Dragon Ball Heroes and Xenoverse - Downgrade about statistics

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Saying they used portals is definitely not the safest assumption, and it's also a inaccurate one since it contradicts the very nature of the objects.

Plus, Kid Buu utilized Dabura's technique to open the portals,so how is it tied to the Dragon Balls? Especially when he's never shown to do that pre Dabura absorption

 

[God900]

Are you also fine with that solution then?

Ottavio, Domino, and OwO, me,
and Strym Already agreed in regards AP/cosmology part...

So I think it will probably be good to apply that later..

 

[StrymULTRA]

Saying they used portals is definitely not the safest assumption, and it's also a inaccurate one since it contradicts the very nature of the objects.

We are talking of a real damn big speed rating here, btw.

Just saying they do it with speed because "hey their counterparts which only operate on a planet do it with speed" is not really a good argument, setting is vert different.

Plus, Kid Buu utilized Dabura's technique to open the portals,so how is it tied to the Dragon Balls? Especially when he's never shown to do that pre Dabura absorption

Read above. He still uses those despite accessing another timeline with speed should be much faster.

 

[Quantu]

Whether the DDB's flying through time actually qualifies for immeasurable or not is whatever, I just can't agree with them doing something never done before by ANY Dragon Balls or even hinted at in the Arcade/Manga/Guides

 

[StrymULTRA]

It's not like any Dragon Ball does it across space-time either outside of Super Dragon Balls tho, and I am sure (again) that the latter is not counted as Immeasurable here.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

We are talking of a real damn big speed rating here, btw.

Just saying they do it with speed because "hey their counterparts which only operate on a planet do it with speed" is not really a good argument, setting is vert different.

Read above. He still uses those despite accessing another timeline with speed should be much faster.

And we're also talking about accuracy. Ignoring the verse's plot points is far from that.

Using raw speed drains Ki, and it is definitely not faster than just jumping into a portal. Let's be real, at least. DBS Goku uses IT despite having the capability to travel world-wide distances easily, because it's faster and it doesn't drain Ki. Here it's the same thing.

Whether the DDB's flying through time actually qualifies for immeasurable or not is whatever, I just can't agree with them doing something never done before by ANY Dragon Balls or even hinted at in the Arcade/Manga/Guides

This.

 

[Dagoth_OwO]

It's implied they do, given Kid Buu does.

Only after he gained Dabura's power. The holes in space-time created by Buu came from the power of Dabura, which the individual DDB's scale below of, thus they can't perform the feat

Ok? It's only Space-Time hax.

A hax performed through raw power directly. Similarly to the Vice Shout, the wiki doesn't scale it to anyone below Super Buu's raw AP, and since there's direct confirmation that these holes from Buu came from Dabura's raw ki, they can't be scaled to anyone below that level of power

All of this is saying to me "he became stronger". I do not see a point in this. My point is that they still use portals also after getting the DDB.

Also Broly getting powered from also the mask is not really a counter-argument, as nothing says he can do that with only the mask's power.

As I mentioned before, using portals doesn't contradict Immeasurable speed, it's just a matter of convenience. Broly knocking Paragus to a portal seems the most convenient option, considering he got in the way of his fight against Goku. As for the Mask, I only brought it up since we don't really know strong Dark Broly is with only a DDB so using him for portal stuff when he has a mask is something I disagree with.

Not showing portals =/= not using them at all. They went to the other timelines off screen, we just saw them start to fly.

The problem is that the proof for them using portals is already lacking. When considering how there's practically zero implications to it, plus the pretty clear statements of them flying away, the notion that they used portals is unlikely

They could just fly to the place after getting the power, but they did not. When a feat happens off screen, you use just the safest assumption, and say they use portals as well.

Flying beyond space-time can just really mean also they used also teleportation or another to reach those once they reached a certain speed.

Nothing says they do with speed, really.

The safest assumption in this case would be physical flight, due to the Dragon Ball's nature. As I've mentioned before, even the Super DB's use physical flight to travel across space-times instead of portals. Where's the evidence that the DDB's are an exception?

 

[ImmortalDread]

I am not convinced with the last comment of you @Dagoth_OwO, there is no evidence of them doing it physically. Even if it is “DB Nature”.

 

[Quantu]

Yeah because on Earth the Dragon Balls do not need a portal, a planet is not a multiverse..

Again, until you explicitly prove these Dragon Balls function different when scatterring, with hard evidence, the safest assumption is that they function exactly the same as the others.

 

[Aachintya31]

. As I've mentioned before, even the Super DB's use physical flight to travel across space-times instead of portals. Where's the evidence that the DDB's are an exception?

Why is it not immeasurable speed in Super then?

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

I am not convinced with the last comment of you @Dagoth_OwO, there is no evidence of them doing it physically. Even if it is “DB Nature”.

It's fine if you're not convinced. I honestly can't agree with you here though,since there's 0 evidence of the Dark Dragon Balls functioning differently from the other DBs,and them using portals.

 

[Dagoth_OwO]

Why is it not immeasurable speed in Super then?

They traveled to other space-times, while the DDB's transcended time to different eras. I brought up the SDB's only because they too don't use portals for flight

 

[Aachintya31]

It's fine if you're not convinced

Lol .

 

[Aachintya31]

They traveled to other space-times, while the DDB's transcended time to different eras. I brought up the SDB's only because they too don't use portals for flight

I see. People disregarding immeasurable speed are comitting occam's razor fallacy.

