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Yogiri Takatou and Aoi Hayanose, mostly others that get scaled to Plot Manipulation downgrade to Fate Manipulation.

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Dread said:
And after if, it comes he CAN LOOK INTO Script??? Bro, this is not contradiction, WTF?
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She tells us, if this world is a movie, then she can see what happens next, because she can peek to the 'script' of history. At this point bro knows nothing, Aoi is a female, not male. The basic plot manip is from her, not Yogiri lol.
 
No, she is telling us, that if the world is a movie, SHE can look into the script. This is clear-cut plot manipulation (better, plot manipulation through fate manipulation)
Plus, I use he as neutral. Apologies.

I literally asked 2 people, and they say yes, it is plot hax.
 
EinelRendezvous said:
1. Aoi is not a user of World-View Holders. It comes from different continuity, the claim has been made because the same author creates one franchise called Tarouverse. Aoi ability has been described as Sage's power, and called as Power of Balance that controls destiny.
2. The context of meta-story, script, and something like that only acts as a metaphor. Just like how the Official Translation said. Or the raw one.
3. She can't manipulates the fundamental fabrics of reality, proved by she can't erase the Dragon who attack her.
4.
Aoi can indeed see fate as a "script" just like a movie. However, the Meta-Story there is just a metaphor to explain that each destiny will have a different flow of events. Aoi herself admits that she cannot see everything simultaneously because it is situation-based and each scenario can change in complex ways. Aoi can only see the "destiny" that happens at that moment in time, not simultaneously for all time ( https://gyazo.com/6192eb41e83c03dd1cfd3d886976a018 ) <- Furthermore, another justification for Aoi's Plot Manipulation is because of her alleged Worldview Holders which would fall into the Slippery Slope Fallacy of only taking the extreme of an event (the highest point). Aoi's ability is only described as being able to change events and the world around her, not the entire world. This is very limited, and Aoi admits herself that she cannot do what she thinks is impossible including people who have High-Fate Value, beings who can be considered to have resistance to fate or Supernatural Luck cannot be affected ( https://gyazo.com/dfc0211ae68d151e0a6568d13b1eb4fd ) <- In the next sheet, the meaning of what is "impossible" for Aoi's ability to do is clarified, the moment when she fights the Reptilian Beast, Aoi admits that she cannot change or resist the existence of the Reptilian Beast especially in the size of its head because of the difference in size and strength so that she needs a physical battle to defeat the monster ( https://gyazo.com/83962dd9bfb60cf5789d61a4a9f6f086 ).

The entire conversation of Volume 2 proves that Aoi's destiny ability is limited. Aoi cannot control up to the Heavenly Record stage, which is a very wrong wank. Especially, statistically Aoi is the weakest Sage ( )
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Probs just miscommunication of the word but Yogiri and the people summoned come from the same world as Nee-Chan Chunibyou.

The second point I’d like to respond to a bit later as I have to get myself a copy of the V2 again. But anyways.

Contextual limitations to an ability aren’t ways to disprove it? Plot manipulation doesn’t need to be unlimited to be able to acquire it in the wiki lol. You make it sound as anything less that unlimited reality warping through the plot manipulation doesn’t qualify for some reason?

You really like to take contextual limitations of an ability as disproving other things actually… the ability for Aoi to use her balance of power under only certain conditions is weird to use to disprove the potency of the ability. Balance of power has conditions that Aoi has too meet; like truly believing what she says she believes and the “world around” her is because it’s what she can cognitively affect. I don’t know why you are playing the pre-conditions of balance of power as a way to nerf it when it never was a limitless reality warping ability. But can you link me where these requirements were added where abilities have to have no conventional limits to be plot manipulation or have greater potency?

Really the only valid concern is your second point.
 
PhantomØ4 said:
Probs just miscommunication of the word but Yogiri and the people summoned come from the same world as Nee-Chan Chunibyou.

The second point I’d like to respond to a bit later as I have to get myself a copy of the V2 again. But anyways.

