Yogiri Takatou and Aoi Hayanose, mostly others that get scaled to Plot Manipulation downgrade to Fate Manipulation.

[EinelRendezvous]

Official translation isn't the be all, end all either. They can be wrong. Taking Maou gakuin as an example, the official EN translation released by j-novels translated "country" to "City". They've also made mistakes in the key words.
No translation is perfect either way. There are some language barriers that just can't be breached especially when the languages are so distinct from each other

That's correct, but it will be more reliable to depends on them rather than an unofficial translation. For MGK's case, it has a differents team and it could be that way, but let's not just see the weak-parts of official translations. The context more subtle to precognition and nothing indicates plot as you agree.

 

[Vasco]

OP shouldn't you update on those who agree and disagree?

 

[ImmortalDread]

No this is not a game, where mines or yours is reliable. The manga is official. And it is canon.

 

[EinelRendezvous]

OP shouldn't you update on those who agree and disagree?

Yeah I will starts at it.

No this is not a game, where mines or yours is reliable. The manga is official. And it is canon.

Which publishers that release official english translation of the manga? tell me or give a link of proof for the claim you said (the authors give the fan to read the manga for free).

 

[ImmortalDread]

Yeah I will starts at it.


Which publishers that release official english translation of the manga? tell me or give a link of proof for the claim you said (the authors give the fan to read the manga for free).

Alright, I will bring it. But again, it won't change its canonicity.

 

[Tatsumi504]

And I hope you don't play the same game and say “it means outline”, naw mate, we know author means plot in literal sense.

I won't. We already went through something similar before, i won't be the one to reenact that experience especially not on a friend.

Aha, is that the reason you are against me? Alright sure. I can drop and stop talking.

No, it's not. The scans he brought in the OP just has too much evidence of the use of "meta-script" just being metaphorical and is actually just fate manipulation. I used the plot= plan because plot CRT's just bring bad memories, it was an argument used by staff so it was just me throwing a bit of spite at something unpleasant (completely unrelated to this CRT), just didn't strike through.

Back on topic, regardless of the authors intentions, it seems what he ended creating is just fate manipulation that uses representations of meta-fiction to achieve it. Its currently a handful of scans against one manga panel+ author intentions.

 

[EinelRendezvous]

Alright, I will bring it. But again, it won't change its canonicity.

Onpoint. Which one?

 

[ImmortalDread]

No way, you are asking? Where you were debating the whole time, not knowing which scan I meant?

Besides, since we both were toxic to each other. I apologize. But here is the scan.

そんな者を相手に 運命だの筋書きだの 戯れ言にもならない

 

[ImmortalDread]

I won't. We already went through something similar before, i won't be the one to reenact that experience especially not on a friend.

I see, my bad.

No, it's not. The scans he brought in the OP just has too much evidence of the use of "meta-script" just being metaphorical and is actually just fate manipulation. I used the plot= plan because plot CRT's just bring bad memories, it was an argument used by staff so it was just me throwing a bit of spite at something unpleasant (completely unrelated to this CRT), just didn't strike through.

But again, I brought evidence that fate and plot are separated. I have a point.

Back on topic, regardless of the authors intentions, it seems what he ended creating is just fate manipulation that uses representations of meta-fiction to achieve it. Its currently a handful of scans against one manga panel+ author intentions.

Fate manipulation via metafictional elements is literally a possible use for plot manipulation. This is truly standards.

 

[EinelRendezvous]

IM NOT ASKING FOR RAW. I AM ASKING FOR THE PARTS YOU SAY THE AUTHOR GIVE READERS A FREE LINKS TO READ THE MANGA.

Cool mate. Nice spending, but I can see manga for free. And the author use it and tweet it.

It is from official manga.

You are dodging my questions even about the official publishers.

 

[EinelRendezvous]

The main problems is:
1. Aoi has a very limited Fate Manipulations.
2. Her precognitions that sees the script of fate is also very limited.
3. She can't harm a being that is pure stronger than her, just like the battle with reptile beast.

