Yogiri Takatou and Aoi Hayanose, mostly others that get scaled to Plot Manipulation downgrade to Fate Manipulation.

[ImmortalDread]

Sometimes, complicating something is useful tho, and i'spose he's not wrong

Not to the point he nitpicks it. But I will stop from here.

 

[Abstractly_a_Protagonist]

I'm just going to drop this for now.

The statement from manga read as this:

そんな者を相手に 運命だの筋書きだの 戯れ言にもならない

DeepL:
And with someone like that, there's no such thing as fate, no such thing as a plot, no such thing as a joke.

Google Translation:
With someone like that, it's not even a joke about fate or plot

The statement clearly talks about both plot and fate.
You can try getting someone fluent in japanese to manual translate that.

That's all for now, busy for quite a while.

 

[ImmortalDread]

そんな者を相手に 運命だの筋書きだの 戯れ言にもならない

Here is the raw text. Don't tell me it is < LN or anything. It is official, and the translation is official, and it is being human translated as plot.

 

[ImmortalDread]

And check this thread to understand better.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/neechan-revision.139006/

 

[Mr._Undetected]

Not to the point he nitpicks it

Welp, I won't get involved in that

But I will stop from here.

Sure Dread, do what you want to do

 

[EinelRendezvous]

Take it easy all of you guys using machine translation and interpreting thing to go as you way. I bought the official translation again from Jnovels, and it's literally official.

Here it's directly say that a meta that Aoi reffers just a movie metaphor. I don't want any refute by a non-official translation using only a machine translation. Afterall human translation is much better.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Machine translated. Alright, lets do a bet. If we bring you a human translation, you close this thread?

 

[EinelRendezvous]

You are actually making things complicated. “I view this as script”, alone, qualifies.

It's a metaphor. Official translation from Jnovels also translate to it.

Argument from Authority? The scan I brought is official. chapter 26

You don't understand the meaning of un-official and official, the translation you brought is MTL and not officially released. Japanese language is complex, MTL can have some errors.

 

[ImmortalDread]

bro? This is official translation. Wdym MTL? We translated the raw to MTL, this is correct but the official is still same.

 

[EinelRendezvous]

Machine translated. Alright, lets do a bet. If we bring you a human translation, you close this thread?

You bring what? I literally spend money on bought the official TL of Instant Death. You can see my scans above lel. It's official from Jnovels and it said a movie metaphor. Wanna bet? sure, let's see which unofficial site or unofficial translator you'll brought.

 

[Satanichia_Chlammy_Mafahl]

筋書き

This part can be interpreted as Plot, Synopsis, and Outline.

 

[ImmortalDread]

This part can be interpreted as Plot, Synopsis, and Outline.

See? It has nothing to do with fate.

 

[ImmortalDread]

You bring what? I literally spend money on bought the official TL of Instant Death. You can see my scans above lel. It's official from Jnovels and it said a movie metaphor. Wanna bet? sure, let's see which unofficial site or unofficial translator you'll brought.

The thing is that you don't want to accept is that scan is from official manga with official translation.

 

[EinelRendezvous]

bro? This is official translation. Wdym MTL? We translated the raw to MTL, this is correct but the official is still same.

Of course not. MTL have many errors. You are doing it by a very limited knowledge. There are many articles that prove MTL is so wrong compared to the official translation, and here's the example. https://www.abroadinjapan.com/content-355-why-google-translate-fails-at-japanese

See? It has nothing to do with fate.

You should understand what he try to say, it can mean as an outline. It doesn't need to correlate to our definition of fate.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Of course not. MTL have many errors. You are doing it by a very limited knowledge. There are many articles that prove MTL is so wrong compared to the official translation, and here's the example. https://www.abroadinjapan.com/content-355-why-google-translate-fails-at-japanese

This is still the official translation. We only did MTL to raw one. (I said this 3 times right now). And sure, we can bring human translation for raw one, but I doubt it will be different.

You should understand what he try to say, it can mean as an outline. It doesn't need to correlate to our definition of fate.

No way, you are playing this game with me.

 

[Abstractly_a_Protagonist]

Take it easy all of you guys using machine translation and interpreting thing to go as you way. I bought the official translation again from Jnovels, and it's literally official.

