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Tensura - Some more Speed stuff
- Thread starter AlexSamDen
- Start date
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When will you send them your summary?
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Bump
Explosion-Proximity
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This is taking painfully long
Astral_Trinity439
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Ya'll be patient, and be glad this hasn't turned into a months-old bump session 
Explosion-Proximity
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Lets pray that doesnt happenYa'll be patient, and be glad this hasn't turned into a months-old bump session
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Is all this time just to write a 10-point summary?
Problems with skill..
Problems with skill..
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Some people need a lifetime to buy milk. Be more understanding.
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This is not a problem when dealing with immea speed, since it does not take time into account
Astral_Trinity439
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eh, it's just agreed that it should at best be 10 points, but can be less if one believes that less than 10 points already summarize their arguments well enough.
Took me about 3 hours to make (time taken to assemble all the scans included) but can't say for others
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I feel like the opposition purposely not sending any summaries so that this CRT gets delayed to the point of never getting concluded. Cant we send our own summaries to the staffs in their dms directly?
Astral_Trinity439
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That's what we agreed to, and our side already sent theirs
Anyways, the other side may have been busy irl so let's not be hasty.
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Then they can notify us when they can send the summaries. But considering not even that was done, I think staffs should judge without it
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Ciel asked them here a few days ago and I see Eldemade last active is today so I think they are blatantly ignoring it
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Got sent like four summaries instead of two, but whatever.
From what I’ve been shown, I’m leaning against Immeasurable Speed for Information Particles. The main issue is that the scans seem to separate the particles’ actual movement from the transfer of information between them.
Information Particles do appear to have a movement speed, and that speed is described as constant. But the “instantaneous” or “beyond time and space” part seems to refer more to information being synchronized/transferred between Information Particles, not necessarily the particles themselves physically moving at immeasurable speed.
Most of the scans don’t really treat Information Particles as moving ridiculously fast in the normal speed sense. The speed of light is brought up around them multiple times, and there are even cases where outside observation through Information Particles has a delay. So I don’t think it’s fair to take the information-transfer mechanic and apply that directly as movement speed.
For actual Immeasurable Speed, I’d need something more direct showing that the particles move through time itself via speed, not just that information can be transmitted regardless of time and space.
From what I’ve been shown, I’m leaning against Immeasurable Speed for Information Particles. The main issue is that the scans seem to separate the particles’ actual movement from the transfer of information between them.
Information Particles do appear to have a movement speed, and that speed is described as constant. But the “instantaneous” or “beyond time and space” part seems to refer more to information being synchronized/transferred between Information Particles, not necessarily the particles themselves physically moving at immeasurable speed.
Most of the scans don’t really treat Information Particles as moving ridiculously fast in the normal speed sense. The speed of light is brought up around them multiple times, and there are even cases where outside observation through Information Particles has a delay. So I don’t think it’s fair to take the information-transfer mechanic and apply that directly as movement speed.
For actual Immeasurable Speed, I’d need something more direct showing that the particles move through time itself via speed, not just that information can be transmitted regardless of time and space.
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Interesting 
Astral_Trinity439
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Umm, can you check point 3 of my summary again?
Iirc I specifically included a point for this, that information itself transfers through the movement of information particles. It doesn't move by itself. Otherwise there wouldn't be any need to hit the enemy with a particle, since they could just synchronize information to replicate damage...
(Edit: that was also one of the reasons why infinite speed was accepted to begin with. The thing moving is the particle, not the information it contains. Like this:
That was also addressed in point 6 of my summary.
This scan:
Also, can you upload the 4 summaries sent by everyone here? The point was that both would be uploaded by a staff member at the same time so one doesn't have an advantage over the other, not that they should only be kept in dms :3
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It was never a question about whether Information Particles have speed, but their statements of transcending space and time are always connected to their ability to transfer information, while their own speed is treated as a separate thing.
Those were mostly your disagreements about interpretation.
Being unaffected by time and space is not the same as moving at immeasurable speed.
Sure
Astral_Trinity439
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Well yeah, but "information transfer" is done by the movement of the particles
I don't think there's any case of information being transmitted without their movement.
Fair, I suppose they didn't convince you. Though I'd like to ask the reason, if possible.
Ummmm, it includes:
Ty
Astral_Trinity439
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Also, I didn't think you'd be this active in replying, so I'll like to note that I edited my earlier reply and added one thing.
EldemadeDityjon
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Well Tatsumi and I had different summary as I already told here we are going to share it separately since most of our arguments are based on different points.
Astral is the only one argued from their end. Idk who is that extra party who sneaked in like they are part of the team lol
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Well yeah, but "information transfer" is done by the movement of the particles
I don't think there's any case of information being transmitted without their movement.
