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Dragon Ball Heroes and Xenoverse - Downgrade about statistics

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OK THE NEW AP DESCRIPTIONS ARE HERE.

Demigra:

Keys involved: Demon God (Xenoverse) | Demon God with Tokitoki Absorbed (Xenoverse) | Alternate Timeline (Xenoverse)

At least Multi-Solar System level (A mere mirage of Demigra which contains only a fraction of his true power should still at least be comparable to Xenoverse 1 Mira, as he could fight against the Future Warrior during the Majin Buu Saga) | Low Multiverse level (Became stronger after absorbing Tokitoki, who can lay eggs that hatch into an entire timeline made of 12 to 18 universes and control time, with Demigra claiming to be able to do so as well, other than being able to create his own history after erasing all the others through the destruction of the Time Vault. Can become stronger by transforming into his Final Form), Multiverse level+ through Environmental Destruction (From destroying the Time Vault, a place where the flow of time gathers, he was about to destroy every timeline and history, which includes an infinite amount of timelines) | Multiverse level+ (Was able to fight against the Future Warrior alongside Xenoverse Dabura, who is much stronger than his canon counterpart after absorbing the Damage Energy gathered from the changes to the timeline)

Chronoa:

Keys involved: Xenoverse (Pre-Training) | Xenoverse (Post-Training)

Solar System level physically (As a Supreme Kai, she should be at least comparable to Toeiverse Shin, who is stronger than the likes of Cooler), Multiverse level+ through Environmental Destruction (If Chronoa dies, the whole world would be destroyed along with the Time Nest, with "world" being Tokitoki/Conton City in context, with the destruction of the Time Nest, a place where the flow of time gathers, causing the end of all the infinite timelines) | Multiverse level+ (After returning to train, she was able to hold her own against a Post-Infinite History Saga Future Warrior, though she still has lost against them), Multiverse level+ through Environmental Destruction

Future Trunks (Xeno): (I am deleting the "End of Xenoverse 1" part, he could not fight against FW1 without Demigra's boost after all. Also his XV1 key should not scale to Mira at all, unless you think FW1 was stronger than SSJ3 Goku already in Cell Saga)

Keys involved: Xenoverse 1 | Xenoverse 2

At least Solar System level, likely higher (Implied to be stronger than Towa and was able to fight against a supressed Mira. Should be stronger than his Toeiverse self, who could hold his own against a Cell Jr.) | Multiverse level+ (Immensely stronger than before after training for 2 years. Fought alongside the Future Warrior against both Time Breaker Bardock and Mira)

Future Warrior:

Keys involved: God of Destruction Beerus/Demon God Demigra/GT Saga | Xenoverse 2

Low Multiverse level (Defeated Demigra, either from themselves or with the help of God Ki SSJ3 Xenoverse Goku. Alongside Xenoverse SSJ4 Gogeta, they were able to defeat Golden Great Ape Baby, Super 17 and Omega Shenron, all of them being powered from Demigra's wormhole) | Multiverse level+ (Became immensely stronger after training for 2 years. Fought against Xenoverse 2 Future Trunks and the Future Warrior while being under Towa's mind control)

Future Warrior (Xenoverse 2): (Merged the BoG/RoF and Demon Keys, they had 0 reasons to be separated, FW2 did not get such a boost between these events to grant them another key)

Keys involved: Battle of Gods/Resurrection F/Demon Saga | Future Trunks/Infinite History Saga

Multiverse level+ (Fought against both Time Breaker Bardock and Mira several times. Was able to hold their own against an enraged Xenoverse Beerus, though they needed Whis' help. Was ultimately able to kill Final Form Mira, either from themselves or with the help of SSJ Blue Xenoverse Goku) | Multiverse level+ (Has fought with Grotesque Fusion Zamasu, a brainwashed Jiren, Dabura [after he increased his power via Damage Energy] and Fu's illusion. Matched Ultra Instinct Goku after receiving energy from Fu)

