Kamen Rider Revision: Memories of the People

[Jamesthetaker]

Bump.

 

[Abstractly_a_Protagonist]

Ohma Zi-O: Every day, more OP.

Yeah.
Btw, does Ohma Zio also scale to Reiwa Rider? Zero-One, Saber, and Revice? Cuz Saber hax set is kinda useful.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Yeah.
Btw, does Ohma Zio also scale to Reiwa Rider? Zero-One, Saber, and Revice? Cuz Saber hax set is kinda useful.

Mostly likely since Ohma Form Zi-O said he's the king of all eras.

 

[Abstractly_a_Protagonist]

Mostly likely since Ohma Form Zi-O said he's the king of all eras.

Oke, thank you.

Also, I agree with the OP.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Bump.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Bump.

 

[Nicetoderp]

I assumed that the revisions after this will be about how Memories interacted with series like Decade/Zi-O?

 

[Jamesthetaker]

I assumed that the revisions after this will be about how Memories interacted with series like Decade/Zi-O?

Yes, but I also have priority for other series as well.

 

[MugenGhost]

If you can find the scans for that then this will be further proof that this isn't just a Heisei Rider things, but something that extended across every Rider era.

Here how Amazing Siren works, I ended up taking a while to do this.

 

[Nicetoderp]

Nice, even more proof.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Yeah I think this is sufficient enough to apply.

Though I will get some people to look over it first just in case.

 

[Nicetoderp]

Also the thread header should totally be called Memories of Heroes but y'know

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Also the thread header should totally be called Memories of Heroes but y'know

I have bad naming sense so don't judge me.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Bump.

 

[Nicetoderp]

Also, should we elaborated on the whole Tsukasa lacking story/history things? Would that matter into the memories.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Also, should we elaborated on the whole Tsukasa lacking story/history things? Would that matter into the memories.

History isn't equal to memories. Quite the opposite, the evidence I've presented shows that historical erasure does jack shit to memories of Rider.

I'm waiting for Sir Ovens to get some staff to look at this, just in case.

 

[Nicetoderp]

It should be fine to be added if no one wanted to respond/s

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Confluctor has some issues with the revision. Mostly how the scans are not easily comprehensible for an outside observer.

 

[MagiSinbad]

Mostly how the scans are not easily comprehensible for an outside observer.

Did he eleborated on which part seem hard to comprehend ?

 

[Confluctor]

I will repeat what I told Ovens off site;

I am reading through this and looking at evidence... Memory being a primal aspect of creation sounds a bit too iffy to me. Feels like some are just flowery language used and twisted into giving it concept and whatnot stuff.

And I have literally no idea what tf is even happening in some of the clips. The one about information doesn't explain anything other than this dude might have data for his mind instead of being a normal human with normal memories. That's not info manip for the whole verse.

I am not seeing concept or info manip. Heck, even soul is extremely iffy

 

[Nicetoderp]

I will repeat what I told Ovens off site;

On the first point, it could be seen that way maybe if we ignored all the time that many Rider simply get restored into existence despite the fact that the history has been changed on fundamental level, whether it was how the Den-O characters who SHOULD get yeeted from having their history deleted come back via memories, Decade returned from his death despite lacking history because of memories, this further shown by Ghost who was able to revived himself after the destruction of his own soul via memories. It is shown multiple times across multiples entries and eras that memories do make up a fundamental part of what Riders is.

 

[MagiSinbad]

I am reading through this and looking at evidence... Memory being a primal aspect of creation sounds a bit too iffy to me. Feels like some are just flowery language used and twisted into giving it concept and whatnot stuff.

It does sound flowery when looking at it as an outsider.
However, within context, none of them are flowery, most of them are accurates with what are shown in the series. Memories in Kamen Rider franchise shapes the reality, when the timeline is destroyed, people's memories are what brought it back, when the Kamen Riders got killed, other characters uses their memories to bring them back to life.
Another example of memories being the foundation of the reality is Kamen Rider Falchion. When Falchion erased the memories of everyone in the world about an object, that object is historically erased, things related to that object also disappears, which shown how much memories can control the reality.