It's stated here that Information Particles need to gather information from the surroundings, not from other Information Particles. This implies information and Information Particles can exist separately,
I already agreed that the transmission of information ignores time and space.
Summaries:
Speed of Information Particle vs Speed of Information Transfer
- As information particles and information itself aren't the same thing, the speed at which the the former transmits the latter isn't a justification for it's supposed speed.
- While information is transferred with zero time lag, there is a delay in the physical movement of information particles out of the body to observe data. This contradicts the notion of speed being constant and proves that the speed of the two do not correlate. Because Ciel is a part of Rimuru, their communication is instantaneous however, to obtain information from outside, the particle has to move out and grasp the information of the surroundings resulting in a delay
- The reason why information can be transferred regardless of time period, with zero time delay is because information particles aren't dependent on/are unbound by time and space. The transmitted information requires no third party besides the particle it's transmitting to, requires no medium to facilitate the transfer of information hence, no distance covered hence, instantaneous transfer. Information particles aren't bound by time hence, the information can be transferred to any point in time as long as the target of transfer is within the observable space of the sender.
- One of, if not the most credible source in the story clearly states that the movement speed of information particles may appear to exceed the speed of light but are in fact not faster than light. This more than anything disproves this being immeasurable, a detail conveniently left out in the cropped scans.
Well, here's my summary for the thread. I'm busy with other things right now, so I might not comment any further. If this still gets accepted as a speed rating, I'll make a staff thread in the future to tackle the issue as some of arguments and scans were still left out and generally speed isn't treated as how supporters making it sound. Just giving everyone a heads-up, as I'm not free enough to continue this discussion any further in this thread.
Spoiler: Compilation
So, like I mentioned, the context is talking about the movement of information at any time, in other words, at any moment, even where time is stopped, it can move. This has nothing to do with speed, and saying it is done by speed is incorrect.
Spoiler: Compilation
- Let me start with what I repeated. The OP scans never talk about any speed. Staff should check that out. Since this is a summary, I'm not going to go deep into it.
- The first scan talks about the transmission of information even in a stopped world. Hence, that thing is definitely not related to speed. The second scan talks about the synchronization of information, again, which has nothing to do with speed. The instantaneous statement is talking about all information being synchronized in real time and connected to each other using parallel bodies. That's all. The third scan is basically just resistance to time stop, again, nothing to do with speed. The fourth scan talks about how Information Particles can be used to perceive the expansion of spacetime. Nothing there talks about any speed. It's talking about how you can interfere with space and time. That's all. None of the scans talk about any speed. They are just showing the resistance and abilities that Information Particles give them.
So, like I mentioned, the context is talking about the movement of information at any time, in other words, at any moment, even where time is stopped, it can move. This has nothing to do with speed, and saying it is done by speed is incorrect.
- The second problem is that even the supporters admit, and the series constantly states, that Information Particles have a constant speed. So, saying they can go to any point in time completely removes that constant speed if you take the statement literally instead of looking at the context.
- I have highlighted the later lines with additional content. You can check them out. It is clearly just talking about how Information Particles can move in a time-stopped world, nothing to do with any speed that lets them move to any point in time.
- The Volume 23 statement completely disagrees with the immeasurable speed interpretation since Rimuru was surprised by an FTL movement, even questioning whether such a phenomenon was possible.
- He was basically wondering how something that seemed impossible had become possible. If, like the supporters and the OP claim, Information Particles indeed had immeasurable speed, and characters who are DLF could move to any point in time through speed and already qualified for immeasurable speed, then FTL speed would not have been a surprise to him.
- He also mentioned that Information Particles have a constant speed, which further indicates that this supposed constant speed is either SOL or below, since FTL speed was something he had never seen before and considered surprising.
- Now, talking about the counter that supporters tried to bring up: "SOL is not constant."
- I don't know what they were trying to say because, again, I posted the scan where the narrative already gave the exact value for SOL. Yes, its speed varies depending on the medium it travels through, but that doesn't mean anything here.
- Saying it is "not constant" does not mean it travels at infinite or immeasurable speed without the narrative explicitly pointing that out. If moving at SOL or FTL allowed characters to go to different time periods, that still would not qualify as immeasurable speed in the first place. You can take Fire Force as an example. But I hope the OP was not trying to argue that.
- Anyway, Rimuru clearly clarifies that he was measuring the speed using real-life standards, specifically the laws of physics. Yes, he clearly mentioned that. Since those laws were removed, he questioned whether it was now possible to move at FTL speed. That is exactly how he was questioning that speed. He was not using any other measurement system that does not exist.
