Yogiri Takatou and Aoi Hayanose, mostly others that get scaled to Plot Manipulation downgrade to Fate Manipulation.

[Duedate8898]

Cool, you can say this, but there needs to also be physical evidence provided alongside it both here and within the profiles themselves. Because the lack of scans supporting the opposition to the OP is a big problem both for the arguments against it but also for the quality of the profiles.

 

[PhantomØ4]

Second one is where Monika talks about it. Yuri isn’t really the sole authority on Wolrdviews and most others subscribe to the metastructure such as the outers and mechanics like Yuichi beating super protagonist man because his position in the story is greater than that of a Protagonist.

Unfortunately Nee-Chan Chunniibyou was created like 5 years ago by Celestial Pegasus and hasn’t been touched much at all by anyone else since then so they really need some scans added. My lack of free time to revise the profiles in detail is a bit annoying— Regardless there should be some basic maintenance done to them I suppose.

 

[Duedate8898]

The first scan is talking more about acausality than anything plot related and the usage of the word meta isn't really enough to say its talking about the world actually being a plot itself.

Monika just chooses to view things as if they are stories, she doesn't say they are or considers that the truth of the matter. In fact, she seems to be using destiny and story interchangeably in the scan you're providing. The scan you've provided only furthers the idea of this being subjective reality while comparing their lives to a plot.

Plot manipulation isn't just about looking at reality as if it was a plot, but actually manipulating the plot of the story itself. I'm failing to see how your provided scans are illustrating manipulating the plot.

 

[Delta333]

In fact, she seems to be using destiny and story interchangeably in the scan you're providing.

What's the point here?

 

[Duedate8898]

What's the point here?

By using them interchangeably, it points towards the usage of story as being analogous instead of literal. Which goes against the idea of them possessing plot manipulation

 

[Delta333]

By using them interchangeably, it points towards the usage of story as being analogous instead of literal. Which goes against the idea of them possessing plot manipulation

Or it just means controlling fate is the application of the plot hax in verse, and the plot manip page also says that fate hax is possible use.

 

[Duedate8898]

Yes, the plot manipulation page does point out you can manipulate fate through manipulating the plot. However, it also specifically calls out using plot as a metaphor (or analogy in this case) is not grounds for plot manipulation to be given.

All the scans provided thus far use plot/story in an analogous sense. "There are few different schools of thoughts in terms of how worldviews are perceived, but I view them as stories." and "To say that it's a story is more a figure of speech." are both analogous in the context of the scans that have been shown. They are not conclusive separate and combining these scans together, it only furthers the idea that no one is manipulating the plot of these stories in actuality

 

[PhantomØ4]

The scan I provided didn’t use it interchangeably. I think if anything you just have a misunderstanding with using Fate and Destiny interchangeably when they are different words dealing with similar concepts but ultimately different.

Destiny is essentially where one is supposed to end up, the end of things

You can look it up yourself, it’s a very common thing. If you get kicked out of your story you loose your destiny. Is that not correct? Your destiny can’t be different from where your story leads you, you are just following it.

To call it interchangeable is weird as it literally would be impossible to replace the terminology in the sentence without change in meaning.

"If someone inside their destiny realizes they're in a destiny, the destiny loses its
metastructure and ceases to exist. So the world kicks anyone who
becomes aware of their destiny out of the destiny. Out of their story.”

This is a very literal example but you can’t make the destiny or fate replacement make sense without changing the structure of the paragraph considerably. Specially every time people talk about the meta-structure or meta-level.

 

[Delta333]

Whether they're interchangeable or not it doesn't even create contradiction anyways, just stop that argument tbh.

 

[Duedate8898]

The scan I provided didn’t use it interchangeably. I think if anything you just have a misunderstanding with using Fate and Destiny interchangeably when they are different words dealing with similar concepts but ultimately different.

Destiny is essentially where one is supposed to end up, the end of things

You can look it up yourself, it’s a very common thing. If you get kicked out of your story you loose your destiny. Is that not correct? Your destiny can’t be different from where your story leads you, you are just following it.

To call it interchangeable is weird as it literally would be impossible to replace the terminology in the sentence without change in meaning.

"If someone inside their destiny realizes they're in a destiny, the destiny loses its
metastructure and ceases to exist. So the world kicks anyone who
becomes aware of their destiny out of the destiny. Out of their story.”

This is a very literal example but you can’t make the destiny or fate replacement make sense without changing the structure of the paragraph considerably. Specially every time people talk about the meta-structure or meta-level.