And those are official manga scan.
Both are official, the manga and the light novel.

What I'm proposing here is that the manga did say plot.
And if you don't believe it, then why not let us bring the statement to someone who can speak japanese then?

This part can be interpreted as Plot, Synopsis, and Outline.

Yes, but knowing the context. Why would Aoi remarked Yogiri as:

1. Fate and Synopsis are less than joke
or
2. Fate and Outline are less than joke

If we substitute plot from the line and change it to either synopsis or outline, then it doesn't make sense.
Now considering that Aoi and Hanakawa was talking about Meta-story previously which you propose are merely "metaphor," yet she did remark it by saying the term plot later on.

 

[ImmortalDread]

I disagree with thread with the reasons I stated and same as @Overlord_THE_END
You are saying they are metaphorical, but yet there are multiple statements containing metafictional elements.

Don't play the game and say it means “others”. The context is referring to that. The verse is known powerful, and the author involved this type of hax.

 

[EinelRendezvous]

The thing is that you don't want to accept is that scan is from official manga with official translation.

Official translation is any translation that has been formally approved by the company that published it, or by another official agency.

Fan translations are done by fans, usually when there isn't an official translation. Fan translations can be worse than official translations, depending on the quality of the translator. An official translation is a translation that has been authorized by the copyright holder. Usually, an official translation will be the most accurate and faithful translation, since it's been authorized by the copyright holder.

A fan translation is a translation that's been made by fans, without the authorization of the copyright holder. Fan translations are usually not as accurate or faithful to the original work as official translations, since they're made by fans and not by the copyright holder.

In this case we have an official translation and I literally bought it from yen-press and jnovels. We don't need an MTL translation lel.

This is still the official translation. We only did MTL to raw one. (I said this 3 times right now). And sure, we can bring human translation for raw one, but I doubt it will be different.

No, it's not. 2 Official sources that I bought literally tell it as a metaphor. Why are you so tryhard? Bro, you're complicating yourself.

No way, you are playing this game with me.

No. You need a better reading compherension, because he tells no disagreement not agreement, he just mentions the plurality of japanese words that can be many thing, and that's why MTL is uncertain.

And those are official manga scan.
Both are official, the manga and the light novel.

Do as my scans, it's literally official.

What I'm proposing here is that the manga did say plot.
And if you don't believe it, then why not let us bring the statement to someone who can speak japanese then?

Light Novel is what the original sources. And the manga you translate could be different because you MTL it. If you bring such person, I have a person that from japanese too man. I'm confident enough about my claim.

Yes, but knowing the context. Why would Aoi remarked Yogiri as:

1. Fate and Synopsis are less than joke
or
2. Fate and Outline are less than joke

If we substitute plot from the line and change it to either synopsis or outline, then it doesn't make sense.
Now considering that Aoi and Hanakawa was talking about Meta-story previously which you propose are merely "metaphor," yet she did remark it by saying the term plot later on.

You clearly don't read my post eh? it's because Aoi's ability getting overwhelmed. Are you ignoring the fact where Aoi explains to herself that she can't erase a monster because of a difference in power terms? that's enough to claim it's not PM.

 

[EinelRendezvous]

Bro, the context here literally shows us about Aoi's precognition to see the fates future. Not because she sees them as a fictional. She have many witnesses. And your rebuttal means nothing because it's unofficial. Don't joke at a guy who spend the money for Official TL, and you literally disgrace it by using MTL and claim your scans > mine, because the official that I bought differents than your interpretation. Bro, you're tryhard and doing false dicothomy fallacy right now.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Official translation is any translation that has been formally approved by the company that published it, or by another official agency.

Fan translations are done by fans, usually when there isn't an official translation. Fan translations can be worse than official translations, depending on the quality of the translator. An official translation is a translation that has been authorized by the copyright holder. Usually, an official translation will be the most accurate and faithful translation, since it's been authorized by the copyright holder.

A fan translation is a translation that's been made by fans, without the authorization of the copyright holder. Fan translations are usually not as accurate or faithful to the original work as official translations, since they're made by fans and not by the copyright holder.

In this case we have an official translation and I literally bought it from yen-press and jnovels. We don't need an MTL translation lel.