Mira: (Toei Goku is now 4-A)

Keys involved: Xenoverse 1 | Xenoverse 2

At least Multi-Solar System level (After seeing both Toeiverse SSJ3 Goku and Innocent Buu, he was still confident in quickly defeating both of them, with Future Trunks being seriously concerned about Mira facing either Goku or Buu) | Multiverse level+ (Stronger than before to the point that if his core loses the control on his energy, the explosion would be so powerful that not even Towa would be able to escape from it, despite being able to travel to any of the infinite timelines or even the Crack of Time, a place which is both between the timelines and outside of them, needing instead to fight Mira alongside the Future Warrior. After absorbing both Towa and Tokitoki's egg, with the latter being able to hatch into an entire timeline made of 12 to 18 universes and granting the power to govern over space-time, he has reached his Final Form, becoming so strong that Xenoverse Future Trunks has claimed that his power is so high that it shouldn't even exist)

Towa and Fu: Both are fine, though Towa should upscale from Cooler instead of Frieza tbf.

Tokitoki (remove also the "can manipulate all the timelines mumbo jumbo" from his P&A, btw)

Key involved: Xenoverse 1

Low Multiverse level (Controls time, and can lay eggs which can hatch into an entire timeline made of 12 to 18 universes and grant the power to govern over space-time to who is their possession)

-----

Xenoverse Beerus (if he is made)

Multiverse level+ (Stated to be able to destroy the entire history, which includes all the infinite timelines. Fought against the Future Warrior, with the latter needing Whis' help to defeat him. Immensely stronger than SSJ Blue Xenoverse Goku, who has aided in the defeat of Final Form Mira alongside the Future Warrior. Superior to Demigra to the point that he does not find him worth to even wake him up from his sleep)

I think I am done with the justifications here. Is there some concern here?
 
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@StrymULTRA add this aswell, to finish the deal with Xenoverse AP:


XV2 Base Goku in infinite History, can fight against Xenoverse Dabura in his base form along our CAC.

He can also fight against Goku black SSR, Zamasu, and the like just in base form, CRAZY

 
God900 said:
@StrymULTRA add this aswell, to finish the deal with Xenoverse AP:


XV2 Base Goku in infinite History, can fight against Xenoverse Dabura in his base form along our CAC.

He can also fight against Goku black SSR, Zamasu, and the like just in base form, CRAZY

Click to expand...

We are not adding Xenoverse Goku though.

Only Beerus.
 
StrymULTRA said:
We are not adding Xenoverse Goku though.

Only Beerus.
Click to expand...
Ok, however, I will do a Sandbox myself for Xenoverse Goku.


So that's why I tell you this.

I will give him a key for his base form where he's 2-A, as he was able to hold his own against FW2, Dabura, Goku black and Zamasu just fine. Just to make things sure.
 
We should also write a note on Demigra's profile to not scale his XV1 Keys from the destruction of the Multiverse with the scans proving he'd die from it, needing to hide in the Crack of Time, while XV2 does as it's a version from another timeline, and thus it's fine to make him 2-A.

Given we are dealing with a popular character in the vs community after all, and we should prevent unnecessary CRTs.
 
StrymULTRA said:
We should also write a note on Demigra's profile to not scale his XV1 Keys from the destruction of the Multiverse with the scans proving he'd die from it, needing to hide in the Crack of Time, while XV2 does as it's a version from another timeline, and thus it's fine to make him 2-A.

Given we are dealing with a popular character in the vs community after all, and we should prevent unnecessary CRTs.
Click to expand...
Prepare one
 
StrymULTRA said:
We should also write a note on Demigra's profile to not scale his XV1 Keys from the destruction of the Multiverse with the scans proving he'd die from it, needing to hide in the Crack of Time, while XV2 does as it's a version from another timeline, and thus it's fine to make him 2-A.