You just picked one of the definitions of destiny, I can do that too. Destiny can also mean: the events that will necessarily happen to a particular person or thing in the future. Which would fit in the context we're looking at now.

And while it looks nonsensicial, that sentence you put above does actually still work. Not to mention the repetition at the end. "So the world kicks anyone who becomes aware of their story out of the story. Out of their destiny." That's directly pointing towards destiny and story being used interchangeably.

And the paragraph can still read the same without the meaning changing especially since meta-structure and meta-level don't exclusively mean something related to plot, meta as a prefix alludes towards something being different or greater. Which when talking about how one's destiny can be dominated by another, makes sense because there is a greater destiny being displayed in these instances.

Whether they're interchangeable or not it doesn't even create contradiction anyways, just stop that argument tbh.

And the contradiction doesn't come from those words being interchangible in that scan. The contraction comes from the scan on the currently accepted profiles of the wiki, having a statement that directly contradicts anyone possessing plot manipulation in the setting. This scan, and until something else is presented to invalidate it, I'm going to use it as an argument because it directly disproves the notion being argued by the opposition here.

 

[Elizhaa]

And the contradiction doesn't come from those words being interchangible in that scan. The contraction comes from the scan on the currently accepted profiles of the wiki, having a statement that directly contradicts anyone possessing plot manipulation in the setting. This scan, and until something else is presented to invalidate it, I'm going to use it as an argument because it directly disproves the notion being argued by the opposition here.

The protagonist role here, as pointed out by Ende could possibly invalidate the notion.

 

[Bahaha]

The protagonist role here, as pointed out by Ende could possibly invalidate the notion.

Elizhaa, the second scan uses metaphors and simile. They use simile in "as if he were a protagonist of their stories", then began to use metaphors, in the literal definition, to compare him to a light novel or video game protagonist. His ability is used in comparison to protagonists but is never mentioned to actually be a protagonist nor manipulating the fundamentals of plot to be a protagonist.
In fact, his ability literally uses "destiny" to explain his new power. quote "He could exist outside of the destiny he'd be born into, and get involved in the destiny of others without realizing it." The fact this "protagonist", who I am assuming to be a Japanese person, later uses metaphors to describe the new ability as "events" (like game events) makes me question the authenticity of any "plot" power in this verse.
Instead of invalidating @Duedate8898's arguments, the scan helps and provides more evidence for him.

 

[Elizhaa]

Elizhaa, the second scan uses metaphors and simile. They use simile in "as if he were a protagonist of their stories", then began to use metaphors, in the literal definition, to compare him to a light novel or video game protagonist. His ability is used in comparison to protagonists but is never mentioned to actually be a protagonist nor manipulating the fundamentals of plot to be a protagonist.
In fact, his ability literally uses "destiny" to explain his new power. quote "He could exist outside of the destiny he'd be born into, and get involved in the destiny of others without realizing it." The fact this "protagonist", who I am assuming to be a Japanese person, later uses metaphors to describe the new ability as "events" (like game events) makes me question the authenticity of any "plot" power in this verse.
Instead of invalidating @Duedate8898's arguments, the scan helps and provides more evidence for him.

The quote more or less shows that stories by not being metaphors are not necessarily impossible as people like Ende think. Ryoma is mentioned to be a protagonist later, with more context.
If characters make events appear similar to game events, at face value it is usually plot manipulation; game events are largely analogous with the plot.

 

[Bahaha]

The quote more or less shows that stories by not being metaphors are not necessarily impossible as people like Ende think. Ryoma is mentioned to be a protagonist later, with more context.

But Elizhaa, the scan Duedate posted showed that "story" and "plot" mentioned in the series are figure of speeches used by the character to describe their worldviews. This notion is supported many times, with "destiny" being used interchangeably with "plot", however what makes this worse is that the NARRATOR states their abilities are "destiny" based, while the characters think of them as "plot". The Narrator tells us Ryoma's new ability is "He could exist outside of the destiny he'd be born into, and get involved in the destiny of others without realizing it." while Ryoma tells us his ability is "game events". This is contradicting, and I would take narrator's words more than a Japanese high school student, I am assuming that he is a Japanese high school student who likes to read/play a lot because of his dialectal use of light novel, video game "protagonists", and "game events".

These all seem very much fate manipulation rather than plot manipulation. The characters have used metaphors to explain their powers, and Duedate's scan outright tells us "Story" and "Plot" are figure of speeches, while the narrator tells us differently from the characters. It is clearer to assume these powers more likely manipulate "Destiny"/fate than the assumption of "plot", which only have been called in metaphors, as it is more logical.

