pointed out that this doesn’t make sense because she cancelled out their attacks meaning she’s not shown weaker than them, you shifted to saying oh it was only her body’s durability you meant she was weaker in. Even though the point was about how Mirko’s AP stacks up against the high ends.
You’re not keeping track of the points you’re making. Mirko’s body having “lower durability” than her legs isn’t related to the point of “how much stronger” Mirko is compared to her opponent.
Actually no, we can literally see that the nomu’s are weaker than her to her close ranged attacks.
Remember how you commented about Mirko being weaker than the high ends, well we can clearly see that’s not the case:
Look at that, in this image we can see one Nomu hitting Mirko square in the face and she’s fine, but her kick absolutely shredded another Nomu’s brain. This has to mean Mirko’s stronger than this Nomu. She didn’t cancel this attack out, she was but square on, the attack she cancelled out was her being launched but this attack she takes square on and does noticeably far more damage to the Nomu than the high end did to her.
So your point of “If you’re able to tear a high end then you should be able to tear Mirko” doesn’t hold water because we can literally see in an exchange of blows that Mirko doesn’t get torn apart from the high ends like to high ends get torn apart by her.
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But the whole point of this is about how mirkos durability fairs against apex shigarakis ap?
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So, it is over 60x
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The point he was responding to was specifically about how much stronger her opponent was compared to herself. He even quoted me specifically about that point, so he’s referring to AP in that instance so saying “Mirko’s consistently weaker than the high ends” must be in reference to her AP.
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He's explicitly shown to be drastically superior.
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No need to bring up old arguments up again we've already went over that with damage. Just saying so we don't waste our time repeating ourselves
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- #194
I would appreciate it if you toned down the hostility.You’re not even making sense here for the points you’re making. We were talking about her AP. You literally quoted me saying “how much stronger is her opponent than her” and responded with “she’s consistently shown weaker than the high ends.”
When I pointed out that this doesn’t make sense because she cancelled out their attacks meaning she’s not shown weaker than them, you shifted to saying oh it was only her body’s durability you meant she was weaker in. Even though the point was about how Mirko’s AP stacks up against the high ends.
You’re not keeping track of the points you’re making. Mirko’s body having “lower durability” than her legs isn’t related to the point of “how much stronger” Mirko is compared to her opponent.
Actually no, we can literally see that the nomu’s are weaker than her to her close ranged attacks.
Remember how you commented about Mirko being weaker than the high ends, well we can clearly see that’s not the case:
Look at that, in this image we can see one Nomu hitting Mirko square in the face and she’s fine, but her kick absolutely shredded another Nomu’s brain. This has to mean Mirko’s stronger than this Nomu. She didn’t cancel this attack out, she was but square on, the attack she cancelled out was her being launched but this attack she takes square on and does noticeably far more damage to the Nomu than the high end did to her.
So your point of “If you’re able to tear a high end then you should be able to tear Mirko” doesn’t hold water because we can literally see in an exchange of blows that Mirko doesn’t get torn apart from the high ends like to high ends get torn apart by her.
I was ALWAYS talking about her durability. The entire point of the scan, wherein she cancelled out the force of the High Ends attack, is to show that her legs are strong enough to completely negate some of the damage that attack would have done.
As you keep showing, she gets palmed in the face and then thrown backwards. When she re-emerges, she is bloodied and damaged significantly. The Nomu question how Mirko is even moving after taking a hit like that, and she responds that she cancelled the impact with her legs. She directly answers that the hit she takes, the one you claim shows her comparable if not stronger than them, was cancelled by the her legs. So that entire point of her scaling to them is simply not sensible.
How does her being able to damage them mean that they’re weak to close combat? As was already established, any attack that hits them would count as close combat, that kind of “weakness” is impossible to extrapolate. She only mentioned that to the Nomu using long ranged attack specifically because of his Quirk set, his fighting style is weak to close combat fighters, not because every High End there is weak to her kicks. They’re weak to her kicks because her kicks are that much stronger than them, nothing else.
Also, allow me to say something… your scans are atrocious.
I hadn’t been checking that panel cause I trusted that you were using the OFFICIAL translations, but clearly that was incorrect.
“Guys who fight with ranged moves… don’t tend to do so hot in close quarters.”
This debunks your entire premise. Use the actual, official manga for your translations, not fan translations.
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Current Shigaraki > 75% Shigaraki, who is stated to be a PERFECTED NOMU by Aizawa, who knows about the USJ Nomu, meaning the Nomu that was fighting All Might was shown to be incomplete in comparison to the "perfection" of his incomplete form. Furthermore, he's stated to be Garaki's masterpiece, making his incomplete form superior to Nine, who was fighting 100% Dynamight and Deku, two guys equivalent to weakened All Might.
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After we're inevitably done with this mirko argument what's left to argue about? Seems like we've went over everything.
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- #197
Wait for people to read the OP and arguments to formulate what option they think has more backing.
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I'm just afraid people are going to ignore the 60× multiplier just because it's a "big" number like they've been doing throughout this whole discussion.
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It's fair to be cautious when it comes to introducing a potentially huge scaling disparity. When issues were brought up with such a multiplier and how it affects the current characters, people have had to resort to saying "PIS" to excuse some of the issues.
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The “PIS” issue presented in the OP is irrelevant to the multiplier though, it is purely on the story basis of the characters durability vs Shigaraki’s. He could be 5x stronger than them and this discrepancy still exists because Mirko tearing apart High End bodies in itself presents massive issues for people stronger than her.
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