Contextual limitations to an ability aren’t ways to disprove it? Plot manipulation doesn’t need to be unlimited to be able to acquire it in the wiki lol. You make it sound as anything less that unlimited reality warping through the plot manipulation doesn’t qualify for some reason?

You really like to take contextual limitations of an ability as disproving other things actually… the ability for Aoi to use her balance of power under only certain conditions is weird to use to disprove the potency of the ability. Balance of power has conditions that Aoi has too meet; like truly believing what she says she believes and the “world around” her is because it’s what she can cognitively affect. I don’t know why you are playing the pre-conditions of balance of power as a way to nerf it when it never was a limitless reality warping ability. But can you link me where these requirements were added where abilities have to have no conventional limits to be plot manipulation or have greater potency?
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There is none. I am still asking myself till now
 
PhantomØ4 said:
Probs just miscommunication of the word but Yogiri and the people summoned come from the same world as Nee-Chan Chunibyou.

The second point I’d like to respond to a bit later as I have to get myself a copy of the V2 again. But anyways.

Contextual limitations to an ability aren’t ways to disprove it? Plot manipulation doesn’t need to be unlimited to be able to acquire it in the wiki lol. You make it sound as anything less that unlimited reality warping through the plot manipulation doesn’t qualify for some reason?

You really like to take contextual limitations of an ability as disproving other things actually… the ability for Aoi to use her balance of power under only certain conditions is weird to use to disprove the potency of the ability. Balance of power has conditions that Aoi has too meet; like truly believing what she says she believes and the “world around” her is because it’s what she can cognitively affect. I don’t know why you are playing the pre-conditions of balance of power as a way to nerf it when it never was a limitless reality warping ability. But can you link me where these requirements were added where abilities have to have no conventional limits to be plot manipulation or have greater potency?

Really the only valid concern is your second point.
Click to expand...
What you need is logic, and critical judgement not just what other people say. If a character has the ability to control, alter, a fundamental aspect then there is no more limit from him except being hit by a greater ability. However, the dragon that causes Aoi trouble is the opposite. She's just a normal type of monster that needs to be brute-force defeated because using Sage abilities is no longer useful. And here there is no miscommunication at all, in fact the Sage Power that Aoi adheres to is different from World-View Holders.

Literally the terms of the Manip Plot are manipulating the fundamental aspects and viewing them as fiction, so that everything in fictional reality is just strands that can be manipulated simply. It wasn't my intention to make her have no boundaries, but that's how it is because they see the world as trivial and as controllers who can change everything. The limited conditions would be very strange for Plot Manip users, and since Official Translations, along with Raw-Scans have also shown no indication thereof. You mentioned only my second point is valid? So right now the premise you're using seems to be tarnished with facts, because something that needs a complicated explanation is sure to be easy to doubt the truth of. It would be better if we use Occam's Razor, namely a logical premise that takes judgments based on the simplicity of a thing, if this is controversial then the simplicity is lost. Between stating that Aoi has "fate" or "plot", then it is most likely that Aoi is declared to have more fate users, because the Power of Balance that she has goes there, the precognition that allows her to see the future goes there too.
 
Dread said:
So you think "limited plot manipulation" does not exist for you?
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Literally no. Even if it can exist, Aoi's case wouldn't be in. Limited shouldn't be affected by capabilities, the capabilities should be like the rating is. Dread, if you are thinking about changing standard terminology because of the interpretations differents than the fiction you supports, you lack sense of being neutral. Tbh, rn all of you who supports Aoi only bring 1 evidences that has no correlation at all, and pushing thing so hard.
 
EinelRendezvous said:
What you need is logic, and critical judgement not just what other people say. If a character has the ability to control, alter, a fundamental aspect then there is no more limit from him except being hit by a greater ability. However, the dragon that causes Aoi trouble is the opposite. She's just a normal type of monster that needs to be brute-force defeated because using Sage abilities is no longer useful. And here there is no miscommunication at all, in fact the Sage Power that Aoi adheres to is different from World-View Holders.

