Dragon Ball Heroes and Xenoverse - Downgrade about statistics

[StrymULTRA]

But that's just for 1 egg? Why would it be a limit to his full power?

TokiToki has 0 feats outside of that. He's not like his Heroes counterpart who has plenty of 2-A statements.

Controlling the space and time of a whole multiverse of infinite worlds would also be AP, its not just range.

Not really, is supportive at best. By itself, the statement is just hax.

Otherwise creating a multiverse wouldn't be anything but a range feat

False equivalence are creating is much better than just manipulating what the ****.

 

[Dagoth_OwO]

I was able to find a compromise in the meantime, as while each Time Scroll has its own maximum amount of scrolls it can take, it's said in XV1 that is the place where the Flow of Time gathers, implying that they are still connected to each other, and this is why if you destroy the Nest, all the timelines go poof.

This can be a good justification imho.

This would work, yes.

 

[StrymULTRA]

This would work, yes.

I guess cosmology stays at 2-A then.

Now we can talk about either the the Xenoverse characters downgrade to 2-C or the Immeasurable speed feats.

I'd prefer the former as a discussion about it started just now.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

TokiToki has 0 feats outside of that. He's not like his Heroes counterpart who has plenty of 2-A statements.

Not really, is supportive at best. By itself, the statement is just hax.

False equivalence are creating is much better than just manipulating what the ****.

Why would having 0 other feats mean anything? Lack of evidence isn't no evidence. I feel like 1 statement of "all space time" should be enough.

Not really, is supportive at best. By itself, the statement is just hax.

Where did I say it wasn't just hax? And why is it just range? Why is creating the multiverse more impressive than warping it all? Controlling the multiverse's space-time would be controlling an infinite number of 4D universes, which is infinitely greater than universal

 

[StrymULTRA]

Why would having 0 other feats mean anything?

You do not give a rating beyond the max feat/statements shown lmao.

Lack of evidence isn't no evidence.

It literally is.

I feel like 1 statement of "all space time" should be enough.

Issue is that, within the context, as also said from Chronoa, it was more about a single universe.

Where did I say it wasn't just hax? And why is it just range? Why is creating the multiverse more impressive than warping it all? Controlling the multiverse's space-time would be controlling an infinite number of 4D universes, which is infinitely greater than universal

Demigra has 0 proof of him being able to manipulate space-time to the point of granting to him a tier. This is not Heaven Dio who was about to totally overwrite the universe. You have to prove the positive about Demigra having a space-time hax this strong, not me.

 

[Dagoth_OwO]

Now we can talk about either the the Xenoverse characters downgrade to 2-C or the Immeasurable speed feats.

I'd prefer the former as a discussion about it started just now.

Sure. I'll take a look at the XV part and try to respond later today.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

You do not give a rating beyond the max feat/statements shown lmao.

It literally is.

Issue is that, within the context, as also said from Chronoa, it was more about a single universe.

Demigra has 0 proof of him being able to manipulate space-time to the point of granting to him a tier. This is not Heaven Dio who was about to totally overwrite the universe. You have to prove the positive about Demigra having a space-time hax this strong, not me.

Yeah, the "all space and time statement" would be 2-A. Toki Toki only creating a universe with 1 egg isn't a limit

It literally is.

Not an argument

Issue is that, within the context, as also said from Chronoa, it was more about a single universe.

Chronoa never commented on Demigra saying he has control over all space and time, so Chronoa's statements are irrelevant here. They don't provide context to a sentence said by Demigra

Demigra has 0 proof of him being able to manipulate space-time to the point of granting to him a tier. This is not Heaven Dio who was about to totally overwrite the universe. You have to prove the positive about Demigra having a space-time hax this strong, not me.

???? This is not a refute, just you saying "no". I'll just repeat what I said then
Where did I say it wasn't just hax? And why is it just range? Why is creating the multiverse more impressive than warping it all? Controlling the multiverse's space-time would be controlling an infinite number of 4D universes, which is infinitely greater than universal

 

[TyranoDoom30]

After reading through the doc, i do indeed agree with Strym's arguments

 

[StrymULTRA]

Yeah, the "all space and time statement" would be 2-A.