No, it's not. 2 Official sources that I bought literally tell it as a metaphor. Why are you so tryhard? Bro, you're complicating yourself.


No. You need a better reading compherension, because he tells no disagreement not agreement, he just mentions the plurality of japanese words that can be many thing, and that's why MTL is uncertain.


Do as my scans, it's literally official.


Light Novel is what the original sources. And the manga you translate could be different because you MTL it. If you bring such person, I have a person that from japanese too man. I'm confident enough about my claim.


You clearly don't read my post eh? it's because Aoi's ability getting overwhelmed. Are you ignoring the fact where Aoi explains to herself that she can't erase a monster because of a difference in power terms? that's enough to claim it's not PM.

Bruh moment, you are saying your translation is more valued than actual translators? I give up.

 

[ImmortalDread]

We never brought any fan translation. We brought official translation with official sources.
You can even bring human translation, and it won't change the fact.

 

[EinelRendezvous]

Bruh moment, you are saying your translation is more valued than actual translators? I give up.

Yes, it's authorized by official translates and official publisher. While your scans here not.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Mate, the end of the game. The scans explicitly stated fate and plot AS SEPARATE. I disagree with the thread.
I brought official translation and official scans. Your own translation is irrelevant. I brought you raw scans, and you can see that the other two terms will make no sense. The other supporting statements are proof of metafictional elements' involvement.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Yes, it's authorized by official translates and official publisher. While your scans here not.

Worst argument I have ever seen. The author himself literally tweet the manga every single time a new chapter is out. THOSE ARE OFFICIAL TRANSLATION.
Stop nitpicking mate.

 

[EinelRendezvous]

Mate, the end of the game. The scans explicitly stated fate and plot AS SEPARATE. I disagree with the thread.
I brought official translation and official scans. Your own translation is irrelevant. I brought you raw scans, and you can see that the other two terms will make no sense. The other supporting statements are proof of metafictional elements' involvement.

Mate, the one you speaks at context has bought 2 official translates and from official publisher. First yen-press, second j-novels. Tell me which publisher of translate that you brought? You sounds confident about bring stuff from official publisher, but as far as I seen just a bunch of MTL. And it's not metafictional, plot-manipulation is much more complex than that. You need to try harder if you want to disprove my 2 official translate from 2 official publisher. The raw scans means nothing. I have a japanese friend and his answer will be the same like me.

Worst argument I have ever seen. The author himself literally tweet the manga every single time a new chapter is out. THOSE ARE OFFICIAL TRANSLATION.
Stop nitpicking mate.

Bro, literally red-herring right now. What about the Jnovels, and yen-press who is literally official? gonna ignore that? You're the one who nitpicking here by your limited knowledge of translation and publisher. TELL ME WHICH PUBLISHER THAT RELEASE AN OFFICIAL TRANSLATION THAT YOU BOUGHT.

 

[EinelRendezvous]

Right now you're debating this with me because you have an ego, the point of your argument right now just to try you're not wrong. While in fact, you're very wrong. Especially when you said the MTL is more accurate. And know that, the context behind Aoi saying meta and script thing is her precognition. Nothing else. And in the very next line, she admits the precognition has many limits. You can see it by the scans that I bought.

 

[ImmortalDread]

“The raw scans means nothing”. I am done.
“Plot manipulation is much complex”, not here, mate. As long as manipulating something through metafictional elements, it is fine.
“Talking about my ego but yet says his translation is more accurate than official” Ok bro


IF “Script” is her precognition, then this is also plot manipulation and a possible uses. I still disagree to the thread. And yes, I still stand, you are nitpicking and complicating.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Especially when you said the MTL is more accurate.

I never claimed my MTL is accurate. I said even within 3 other translation sources, all of them has no other meaning and fate and plot are being separated.

 

[EinelRendezvous]

1. It means nothing because when you translates it with MTL, there can be a mis, and while we have an official that I bought, we shall pass it to the official interpretation. And both of them, says it as metaphore.
2. Plot Manipulation is indeed more complex, it has a criteria to see the fundamentals aspect down to fictional. Not just a materalization of posibilities in history.
3. You're literally telling me MTL > My official translation, that's an ego. And with your friends spamming raw translations with MTL just prove that.
4. No, because her precognition is just an "if" that means a metaphore. It can't be taken as a literal sense.