Literally the terms of the Manip Plot are manipulating the fundamental aspects and viewing them as fiction, so that everything in fictional reality is just strands that can be manipulated simply. It wasn't my intention to make her have no boundaries, but that's how it is because they see the world as trivial and as controllers who can change everything. The limited conditions would be very strange for Plot Manip users, and since Official Translations, along with Raw-Scans have also shown no indication thereof. You mentioned only my second point is valid? So right now the premise you're using seems to be tarnished with facts, because something that needs a complicated explanation is sure to be easy to doubt the truth of. It would be better if we use Occam's Razor, namely a logical premise that takes judgments based on the simplicity of a thing, if this is controversial then the simplicity is lost. Between stating that Aoi has "fate" or "plot", then it is most likely that Aoi is declared to have more fate users, because the Power of Balance that she has goes there, the precognition that allows her to see the future goes there too.
Click to expand...
That is literally just untrue wiki standards, as much as I would like to engage in a text debate over it throwing out biggest of debate words that we both have researched throughly to waste our time away online— I would rather be doing a million other things so— that’s literally not a requirement written anywhere and a lot of plot manipulation users aren’t actually unlimited like that. You should make a wiki wide ability revision if you disagree tho, you’re welcome to.
 
EinelRendezvous said:
Literally no. Even if it can exist, Aoi's case wouldn't be in. Limited shouldn't be affected by capabilities, the capabilities should be like the rating is. Dread, if you are thinking about changing standard terminology because of the interpretations differents than the fiction you supports, you lack sense of being neutral. Tbh, rn all of you who supports Aoi only bring 1 evidences that has no correlation at all, and pushing thing so hard.
Click to expand...
I need to disappoint you but it exists.
 
PhantomØ4 said:
That is literally just untrue wiki standards, as much as I would like to engage in a text debate over it throwing out biggest of debate words that we both have researched throughly to waste our time away online— I would rather be doing a million other things so— that’s literally not a requirement written anywhere and a lot of plot manipulation users aren’t actually unlimited like that. You should make a wiki wide ability revision if you disagree tho, you’re welcome to.
Click to expand...
Exactly, I have no clue from where he got this. He is thinking plot manipulation is something complicated and godlike.
 
PhantomØ4 said:
That is literally just untrue wiki standards, as much as I would like to engage in a text debate over it throwing out biggest of debate words that we both have researched throughly to waste our time away online— I would rather be doing a million other things so— that’s literally not a requirement written anywhere and a lot of plot manipulation users aren’t actually unlimited like that. You should make a wiki wide ability revision if you disagree tho, you’re welcome to.
Click to expand...
On the other hand, you're the one who made the claim that a limited condition existed and pressured me to change the standards, even though what you're currently doing is like that. You are looking for an example of a character who has a limited condition, not Aoi, that's for sure because she has many controversial conditions that have led to polemics like now. And as I explained, an ability that goes so far as to control the fundamental aspect and control it like fiction, is an ability that definitely has no limits, because it really views reality as a structure that can be changed at a more complex level than the scope of reality.
 
Dread said:
@EinelRendezvous You brought a whole new requirement to prove your point. This is nowhere in standards, even if you call it “it is illogical”. This is fiction.
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Now you've just done a Straw-Man-type Logical Fallacy that looks from a weak line to ignore the strong points that have been given, because even though this is all fiction, there still has to be a standard that categorizes critically and clearly, because consistency plays a role in context. that's in fiction.

and yes, plot manipulation is a god-like ability.
 
Dread said:
@EinelRendezvous To end this, bring proof of this standards you are talking about
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You really like doing Burden of Proof Fallacy. The thing you're doing right now is trying to pressure me with things that don't exist, and I need to prove it even though you should prove it. Those of you who claim that Plot Manipulation has limits to its fiction and can be achieved without the need for divine aspects, then you should prove those standards. It's not that you're acting like "I know that" because to be honest all the arguments you make are just weightless points that just roll over and over again.
 