Said from who? You?

Chronoa never commented on Demigra saying he has control over all space and time, so Chronoa's statements are irrelevant here. They don't provide context to a sentence said by Demigra

She said the universe was in danger and that FW1 saved it from Demigra.

???? This is not a refute, just you saying "no". I'll just repeat what I said then

...

"Why creating a multiverse more impressive than warping it?"

It already answers by itself. Just a vague statement of him manipulating space-time is not equal to creating it, which is treated as equally impressive as destruction here.

Yes, hax can be used as a way to determine AP, however as said in the Tiering System page:

Significantly affect" is here used as an umbrella term for feats that don't involve direct creation or destruction but are comparable to them in power, such as warping and distorting the entirety of the structure in question, sustaining its existence with one's own

Demigra has 0 proofs of him being able to do that anyways, even if he can affect the whole multiverse (which is not true).

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Said from who? You?

She said the universe was in danger and that FW1 saved it from Demigra.

...

"Why creating a multiverse more impressive than warping it?"

It already answers by itself. Just a vague statement of him manipulating space-time is not equal to creating it, which is treated as equally impressive as destruction here.

Yes, hax can be used as a way to determine AP, however as said in the Tiering System page:

Significantly affect" is here used as an umbrella term for feats that don't involve direct creation or destruction but are comparable to them in power, such as warping and distorting the entirety of the structure in question, sustaining its existence with one's own

Demigra has 0 proofs of him being able to do that anyways, even if he can affect the whole multiverse (which is not true).

She said the universe was in danger and that FW1 saved it from Demigra.

Endangering the universe doesn't mean Demigra can only endanger the universe

Significantly affect" is here used as an umbrella term for feats that don't involve direct creation or destruction but are comparable to them in power, such as warping and distorting the entirety of the structure in question, sustaining its existence with one's own

You literally just posted evidence that warping the space time of an infinite multiverse is enough evidence

 

[StrymULTRA]

You literally just posted evidence that warping the space time of an infinite multiverse is enough evidence

But Demigra does not warp the space-time on that much level of depth.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

Talking about Xenoverse AP.

For starters....

Well, I have contentions regarding Towa's statement in regards Mira's explosion.

I don't think is taken out of context, in the doc it says that the full conversation was cropped, well, even the full conversation doesn't neg it completely and here is why:


Towa: "Oh no...he can't hear me. If he doesn't stop, his core will overload and destroy the universe!"

Towa: "Maybe I should run. No, there is no telling how large the explosion might be."


Towa: "If it's able to tear through dimensions and break through this egg, then...!"


Towa: "...we're poached"


Towa: "You there! If you don't stop Mira soon, we'll go up in smoke!"


Towa: "I'll lend you my aid! Just hurry and put an end to Mira's recklessness!"


Ok...

Towa said that if Mira keeped increasing his ki, he would explode and the Universe would be gone.
However, then later she hypothecases that there is no telling how large the explosion would be, and thus she starts thinking it could break through dimensions and destroy the egg.

Then later on she ask our patroller for help and stop Mira, becouse if not "we'll all go up to smoke".
She says there is no telling how long the explosion might be, but she instead of running away from the Battlefield, is asking our patroller to fight Mira.

Which implies that Towa running away might not've saved her.

If she was too sure we all would "go up to smoke" after Mira's explosion, and was so desesperate that she asked our patroller for help, means that later after making her hipothesis the explosions would indeed reach her, even her being in a parallel dimension.


To sum up, and to make it clear.....mind you that obviously...., there is a context as of why the Game devealopers/the authors wanted to make that dialogue and made it seen this way.

 

[Quantu]

So 2-A Cosmology + Heroes stays, the topic is Immeasurable Speed Heroes and Xenoverse tiering?

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

So 2-A Cosmology + Heroes stays, the topic is Immeasurable Speed Heroes and Xenoverse tiering?

Yes

 

[StrymULTRA]

Ok...

