- 1,412
- 994
i would replace ignorant with misinformed to keep things civil and polite, the arguments are now done so all we need to do is wait for staff input
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Prime All Might Multiplier - Possible Discussion Thread Rule Addition After?
- Thread starter Kingofwolves999
- Start date
- Status
- 8,211
- 12,525
- Thread starter
- #242
But why is 60x too big? If he hits people directly, they just get one shot, with no exceptions.
- 657
- 546
The entire argument of 60× being too big is now gone now that we know you need way more than 60× difference to splatter someone.
- 1,412
- 994
do we actually know how great a 60 times AP difference is?
they get one shotted if hit directly, sure, but that's it, that's all we know
if he failed to one hit kill someone then that would count as anti feat, but from i've seen that never happened
- 20,606
- 17,607
I'm also for the graph but not mentioned for some reason.
You're confusing AP for general durability. People are more durable than 106 joules, its just an average output a normal person can produce. But that's different from durability.
I also don't know why you're bringing up fragmentating a person to goring some parts of a body. Your comparison only works if she were to reduce an entire Nomu to a mist.
- 8,211
- 12,525
- Thread starter
- #246
The fragmenting is for the overall argument that “Shigaraki did not splatter the people 60x weaker than him, so he cannot be 60x stronger than them.” The Mirko/Nomu stuff is a completely different conversation.
How durable are people then? That will give a better understanding of the AP gap required to fragment them.
Edit: added your vote for the graph, apologies for that
- 20,606
- 17,607
Shig not goring people isn't really relevant for a 60x amp. He's clearly stronger than them and we have plenty of evidence of a character vastly stronger than others defeating someone else without goring them (see any comic book superhero scaling).
It's about volume and pressure, not energy. The example with A-Train resulted in the woman's entire body being destroyed, she only destroyed portions of limbs or parts of their head. That involves substantial less force to accomplish and she accomplished it but using an attack with a significantly smaller surface area..
- 31,583
- 28,037
To be fair the only person that mentioned "splattering" aside from the OP was Therefir. I never said that.
The issue that I pointed out was that Shigaraki showed relative superiority to characters like Endeavor, Ryukyu, etc. when he wasn't over 60 times stronger than them, and he showed that same kind of superiority over Mirko and the others. He doesn't need to have grown 60 times stronger since the PLW Arc. And nobody on the hero's side ever points out that he is massively stronger than he was during the first war.
When Endeavor compares him to All Might, why are we supposed to think that he's compared him to weakened All Might and not All Might in his prime? When Garaki says that Tomura isn't quite on par with All Might, could he not mean that he's just slightly inferior to Prime All Might?
- 20,606
- 17,607
"Realistically" it's just pierce through them assuming extreme velocity is not involved. It would be like shooting a thin metal plate with something like a anti-material rifle. The round will overpenetrate and not deform due to carrying an excessive amount of energy. It sounds gory but it would be similar to injuries related to a falling industrial pipes, where it just punches through the body without exploding the person.
- 657
- 546
I'm sorry but the superiority shigaraki show3d in the PLW arc and the superiority he showed in the final war arc are extremely different. Shigaraki got hurt multiple times in the PLW arc. In the final war arc they couldn't AFFECT HIM AT ALL, physically that is. And they drive that point pretty clearly that they can't hurt him, their main objective in the final war arc is for deku to fight shigaraki. They're there just to stall.
- 4,477
- 4,551
This thread is pretty long, so I apologize if I'm bringing up something that's already being covered but wouldn't a bigger proponent against the multiplier be the Stars and Stripes missile feat? Because Shigiraki awakened only at around 75% and would've been killed by what we currently have rated as a Low 6-B calc. So unless we're dramatically dropping the tiering of weakened All-Might and everyone that scales to him, we have little reason to accept this multiplier. Not to mention, that while it could push the tier of High 6-C up a bit, there's no way to implement this multiplier as an upgrade that really fits with what we're shown as the limits of Shigraki.
- 8,211
- 12,525
- Thread starter
- #253
The “splattering” argument is the one I hear the most in general thread and one I personally have used when discussing the proposed “inconsistency” of them surviving his punch.
Shigaraki was getting stronger over the entirety of the month break post-all out war. He then went to fight Star, and was still around the same strength. He was equal to the High End Nomu.
But now, in this final war, he is directly calling himself on par with Prime All Might. He now has an ever changing, adapting and evolving body that is completely independent from Quirks. He can now tank kicks from Mirko which can tear chunks out of High Ends. He is now, suddenly, wildly more powerful than he was even in his fight with Star.
Star claims that her strength rule can’t make her as strong as All Might (referring to his prime), and she can make pre-growth Shigaraki have a nose bleed with one punch.
Current Shigsraki is now flat out saying he IS on par with Prime All Might. So clearly he underwent some sort of amplification that was significant enough for him to now believe himself literally invincible.
- 8,211
- 12,525
- Thread starter
- #254
His fear was that her attack would kill him yes, but that in itself isn’t consistent because the High End Nomu got hit with that bomb directly and survived it, point blank. So logically he shouldn’t have even been worried about surviving if his Nomu would have lived until he told it to explode.