- The OP scans never talked about speed as in how our wiki works.
- The series consistently states that Information Particles have a constant speed & it was stated the constant speed of Information Particles is below FTL.
- The argument that "SOL is not constant" does not mean it is immeasurable or infinite speed without further context. Besides, the series clearly gives us a value for SOL, and it is nowhere near what they are claiming. The speed of light varies depending on the medium it travels through, but that does not make it infinite or immeasurable.
- Rimuru measured the speed of Information Particles using real-life physics. He explicitly refers to the laws of physics when discussing their speed. So, the argument that "SOL is not constant, therefore the movement of Information Particles should be immeasurable speed" should not exist in the first place, because their speed is being measured based on the value the series itself provides.
Summary
Premise: Premise includes assuming the idea of "Information Particles have Speed (not Teleportation) an At least infinite speed" as mutually agreed upon, as part 1 of the thread deals with exactly these assumptions. Also small clarification, Information Particles = Data Particles (alt translations by Slimereader and Yenpress respectively). I'll use indent points to separate where the argument was brought up and addressed from the idea behind the argument and counter itself. Now, moving on to the actual summary of why it should be immeasurable speed:
Premise: Premise includes assuming the idea of "Information Particles have Speed (not Teleportation) an At least infinite speed" as mutually agreed upon, as part 1 of the thread deals with exactly these assumptions. Also small clarification, Information Particles = Data Particles (alt translations by Slimereader and Yenpress respectively). I'll use indent points to separate where the argument was brought up and addressed from the idea behind the argument and counter itself. Now, moving on to the actual summary of why it should be immeasurable speed:
- The most clear-cut statement is from Ciel herself saying "It has been determined that Information Particles are unaffected by time or space and are able to transmit information to any point in time". Other similar repeated statements include:
- Transcending both Time and Space
- Are not bound by Time
- Instantaneously synchronized across Time and Space
- Information Particle's nature of BDE1 does not hinder their rating of Immeasurable Speed; Because the prior is about not tracing a path for your movement in space-time, while the latter is simply movement in Time.
- Information Particles are what have the "Speed", not Information itself. Information is transmitted through their container (Information Particle) by moving the Information Particles themselves.
- It was brought up that Information Particles are not Immeasurable because "they do not surpass the speed of Light" here, so they are "below or at best equal to the speed of light". This was addressed using the idea that the Speed of Light isn't constant (and not in the "vacuum/non-vacuum" sense).
- It was brought up that the nature of Information Particles is not due to their speed. This is mostly semantics
- It was brought up that the Speed of Infons isn't constant, reason being because apparently the Info transfer with Chloe and Rimuru had a time lag while between him and Ciel there was no lag. It was addressed using the idea that the lag wasn't caused by data particles themselves but due to Rimuru at the time not having enough processing speed to not cause lag (as their speed is repeatedly stated to be constant even in the last volume).
- It was initially thought by the opposition that "can transmit info to any point in time" was a mistranslation from Slimereader. This was countered by the fact that said translation was from our TL helper @RaikiKurohane99 and they also came to clarify it themselves. It was then later argued by opposition that the context suggests an alternative translation against our Translation Staff's TL but was also accordingly addressed here. There's also the fact that the opposition's interpretation was simply incorrect and based on insufficient knowledge in Japanese.
- It was brought up that "transmit to any point in time" is about "Leaping" and not casual "movement", in the sense that it is time travel and not speed. But this was countered by the fact that Information Particles always have a constant speed, so any and all movement in time = movement in space. This is mostly about semantics though.
- It was brought up that the "Zero-Time Delay" (Movement with no time difference) was false because it just meant being able to move in time stop. That is however false, because as seen in the scan in this and this post, it is repeatedly being called instantaneous in context to its own speed of movement.
- This was brought up here but was unfortunately skipped by by me due to the walls of text that followed before and after.
- Another point that was made here (not countered thus far), that a verse can still describe some finite spatial movement as immeasurable speed because the movement across time is not the same as movement in space, thus something that is spatially hypersonic can still travel through time due to its nature and thus be classified as Immeasurable speed, although these situations are judged case by case. This however is the kind of last-resort counter assuming some of the opposition's argument to be true, when they are completely false to begin with.
Summary
There were some arguments in the thread that Information Particles do not have a "Speed" to begin with. Despite the fact that these issues were already addressed in the first thread, the supporters decided to make a short summary on why they have Speed, and why it's Infinite.
Some trivia: Information Particles and Data Particles are alternative translations. DLF (Digital Lifeforms) are beings that are composed entirely of Data Particles, as much as how we are made of tissues, molecules, atoms, and so on, except they are made entirely of these particles on all levels rather than something like "made of molecules, which are made of atoms, which are...".