If characters make events appear similar to game events, at face value it is usually plot manipulation; game events are largely analogous with the plot.

Here is the thing, the narrator tells us it manipulates "destiny", while the Ryoma tells us it is like a game event. The characters had used metaphors to explain their abilities, furthermore the character in question being a Japanese student who has played video games and read light novels who uses those specific dialect. Duedate has bought me, that this is more destiny/fate manipulation than the currently plot manipulation.

 

[ImmortalDread]

It was only on one conversation, you can't be seriously thinking, it applies in every speech in the whole series. This is bad refutation honestly. There is action done and proves it is plot manipulation. Again, fate/causality/event manipulation through metaficional elements can be plot manipulation.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Was asked to reply here, but honestly don't really care either way, but i do find it amusing Neechan is coming under the microscope due to being related to its more controversial sister series.

Haven't touched the profiles for Neechan in years, so the profiles do need work, anyway, stuff i have saved up on plot/destiny:

When Makina used her power, it talked about stories such as a death game thriller

“Yuichi Sakaki! If you move from that spot, you will die!” she commanded,
setting a new rule for her closed space.
In a typical death game thriller, ridiculous rules were enforced onto the
participants, but they were neutral and impartial. The story wouldn’t work if
they weren’t; there was nothing interesting about a story where the rules kept
changing on the fly.
But in Makina’s case, such principles were self-imposed. She only
employed them for her own amusement, which meant that if she felt like it, she
could always change the rules at any time.
Makina waited for the power of her words to activate. But Yuichi kept
walking forward.-Volume 4, Chapter 7

At least law manipulation there, however it does indeed go on to mention when Yuichi resists Makina's ability that Outers manipulate destiny

This time, he didn’t even act like his heart had stopped. He just kept walking
towards Makina.
“Impossible...” she whispered. Why hadn’t it worked?
Yuichi answered, as if he’d read her mind. “The same move won’t work
twice.”

“Ah...” How could he claim that? Yet, Makina realized, there might be
worldviews where such rules were in place. Yuichi Sakaki seemed to believe it
as a fundamental law of the universe. For him, it went without saying. He didn’t
have a moment’s doubt.
“Yuichi Sakaki cannot get within five meters of Makina Shikitani!” she
shouted.
“To hell with your damn rules!” Yuichi barked, his voice loud enough to
shake the tower.
Then, without a pause, he stepped within a five meter radius of Makina.
Makina was dumbstruck. She had no idea what was happening.
“I don’t have to follow any stupid rules you set on a whim,” said Yuichi.
“What gives you the right to do that, anyway? Because you’re an Outer? You
have the power to control destiny? To hell with that! I don’t have to go along
with anything you say!”
What was playing out before Makina’s eyes flipped her understanding of
the world completely on its head. She had lived for a long time, and she had
acquired enormous knowledge in that time, through experience. Yet nothing
she had seen would have ever suggested that a person could nullify her powers
solely with willpower and determination.-Volume 4, Chapter 7

It then goes on to say Makina lost cause she is just another character in a story

“Now, as for why your abilities didn’t work?” Ende asked. “It’s simple. You
ended up thinking, ‘This might not work,’ didn’t you? The moment Yuichi
Sakaki revived himself, your worldview was shaken. It was then consumed by
his own. That’s how worldviews work. Strength comes from certainty. When
certainty wavers, your worldview becomes open to distortion.”
“Ah... I see,” Makina said. “Even though I’m an Outer, I become just another
character in a story...”-Volume 4, Epilogue

Ryoma with his cards can choose what happens next, and it mentions plot convenience and how events go in the direction the author wants it to

“Plot convenience doesn’t mean that the story always proceeds in ways convenient for the protagonist,” he told her. “It means, more precisely, that events will conveniently occur to move the story in the direction the writer wants it to go. Which means I don’t actually know if things are proceeding in my favor, do I?” “That’s true,” Ende said. There are unlucky protagonists out there where nothing they do works out, and they always end up at rock bottom. So how do you use those cards?” Ende looked and saw that all the cards had the same pattern to them. They probably had two sides. “These are event cards,” he said. “They let me choose what’s going to happen next.” -Volume 7, Prologue

Ryoma's ability is said to be more direct than an Outers which nudges destiny in their favor, influencing causality itself

A black hole opened in the ceiling of Ende’s library. A girl fell from it, and Ryoma hurried to catch her. “Amazing... it really takes effect that quickly?” Ende was impressed. When an Outer controlled destiny, they basically had to nudge the related entities into place over time, but Ryoma’s ability was completely direct, influencing the principles of causality themselves-Volume 7, Prologue

Which later doesn't work on Yuichi despite Ryoma's protagonist ability.