Towa said that if Mira keeped increasing his ki, he would explode and the Universe would be gone.
However, then later she hypothecases that there is no telling how large the explosion would be, and thus she starts thinking it could break through dimensions and destroy the egg.

Then later on she ask our patroller for help and stop Mira, becouse if not "we'll all go up to smoke".
She says there is no telling how long the explosion might be, but she instead of running away from the Battlefield, is asking our patroller to fight Mira.

Which implies that Towa running away might not've saved her.

If she was too sure we all would "go up to smoke" after Mira's explosion, and was so desesperate that she asked our patroller for help, means that later after making her hipothesis the explosions would indeed reach her, even her being in a parallel dimension.


To sum up, and to make it clear.....mind you that obviously...., there is a context as of why the Game devealopers/the authors wanted to make that dialogue and made it seen this way.

There is an issue here. Towa still did not say for certain that the explosion would cover every single timeline in existence.

She has never said that no timeline is safe. Heck the reason why she helped the FW was only to get back control on Mira before anything, not because "she realized that she cannot ourun him", she just wanted to take the route with the least amount of risks.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

There is an issue here. Towa still did not say for certain that the explosion would cover every single timeline in existence.

She has never said that no timeline is safe. Heck the reason why she helped the FW was only to get back control on Mira before anything, not because "she realized that she cannot ourun him", she just wanted to take the route with the least amount of risks.

Of course it was her hypothesis.

However, she could just have try luck and move to a parallel Timeline/dimension far away from the one they were fighting (as she moves through dimensions pretty quick).

The issue here, is that instead she decided to stay, implying she changed her mind and was almost sure that the explosion would reach her wherever she escaped to.
Even she said that if we didn't stop Mira all of us would turn into "smoke"....
Imploring our CAC to help her stop her creation.




And mind you, there is a reason as of why the Game devealopers/the author of the game, portrayed the dialogue that way, and as of why Towa didn't decide to run away from the battlefield.
That's like implying that would be the case of Towa decided to take the opposite path of actions.


If this wasn't true, if she was so sure that she could escape Mira's explosion, given how the cosomolgy is infinite, then she could just have try to move to many of the Infinite timelines that exist far away from the main one they were fighting.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

But Demigra does not warp the space-time on that much level of depth.

" such as warping and distorting the entirety of the structure in question"

And demigra can warp all space-time, the entirety of the structure

 

[StrymULTRA]

" such as warping and distorting the entirety of the structure in question"

And demigra can warp all space-time, the entirety of the structure

Not to the degree of 2-A AP though, otherwise over 50% of space time users get Tier 2 here.

Of course it was her hypothesis.

However, she could just have try luck and move to a parallel Timeline/dimension far away from the one they were fighting (as she moves through dimensions pretty quick).

The issue here, is that instead she decided to stay, implying she changed her mind and was almost sure that the explosion would reach her wherever she escaped to.
Even she said that if we didn't stop Mira all of us would turn into "smoke"....
Imploring our CAC to help her stop her creation.




And mind you, there is a reason as of why the Game devealopers/the author of the game, portrayed the dialogue that way, and as of why Towa didn't decide to run away from the battlefield.
That's like implying that would be the case of Towa decided to take the opposite path of actions.


If this wasn't true, if she was so sure that she could escape Mira's explosion, given how the cosomolgy is infinite, then she could just have try to move to many of the Infinite timelines that exist far away from the main one they were fighting.

Let me ask a question.

What says to us that the explosion simply wouldn't be so fast that Towa wouldn't be able to escape in time? Because she may be able to out range the explosion, but if she's not fast enough, it's quite worthless, so she simply fought with the CaC against Mira as the simplest option.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Let me ask a question.

What says to us that the explosion simply wouldn't be so fast that Towa wouldn't be able to escape in time? Because she may be able to out range the explosion, but if she's not fast enough, it's quite worthless, so she simply fought with the CaC against Mira as the simplest option.

She could've opened a portal to the CoT immediately. She didn't do that because she was afraid the explosion might've been too big.

Towa should definitely know what Mira's limitator can or can't handle.

