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Instant Death Revision: Azathoth Edition

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Oblivion_Of_The_Endless

Oblivion_Of_The_Endless

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Mitsuki​

ID has ended (not really since the author decided to continue it), so it's about time we make a profile for the final antagonist of the series.

Here is the profile, scaling to the currently accepted cosmology (we'll get to that below)

Yogiri​

Yogiri needs a new subtabber for his avatar key, called "Third Gate", which has these abilities:

Greater Power Nullification & Causality Manipulation (With his Third Gate, he is able to kill the relationship/association between two things. Killed the relationship between dream and dreamer, completely disconnecting Mitsuki from his own dream, and as such leaving him as only a disembodied consciousness solely to sustain the world[21][22)

Cosmology​


Continuation of this thread. Now that we know Mitsuki's role in the cosmology, we can continue the discussion of what tier would suit it best, if there is a need for it.

This is the current reasoning for Low 1-A, since Ultimate Ensembles are considered Low 1-A in the wiki (and also currently used as supporting evidence for Yogiri's 1-A rating). Even if it's deemed not enough to qualify for a Type 4 multiverse (which also needs to be discussed), I personally think the cosmology could still be High 1-B or likely High 1-B since Kouryu (who is nigh-omniscient) implies the progression of the universe-embedding hierarchy is infinite in context:

Some of us believe in a theory like this: There are universes contained inside larger universes and so on. Why has that total collection of universes survived? If space and time are infinite, then there is a possibility that eventually an ultimate being would emerge - Volume 11 Chapter 21
Click to expand...

And then there is Mitsuki whose nature would transcend said cosmology and characters who scales to it (Low 1-A?)

Also, in the cosmology page, some sources are said to be from "Color Illustrations"...No idea what this is (It was probably a Dread moment), so it should be replaced with the actual source.


Agree (with 1-A): @Elizhaa @Dereck03 @YungManzi @LuffyRuffy46307 @NIK_FARIS
@DarkDragonMedeus
Disagree:

Neutral:
 
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Since ID is officially coming to an end (kinda not since Author decide to write more). A promise is a promise, let's finish the discussion now.

If the Staff members reject the Ultimate Ensemble, I don't mind it going back to the original tier 1-B or slight upgrade to High 1-B or Likely High 1-B as proposed by Oblivion, with Mitsuki and Yogiri being an "exception," as Low 1-A in the verse, granted if Mitsuki's trancendance is accepted.
 
what makes the hierarchy of the universe can be H1B?, I don't see it can be H1B anymore since this wiki term change about the bigger holding the smaller is no longer valid.
 
The "larger" stuff is like half of the reason, the other is the embedding of dimensions, which is still valid and was actually the primary reason it got Tier 1 back then in the first place.
A: One of the more straightforward ways to qualify for Tier 2 and up through higher dimensions is by affecting whole higher-dimensional universes which can embed the whole of lower-dimensional ones within themselves
Click to expand...

Should also be noted that even the first higher universe already trivializes Low 1-C structures and beings that are beyond said structures
 
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Ihsjihahxu said:
Ultimate Ensemble not working?
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It's currently being used as supporting evidence for 1-A alongside the WoG. But some people had issues saying that it was too vague to consider it as a Type 4 multiverse.

Should also be noted that the kanji used in the novel for Ultimate Ensemble is in fact the same used for when one refers to Tegmark's Type 4 multiverse in japanese.
 
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Some of us believe in a theory like this: There are universes contained inside larger universes and so on. Why has that total collection of universes survived? If space and time are infinite, then there is a possibility that eventually an ultimate being would emerge, one that could wipe out all universes on a whim. If the possibility isn’t zero, then given infinite time, it is guaranteed to happen. But it hasn’t. From what we’ve been able to observe, once gods reach a certain threshold of power, they disappear. So there must be someone out there erasing them, right? There must be some sort of limit or criteria being applied.”
Click to expand...