Also, this upgrade would apply only to the characters far stronger than the Shigaraki and Nomu present in this battle. 75% Shigaraki doesn’t get upgraded from this, nor does anyone else at that High 6-C level, it solely affects Prime All Might level characters, who are the god tiers.
- 16,698
- 12,608
I mean, we could just increase the value of that attack.
- 8,211
- 12,525
- Thread starter
- #256
… no? Why would we do that?
- 657
- 546
Also shigaraki was getting constantly bombarded by a stream of high powered lasers as to lower his durability.
- 2,134
- 2,421
Also, I want to add that I think Shigaraki didn't have any clue what kind of attack to even expect. That's why he was fearful that something could. But it didn't.
- 8,211
- 12,525
- Thread starter
- #259
Shigaraki even mentions that she would need an attack strong enough to literally vaporize him, otherwise her efforts are meaningless. So he was concerned that whatever attack she was pulling out would be enough to vaporize him, hence why he ducked down and used the Nomu as a decoy.
Yet the Nomu didn’t get vaporized, its body was mainly in tact and it was still alive. So his concerns were very weirdly unfounded since he himself would have survived it. He says it would’ve been a “fatal error,” but everything else points to him simply surviving it.
Yet the Nomu didn’t get vaporized, its body was mainly in tact and it was still alive. So his concerns were very weirdly unfounded since he himself would have survived it. He says it would’ve been a “fatal error,” but everything else points to him simply surviving it.
- 657
- 546
Again he would also have a weakened durability after those lasers. Also, it was atomize not vaporize.
- 4,477
- 4,551
Using that High End Nomu as an example doesn't make sense because it survived, it didn't tank the attack. Those are two very different things, hence why we're not scaling Shigiraki to the full yield of the calc at the moment. Even more than that, it is pretty explicit that he would die from it. Not to mention, we're shown Shigiraki badly damaged not even from tanking anything close to the full yield of the explosion. So a 1.25 multiplier shouldn't put him anywhere close to what the 60x multipler would if we implemented it.
Lasers or not, there's no real way to reconcile him suddenly being 60x stronger without completely disregarding that calc in its entirety. Which currently works as a cap of power in the series because of how much damage it did to Shigiraki
- 657
- 546
This multiplier would literally not affect that version of shigaraki? This is a prime allmight multiplier. So idk what's wrong here
- 8,211
- 12,525
- Thread starter
- #263
The reason he was badly damaged was because he was being constantly burned by a massive laser spear, frying him down to the point his skeleton was showing. The Nomu was similarly caught in that laser, and was then slammed with the missiles. So a heavily weakened, burned and taxed Nomu got smacked in the face with that attack and survived it. So Shigaraki would have survived it as well, despite his statement that it would’ve been a “fatal error.”
Unless Shigaraki is inferior to this one specific High End, I’m not seeing much of a reason to be citing Star’s bomb as the cap for people that would genuinely one shot the High Ends. Even Mirko did more damage to High Ends than Star’s bomb did to that specific High End.
- 11,363
- 13,481
Thread is long, I'm saving my opinion on the multiplier but I need to say this. 75% Shigaraki is vastly weaker than Complete Shigaraki.
Complete Shigaraki can tank attacks that can tear through the bodies of High-Ends, who have equal durability to 75% Shigaraki, with zero damage.
The limits of Complete Shigaraki have no defined value. 75% or Incomplete Shigaraki can't scale to or above the missiles, I agree with that, but Complete Shigaraki isn't bound by that same logic. Him and Prime All Might can be stronger or weaker than them depending on what we find.
This is also ignoring the fact that due to the surface area of the explosion and the inverse square law, Shigaraki wouldn't even be hit by 1% of the explosion. That is the real reason there is no scaling, not because of what you've said. It's already been agreed on that it's physically impossible for all of that energy to hit him.
We've calculated that the energy that would hit Shigaraki from the explosion is around than 1.9 Gigatons of TNT, which means 1.9 GT would kill him?
No, we're just ignoring the missile feat all together.
- 8,211
- 12,525
- Thread starter
- #265
- 657
- 546
If you have time please read through the thread and give us your opinion when you're done.
Mapl3Sy4up
Username Only- 5,483
- 3,177
I love both of these, so I dont care which is used, I guess put me down for 60x because big number make my brain go =)
But either or is fineBoth of these lead to atleast a Low 6-B Prime AM Tier and atleast 6-B Deku with Fa-Jin if we use the ISL to get High 6-C+ Weakened AM Tier so I'm happy with either
and while it does make me wonder how Overdrive would be factored into this (because simply activation brings his from his full cowling at that point to the same energy as using all his Fa-Jin chargeunless I'm stupid which is likely and adding blackwhip ontop of that) that should be saved for a different thread
But either or is fine
and while it does make me wonder how Overdrive would be factored into this (because simply activation brings his from his full cowling at that point to the same energy as using all his Fa-Jin charge
- 4,477
- 4,551
While I'm iffy on treating 100% Shigraki completely separate from 75%, if we're not using the missile calc at all, then I'll drop it.