 

[Roun12]

I want to make a quick comment regarding the "Demigra will die too" thing. The line isn't quite the same in the Japanese version.


The relevant quotes are:
Chronoa:
"なにしてるのよ!!
そんなことしたらあなただってただじゃすまないわ!
刻蔵庫が壊れれば すべてが! なにもかもが消えてしまうのよ!!!"
"Nani shi teru no yo!!
Son'na ko to shitara anata datte tada ja sumanai wa!
Koku zō-ko ga kowarereba subete ga! Nanimokamo ga kiete shimau no yo!!!"

A bit rough, but: "What are you doing!? If you do that, even you'll be sorry! If the Time Vault is destroyed, everything will be gone!"
Chronoa just says that Demigra will be sorry (as in a way signifying regret) instead of saying he will die from it. Which makes sense considering he wants to rule over existence but can't do that if there is no existence.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Not to the degree of 2-A AP though, otherwise over 50% of space time users get Tier 2 here.

Those profiles would just be outdated

 

[StrymULTRA]

She could've opened a portal to the CoT immediately. She didn't do that because she was afraid the explosion might've been too big.

Towa should definitely know what Mira's limitator can or can't handle.

The CoT was destroyed after XV1 though?

I want to make a quick comment regarding the "Demigra will die too" thing. The line isn't quite the same in the Japanese version.


The relevant quotes are:
Chronoa:
"なにしてるのよ!!
そんなことしたらあなただってただじゃすまないわ!
刻蔵庫が壊れれば すべてが! なにもかもが消えてしまうのよ!!!"
"Nani shi teru no yo!!
Son'na ko to shitara anata datte tada ja sumanai wa!
Koku zō-ko ga kowarereba subete ga! Nanimokamo ga kiete shimau no yo!!!"

A bit rough, but: "What are you doing!? If you do that, even you'll be sorry! If the Time Vault is destroyed, everything will be gone!"
Chronoa just says that Demigra will be sorry (as in a way signifying regret) instead of saying he will die from it. Which makes sense considering he wants to rule over existence but can't do that if there is no existence.

Mmmh, I'll check on it later, a bit busy rn.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

I want to make a quick comment regarding the "Demigra will die too" thing. The line isn't quite the same in the Japanese version.


The relevant quotes are:
Chronoa:
"なにしてるのよ!!
そんなことしたらあなただってただじゃすまないわ!
刻蔵庫が壊れれば すべてが! なにもかもが消えてしまうのよ!!!"
"Nani shi teru no yo!!
Son'na ko to shitara anata datte tada ja sumanai wa!
Koku zō-ko ga kowarereba subete ga! Nanimokamo ga kiete shimau no yo!!!"

A bit rough, but: "What are you doing!? If you do that, even you'll be sorry! If the Time Vault is destroyed, everything will be gone!"
Chronoa just says that Demigra will be sorry (as in a way signifying regret) instead of saying he will die from it. Which makes sense considering he wants to rule over existence but can't do that if there is no existence.

If this is true, then Demigra dying can't be used as an anti feat, but Demigra still won't have evidence of having striking power or durability that scales to all timelines

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I want to make a quick comment regarding the "Demigra will die too" thing. The line isn't quite the same in the Japanese version.


The relevant quotes are:
Chronoa:
"なにしてるのよ!!
そんなことしたらあなただってただじゃすまないわ!
刻蔵庫が壊れれば すべてが! なにもかもが消えてしまうのよ!!!"
"Nani shi teru no yo!!
Son'na ko to shitara anata datte tada ja sumanai wa!
Koku zō-ko ga kowarereba subete ga! Nanimokamo ga kiete shimau no yo!!!"

A bit rough, but: "What are you doing!? If you do that, even you'll be sorry! If the Time Vault is destroyed, everything will be gone!"
Chronoa just says that Demigra will be sorry (as in a way signifying regret) instead of saying he will die from it. Which makes sense considering he wants to rule over existence but can't do that if there is no existence.

Since this is a rough version, it probably wouldn’t hurt to get a site translator to look at it.