I was referring to this, + the translation is even accurate.

Open your links. It'll go to an MTL translation LOL.

 

[EinelRendezvous]

And you don't answer my question. WHICH PUBLISHER THAT OFFICIALY TRANSLATES INSTANT DEATH, ESPECIALLY THE SCENES THAT YOU BROUGHT? I WANT TO KNOW THAT.

LET'S SEE WHICH PUBLISHER DO YOU BROUGHT.

 

[EinelRendezvous]

I tell you mine, I brought from; yen-press, and j-novels. You can check their website or even wiki to know how credible they are.

 

[Tatsumi504]

The reasoning here looks solid enough so i agree with the CRT. Just using "script" and seeing fate as a script isn't enough.
Now on that note @Dread, no, seeing fate as a script isn't enough regardless of the authors intentions. The ability is still fate manipulation, the only thing that changes is how it's achieved.
If we gave abilities like these just based on names, then it'll just be chaos. As an example, haki in one piece would be conceptual manipulation

 

[Tatsumi504]

What I'm proposing here is that the manga did say plot.
And if you don't believe it, then why not let us bring the statement to someone who can speak japanese then?

Plot can also mean plan‍♂

 

[ImmortalDread]

1. It means nothing because when you translates it with MTL, there can be a mis, and while we have an official that I bought, we shall pass it to the official interpretation. And both of them, says it as metaphore.
2. Plot Manipulation is indeed more complex, it has a criteria to see the fundamentals aspect down to fictional. Not just a materalization of posibilities in history.
3. You're literally telling me MTL > My official translation, that's an ego. And with your friends spamming raw translations with MTL just prove that.
4. No, because her precognition is just an "if" that means a metaphore. It can't be taken as a literal sense.

1- Yes, raw text are actually more important than your translation and mines
2- Nope, it is a normal ability like any other ability. You are complicating it.
3- No, I am telling official manga translation > your own translation. And talking about ego, you're nitpicking.
4- Yes. It is, if other statements are supporting it.

Open your links. It'll go to an MTL translation LOL.

MTL translation is for raw, but the former is official translation

I tell you mine, I brought from; yen-press, and j-novels. You can check their website or even wiki to know how credible they are.

Cool mate. Nice spending, but I can see manga for free. And the author use it and tweet it.

And you don't answer my question. (removed caps as it is disturbing)

It is from official manga.

Now on that note @Dread, no, seeing fate as a script isn't enough regardless of the authors intentions. The ability is still fate manipulation, the only thing that changes is how it's achieved.
If we gave abilities like these just based on names, then it'll just be chaos. As an example, haki in one piece would be conceptual manipulation

If you can use causality manipulation via metafictional elements, it is fine. Besides, it has nothing to do with the name.
The author explicitly separated fate and plot. You can check the source yourself. I even dropped raw text. You can translate it on your own.

And I hope you don't play the same game and say “it means outline”, naw mate, we know author means plot in literal sense.

Plot can also mean plan‍♂

Aha, is that the reason you are against me? Alright sure. I can drop and stop talking.

My position remains unchanged.

 

[ReverseLooser]

— Main Problems.

• Aoi Hayanose Plot Manipulation Reasonings.
The main thing that Aoi has PM is the description; (Aoi can manipulate the plot of destiny; like a movie protagonist she is protected from death as long as her death is "not interesting") - This is an incorrect description and completely ignores the context in Volume 2 of Instant Death. Because there are so many loopholes.