EinelRendezvous said:
On the other hand, you're the one who made the claim that a limited condition existed and pressured me to change the standards, even though what you're currently doing is like that. You are looking for an example of a character who has a limited condition, not Aoi, that's for sure because she has many controversial conditions that have led to polemics like now. And as I explained, an ability that goes so far as to control the fundamental aspect and control it like fiction, is an ability that definitely has no limits, because it really views reality as a structure that can be changed at a more complex level than the scope of reality.
Click to expand...
You can’t actually prove that final claim with any scans or links or anything funny enough, it is simply how you view it. How am I supposed to argue with you about your own perception of what should qualify or not without it being pointless? I don’t like arguing without a reachable goal lol that is all. I am never gonna convince you of against something that you pulled out of your own head.

It‘a impossible to make a discussion move forwards with no common grounds and as such I press you to change the standard if you disagree with how lax it is; because none of the things you are saying are common grounds on the wiki.
 
Prove it the standard does not exist.

"Plot Manipulation is the ability to control the plot that governs reality. Commonly found in metafictional stories, the plot can be understood as a fundamental aspect of reality once one views that reality as fictional. It is the description of the world that doesn't only describe, but determines, reality itself."

Wiki has explained that description as the ability to see reality that defines and indeed forms what the world is as an aspect that is seen as fictional, if we are beings who control it then it is certain that beings contained in that reality cannot interact and do anything -what to us, because we determine their fate and setting, because we see them as fiction. This is the most important aspect, and it is certain that this part of reality will not be scratched (2). As for Aoi? he can still be injured and will need to use brute-force strategies against him. Based on the explanation of Aoi's ability, her ability is limited and only leads to the "destiny" she sees ( ), the meaning of meta story in these scans ( ) <- does not mean that Aoi controls one's destiny to a fundamental level, but only sees destiny as a metaphor like a movie script. Meta story can mean "a story within a story" and the destiny Aoi sees is a small destiny of the big destiny she sees (the meaning of small destiny here is that she only sees the part of the script that benefits her).
Balance of Power ≠ Plot of Destiny. Here Aoi's ability used to change events is "Balance of Power" and this is more like Subjective Reality with Fate Manipulation, according to Aoi's ability. Scans for Balance of Power: ( )
 
Gotta be honest, All abilities have the aspect of "Non Limit Fallacy" when compared by external aspects, but what we are discussing is the internal aspect, abilities like Plot Manip that control reality and see it completely as fiction. So it doesn't make sense if the ability is "limited" because of the reality he governs. That is already a very wrong premise, and you guys are arguing with me just to twist the terminology that has been set. Ironic, it sounds like you guys don't understand the standard you're using here at all.
 
Can you imagine, if you are the one who controls the reality as a fiction, but you can get "holdback" (limits) by the reality that your control and you see as a fiction? Bro that's a very wrong idea.
 
That is describing the mechanic of plot manipulation, not and I quote “an ability that goes so far as to control the fundamental aspect and control it like fiction, is an ability that definitely has no limits, because it really views reality as a structure that can be changed at a more complex level than the scope of reality.”.

Keep in mind that the limitations of the ability that you name are the pre-conditions for it to activate too and not actual inability to work once activated.
 
EinelRendezvous said:
Can you imagine, if you are the one who controls the reality as a fiction, but you can get "holdback" (limits) by the reality that your control and you see as a fiction? Bro that's a very wrong idea.
Click to expand...
That is reality fiction transcendence tho. Not plot manipulation.
 
EinelRendezvous said:
Prove it the standard does not exist.
Click to expand...
How am I going to prove a standard that does not exist? Pardon me?

Literally here
Furthermore, regarding No-Limits Fallacies: Users can not simply be assumed to bring out any imaginable effect. They are assumed to be limited in both applications and scale to what they demonstrated or can be reasoned to be capable based on reliable statements.
Click to expand...
 