“That’s... strange,” Ryoma murmured. “It wasn’t supposed to go that
way... you were supposed to die as part of a demonstration of the power I
awakened as a result of the death of someone close to me. I’m the
protagonist... how could this happen?”
Saying that much must have been considerably painful for Ryoma, and
Yuichi couldn’t understand why he’d bothered. He really must have found it
all utterly inconceivable.
“Whoever said a protagonist can’t lose?” Yuichi snapped. “There are
plenty of bad-end stories out there.”
Yuichi wasn’t sure whether Ryoma had accepted that explanation or not,
but either way, the man fell unconscious directly afterwards.
Yuichi looked over at Ende, who was sitting in a seat some distance away.
He thought she would be frustrated, but she seemed as fascinated by the
proceedings as ever. She even applauded Yuichi.
“Wow, I guess a protagonist won’t work either. I had a feeling that might
be the case, of course... but overturning something like that really took a lot
of power.”-Volume 7, Chapter 4

Do with all that what you will, i have no stake here.

 

[Abstractly_a_Protagonist]

But Elizhaa, the scan Duedate posted showed that "story" and "plot" mentioned in the series are figure of speeches used by the character to describe their worldviews.

These all seem very much fate manipulation rather than plot manipulation. The characters have used metaphors to explain their powers, and Duedate's scan outright tells us "Story" and "Plot" are figure of speeches, while the narrator tells us differently from the characters. It is clearer to assume these powers more likely manipulate "Destiny"/fate than the assumption of "plot", which only have been called in metaphors, as it is more logical.

I want to point out.

While Yuri is indeed not lying, we shouldn't take her statement and view to be absolute truth.
This is because Yuri is not a Worlview Holder at all.



Here she says, if she manage to kill Aiko: "I can create a dark world of anthromorphs centered around me!”

This indicate Yuri is not a World View Holder, and her knowledge regarding Worldview is limited.
She want to become a Worldview Holder, but she is not. Thus she want to take that place from whom she believe to be the Worldview Holder of Antromorphs and any other similiar creature, Aiko. Yuri was even willing to kill Aiko, her classmate for it despite no guarantee.

She also was talking to Takashi, a normal person who has no prior knowledge about Worldview and any other meta-concept. Takashi was just a playboy she pick up on the street with potential to become werewolf. The moment Yuri mention the world as story, Takashi immediately became skeptical to believe the concept.

The dialogue I quote in the scan shown how Takashi suddenly become skeptical, and distrustful of Yuri.

Hence Yuri decide to pedal back. This is the reason why she suddenly use, "As figure of speech..." She want to get him on her side, but trying to convince a nobody that he is merely a character inside a story would have her viewed as crazy, rather than winning his support.

I believe we should treat her statement at the time of that scene as statement option 1 because she only talk about what she heard and informed. She never truly experience them as Worldview Holder herself, she doesn't talk from experience but from hearsay.

Are we going to say that statement that came from someone who is not even a Worldview Holder and are obsessed with becoming one is more credible and reliable than Ryoma who is not only a Worldview Holder, but someone so special that he is heralded with the label of Protagonist?

I'll get to the rest of the argument as I wrote this down.

What is a Label?

A label is the role someone hold inside a world view, representing their role in the story/world view..
The eyes she mentioned are named, Soul Reader.

The label above the person's head reveals their characteristic or, to be more precise, the kind of character they are presented.
The moment Yuichi awaken his Soul Reader, he start to sees all kind of label: Antromorphs, Zombies, Vampires, Dating Sim Childhood friend, Serial Killers, etc.

These label are not just for show. It truly entails those people characteristic.
Example:

Yuri Konishi has the label of Antromorph, and later we see her secret that she can transform into an Antromorph (Cat).
Aiko Noro has the label of Vampire, and later we found out she's a Vampire.
Adult Dating Sim Protagonist (No name) are actually what we think, he's the MC of Adult Game.

Now that we've establish that the Label is real, and they truly entails what those people roles in the world.
Next, It's about Ryoma.

The Protagonist, Ryoma Takei.

His ability is used in comparison to protagonists but is never mentioned to actually be a protagonist nor manipulating the fundamentals of plot to be a protagonist.
In fact, his ability literally uses "destiny" to explain his new power. quote "He could exist outside of the destiny he'd be born into, and get involved in the destiny of others without realizing it." The fact this "protagonist", who I am assuming to be a Japanese person, later uses metaphors to describe the new ability as "events" (like game events) makes me question the authenticity of any "plot" power in this verse.