Given we are dealing with a popular character in the vs community after all, and we should prevent unnecessary CRTs.
Click to expand...
I'm fine with that.


Also, what do you think of my base Goku scaling?

I mean, we see both FW2 and Base Goku tired after the fight, overbreathing, and then Fu comes and says that he was surprised that our CAC was able to fight toe to toe with Goku, later on Fu gives our CAC energy to fight MUI Goku.
 
Dread said:
Prepare one
Click to expand...
Should be easy to be fair.

Something like:
God900 said:
Also, what do you think of my base Goku scaling?

I mean, we see both FW2 and Base Goku tired after the fight, overbreathing, and then Fu comes and says that he was surprised that our CAC was able to fight toe to toe with Goku, later on Fu gives our CAC energy to fight MUI Goku.
Click to expand...
I mean... I am quite of netrual, as he'd be "DBS Goku but 2-A" almost in all the parts.

Though remember to include also his XV1 key if you do that.
 
Dread said:
I am here hey!, anyway may I ask a specific question? I am aware it is time travel, is there any proof of doing it through sheer speed?
Click to expand...
Not really, they use portals all the time, even characters powered from the items with the supposed speed.

Plus there's the Hit anti feat.
 
StrymULTRA said:
Not really, they use portals all the time, even characters powered from the items with the supposed speed.

Plus there's the Hit anti feat.
Click to expand...
So it sounds they presented a time travel, and they were travelling it through it?
 
Jinsama said:
What the anti feat?
Click to expand...
Hit's Time Skip works, implying time passes linearly through the fights.



It's not really layered Time Hax, as it literally needs time to flow normally to work.
Dread said:
So it sounds they presented a time travel, and they were travelling it through it?
Click to expand...
Yeah, the "feat" of the Dark Dragon Balls was done off-screen, then on-screen they use just portals/teleportation.
 
StrymULTRA said:
Hit's Time Skip works, implying time passes linearly through the fights.



It's not really layered Time Hax, as it literally needs time to flow normally to work.

Yeah, the "feat" of the Dark Dragon Balls was done off-screen, then on-screen they use just portals/teleportation.
Click to expand...

Then sounds a reasonable downgrade, I asked all questions I wanted.

It is basically a time travel and in backstory it was portals and teleportations, and there is no proof of context or text that it was done through sheer speed.
 
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Anyways, I already mentioned how using portals is not an anti-feat for Immeasurable speed so that's that.

The individual DDB's have no feats of using portals. The holes in space-time created by Xeno Buu to travel through time were explicitly stated by Vegeta to have been opened by the sheer power level of Demon God Buu's Ki attack, making it another Vice Shout situation. It was Demon God Dabura's power that opened those holes in space-time, not the DDB's, and due to the individual DDB's scaling below Demon God Dabura level, they don't even scale to these portal/space-time hole feats in the first place. Base DDB Xeno Buu has never used portals, only Demon God Buu and Demon God Janembuu did with their raw AP.

As for Dark Broly, he was not solely amped by the DDB, he was additionally amped by the Time Breaker Mask which we know amps their users greatly. It's the mask's power that opened that portal, as we don't even know how strong Dark Broly originally is without the Mask.

And as for the DDB's themselves, there's no proof whatsoever that they used portals. They were visually shown to have flown away without any showings of portals, they were stated to have flown away with no mention of portals, and DB's by default use physical flight for traveling - even the Super DB's, the strongest DB's in the verse do it. And as I've addressed the portal feats from Buu and Broly, the individual DDB's have actual zero feats of using portals, as the only two hosts who actually used portals didn't even use the powers of the DDB to do it, nor could they even do it with DDB powers. All the evidence heavily implies physical flight instead of portals.
 
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Eficiente said:
I think anyone can read it and get the idea that time travel in a non-flashy way is Immeasurable speed, especially if it happens many times/many characters do it, the standards that need to be met there are not clear.