 

[ImmortalDread]

IM NOT ASKING FOR RAW. I AM ASKING FOR THE PARTS YOU SAY THE AUTHOR GIVE READERS A FREE LINKS TO READ THE MANGA.

Raw text > everything. I regret apologizing now for being toxic. You don't deserve it.

You are dodging my questions even about the official publishers.

I said I will bring it, but you seem to ignore what I said.

 

[ImmortalDread]

The main problems is:
1. Aoi has a very limited Fate Manipulations.
2. Her precognitions that sees the script of fate is also very limited.
3. She can't harm a being that is pure stronger than her, just like the battle with reptile beast.

This all does not indicate for a not possible use for plot manipulation.
Fate manipulation through metafictional elements is legit plot manipulation for our standards.

 

[NIK_FARIS]

Before I go giving my explanation. @EinelRendezvous Do you read Neechan? Because Aoi deal with plot are actually connect with main story of Neechan and the one from manga and novel are just support.

edit: I might give explanation some time later though since it already late night at my place

 

[ImmortalDread]

Also answering your questions

• earthstar comic
• The EN LN is from JNovel
• Manga EN is official translation

 

[EinelRendezvous]

Before I go giving my explanation. @EinelRendezvous Do you read Neechan? Because Aoi deal with plot are actually connect with main story of Neechan and the one from manga and novel are just support.

edit: I might give explanation some time later though since it already late night at my place

If you're using worldview holders, from that terminology, then it's very different for Aoi's ability since there's many witnesses for her.

 

[EinelRendezvous]

Also answering your questions

• earthstar comic
• The EN LN is from JNovel
• Manga EN is official translation

Funny enough, the EN LN that I bought (Jnovels) said it as metaphorical. Also, the context from the manga that you brought is different that we have in standards. Even tho the author intends to call such thing as plot, it won't fall under the same definition like our plot. Because it can be means as a another part of story from those perspective. While here, it's not.

 

[ImmortalDread]

This is a ridiculous counterargument to assume that the author did not tend it as plot, even THO there is no other terms for it.
You seem you want to downgrade it and ignore its meaning.

No, I still disagree with thread. I brought you official manga and official translation and also official raw text. The author explicitly separated both terms.
Other statements support it. Author involved metafictional elements. I don't see reason for rejecting it.


Also, stop using “I bought it from it, so mines is official”. No one really cares, as long as I brought from a canon official source.

 

[EinelRendezvous]

Dread, for many times, you just proving yourself to be wrong and stonehead. Authors has a different perspective than we are as a debater. They don't really care about making their fiction following our standards. I'll just need to wait the staffs judgement, since you're just leading us to a circularity fallacy.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Dread, for many times, you just proving yourself to be wrong and stonehead. Authors has a different perspective than we are as a debater. They don't really care about making their fiction following our standards. I'll just need to wait the staffs judgement, since you're just leading us to a circularity fallacy.

Not when it comes to overpowered novels that involve metafictional elements, and also where the author explicitly separated both.
Also, this is no argument. You still did not even clarify why he used two different terms “FATE and PLOT” to clarify his metafiction work.

Also, no, you are the one who is nitpicking and complicating a hax. And also trying to use arguments as such "Author has, I brought this novel, so mines is more valued".

Not letting this slide. Also, sure we have staff knowledgeable members.

 

[EinelRendezvous]

Not going into a circles of devils. Since publics can evaluate which is the stonehead and which is not. I've ask most of famous staffs to do the evaluation.

Short Summary:
Dread's on the disagreement side because he thinks Aoi's precognation as literal sense when she looks at the fate just like how the script in movie. While in fact, the precogntion only tell us about metaphorical context of Aoi's precognation. That's why in both translates, it says "if" because it reffers to a what-if sense. Aoi's try to telling us about her ability mechanism. She then explains, even with her ability, she can't erase the reptile beast that she fought because the size of it's head and it's brute force is stronger than her. It's far from Plot Manipulation, and clearly would lead to a very limited ability of fate categorism. Other than it, there are 8 peoples who agrees with me in the thread. Since Dread leading us to a circle of devils (no-end debate). Then I'll give the chance for superior staffs to evaluate this.