Don’t work yourself about it Dread. He is gonna push to prove the standard doesn’t exist, but that is not really doable aside from linking characters that break one, one just focuses on pressing the other on proving the standard exists and if he can’t we cannot say that it exists and as such can’t really be upheld to that. Proving negatives is just a bait a lot of times lol
 
PhantomØ4 said:
That is reality fiction transcendence tho. Not plot manipulation.
Click to expand...
No. That is the Plot Manip I mean, because based on the context of the ability of the Plot to exist without needing to add a level of cardinality to the cosmology of a fiction, due to aspects that are only deeper than the reach of reality. And what you're referring to here doesn't mean that in the end an ability that sees everything in reality becomes as trivial as fiction, then there's no reason for that reality to hurt or even bother it right? then there is no reason to be "limited" because that is a very wrong premise and does not suit Occam's Razor.

Dread said:
How am I going to prove a standard that does not exist? Pardon me?

Literally here
Click to expand...
Gotta be honest, All abilities have the aspect of "Non Limit Fallacy" when compared by external aspects, but what we are discussing is the internal aspect, abilities like Plot Manip that control reality and see it completely as fiction. So it doesn't make sense if the ability is "limited" because of the reality he governs. That is already a very wrong premise, and you guys are arguing with me just to twist the terminology that has been set. Ironic, it sounds like you guys don't understand the standard you're using here at all. to see reality that defines and indeed forms what the world is as an aspect that is seen as fictional, if we are beings who control it then it is certain that beings contained in that reality cannot interact and do anything -what to us, because we determine their fate and setting, because we see them as fiction. This is the most important aspect, and it is certain that this part of reality will not be scratched (2)

That's enough for you who just do some circularity.
 
PhantomØ4 said:
Don’t work yourself about it Dread. He is gonna push to prove the standard doesn’t exist, but that is not really doable aside from linking characters that break one, one just focuses on pressing the other on proving the standard exists and if he can’t we cannot say that it exists and as such can’t really be upheld to that. Proving negatives is just a bait a lot of times lol
Click to expand...
Im pressing you to use your common sense, because you take my words of Plot Manip has no boundary to a very wrong interpretation, my answer above about it's internally is enough. You need to prove it, about THE EXISTENCE OF LIMITED PLOT MANIP.
 
PhantomØ4 said:
Don’t work yourself about it Dread. He is gonna push to prove the standard doesn’t exist, but that is not really doable aside from linking characters that break one, one just focuses on pressing the other on proving the standard exists and if he can’t we cannot say that it exists and as such can’t really be upheld to that. Proving negatives is just a bait a lot of times lol
Click to expand...
You are right. I have no clue why I need to debate based on a nonexistent standard.
 
You know, funnily you guys have no more evidences to disprove my consistency of evidence. You guys literally STRAWMANNING by make me distracted to prove some non-existant standards.

Here's the proof:
PhantomØ4 said:
Don’t work yourself about it Dread. He is gonna push to prove the standard doesn’t exist, but that is not really doable aside from linking characters that break one, one just focuses on pressing the other on proving the standard exists and if he can’t we cannot say that it exists and as such can’t really be upheld to that. Proving negatives is just a bait a lot of times lol
Click to expand...
Funny enough. Why don't you act mature and try to accept things if you can't disprove the another claim rather going on strawman? Or taking more evidences to support your claims. You guys literally circled only for distracting me. Which is odd.
 
Let's make it easy shall we. Since you guys who oppose me thinks that Aoi has plot manip. I want some strong evidences.

1. Prove it Aoi is a World-View Holders, not just doin' some random same judgement by other Fujitaka verse such as that chuunibyou series.
2. Prove it there's an existence of limited plot-manip, and a plot user that can be harmed by the realities he/she governs.
3. Prove it that the intentional of Author has a same definition of plot like us.
 
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