From Koryu's words, Why did the entire collected universe survive?

She had followed him from an entirely different world first, so it was no surprise she could follow him here as well. Now what would follow would be even greater tragedy. They would both leap between universes, trying to predict their opponent’s moves and erase their destination before they made it there. They would attempt to jump out of the dimensional space occupied by their opponent and destroy it from the outside. As they did, their opponent would jump to an even higher level universe and attempt the same thing.

There should have been no end to the cycle, but suddenly there was. Touichirou’s attack had erased the universe containing the UEG.
Click to expand...
battle of the two Jump to a higher universe. The two fought and were unable to reach it. A universe that even brings together all the universes.


Plus, the writer of Fuji knows that The battle had no end, which was possible. The entire universe he destroyed was No End.



Ultimate ensemble
Worlds existed within Celestial Foundations, and these Foundations

existed within the "sea." The sea was enormous, containing countless such

Foundations, but it was not hard to imagine the existence of worlds outside

of it. There were worlds, the space outside them, and another place beyond

all of that. Worlds with different fundamental laws all existed nested within

each other. That was apparently the structure of the universe. "Apparently,"

because it was impossible to observe the entire thing.

That said, there were some who treated this as all that existed, since it comprised the entirety of the territory perceptible to the most intelligent life forms on these worlds. For convenience, the term "Ultimate Ensemble World" referred to this collection of worlds. Many of them followed similar
Click to expand...

And I thought that the Ultimate Ensemble universe was a bigger universe. which contained the entire universe including the universe that the two gods destroyed and jumped over.

Ultimate ensemble It's not just containing countless Celestia Foundations. But it also contains an infinite number of universes.

There should have been no end to the cycle, but suddenly there was.
Click to expand...

From the context, the writer tried to convey that That battle, that cycle should be No End, and it also means that it destroys the endless universe higher.

From the web novel, it appears that Yogiri is the one who determines the Ultimate Ensemble.

And it's possible that Yogiri created the Ultimate Ensemble. The end is beyond the dimensions of the Ultimate Ensemble.
 
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Honestly, I think Mitsuki could still be 1-A despite High 1-B or Low 1-A hierarchy; Reality > Fiction transcendence (R>F) is supposed to be equated to transcending all concepts of dimensions in those contexts.
Let's say the hierarchy is high 1-B. If a character is superior, above or outside the hierarchy, but there is no more elaboration on how unbound by the hierarchy or system is that character, then that character is Low 1-A at best; if there is more elaboration, like with R>F that character is unbound by the hierarchy or system like with reality fiction, it should be 1-A; the closest of the former situation is with cases like the old Marvel abstracts' rating, who used to be Low 1-A from being superior to High 1-B structures; Ruphas' case is somewhat similar; and the latter case is with cases like 1-A Old Ones in D&D in the wiki, who used to be Low 1-A before more contexts of transcendence, like through reality fiction. I guess this is closer to qualitative superiority; it would be still 1-A with the wiki revision.

Honestly, Ultimate Ensemble sounds at least High 1-B with the quote above from Volume 14, from the post above; though, it seems to match the definition of Ultimate Ensemble as least Low 1-A. I think the new tiering system will keep the Ultimate Ensemble at low 1-A.
 
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XxZetsuxX said:
Yogiri is High 1-A then since he transcends Mitsuki (I think?)
Click to expand...
Nah it'd probably just be another layer into 1-A if anything since it'd just stack I think

Elizhaa said:
Honestly, Ultimate Ensemble sounds at least High 1-B with the quote above from Volume 14, from the post above; though, it seems to match the definition of Ultimate Ensemble as least Low 1-A. I think the new tiering system will keep the Ultimate Ensemble at low 1-A.
Click to expand...
From what I remember reading (I don't want to say for sure since it's a ton of blocks of text and its hard for me to remember it all) yeah Type 4 is gonna be Low 1-A iirc
 
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Does Yogiri transcend Mitsuki? Was the nature of Mitsuku's status as dreamer of the world and Yogiri's status as the world's balance (safeguard?) ever compared. I know their was comparisons made that explained them both being vital, which was backed up by Yogiri having to use his third gate to prevent him from interfering while not killing him fully, but was a point of superiority ever made?
 
