Small upgrade to Tensura

[KuramaKyubee]

Read my reply i never disgreed with abstract existence. This thread only talks about abstract existence where is CM type 1 proof?

You ask about scans and proof how demons are type 1 concepts, and that scans related about what you ask. literally demons concepts that are abstract, and how you denied destroy abstract things based on type 1 concepts are not cm type 1??

My analogiez, Spirits of darkness are type 1 concepts, demons are fragments of spirits darkness (abstract concepts). does that make sense if you remove demons but spirits of darkness still exist should have cm type 1?.

 

[Peak]

for now, i will change from CM 1 to CM 3 with holy magic

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

You ask about scans and proof how demons are type 1 concepts, and that scans related about what you ask. literally demons concepts that are abstract, and how you denied destroy abstract things based on type 1 concepts are not cm type 1??

That's not how type 1 concepts works don't see anything governing something here

My analogiez, Spirits of darkness are type 1 concepts, demons are fragments of spirits darkness (abstract concepts). does that make sense if you remove demons but spirits of darkness still exist should have cm type 1?.

I accept that as abstract existence but not CM type 1. It is more like CM type 3 or just concepts like dread said

 

[Peak]

yes, the great spirits are type 1 concepts because they govern all reality, but angels and demons do not do the same thing, they are just concepts derived from the great spirits

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

yes, the great spirits are type 1 concepts because they govern all reality, but angels and demons do not do the same thing, they are just concepts derived from the great spirits

Yes now you get my point. This is what I was always trying to say. Definitely Spirit are type 1 concepts as they govern something but Demons and Angels are just concepts derived from them. They are Conceptual existence but don't govern anything. So they kinda fall under unknown catagory.

 

[Hellscream]

I'm not very knowledgeable on CM1, so i'll leave my opinion out of that until i do more research.

 

[Peak]

Yes now you get my point. This is what I was always trying to say. Definitely Spirit are type 1 concepts as they govern something but Demons and Angels are just concepts derived from them. They are Conceptual existence but don't govern anything. So they kinda fall under unknown catagory.

I was confused to understand why you said CM (conceptual manipulation) when I was just talking about their existence, but then I understood

 

[Starfeldway]

In this CRT I will try to give:
1.abstract existence type 1 to spirit lifeforms.
2.high-godly regeneration (type 2 information) for spirit lifeforms, demons and angels
3.high-godly regeneration (type 1 concept) to Rimuru


Abstract existence type 1

Spiritual life forms live as a soul and do not need a physical body


In fact, soul is a lump of information

So that would make spiritual life an abstract existence because they exist as souls that are information.

high-godly regeneration(type 2 information)

Actually this is also quite simple, spirit life forms can regenerate as long as the core is not destroyed

In that case it would be high-godly regeneration, as they can regenerate even after having their body, mind and soul/information erased, as long as the core is not destroyed.

High-godly regeneration(concept)

As we know, angels and demons(concepts) have high-godly overtime

However, Venom(demon) can instantly regenerate because of the 'Regenerator' skill he has

Venom is Rimuru's subordinate and Rimuru can use all of his subordinates' skills because of the food chain, so he should have solid high-godly regeneration (concept).


Type 3 conceptual manipulation for holy magic


I was given another suggestion to add type 1 conceptual manipulation for holy magic users, Holy magic is primarily used to destroy demons, so characters like Hinata who use Desintegration or any other holy magic should have type 1 conceptual manipulation.



Agree: TheGreatJedi13(with all), LoganKroos(with AE type 1), Simply(with AE type 1 and HGR type information and conceptual), Dread(with AE type 1 and HGR conceptual for angels and demons), Catpija((with AE and HGR conceptual for angels and demons), BlackCat(with AE type 1), Mizuki67(with all)



Disagree: Dread (with CM 1 for holy magic and HGR type 2 information), Hellscream(with HGR), BlackCat(with CM 1 for holy magic)



Neutral: Neoxxi16, Simply(with CM 1 for holy magic), Catpija(with CM 1 for holy magic), BlackCat(with HGR)

I only agree on ae type 1 I'm neutral on the rest

 

[ImmortalDread]

You ask about scans and proof how demons are type 1 concepts, and that scans related about what you ask. literally demons concepts that are abstract, and how you denied destroy abstract things based on type 1 concepts are not cm type 1??