 

[Dagoth_OwO]

I am not convinced with the last comment of you @Dagoth_OwO, there is no evidence of them doing it physically. Even if it is “DB Nature”.

Then we'll just have to agree to disagree then regarding this feat. Imo I simply find it more unlikely that they used portals.

 

[StrymULTRA]

They traveled to other space-times, while the DDB's transcended time to different eras. I brought up the SDB's only because they too don't use portals for flight

They're literally the same thing though.

 

[ImmortalDread]

So it is not setting, it is just assumption that they unlikely use portals?

 

[Quantu]

It is an assumption that they DO use portals because the side making that claim hasn't brought forward any evidence to support that claim other than the use of portals from characters, which Dagoth talked about already.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Since it is an assumption, y'all would agree with possibly rating?

 

[Quantu]

Hold the phone, there's still the small matter of whether them using pure speed to fly to different eras even qualifies for Immeasurable in the first place, which is what I'm more interested about.

 

[Dagoth_OwO]

They're literally the same thing though.

They're not. Traveling to another universe/spacetime=/=traveling to a different point in time/timeline in DB. You need actual Time Travel to travel to a separate timeline in DB, like with the Future Trunks shenanigans.

 

[Dagoth_OwO]

Also, I haven't brought up the two other feats....

 

[MrHazama]

So this is an indication that XenoVerse and Heroes are not as broken as we thought AP-wise?

 

[StrymULTRA]

They're not. Traveling to another universe/spacetime=/=traveling to a different point in time/timeline in DB. You need actual Time Travel to travel to a separate timeline in DB, like with the Future Trunks shenanigans.

Traveling to something separated from space time from the starting location through speed has always been Immeasurable speed, no matter the verse tho.

 

[God900]

So this is an indication that XenoVerse and Heroes are not as broken as we thought AP-wise?

No, we already settled this, they keep their ratings, just with different justifications...

 

[MrHazama]

Gotcha

 

[Dagoth_OwO]

Traveling to something separated from space time from the starting location through speed has always been Immeasurable speed, no matter the verse tho.

Fairly certain that this is not the case.

Crossing between Universes and Higher Dimensions​

Speed isn't defined by any number of spatial dimensions but simply distance over time. Meaning that it is possible for 1-dimensional characters to be faster than those who cover many dimensions. And the distance between two timelines is defined as the 5th dimension (Or a 4th spatial dimension) that separates two or more universes. Said distance is often unknown as it could be anywhere between much smaller than the Universal radius and infinite. But such details are only known to those who can travel through additional spatial dimensions. For that reason, crossing Universes is unquantifiable for speed unless details are specifically stated.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Traveling to something separated from space time from the starting location through speed has always been Immeasurable speed, no matter the verse tho.

No, it is not.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Replying later about this, I meant a whole different thing.

 

[Antvasima]

Quantu seemed to make sense to me above.

 

[StrymULTRA]

What I meant is that is still crossing through space and time, given that in DBS universes are different space-times as much as different timelines are.

Though I'd need @DarkDragonMedeus for a confirm, as they are knowledgeable about both Speed standards and DBS.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

What I meant is that is still crossing through space and time, given that in DBS universes are different space-times as much as different timelines are.

Though I'd need @DarkDragonMedeus for a confirm, as they are knowledgeable about both Speed standards and DBS.

if this indeed proves whis would achieve immeasurable speed?

 

[Tripleaccel555]

 

[Antvasima]

What I meant is that is still crossing through space and time, given that in DBS universes are different space-times as much as different timelines are.

Though I'd need @DarkDragonMedeus for a confirm, as they are knowledgeable about both Speed standards and DBS.

@DarkDragonMedeus

 

[Quasar002]

So we'll have a multiversal low demigra key, interesting.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Dagoth seems to have brought up points for Immeasurable speed if there are character who have shown being able to move forward and backward in time via sheer Ki flight.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Dagoth seems to have brought up points for Immeasurable speed if there are character who have shown being able to move forward and backward in time via sheer Ki flight.

It's not Ki Flight though.

It's Dark Dragon Balls "flying" beyond space time to other timelines, a bit like Super Dragon Balls of DBS go to Universe 6/7 which are other space-times.

 

[Peak]

thas the issue of Hit hax still working been addressed?

 

[Dagoth_OwO]

Dagoth seems to have brought up points for Immeasurable speed if there are character who have shown being able to move forward and backward in time via sheer Ki flight.

Yes, the DDB's flew beyond space-time to different eras in the past and timelines.

It's Dark Dragon Balls "flying" beyond space time to other timelines, a bit like Super Dragon Balls of DBS go to Universe 6/7 which are other space-times.

Not exactly. The DDB's didn't simply just go to other space-times, they went to different points in the past entirely, as even shown when Towa killed a past version of Goku in the Xeno Janemba timeline/era. The DDB's didn't just travel to other space-times, they also traveled to the very past of those space-times

 

[Dagoth_OwO]

thas the issue of Hit hax still working been addressed?

Hit's Time-Skip working on these characters is not an anti-feat for Immeasurable speed, it's a feat for Hit's reactive evolution & accelerated development which is arguably superior to his "canon" self, considering his Time-Skip now works on opponents faaaaar stronger than U6 Arc SSJB Kaioken x10 Goku who could move in Hit's Time-Skip and the heavily suppressed Jiren in the ToP who no-diffed Hit's Time Prison/Restraint like Mecha Zamasu, Super Hearts, Vidro and even Ultimate Godslayer Hearts for a short while. His Time-Skip has definitely grown a lot stronger