 

[ImmortalDread]

No need to do a summary of what I said. People can see what I said basically. Twisting my words or manipulating my words or even talking instead of me as opposing party is a terrible habit. Also, in nowhere, my scan said “if”. The scan is declared, clear-cut explained that both terms are separating. Just removing or ignoring one term to do an argument and ignore other is bad and ignorance fallacy.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Also, having “Most of the people agreed with me” argument won't make your position any better. None of them are supporters, and one supporter also disagreed with this. Also, you are one with circling argument and say “What I bought is better and reliable, so yours is not”, where in fact mines is canon and official and even with the same company that yours comes from.

@Overlord_THE_END will drop his argument as well here.

 

[Abstractly_a_Protagonist]

You clearly don't read my post eh? it's because Aoi's ability getting overwhelmed. Are you ignoring the fact where Aoi explains to herself that she can't erase a monster because of a difference in power terms? that's enough to claim it's not PM.

You are interpreting Aoi claim wrong there, buddy.



In here we can see Aoi clearly capable of "affecting" the dragon by believing (using her personal belief AKA JUST WORLD) that such a big animal couldn't possibly fly, thus the dragon fall and unable to fly.

Next she says "I can't do anything that seems impossible to me, and those with high fate levels."

This is relevant because in the scan below (the scan you use) it says this.



Hanakawa never ask Aoi to erase the dragon, he only ask. "CAN YOU DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT?!"

Aoi then reply, "It make sense for a reptile this large to exist."

This is not because Aoi is weak, it's because SHE BELIEVE a reptile this large exist, thus her power which based on her personal belief couldn't erase the reptile.

Again, it's not because Aoi is weak thus she cannot erase the dragon. It's because the machination of her ability which based on her personal belief (JUST WORLD) only work if she truly belief on something. In this case, Aoi belief such a reptile on that size actually exist, thus she couldn't erase them.

Can you really convince yourself that a monster in front of you doesn't exist? It's Impossible, hence the whole Aoi statement of she cannot do something that impossible to her alludes to this.

But on the other scan, Aoi belief that Reptile on such size couldn't fly despite having large wing, thus she cannot fly (the dragon is female btw).

Please don't deliberately put the next scan, yet not the scan where it allude to the next scan.
The context lose if you do that.

 

[EinelRendezvous]

You are interpreting Aoi claim wrong there, buddy.



In here we can see Aoi clearly capable of "affecting" the dragon by believing (using her personal belief AKA JUST WORLD) that such a big animal couldn't possibly fly, thus the dragon fall and unable to fly.

Next she says "I can't do anything that seems impossible to me, and those with high fate levels."

This is relevant because in the scan below (the scan you use) it says this.



Hanakawa never ask Aoi to erase the dragon, he only ask. "CAN YOU DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT?!"

Aoi then reply, "It make sense for a reptile this large to exist."

This is not because Aoi is weak, it's because SHE BELIEVE a reptile this large exist, thus her power which based on her personal belief couldn't erase the reptile.

Again, it's not because Aoi is weak thus she cannot erase the dragon. It's because the machination of her ability which based on her personal belief (JUST WORLD) only work if she truly belief on something. In this case, Aoi belief such a reptile on that size actually exist, thus she couldn't erase them.

Can you really convince yourself that a monster in front of you doesn't exist? It's Impossible, hence the whole Aoi statement of she cannot do something that impossible to her alludes to this.

But on the other scan, Aoi belief that Reptile on such size couldn't fly despite having large wing, thus she cannot fly (the dragon is female btw).

Please don't deliberately put the next scan, yet not the scan where it allude to the next scan.
The context lose if you do that.

Aoi can indeed influence Dragons not to fly, but that will not provide significant feats that qualify for the Plot Manipulation category. You say I shouldn't bring up the next part, even though here you are blatantly ignoring the actual context. Basically the explanation of "High-Fate" Values and "Meta-Story" is just a metaphor to explain the level of their lucky condition, which has nothing to do with the conscious Plot Manipulation part at all.