As we've established, the meaning of the label is real and thus the label of Protagonist Ryoma held is also real.
The scan Elizhaa sent, here.

This was Ryoma Takei, the participant that Ende had chosen so that she could meddle in the war. He had a trait that caused him to be caught up in all sorts of strange incidents, as well as the ability to resolve those incidents as if he were the protagonist of their stories. He was, in effect, an avatar of plot convenience, and she had decided to make use of this.

This statement is not a metaphor at all, since Ryoma had been through a ridiculous number of scenario because of his role as the "Protagonist" and have what the in-verse character called, "The Protagonist effect."



Next we go to show the credibility of Ryoma's role as Protagonist.
Ryoma has been to countless other world (Isekai) and intertwine with many other plot/story.



Here we see Ryoma rambling on how many times he had get mixed up with many stories: Isekai, Space War, and including VRMMO where "If you die in-game, you die in real life."



And if Ryoma aren't actively participating in the plot he is drawn into, the story/plot would moved on without him and end up in Bad-End scenario.

The Narrator tells us Ryoma's new ability is "He could exist outside of the destiny he'd be born into, and get involved in the destiny of others without realizing it."

The Destiny here refer to Plot.
As Celestial Pegasus has said, Plot/Destiny.

This is refering to Ryoma's trait as Protagonist where he could get mixed up with so many plot/scenario: Defeating demon lord, Participating in Space War, VRMMO, and many other event. This is also the reason why Ryoma has so many friends across the multiverse.

Ryoma Event Cards
After Ryoma realize and acknowledge the existence of his role as the protagonist, by viewing reality as stories Ryoma awaken new ability (The Event Cards):

Plot Manipulation Usage:

• Users may be able to determine how things will proceed by writing into the plot what is going to happen (emulating fate, causality and/or probability manipulation).
• Users may be able to control the action and/or thoughts of others by writing what they do or think into the plot.

Event Cards emulating fate and controlling other's action, and causality

• Users may be able to retroactively change the past, by changing what is recorded about the past in the plot.

Event Cards effect capable of rewriting what had already happened.

a Japanese high school student, I am assuming that he is a Japanese high school student who likes to read/play a lot because of his dialectal use of light novel, video game "protagonists", and "game events".

The characters had used metaphors to explain their abilities, furthermore the character in question being a Japanese student who has played video games and read light novels who uses those specific dialect.

And as you said yourself, this is only an assumption.
This claim has no evidence to suggest we should think this way other than the assumption that: "Ryoma is a highschool japanese student who likes to read/play a lot."

There's no evidence, only assumption and headcanon.
The burden of proof is on you to present that Ryoma likes to read/play a lot of Light novel, games, etc. and Event Card is only Fate manipulation.

 

[ImmortalDread]

I drop my disagreement officially for my reasons and @Elizhaa and @Overlord_THE_END reasons as well while not obviously excluding all people who helped.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Interesting how this argument has moved from:

The translations don't mention plot

Plot is just being used metaphorically

Neechan isn't part of Instant Death

Plot Manipulation isn't a thing in Neechan either, it's just fate and Ryoma is basically just a chuuni.

Also i am getting deja vu here, hasn't someone attempted this exact topic before? Seems controversial, at the least with the Neechan portion, @Overlord_THE_END makes a pretty convincing argument imo.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Interesting how this argument has moved from:

The translations don't mention plot

Plot is just being used metaphorically

Neechan isn't part of Instant Death

Plot Manipulation isn't a thing in Neechan either, it's just fate and Ryoma is basically just a chuuni.

Ayo, don't exclude the argument of “New standards that does not even exist in Plot manipulation does not fit criteria”, because this one was funny honestly.

Also i am getting deja vu here, hasn't someone attempted this exact topic before? Seems controversial, at the least with the Neechan portion, @Overlord_THE_END makes a pretty convincing argument imo.

Agreed, @Overlord_THE_END makes most sense here tho.

 

[Abstractly_a_Protagonist]

“New standards that does not even exist in Plot manipulation does not fit criteria”

I'm still asking myself to this day if you need R>F transcendence and Unlimited power to get plot manipulation.

Anyway, I finished Nee-chan 7 volumes under a week to write that essay.
And I rest my case here.

For now...

 

[Elizhaa]

It has been with weeks with no counterarguments or further replies; I will close the thread.