"Movement beyond linear time" is clonky worded, as being in a place stated to be outside time doesn't give anything.

It's also so weird that Immeasurable speed exists because "the speed formula cannot be applied" yet moving in Timeless Voids is meaningless due to a factor in the formula being "Not Applicable" (/ "Nonexistent"); Math's not my area, but I would think the page does nothing useful to explain why the speed formula not being able to be applied means the speed has to be "infinite while being able to travel across any point in time", which is not something that even comes from the formula in the first place. It says that "Being able to casually roam around freely across linear time qualifies for immeasurable speed" yet the speed formula can be used there, it's just that the results are bs, which I would not intuitively equalize to Immeasurable speed.
Click to expand...
Thank you for the reply. You should probably ask DontTalkDT about it via private message then.
 
Dagoth_OwO said:
The individual DDB's have no feats of using portals.
Click to expand...
It's implied they do, given Kid Buu does.
Dagoth_OwO said:
The holes in space-time created by Xeno Buu to travel through time were explicitly stated by Vegeta to have been opened by the sheer power level of Demon God Buu's Ki attack, making it another Vice Shout situation.
Click to expand...
Ok? It's only Space-Time hax.
Dagoth_OwO said:
It was Demon God Dabura's power that opened those holes in space-time, not the DDB's, and due to the individual DDB's scaling below Demon God Dabura level, they don't even scale to these portal/space-time hole feats in the first place. Base DDB Xeno Buu has never used portals, only Demon God Buu and Janembuu did with their raw AP.

As for Dark Broly, he was not solely amped by the DDB, he was additionally amped by the Time Breaker Mask which we know amps their users greatly. It's the mask's power that opened that portal, as we don't even know how strong Dark Broly originally is without the Mask.
Click to expand...
All of this is saying to me "he became stronger". I do not see a point in this. My point is that they still use portals also after getting the DDB.

Also Broly getting powered from also the mask is not really a counter-argument, as nothing says he can do that with only the mask's power.
Dagoth_OwO said:
And as for the DDB's themselves, there's no proof whatsoever that they used portals. They were visually shown to have flown away without any showings of portals, they were stated to have flown away with no mention of portals, and DB's by default use physical flight for traveling
Click to expand...
Not showing portals =/= not using them at all. They went to the other timelines off screen, we just saw them start to fly.
Dagoth_OwO said:
And as I've addressed the portal feats from Buu and Broly, the individual DDB's have actual zero feats of using portals, as the only two hosts who actually used portals didn't even use the powers of the DDB to do it, nor could they even do it with DDB powers. All the evidence heavily implies physical flight instead of portals.
Click to expand...
They could just fly to the place after getting the power, but they did not. When a feat happens off screen, you use just the safest assumption, and say they use portals as well.

Flying beyond space-time can just really mean also they used also teleportation or another to reach those once they reached a certain speed.

Nothing says they do with speed, really.
 
Adem_Warlock69 said:
I think the point was that the DDB were never shown to be capable of creating portals since Kid Buu and Broly used their own powers to do so, so the safest assumption would be that they flied there
Click to expand...
As I already said:
  • It happened off-screen, so it's vague
  • Those using a hax is the safest route among all the other showings, instead of assuming they just have used secretely speed.
 
Adem_Warlock69 said:
Also couldn't this be explained by how using a portal would be faster than flying there yourself while you're trying to get away from dudes with speed relative to yours?
Click to expand...
They do also to just travel in that specific timeline in a non-combat situation, so is not really a good point to be fair.
 
Quantu said:
You have to prove that they used portals when it was never shown + no form of Dragon Balls across any media has EVER shown to disperse using portals iirc
Click to expand...
Yeah because on Earth the Dragon Balls do not need a portal, a planet is not a multiverse.

Super Dragon Balls are too vague and I am sure it's not accepted that they fly at immeasurable speed here.
 
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