Since the thing you brought up was a scene that I had read many times, and even brought up above then I'll refute that interpretation with simple logic, the premise you're currently trying to explain is that the thing that limits Aoi is herself, because basically, I said above that it becomes a form of Subjective Reality because it creates subjective reality on a small scale around the user and the effect we can see when the Dragon falls. However, plot-manipulation is as wide as the fundamental aspects that make up the fiction, has no boundaries at all and can change any background or fundamental aspects that compose it, here Aoi herself cannot erase the existence of the Dragon because it is a "fact" that Dragons with the size that big could exist, which meant she couldn't change the fundamental part that made up the existence of Dragons. This would make no sense if Aoi had Plot Manipulation, as the only limitation that exists on fundamental level abilities is with deeper abilities or certain levels of resistance which are described as being within the deeper scope of reality, but this is not the case here.

My interpretation is not wrong because it is in line with the story being told, that is, even though Aoi can arrange destiny around her, she still has 'limits' that are impossible for her. Especially when dealing with beings with High-Fate Values. In addition, the conditions in the description showed a lot of the shortcomings of Aoi herself as a user.

 

[Vasco]

Basically the explanation of "High-Fate" Values and "Meta-Story" is just a metaphor to explain the level of their lucky condition, which has nothing to do with the conscious Plot Manipulation part at all.

It's even on plot manipulation page.
Note that plot manipulation should not be listed just because a power is compared to a trope or otherwise metafiction is used as a metaphor. For instance, a character that is lucky or fated to win like the protagonist of a story would only get this power if that is done by altering the plot. Otherwise it would simply be Supernatural Luck or Fate Manipulation.

 

[EinelRendezvous]

Thanks to my friend. I got a new evidences. And it's on the raw form. The raw form who got judged by Dread by a source above all translations, saying the same like what I explained. That Aoi telling the meta-parts is just an act of metaphore. It's official and as I said, the friend of mine wether it's japanese or nah, they will have a same opinion like me, who is in truth side. The scans that brought by Dread to supports plot manip, just because it mentions "plot" is a different context and get manipulated, sinces it has no correlation to story other than a hyperbole lores.

Full: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1oZkiMavcY6wyL4_AyFAP1hQk5w31KMZ0 - The file about the scans is file 0147.

CR @ChlammyMafahl

 

[ImmortalDread]

Prove they are hyperbole lores.

 

[EinelRendezvous]

Doesn't need since the raw scans of LN is saying nothing about plots other than hyperboles or metaphores. You are worshipping raw scans right? You should look the newest evidences that I got. I shall disprove nothing, you're the one who shall prove it. The burden of proof is on the positive claim about it's existiality. Not mine.

 

[ImmortalDread]

You made a claim, therefore you need to prove it.

 

[EinelRendezvous]

You made a claim, therefore you need to prove it.

A claim of disagreement is different than a provement. The one who claim the plot mention in Tarouverse acts like our plot standards is yours. Basically, you can't say a claim about "I see an apple shaped like girrafe" and when someone disagree with it, you ask him to prove why you're wrong. That's not how it's play my dude. You should improve your critical thinking.

 

[ImmortalDread]

sinces it has no correlation to story other than a hyperbole lores.

You need to prove this.

 

[EinelRendezvous]

I'll wait the staffs. What a lucky to have a great friends that can find me a raw-scans, the guy who seems worshipping raw above all translations looks speechless and rather red-herring to other topics eh? That's enough said. I have provide you full scans that you can access in drive and the parts of raw in the imgure. I have no intentions to go circles with you bro.

 

[ImmortalDread]

You can actually stop cursing and insulting. You nowhere proved it is metaphor in the whole thread.
“Worshiping Raws”, we all judge from raws in this wiki.

 

[Arion]

Agree

 

[EinelRendezvous]

It's not like I haven't prove it, you just ignore it. That's all. And I have no intentions to do insulting, this is just how it works, since you're keep repeating the same thing with no new evidences and over-over again, it can be pointless.