Aoi can indeed see fate as a "script" just like a movie. However, the Meta-Story there is just a metaphor to explain that each destiny will have a different flow of events. Aoi herself admits that she cannot see everything simultaneously because it is situation-based and each scenario can change in complex ways. Aoi can only see the "destiny" that happens at that moment in time, not simultaneously for all time ( https://gyazo.com/6192eb41e83c03dd1cfd3d886976a018 ) <- Furthermore, another justification for Aoi's Plot Manipulation is because of her alleged Worldview Holders which would fall into the Slippery Slope Fallacy of only taking the extreme of an event (the highest point). Aoi's ability is only described as being able to change events and the world around her, not the entire world. This is very limited, and Aoi admits herself that she cannot do what she thinks is impossible including people who have High-Fate Value, beings who can be considered to have resistance to fate or Supernatural Luck cannot be affected ( https://gyazo.com/dfc0211ae68d151e0a6568d13b1eb4fd ) <- In the next sheet, the meaning of what is "impossible" for Aoi's ability to do is clarified, the moment when she fights the Reptilian Beast, Aoi admits that she cannot change or resist the existence of the Reptilian Beast especially in the size of its head because of the difference in size and strength so that she needs a physical battle to defeat the monster ( https://gyazo.com/83962dd9bfb60cf5789d61a4a9f6f086 ).

The entire conversation of Volume 2 proves that Aoi's destiny ability is limited. Aoi cannot control up to the Heavenly Record stage, which is a very wrong wank. Especially, statistically Aoi is the weakest Sage ( )

• Fate Value, Meta-Story, that is a full of misconceptions.

Based on the above, it is clear that the limitation of Aoi's abilities, which from all the descriptions I found, are "seeing fate, changing fate" and the like on a limited scale. The meaning of "Meta Story" can be interpreted as controlling events with other events, which is different from the fundamental criteria of Plot Manipulation from the vsbattle standard that looks at the fictionalization of characters who have this ability.

"Plot Manipulation is the ability to control the plot that governs reality. Commonly found in metafictional stories, the plot can be understood as a fundamental aspect of reality once one views that reality as fictional. It is the description of the world that doesn't only describe, but determines, reality itself."

Based on the explanation of Aoi's ability, her ability is limited and only leads to the "destiny" she sees ( ), the meaning of meta story in these scans ( ) <- does not mean that Aoi controls one's destiny to a fundamental level, but only sees destiny as a metaphor like a movie script. Meta story can mean "a story within a story" and the destiny Aoi sees is a small destiny of the big destiny she sees (the meaning of small destiny here is that she only sees the part of the script that benefits her).

Balance of Power ≠ Plot of Destiny. Here Aoi's ability used to change events is "Balance of Power" and this is more like Subjective Reality with Fate Manipulation, according to Aoi's ability. Scans for Balance of Power: ( )
Aoi's own abilities are limited and she can be subject to Fear Inducement by her opponent. Despite having Precognition, if the opponent's skill base is superior and has Fear Manip like Yogiri, then Aoi can be paralyzed. Scans for Aoi being hit by Yogiri's Fear Manip: () - You might reason that Yogiri was the end all be all, and would obviously scare Aoi, but that context is irrelevant because the reason Aoi was scared was because she saw a destiny where the victory was entirely Yogiri's and she could not overcome that with her Balance of Power.

• Yukimasa's Future Controls.
Yukimasa as a person who also confronts Yogiri and can control "fate" does not show the conditions corresponding to Plot Manipulation, but only a form of Fate Manipulation which ultimately has no effect on Yogiri. Based on her ability to manipulate the future with a full description can be seen here: ( https://imgur.io/a/TmlN0GH )

— Conclusion.
1. Aoi does not have Plot Manipulation, we here cannot suppress the context to bring Heavenly Record, even though in the same volume (volume 2) Aoi admits that her abilities are very limited and cannot deny the existence of the opponent.
2. Aoi does not have Plot Manipulation, but only Fate Manipulation. The meaning of Meta- Story is different from Meta- Fictional. Standard vsbattle uses Meta-Fictional which directs the plot as the fundamental aspect and the user sees it as a "fiction" that can be changed regardless of the setting, not just a string of fate that is seen like a movie script, if it is just like that then her ability will only be a Meta-Story that manipulates events on other events on a small scale.
3. Takatou Yogiri will also not have Plot Manip.
4. The most appropriate rating is to change Plot Manip, to Fate Manipulation along with the resistance to the ability.

— Votings.
• Agree: @FlugelAlcor
• Disagree:

Seems good sir.

 

[Tatsumi504]

We never brought any fan translation. We brought official translation with official sources.
You can even bring human translation, and it won't change the fact.

Well, in situations like these, i believe the source material takes precedence while others though, canon, will just be used as supporting evidence

 

[ImmortalDread]

Well, in situations like these, i believe the source material takes precedence while others though, canon, will just be used as supporting evidence

Sure thing.