Oblivion_Of_The_Endless said:
Not really. At least, I dont think so. He just scales unquantifiably above but still same level of existence.
Click to expand...

… this make me remember on how we treat Yogiri unquantifiable degree above countless 1-B lol.

Anyway, for the whole CRT. Yeah I agree the context enough for Ultimate Ensemble to be at very least High 1-B by itself via context by the omniscient narrator and Kouryu. And much higher Low 1-A or 1-A via Mitsuki and Yogiri

Regarding on treatment between between Yogiri and Mitsuki, being fair I am fine with any interpretation.

I do honestly think there enough proofs to said that Yogiri have level of transcendence over Mitsuki from QnA with the Author for final book, Kouryu’s statements from both vol 11 and 14, QnA from vol 11 etc etc. But if that seem still to vague and feel like taking higher into the interpretation of given context, then there is that I guess.

At worst, we would treat Yogiri > Mitsuki at quite large gap but not enough for an actual transcendence.
 
Everything12 said:
Was the nature of Mitsuku's status as dreamer of the world and Yogiri's status as the world's balance (safeguard?) ever compared. I know their was comparisons made that explained them both being vital, which was backed up by Yogiri having to use his third gate to prevent him from interfering while not killing him fully, but was a point of superiority ever made?
Click to expand...

Admittedly, the comparison made between Mitsuki existence and Yogiri existence to the cosmology is evidently rare in the novel.

“If you (Mitsuki) died, the world would end. If you hadn’t told him that, maybe things wouldn’t have turned out this way. Well, actually, I’m not sure about that either. Yogiri Takatou is one of the regulating forces in the Ensemble World, so it would be a much bigger problem if he died.”
Click to expand...
Kouryuu specifically said that Yogiri's existence is much more important to the cosmology compared to Mitsuki's existence. Whether this warrants a transcendence over Mitsuki depends on each person's interpretation. Personally, I do and am in agreement with @NIK_FARIS above.

But if that seem still too vague and feel like taking higher into the interpretation of given context, then there is that I guess. Que sera-sera.
 
Is it actual R-F transcendence or just normal subjective reality? Last time I checked Mitsuki himself lives inside the world created by him too as opposed to existing on a higher plane than the dream.
 
Delta333 said:
Is it actual R-F transcendence or just normal subjective reality? Last time I checked Mitsuki himself lives inside the world created by him too as opposed to existing on a higher plane than the dream.
Click to expand...
The one within isn’t the actual Mitsuki but rather representation of Mitsuki within the dream. There also description of relationship between Mitsuki and HR using analogous of a “player controlling the game” and him calling the “Mitsuki” within the HR to be simply character within a game and considering it as dream.
 
Yeah. The Mitsuki we see in the Celestial Foundation is the dream self/avatar of the real Mitsuki that actually R>Fs the Foundation. It's like how when we dream and see ourselves and act within our dream. His situation is like a lucid dream, which is why his avatar is so powerful.
 
I'm pretty much in agreement with what elizhaa said so OP seems fine.
NIK_FARIS said:
At worst, we would treat Yogiri > Mitsuki at quite large gap but not enough for an actual transcendence
Click to expand...
Also I find this actually a safer end bit if everyone think that this below.
NIK_FARIS said:
I do honestly think there enough proofs to said that Yogiri have level of transcendence over Mitsuki from QnA with the Author for final book, Kouryu’s statements from both vol 11 and 14, QnA from vol 11 etc etc. But if that seem still to vague and feel like taking higher into the interpretation of given context, then there is that I guess.
Click to expand...
is enough for a transcendence proof then I wouldn't not oppose to take this end instead but for now I agree with the first scenario.
 
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