 

[PhantomØ4]

Ugh this is so long but why is her worldview being used to disprove a separate ability? I dunno got it has been used but her ability doesn’t mess with plot. She can very minorly influence plot— her subjective reality isn’t the plot manipulation so only with the knowledge of how it supposed to flow she can affect it and is protected by it herself. So why are people agreeing with it by you using a secondary ability as proof? Hopefully you can enlighten me because I really don’t wanna read the back and forth that was a bit repetitious.

If the ability of sur he tuve reality has been getting confused by people to be based on plot manipulation a clarification should be made but the counter feats aren’t even from it lol.

 

[ImmortalDread]

I did not ignore anywhere. You want to equate “Plot” as “Fate” while those two terms has nothing in common.
You say each of metafictional element is “metaphoric” because it “makes no sense” for you.

I am not here ignoring, in fact you want to ignore the metafictional elements and call them metaphoric.

Her ability doesn’t mess with plot. She can very easily determine the plot, but her subjective reality isn't the plot manipulation, so only with the cognition of how it's presupposed to go she can impact it, and it protects her.

Also, insulting me while arguing won't bring you anything positive except ruining yourself.
You have no intentions to insult? The heck? You still insulted me, regardless if it is intended or not. I admit I was at one point toxic, and I apologized for it, but you still continue being toxic towards any opposing party. Infantile behavior.

Regardless, the person who made plot manipulation will comment soon here.

 

[EinelRendezvous]

Ugh this is so long but why is her worldview being used to disprove a separate ability? I dunno got it has been used but her ability doesn’t mess with plot. She can very minorly influence plot— her subjective reality isn’t the plot manipulation so only with the knowledge of how it supposed to flow she can affect it and is protected by it herself. So why are people agreeing with it by you using a secondary ability as proof? Hopefully you can enlighten me because I really don’t wanna read the back and forth that was a bit repetitious.

If the ability of sur he tuve reality has been getting confused by people to be based on plot manipulation a clarification should be made but the counter feats aren’t even from it lol.

1. Aoi is not a user of World-View Holders. It comes from different continuity, the claim has been made because the same author creates one franchise called Tarouverse. Aoi ability has been described as Sage's power, and called as Power of Balance that controls destiny.
2. The context of meta-story, script, and something like that only acts as a metaphor. Just like how the Official Translation said. Or the raw one.
3. She can't manipulates the fundamental fabrics of reality, proved by she can't erase the Dragon who attack her.
4.
Aoi can indeed see fate as a "script" just like a movie. However, the Meta-Story there is just a metaphor to explain that each destiny will have a different flow of events. Aoi herself admits that she cannot see everything simultaneously because it is situation-based and each scenario can change in complex ways. Aoi can only see the "destiny" that happens at that moment in time, not simultaneously for all time ( https://gyazo.com/6192eb41e83c03dd1cfd3d886976a018 ) <- Furthermore, another justification for Aoi's Plot Manipulation is because of her alleged Worldview Holders which would fall into the Slippery Slope Fallacy of only taking the extreme of an event (the highest point). Aoi's ability is only described as being able to change events and the world around her, not the entire world. This is very limited, and Aoi admits herself that she cannot do what she thinks is impossible including people who have High-Fate Value, beings who can be considered to have resistance to fate or Supernatural Luck cannot be affected ( https://gyazo.com/dfc0211ae68d151e0a6568d13b1eb4fd ) <- In the next sheet, the meaning of what is "impossible" for Aoi's ability to do is clarified, the moment when she fights the Reptilian Beast, Aoi admits that she cannot change or resist the existence of the Reptilian Beast especially in the size of its head because of the difference in size and strength so that she needs a physical battle to defeat the monster ( https://gyazo.com/83962dd9bfb60cf5789d61a4a9f6f086 ).

The entire conversation of Volume 2 proves that Aoi's destiny ability is limited. Aoi cannot control up to the Heavenly Record stage, which is a very wrong wank. Especially, statistically Aoi is the weakest Sage ( )

 

[ImmortalDread]

Well, I'm being meta about it. I have a bird's eye view of destiny. If this world is a movie, I can look into the script. I can look into the script.

How is this not plot manipulation for you? It seems clear-cut.