There were some arguments in the thread that Information Particles do not have a "Speed" to begin with. Despite the fact that these issues were already addressed in the first thread, the supporters decided to make a short summary on why they have Speed, and why it's Infinite.
Some trivia: Information Particles and Data Particles are alternative translations. DLF (Digital Lifeforms) are beings that are composed entirely of Data Particles, as much as how we are made of tissues, molecules, atoms, and so on, except they are made entirely of these particles on all levels rather than something like "made of molecules, which are made of atoms, which are...".
- Information Particles are said to have a "Movement Speed", multiple times, and this Speed is said to be constant. Additionally, while all DLFs can move in Suspended World normally, using "Teleportation" in Suspended World is still considered something special/strange/shock-worthy.
- The idea here is that the verse itself classifies it as Speed rather than Teleportation, whereas Teleportation itself is distinguished.
- Information Particles can reflect off/bounce off/strike obstacles during their travel, and using this, they gather information from the surroundings, insofar as that they are not "skipping distance". And the thing moving is the particle itself, not the Information. Information is simply exchanged when two data particles hit each other.
- The idea is that non DLFs cannot perceive the Suspended World normally. So what they do is that they send out information particles in all directions, and these particles hit and bounce/reflect off things back to the sender. During this process, they obtain surrounding information, and thus allow the person to perceive the suspended world and other digital lifeforms (Although moving themselves still requires transforming oneself into a DLF first). Here is a fan-made diagram to show this mechanic.
- The speed of information particles is such that they can travel to any point in perceivable space in 0 time/without any time difference. The current thread adds that they can also travel to any point in Time as well. Additionally, if they are standing still, when they move, they reach this speed instantly.
- The additional idea is that because their Speed is constant, their combat, reaction, travel, flight and perception speed would always be equal.
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Good for me, summaries 3 and 4 are good, summaries 1 and 2 are good, only summaries 2 I found kind of bad, only summaries 1 is good in my opinion.
Astral_Trinity439
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Because all things contain information particles. All things literally, the surrounding terrain, enemies, etc.
Gathering information requires sending out the particles themselves. These particles bounce and reflect around to receive information. The information itself is exchanged when two particles hit each other.
So you think information itself can have immeasurable speed but not the particles?
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Oh, interesting.
Right now I'm stuck between whether the transmission of information particles can be done from a distance or only through direct contact with one another.So you think information itself can have immeasurable speed but not the particles?
If it's only from direct contact, I agree with Immeasurable; if there are instances of that transfer happening without contact, then I disagree.
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Can you please stop joking?
everyone
everyone
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If information particles could exchange information without even moving from one place to another, it would be strange for them to have speed at all in my opinion. Or things like "sending" or "throwing" information particles also wouldn't be necessary for anything.
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Well, considering everything is made of information particles, that would be like saying it's weird for atoms to be able to move or gain energy through contact with other atoms.
And honestly, Information Particles seem like they're inspired by quantum entanglement in a way.
Astral_Trinity439
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Yeah, so my point is; we know information is exchanged when two particles hit.
SO how will information be exchanged to different points in time (since it can transmit to any point in time) if the particles don't also move at the same immeasurable speed?
I mean, otherwise, they would not be able to hit each other lol
It's like I want to give a letter to a person from the future, the requirement being that I want to hand it to him myself after meeting him. I can't just give it to him right now, nor can I let the letter fly away (since that violates the requirements). The only way is If I can also go to the future :3
I don't think there were cases of the latter. I can't give you something that doesn't exist (cases where information (as in fundamental information) was transfered without moving information particles).
Let me give a clear scan; the "battle" between digital lifeforms happens purely on the basis of doing stuff with Data particles.
Hitting the particles to the enemy to attack, and defending using them as shield.
Here is another scan. An "attack" like a fire arrow in suspended world is just a bundle of information particles fired at the enemy:
Astral_Trinity439
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Perhaps there would be some related elements, but quantum particles are already a separate thing in-verse
Information Particles make up spiritual particles, which make up Magicules. Quantum particles are considered "physical" and don't work in time stop. Would you like a scan for this? (I'd get it translated asap). So information particles are in a sense higher than them in every category
Explosion-Proximity
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Tensura is just a huge bundle of references its pure chaos
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@Tatsumi504 @EldemadeDityjon
If there are any scans of information being transmitted without the direct interaction of Information Particles against one another, you should post them; otherwise, I'm going to agree with Immeasurable Speed.
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Just a moment, I'll help them.
I will write a novel of my own making
Haha, there isn't one.
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