- 1,658
- 1,281
After reading through this I think the 60x multiplier has enough going for it
- 31,583
- 28,037
This is more of a neutral post not meant for either side, but I wanted to go back and get every statement I could find for actually comparing Tomura to All Might:
1) Endeavour recognizes Tomura's manevourability in the air and his superhuman jumps as being "Just like... [All Might]". No mention is made on whether he's referring to weakened or prime All Might.
2) Dr. Garaki claims that Tomura is "not quite on par with All Might, sadly." No mention is made on whether he's referring to weakened or prime All Might.
3) Endeavour claims that Tomura is "as powerful and sturdy as All Might". No mention is made on whether he's referring to weakened or prime All Might.
4) Tomura warns the heroes against getting too close to him because it'll mean they're "in for an intimate taste of power on par with All Might's." No mention is made on whether he's referring to weakened or prime All Might.
5) Tomura compares himself to All Might in his prime, in terms of toughness/durability. He questions the heroes asking if they think their last attack would have killed All Might in his prime. This is the only time when someone makes an explicit comparison to All Might in his prime.
Does anyone know if any other statements were made that I missed?
1) Endeavour recognizes Tomura's manevourability in the air and his superhuman jumps as being "Just like... [All Might]". No mention is made on whether he's referring to weakened or prime All Might.
2) Dr. Garaki claims that Tomura is "not quite on par with All Might, sadly." No mention is made on whether he's referring to weakened or prime All Might.
3) Endeavour claims that Tomura is "as powerful and sturdy as All Might". No mention is made on whether he's referring to weakened or prime All Might.
4) Tomura warns the heroes against getting too close to him because it'll mean they're "in for an intimate taste of power on par with All Might's." No mention is made on whether he's referring to weakened or prime All Might.
5) Tomura compares himself to All Might in his prime, in terms of toughness/durability. He questions the heroes asking if they think their last attack would have killed All Might in his prime. This is the only time when someone makes an explicit comparison to All Might in his prime.
Does anyone know if any other statements were made that I missed?
- 657
- 546
Jeanists also says Shigaraki has the speed of prime allmight and I think there's one more but I don't remember. Also the hawks one from outside the manga.
- 8,211
- 12,525
- Thread starter
- #273
Jeanist’s statement for his speed and the data book statement that refers to Shigaraki with his growth being as strong as Prime All Might.
- 31,583
- 28,037
Thanks. I knew I was missing something.
6) Jeanist states that Tomura has speed on par with All Might in his prime.
I'll post my main thoughts tomorrow, but what is interesting about this statement is that his assessment of Tomura's speed must come from the first war so Tomura was already comparable to Prime All Might in some aspects even at 75%.
6) Jeanist states that Tomura has speed on par with All Might in his prime.
I'll post my main thoughts tomorrow, but what is interesting about this statement is that his assessment of Tomura's speed must come from the first war so Tomura was already comparable to Prime All Might in some aspects even at 75%.
- 8,211
- 12,525
- Thread starter
- #275
That is an interesting thing to note. We know that Prime AM is wildly faster than 45% Deku, as the comparisons to his Faux 100% show. So idk how 75% Shigaraki would be Prime AM level in speed and not blitz everyone like how Deku did Nagant. Unless they mean he was Prime AM level in speed vs Star?
Spinoirr
He/Him- 16,273
- 9,242
Could be talking about 97% Shigaraki as they bring up his star and Stripes fight
- 16,698
- 12,608
If Shigaraki becomes stronger, that attack would also be stronger.
- 11,363
- 13,481
Considering no one ever noticed All Might was slowing down throughout the years, I highly doubt Jeanist is making this idea up himself.
Jeanist doesn't know anything about Prime All Might, he can only get this information from All Might himself. Just want to make that clear.
We know that Shigaraki during the Star and Stripe fight is stronger. This statement basically says what Shigaraki showed in his fight against Star was greater than what he did in Jaku, where he was compared to All Might by Endeavor and Aizawa. (Aizawa agreed with Endeavor's statement, saying that level of power is all he has)
- 8,211
- 12,525
- Thread starter
- #279
AFO’s vestige also states that Shigaraki’s hatred is blowing away both his and Garaki’s expectations. Shigaraki’s hate makes him stronger, especially with his weird evolving body, and is the basis for basically everything he’s capable of. So the doctor’s initial limit of “not quite All Might” I guess is subject to change considering Shigaraki’s hate just keeps growing and making him stronger than they thought it would.
- 13,330
- 21,304
I think this is misrepresenting the issue given that "PIS" was used rather sparingly, and there's also the fact that whether the gap is 5x or 60x, this issue would still exist, which is why it was brought up. What I'm less of a fan of is honestly being in opposition of this because of the jump just being "too big" - we're shooting for accuracy, not as low numbers as possible. That's not even mentioning the "people have had to resort to saving 'PIS'" part which honestly really feels like an attempt to undermine the counters toward the issues raised.
This isn't to dismiss the legitimate concerns though, hell that's kind of why I'm only leaning toward agreeing instead of completely agreeing. I just think this is starting to reach a point of (likely unintentional) disingenuity that I'd rather we don't reach
Last edited:
- Status