 

[Confluctor]

You are describing immortality type 8

On the first point, it could be seen that way maybe if we ignored all the time that many Rider simply get restored into existence despite the fact that the history has been changed on fundamental level, whether it was how the Den-O characters who SHOULD get yeeted from having their history deleted come back via memories, Decade returned from his death despite lacking history because of memories, this further shown by Ghost who was able to revived himself after the destruction of his own soul via memories. It is shown multiple times across multiples entries and eras that memories do make up a fundamental part of what Riders is.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

I will repeat what I told Ovens off site;

I will respond to this:

First of all, I don't see why you think flowery language is being used in these. The characters explicitly describe memories as something fundamental to reality and can sustain existence. They are being very direct in explaining how memories work and are not speaking in riddles or such. The statements also come from two time travelers who have the duty to watch over the timeline, which means they understand how time or memories operate to speak about them. We have also seen the actual effect that memories can have on reality through many of the examples above, such as the Amazing Siren erasing memories, which consequently erases said object/person from history or time got restored because memories about it still exist.

I'd admit that it's my fault for organizing the scans and clips badly. My usual approach is that I provide the scans and official source, then I give the clip for visual demonstration. Like in the Ore Sanjou! example, I give scans showing that GaohLiner can control and erase time. Then we have this clip of GaohLiner making an entire era disappear, which also contained the Akashic Record. Eventually, we have this clip of the aftermath when Gaoh is defeated, Yuto Sakurai explains that time is brought back because of people's memories.

I guess the information thing isn't clear, so I will try to explain it once again: In this previous accepted thread, the guy in the clip is capable of assimilating all the minds and souls in the world inside him. When the protagonist attempts to invade his world, he describes it as the network of data consciousnes, which qualifies for Type 1 Information Manipulation.

In the same clip above, we also see the memories of people being illustrated like feathers. It's supported by this clip when he remembers the memories he's made with his friends and family. This means that memories are also information, like consciousness, but are capable of shaping reality, which qualifies for Type 2 Information Manipulation.

The reason why Ghost would get aspects of type 2 and type 4 NEP is already accepted from the previous thread. He has abandoned his own mind, emotions, and individuality, which are fundamental aspect of a person in the verse. In this case, the mind contained memories, which is explained to be Type 1 concept and Type 2 Information above.

Now, allow me to quote the requirements of Type 1 Concept Manipulation in our wiki:

These concepts shape all of reality within their area of influence and at whatever level that area exists in, and everything in it "participates" in these concepts.

Memories can create time and shape reality. Time itself can be recreated from the memories of people. Creatures like the Imagins or Yuto Sakurai can use memories to sustain their own existence, even when they have disappeared from the timeline.

In this way, the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept across all of their area of influence, while the opposite wouldn't affect the concept.

The historical erasure and the erasure of conceptual records from past to future have done nothing to the memories of people. The memories are described as being beyond time, life, and death, which supports the evidence.

Simply enough, memories in Kamen Rider can shape-up everything inside reality while also being independent of the changes that affect reality itself.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Bump.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Bump.

 

[Confluctor]

Before I make a proper respond, I just want to say one thing... Not in one scan am I seeing that memories sustain entire existence. Where did that come from? Because it didn't come from this. Link.

A lot of these are just fancy words taken randomly and presented as if they are somehow abstract and conceptual stuff.

 

[BERRIES555]

The whole Memories sustaining existences comes from the next to links after that Imgur link. The first link has a character stating that all Imagin will disappear which is then followed by the disappearance of all Imagins. And in the second clip, we see Yuuto disappearing from the timeline. Both the Imagins and Yuuto are able to come back.

Not only that, the person who’s talking in the link you send isn’t speaking is some riddle, he’s being very blunt.

“Memory is time” - We know that Memories can keep the literal Concept of the past, present, and future together. And that Memories and Time are stated and shown to be linked to one another, either by statement saying that Memories = Time, or showings like in the OOOs movie, which has the villains rewriting the timeline simply by brainwashing two people.

“And it is what supports people. And they don’t need to rely on other people’s memories.” - This is a direct statement towards Yuuto, a person who has been running in borrowed time. After his reappearance after his erasure, he literally stated “Looks like I can’t just rely on my future self’s memories”

“The memories of the time they spent together sustains their existence.” - This is a statement direction toward all the Imagin in the series, as they were able to come back from being erased.

There’s no like, hidden meaning behind his words. Even as he’s talking, the show itself is showing clips of who this statement is meant to describe.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Before I make a proper respond, I just want to say one thing... Not in one scan am I seeing that memories sustain entire existence. Where did that come from? Because it didn't come from this. Link.