そんな者を相手に 運命だの筋書きだの 戯れ言にもならない

Here is raw. Bring any human translator and translate it. Let's see if it will change the game or not.

 

[EinelRendezvous]

1- Yes, raw text are actually more important than your translation and mines
2- Nope, it is a normal ability like any other ability. You are complicating it.
3- No, I am telling official manga translation > your own translation. And talking about ego, you're nitpicking.
4- Yes. It is, if other statements are supporting it.

1. No. My translations is from the Jnovels, literally translated by the specialist of japanese-english language. And it's more reliable because it's authorized by official publisher.
2. Of course not. If everyone says it's a simplistic like you, then there will be many stretch-thing that won't correlates with our standards. The precognition indicating nothing to metafictional context.
3. No. First of all, the original source is the Light Novel. The jnovels is translating the LN. Manga follows Light Novel, so as the primal source says it as a metaphor sense, so it would be convenient to follows it. And I believe the translation you brought have no publisher. If so, tell me who?
4. Too bad, the statements indicating fates more than plots.

MTL translation is for raw, but the former is official translation

Huh, how come it's official? which publisher is it?

Cool mate. Nice spending, but I can see manga for free. And the author use it and tweet it.

Then which publisher is it? links for that? I believe Fujitaka is not very fluent in english. And no author should share their own works for free unless it's authorized and have a promo. As far as I know, it's not.

It is from official manga.

The manga is, but the translations not.

If you can use causality manipulation via metafictional elements, it is fine. Besides, it has nothing to do with the name.
The author explicitly separated fate and plot. You can check the source yourself. I even dropped raw text. You can translate it on your own.

And I hope you don't play the same game and say “it means outline”, naw mate, we know author means plot in literal sense.

You're repeating the same line. Well no. Seeing fate as a script it just a metaphorical way to say the branch of history just like a movies. Aoi can indeed see fate as a "script" just like a movie. However, the Meta-Story there is just a metaphor to explain that each destiny will have a different flow of events. Aoi herself admits that she cannot see everything simultaneously because it is situation-based and each scenario can change in complex ways. Aoi can only see the "destiny" that happens at that moment in time, not simultaneously for all time ( https://gyazo.com/6192eb41e83c03dd1cfd3d886976a018 ) <- Furthermore, another justification for Aoi's Plot Manipulation is because of her alleged Worldview Holders which would fall into the Slippery Slope Fallacy of only taking the extreme of an event (the highest point). Aoi's ability is only described as being able to change events and the world around her, not the entire world. This is very limited, and Aoi admits herself that she cannot do what she thinks is impossible including people who have High-Fate Value, beings who can be considered to have resistance to fate or Supernatural Luck cannot be affected ( https://gyazo.com/dfc0211ae68d151e0a6568d13b1eb4fd ) <- In the next sheet, the meaning of what is "impossible" for Aoi's ability to do is clarified, the moment when she fights the Reptilian Beast, Aoi admits that she cannot change or resist the existence of the Reptilian Beast especially in the size of its head because of the difference in size and strength so that she needs a physical battle to defeat the monster ( https://gyazo.com/83962dd9bfb60cf5789d61a4a9f6f086 ).

Aha, is that the reason you are against me? Alright sure. I can drop and stop talking. My position remains unchanged.

Okay dread.

 

[EinelRendezvous]

Sure thing.

そんな者を相手に 運命だの筋書きだの 戯れ言にもならない

Here is raw. Bring any human translator and translate it. Let's see if it will change the game or not.

Bro here's the official that I BOUGHT FROM JNOVELS. IT'S SAID METAPHORICAL MOVIE. WHICH PUBLISHER YOU BROUGHT? YOU DODGE MY QUESTION LOL.

 

[Tatsumi504]

I tell you mine, I brought from; yen-press, and j-novels. You can check their website or even wiki to know how credible they are.

Official translation isn't the be all, end all either. They can be wrong. Taking Maou gakuin as an example, the official EN translation released by j-novels translated "country" to "City". They've also made mistakes in the key words.
No translation is perfect either way. There are some language barriers that just can't be breached especially when the languages are so distinct from each other