My analogiez, Spirits of darkness are type 1 concepts, demons are fragments of spirits darkness (abstract concepts). does that make sense if you remove demons but spirits of darkness still exist should have cm type 1?.

Not type 1

 

[ImmortalDread]

I have no clue who said that demons and Angel's are CM 1. Simply there is no proof they govern anything independently from scope of reality. In fact, we only had two scans supporting AE type 1.

 

[Starfeldway]

I have no clue who said that demons and Angel's are CM 1. Simply there is no proof they govern anything independently from scope of reality. In fact, we only had two scans supporting AE type 1.

we could get cm1 manipulation for disintegration users tho

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

demons and angels are (derived from) a part of the great spirits of light and darkness (Type 1 concepts) and the great spirits are also the source of their power so that should give them HGR (type 1 concept)

That's not type 1 at all. They are literally deriving and needing that concept as source.

Type 1 is being independent from anything. Yet they derived from being part of a type 1concept and needs them to exist. Thats not very independent at all

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

we could get cm1 manipulation for disintegration users tho

CM type 1 governs something independent of reality which is it governing. That's not CM type 1.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Now comes the question whether they are type 2 or type 3. If you cannot prove they are at least type 2 then they cannot get HGR from conceptual regeneration because type 3 would requires some more evidence to allow it to qualify as something that grants them HGR

 

[ImmortalDread]

In my opinion, type 2 is more reasonable than type 3 (regarding demons and Angels)

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Type requires them to govern a concept in reality that reality depends on. Both type 2 and type 3 can be derived from type 1 concepts so they need to prove it.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

In my opinion, type 2 is more reasonable than type 3 (regarding demons and Angels)

Type 2 requires almost same attributes like type 1. This seems to not govern anything in reality but they exists as Conceptual forms. As @TheGreatJedi13 said need more context to prove its even type3.
But Regenerating from destruction of information type 2 is good for high godly regeneration. But adding Conceptual Manipulation is no no.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Type 2 requires almost same attributes like type 1. This seems to not govern anything in reality but they exists as Conceptual forms. As @TheGreatJedi13 said need more context to prove its even type3.
But Regenerating from destruction of information type 2 is good for high godly regeneration. But adding Conceptual Manipulation is no no.

They still exist as a dependent. I don't have any issues with CM type 2. CM type 3 and type 1 can't be those.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

They still exist as a dependent. I don't have any issues with CM type 2. CM type 3 and type 1 can't be those.

Type 2 still govern something but here Demons and Angels don't govern anything. They exists as Conceptual existence but no further explanation is given.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Type 2 still govern something but here Demons and Angels don't govern anything. They exists as Conceptual existence but no further explanation is given.

True. Honestly, as I like the series, I can't like and say they govern. They are naturally AE type 1 without any further explanation.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

True. Honestly, as I like the series, I can't like and say they govern. They are naturally AE type 1 without any further explanation.

Yeah.

 

[Sisyphusx]

That's not type 1 at all. They are literally deriving and needing that concept as source.

Type 1 is being independent from anything. Yet they derived from being part of a type 1concept and needs them to exist. Thats not very independent at all

I'm not proving that to begin with
I was just answering his question "if demons and angels are conceptual beings or not" and as already said in the thread they are conceptual beings but an unknown type

 

[ImmortalDread]

Elde recognizes them as AE type 1, he is only disagreeing it is type 1 or type 2, which in my opinion he is right about it. That's it.

 

[Sisyphusx]

I agree with AE1
Disagree with HGR (Type 2 information) FRA
Neutral with HGR (conceptual) and CM3 for holy magic

 

[Peak]

I didn't even know type 3 concepts couldn't grant HGR lol


Now we must wait for some admin

 

[Hellscream]

Afaik, only type 1 and 2 can grant HGR

 

[ImmortalDread]

Reasonable, since type 3 are personal concepts.