A lot of these are just fancy words taken randomly and presented as if they are somehow abstract and conceptual stuff.

The scan is a follow-up of this clip when the Imagin disapeared from existence.

In the case of Yuto Sakurai, who got erased from the timeline and was forgotten from people's memories, he returned by using his own memories. This was also being referenced on the official website.

This is not the only case where memories are the source of a character's existence:

• In Let's Go Kamen Rider, the Riders come back even when they aren't supposed to exist because of the timeline alteration.
• In Heisei Generation Forever, the entire history of Kamen Rider is gone, but they still persist nonetheless.
• In Decade X W, Tsukasa revives himself from nothing with memories alone.

Now, apologies if I may come off as rude, but none of the evidence I've presented were fancy words. All the characters in the clips and scans were very straight when talking about memories and their impact on reality. If there were like one or two times where they talked like that about memories, then I may agree that it could be flowery language, but it was consistently repeated so many times that it cannot be overlooked. The usual approach to memories is: something bad happens -> history got ****** up -> the heroes explain how memories can help them -> the memories somehow fix reality. They aren't just placed randomly but neatly tie into the story. To clear up the ambiguity, we also have visual evidence of the character coming back from the memories (Decade), reality being fixed from memories, and so on. I don't understand how you can come to the conclusion that it's just fancy words when it has been established that memories have been treated as being important to the story throughout the franchise.

 

[Nicetoderp]

Here how Amazing Siren works, I ended up taking a while to do this.

Also, this is what happened when a character have their memories erased.

They straight up get deleted from existence.

Earlier in Saber, when the world is erased it is restored through an unforgettable story.

You might argue that this is a story thing but I wanted you to focus on an important keyword here, "unforgettable". Just simply creating a new story for a new world isn't enough, it need an unforgettable one, one that cannot be forgot from people memories in order for Saber to restored the world back into existence.

 

[Omazio2019]

Addition to @Nicetoderp
Memories stuff


Amazing Siren memories erase

 

[Omazio2019]

Although there are already many evidences about memories, i want to introduce you about Zi-O final stage

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Essentially Legend Riders, Anniversary Riders, and some others are reliant on the memory of them to persist. Memory itself is a type 1 concept that is beyond actual human comprehension. It is purely abstract and has to be destroyed if you want to truly kill a Rider.

To my understanding there are two variations, the standard version that exists within the world of Kamen Rider, and the 9D real world version. Only Legend Riders scale to the latter.

@Confluctor

 

[Confluctor]

First of all, I don't see why you think flowery language is being used in these.

Ofc you don't see it that's the point

The characters explicitly describe memories as something fundamental to reality and can sustain existence.

Again, your scans don't show that

They are being very direct in explaining how memories work and are not speaking in riddles or such.

As above

The statements also come from two time travelers who have the duty to watch over the timeline, which means they understand how time or memories operate to speak about them.

Don't really see how that's really relevant. But anyway, what's their intelligence level?

We have also seen the actual effect that memories can have on reality through many of the examples above, such as the Amazing Siren erasing memories,

Which scan specifically says this?

which consequently erases said object/person from history or time got restored because memories about it still exist.

"People's memory are time"
"If people remember, time will exist"

....I honestly don't know what else to tell you other than flowery language. Like how does this equate to anything that is concept or info or whatever hax.

I'd admit that it's my fault for organizing the scans and clips badly. My usual approach is that I provide the scans and official source, then I give the clip for visual demonstration. Like in the Ore Sanjou! example, I give scans showing that GaohLiner can control and erase time. Then we have this clip of GaohLiner making an entire era disappear,

Througgh time hax

which also contained the Akashic Record.

Nothing appears in this link.

Eventually, we have this clip of the aftermath when Gaoh is defeated, Yuto Sakurai explains that time is brought back because of people's memories.

The way I am seeing it, they basically reversed the time hax/erasure. I am not really seeing something as amazing as concept hax in this.

I guess the information thing isn't clear, so I will try to explain it once again: In this previous accepted thread, the guy in the clip is capable of assimilating all the minds and souls in the world inside him. When the protagonist attempts to invade his world, he describes it as the network of data consciousnes, which qualifies for Type 1 Information Manipulation.