 

[Worthless]

A bit rough, but: "What are you doing!? If you do that, even you'll be sorry! If the Time Vault is destroyed, everything will be gone!"
Chronoa just says that Demigra will be sorry (as in a way signifying regret)

Is not that just an alternative way of saying "If you do that, even you will die/hurt as well!" on top of that the official translation also confirmed it to be the case ,and the deepL also said something similar but... if we take that statement literally then i don't understand why he would feel sorry about it... is not he a villain?

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

The CoT was destroyed after XV1 though?

Nah, even FU and Dabura could acces it whenever they wanted to in Infinite history.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Nah, even FU and Dabura could acces it whenever they wanted to in Infinite history.

I mean, it was violently shaking and all of that, it was even collapsing.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

Is not that just an alternative way of saying "If you do that, even you will die/hurt as well!" on top of that the official translation also confirmed it to be the case ,and the deepL also said something similar but... if we take that statement literally then i don't understand why he would feel sorry about it... is not he a villain?

No, it could just mean that he won't have anything to reign over.

However, after the Supreme Kai says that, Demigra laughs and says that he will create his own world which he will reign.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

I mean, it was violently shaking and all of that, it was even collapsing.

Yes, but the crack of time in Xenoverse 2 still appears

 

[StrymULTRA]

No, it could just mean that he won't have anything to reign.

However, after the Supreme Kai says that, Demigra laughs and says that he will create his own world which he will reign.

I think we should take the JP translation of Mira's core feat as well, just to be sure too.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

I think we should take the JP translation of Mira's core feat as well, just to be sure too.

Yeah that too

 

[StrymULTRA]

This is Demigra's whole thing



Collecting later Mira's scans.

 

[Worthless]

No, it could just mean that he won't have anything to reign over.

Base on full context and what she said after that, it's more leading to getting hurt/die than what you've said...

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

I mean, it was violently shaking and all of that, it was even collapsing.

Also, a note, after the fight against Dabura in infinite History, we get a preview of what happened to him in DLC 14, where Dabura is turned into stone, floating through the vast space of the COT.

So even after the fight our CAC had against Demigra, and against MUI Goku, the place was still there.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

Base on full context and what she said after that, it's more leading to getting hurt/die than what you've said...

No, how can he die after blowing up the Multiverse and then saying he will recreate it when hes dead?

In that raw there nothing with a reference to the word "dying" and thus saying that would only lead us to more heavy speculation.

We just need a correct version of the raws, as Strym's says, otherwise we will be going on circles

 

[StrymULTRA]

Also, a note, after the fight against Dabura in infinite History, we get a preview of what happened to him in DLC 14, where Dabura is turned into stone, floating through the vast space of the COT.

So even after the fight our CAC had against Demigra, and against MUI Goku, the place was still there.

So the place only seemed to be destroyed.

Regardless, I took the raws of Mira's statement as well.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

So the place only seemed to be destroyed.

Yes, It was still there in later DLCS (somehow) so it seems that that place has really strong durability.

Regardless, I took the raws of Mira's statement as well.

Fine

 

[Worthless]

No, how can he die after blowing up the Multiverse and then saying he will recreate it when hes dead?

The OP already explained as to how he would survive from it and it's by hiding outside of the multiverse:

"Demigra explicitly needs to destroy the Time Vault to destroy the multiverse and cannot survive its destruction (3:17:11 to 3:17:44) and even needs to hide in the Crack of Time, which is a place outside the multiverse and the dimension of time (2:06:38 to 2:07:16)."

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

The OP already explained as to how he would survive from it and it's by hiding outside of the multiverse:

"Demigra explicitly needs to destroy the Time Vault to destroy the multiverse and cannot survive its destruction (3:17:11 to 3:17:44) and even needs to hide in the Crack of Time, which is a place outside the multiverse and the dimension of time (2:06:38 to 2:07:16)."

We just need a correct version of the raws, as Strym's says, otherwise we will be going on circles

 

[Worthless]

I don't get why that matters in what we are currently talking about... what if their translation about it is the same to Google TL?