 

[Peak]

although I don't understand the logic very well, as long as they regenerate the concepts themselves then I would consider it valid, but that's ok

 

[ImmortalDread]

although I don't understand the logic very well, as long as they regenerate the concepts themselves then I would consider it valid, but that's ok

About Concept type 3?

 

[Peak]

About Concept type 3?

yeah, I wanted to know why

 

[ImmortalDread]

yeah, I wanted to know why

They nowhere govern reality by any means. If you're a type 3, you don't meet the same standards as type 1 or type 2, such as personal concepts that continue to govern the object in question, or concepts that aren't elaborated upon.

 

[Peak]

They nowhere govern reality by any means. If you're a type 3, you don't meet the same standards as type 1 or type 2, such as personal concepts that continue to govern the object in question, or concepts that aren't elaborated upon.

I see, I'll check with the other supporters if they have anything to add on this, if not, I think I'll reduce the CRT to just abstract existence and CM type 3

 

[Starfeldway]

CM type 1 governs something independent of reality which is it governing. That's not CM type 1.

nah I know cm1 could also be gotten if you can affect a concept that govern every aspect of reality....
yes I can assure you disintegration users have this ability to affect cm1 making them cm1

 

[ImmortalDread]

nah I know cm1 could also be gotten if you can affect a concept that govern every aspect of reality....
yes I can assure you disintegration users have this ability to affect cm1 making them cm1

Pretty sure he is talking about HGR concept type 1. AE type 1 Demons/Angels did not get CM 1. Rather, unknown.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

nah I know cm1 could also be gotten if you can affect a concept that govern every aspect of reality....
yes I can assure you disintegration users have this ability to affect cm1 making them cm1

That's not how it works.

 

[Peak]

I actually found something that might help, definitely demons and angels are type 1 concepts, that's because they are like spirits

This world was the Underworld. In other words, this world could also be called Hell.
It was the Spiritual World, the home of demons that didn’t possess a physical body.
I was inside such world.
I seemed to be a Lesser Demon.
Demons are an existence like spirits or angels. It seemed to be an existence that received receives power from the spirit of Darkness, and specialized in the demonic attribute.
Similarly, the Angel specialized in the holy attribute of the spirit of Light, the exception to this seemed to be called a Spirit."

In this context, the spirits referred to are the great spirits, as you can see with them saying about the spirit of darkness next, and obviously I should add that it's not something like "demons are derivatives" or "demons are fragments" but rather a direct comparison, so I think this should be valid, I actually wondered why HGR overtime had been accepted into the profile earlier and that was probably the reason

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

It seemed to be an existence that received receives power from the spirit of Darkness

the Angel specialized in the holy attribute of the spirit of Light

its not a direct comparison when it literally said the existence receives power from Spirit of Darkness
then later on only talked about angels which is for spirit of light
the only one getting confirmed here is Spirits themselves which is an exception.

The sentence literally said. They are like A and B. They do this just like A. but B is an exception. which points out B is the Great Spirit but is an exception with a difference despite being like They

 

[Peak]

its not a direct comparison when it literally said the existence receives power from Spirit of Darkness
then later on only talked about angels which is for spirit of light
the only one getting confirmed here is Spirits themselves which is an exception.

The sentence literally said. They are like A and B. They do this just like A. but B is an exception. which points out B is the Great Spirit but is an exception with a difference despite being like They

this only refers to their power, as they receive powers from the great spirits, in this case referring to attributes (like demons receiving demonic attribute), they use this example, and even if demons and angels are dependent on spirits, isn't that just immortality?

 

[Peak]

if it were the way you said, it would be a clear contradiction, as they would be equal to spirits, but then say that spirits are the exception? This is because the powers referred to are about the attributes

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

No. if they are dependent on something to define themselves such as attribute or powers. then they definitely do not fit Type 1.
Type 1 is strictly being independent of the reality they govern

if it were the way you said, it would be a clear contradiction, as they would be equal to spirits, but then say that spirits are the exception? This is because the powers referred to are about the attributes

it's not a contradiction. I can say Deku is similar to/just like Gon and Goku. with all 3 being shounen protagonists which are truth then elaborate pointing out Deku and Gon as young characters and Goku is an exception to that which is also a truth that doesn't contradict the initial statement