So essentially a collective consciousness sort of thing? But that leaves the question, why does the other person says "You have the capacity to invade our network", which doesn't imply every entity in the world is part of the collective consciousness, just this group of people.

In the same clip above, we also see the memories of people being illustrated like feathers. It's supported by this clip when he remembers the memories he's made with his friends and family. This means that memories are also information, like consciousness, but are capable of shaping reality, which qualifies for Type 2 Information Manipulation.

I mean the feathers seem like an artistic choice more than anything. This is the only thing I am getting from cross-referencing the visuals with the dialogues being spoken.

The reason why Ghost would get aspects of type 2 and type 4 NEP is already accepted from the previous thread. He has abandoned his own mind, emotions, and individuality, which are fundamental aspect of a person in the verse. In this case, the mind contained memories, which is explained to be Type 1 concept and Type 2 Information above.

Idrc about NEP so never really commended on that.

Memories can create time and shape reality.

Where?

Time itself can be recreated from the memories of people.

....You do realise that's not to be taken at face value, right?

Creatures like the Imagins or Yuto Sakurai can use memories to sustain their own existence, even when they have disappeared from the timeline.

Which is immortality type 8

The historical erasure and the erasure of conceptual records from past to future have done nothing to the memories of people. The memories are described as being beyond time, life, and death, which supports the evidence.

I don't want to sound rude, but this is literally the definition of flowery language. Please.

Heck, these kinds of words are thrown around irl as well as literally every verse. If we take that at face value, irl humans should get concept and info hax type 1 among a number of the other abilities.

Simply enough, memories in Kamen Rider can shape-up everything inside reality while also being independent of the changes that affect reality itself.

I feel like the evidence you are showing me is completely different to the one you are looking at. Everything you just said here doesn't really prove any of this.


The collective consciousness bit is the only part of the evidence that I think could potentially work, but just for that specific group of people.

 

[Nicetoderp]

Again, your scans don't show that

How could it not? Memories layers far deeper than the history that make up the existence of the people.



Link that you can't seem to access.

 

[Confluctor]

How could it not? Memories layers far deeper than the history that make up the existence of the people.

....................My memories make up my existence too, you know.

 

[Nicetoderp]

"People's memory are time"
"If people remember, time will exist"

....I honestly don't know what else to tell you other than flowery language. Like how does this equate to anything that is concept or info or whatever hax

Because it is literally deeper than the history. Even as history got completely destroy the memories of the people continued to persists still, despite the fact that memories should also disappeared as well.

Which scan specifically says this

Addition to @Nicetoderp
Memories stuff


Amazing Siren memories erase

Here, and Amazing Siren literally erased the dude and Rintaro completely forgot. In the scan also mentioned that Amazing Siren main purpose is to erases memories.

Througgh time hax

Yes, and it doesn't ate through memories, but via memories entire era is restored to it former shape.

 

[Nicetoderp]

....................My memories make up my existence too, you know.

Yes, but do memories revived you from being erased from history?

 

[Nicetoderp]

...You do realize that is not to be taken at face value right?

What is there to be taken at face value exactly? These people doesn't revived because of time hax, again, many characters stated multiple times across multiple series that it isn't the history but the memories itself that are able to restored the destroyed eras.

Where?

Above, also Amazing Siren, Wonder Almighty scans posted by Oma.

I don't want to sound rude, but this is literally the definition of flowery language. Please.

Heck, these kinds of words are thrown around irl as well as literally every verse. If we take that at face value, irl humans should get concept and info hax type 1 among a number of the other abilities.

Except for the part where Ghost, after stating this, got revived after his soul is completely shattered. Many characters in the show also stated that he SHOULD be beyond dead by this point as he has no body for his soul to returned to and, again, his soul just got yeeted.

 

[BERRIES555]

I honestly don’t see why this is flowery language. Like, there no double meanings, hidden meaning, the characters aren’t trying to mislead anyone. It’s very blunt and to the point, Memories are what allows the Akashic Records to be intact. And could alter reality.

Why shouldn’t we take Yuto’s statement of how Memories work as face value when, like I said before, it’s been stated by other characters throughout the story. It’s not a one off statement made by a random guy. Furthermore, as what the other have pointed out, the Amazing Siren ability allows the user to rip the pages out of a person’s memory, directly causing people and object to either forget them or disappear altogether.