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Monster Hunter General Discussion Thread.

Sigilavox said:
Right, I found the quote here in dialogue just after Fiorayne falls unconscious. Bahari discusses how Qurio venom/poison was found in her wound because Malzeno's body is "coursin' with Qurio juice," but it doesn't turn Malzeno crazy (like it does other monsters), just makes it stronger. Add that to them specifically stating that her incubation period was more or less the same as the monsters that enter a hyper-aggressive state after being bitten. They also say that fifty years prior, a plague hit the kingdom shortly after Malzeno decimated it, lining up with what happened to Fiorayne.

So basically it's the Qurio's poison/virus (they use the words interchangeably) that causes both hyper-aggression in monsters and dizziness/fatigue/unconsciousness in humans, older Qurio bring higher potency, and due to contact and coincidental symbiosis Malzeno now has a ton of it in its system. It's immune to the negative effects, and instrumentalizes it in combat to empower itself and infect its prey.
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cool, so Malzeno would scale to it.
 
The New Turf Wars in Sunbreak are nutty. Espinas is built different, that ****** can go head to head with Kushala Daora and toss it over it's head Diablos style. Lunagaron is also pretty nasty as well with the way it throws down. Also it's pretty cool to see Seregios being able to trade blows with Gore Magala and being able to flip it backwards.
 
XSOULOFCINDERX said:
I just saw Oltura's Profile for the first time and Jesus Christ is it broken.
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It do be like that, ironically when I made the profile I could of made is even stronger through some immortality negation (the arrows used to kill it are presumably made from it's scales though there is nothing that confirms it).

XSOULOFCINDERX said:
The New Turf Wars in Sunbreak are nutty. Espinas is built different, that ****** can go head to head with Kushala Daora and toss it over it's head Diablos style. Lunagaron is also pretty nasty as well with the way it throws down. Also it's pretty cool to see Seregios being able to trade blows with Gore Magala and being able to flip it backwards.
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Yeah, that turf war with Espinas should probably be linked in the guy's profile to further justify 6-C. From what I can tell, both Garm and Luna are on par with higher end large monsters like Tigrex or Rathalos so that's neat. Steve being able to keep up with Gore is interesting though as we currently have Gore as an elder dragon lvl monster.

On another note, we should really start noting stuff for monsters for future revisions like Nergi have Mind hax resistance due to being able to shrug off Oltura's influence or any of rise additions to the hunter (Body Puppetry, Animal Manipulation, Reactive Evolution, Transmutation, etc)
 
We don't have a profile for Zinogre? Magnamalo I kinda understand but Zinogre? Huh, that's something I gotta fix when I got time.
 
I drafted an Espinas profile revision that includes the Sunbreak turf war and gives each version an image and a powers/abilities tabber. The Rare Species doesn't have Dragon element as far as I can find and is merely weak to it, so I removed its Dragon Element-related abilities.
 
Sigilavox said:
I drafted an Espinas profile revision that includes the Sunbreak turf war and gives each version an image and a powers/abilities tabber. The Rare Species doesn't have Dragon element as far as I can find and is merely weak to it, so I removed its Dragon Element-related abilities.
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It looks good to me.
 
JoshSSJGod said:
From what I can tell, both Garm and Luna are on par with higher end large monsters like Tigrex or Rathalos so that's neat. Steve being able to keep up with Gore is interesting though as we currently have Gore as an elder dragon lvl monster.
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Well Seregios was first introduced after you had already defeated Shagaru Magala and everyone in the guild was telling you that Seregios was too dangerous for you the first time you see it because you weren't prepared so you had to back out and then prepare to fight it specifically. While we're talking about Elder Dragons, that Kushala Daora at the end of MH4U's Story is built different. It survived a fight with you and all of the Ace Hunters while also getting nuked by a Massive Dragon Element Powered Cannon that needed to be charged by a Stygian Zinogre's corpse and it just stood back up and flew off after all that. I think it should get it's own Key on the Profile.
JoshSSJGod said:
On another note, we should really start noting stuff for monsters for future revisions like Nergi have Mind hax resistance due to being able to shrug off Oltura's influence or any of rise additions to the hunter (Body Puppetry, Animal Manipulation, Reactive Evolution, Transmutation, etc)
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Sounds good to me.
 
Realized I forgot to add the Espinas tactics section, so I went and did that. Updated Gaismagorm and Malzeno, added Dragon Element stuff to the former and added links to the latter. I think they should be done by now. How does one go about getting a profile revision through?
 
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Sigilavox said:
Realized I forgot to add the Espinas tactics section, so I went and did that. Updated Gaismagorm and Malzeno, added Dragon Element stuff to the former and added links to the latter. I think they should be done by now. How does one go about getting a profile revision through?
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Be sure to note that Gais and Malzeno are resistant to the effects of the Qurio
 
Update on Gai: After a few more hunts, I have come to the realization that it does not inflict Dragon Element with any of its attacks, and that the times I did see Dragonblight contract were due to wearing Valstrax armor. I'm changing the sandbox for now.
 
I'm thinking of doing a Safi profile fairly soon. Would people prefer it be a tab on Xeno's page or it be its own? I prefer the former option.
 
Oh yeah also, for the profiles don't put "resists the negative effects of the Qurio". Just list the effects again and mention how the qurio don't affect them.
 
Sigilavox said:
I'm thinking of doing a Safi profile fairly soon. Would people prefer it be a tab on Xeno's page or it be its own? I prefer the former option.
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It should be a second Key on it since they're literally the same creature, just one is grown up.
 
Doing the Xeno/Safi profile now, splitting them into two keys.

Why do elders, even Kirin and Kushala, have biological and explosion manipulation on death? We only know for certain that Zorah's "fiery energy" would have reacted with the Everstream to cause the whole New World to explode, not that Elders just... blow up on death? Even if blowing up the Everstream on death was a property for all elders who died in it, I feel like it'd be an Everstream interaction ability, not a general combat-applicable ability for VS purposes. In terms of bioenergy feeding the ecosystem on death, that's pretty much just a textbook example of decomposition.
 
iirc for the biological, the reason is why due to the massive amount of bioenergy that Elders have and bioenergy when released can drastically change the environment (e.g Guiding Lands and the Elder's Recess). idk for explosion.
 
JoshSSJGod said:
iirc for the biological, the reason is why due to the massive amount of bioenergy that Elders have and bioenergy when released can drastically change the environment (e.g Guiding Lands and the Elder's Recess). idk for explosion.
Click to expand...

Makes sense, though I wonder if it's just an Everstream hotspot thing? I don't think they mention the ecosystem dramatically changing outside of places like the Guiding Lands or Elder's Recess; the Coral Highlands was made after countless years and deaths, not just the result of a single Elder Dragon's death, and in Sunbreak, this point is never brought up upon the death of any notable Elder. If anything, it's a Zorah-specific thing I'd guess.
 
What I've got so far regarding the Xeno/Safi page.

The section on powers and abilities is almost untouched at this point, this was just to get a working baseline.

I'm confused on how Dalamadur, Zorah, and Xeno are scaled, however; I can see 6-B due to calculations, but what's being cited for the High 6-A? If using monster material statements is fair game (I personally disagree but if that's the standard I won't debate that), then sure, Dalamadur is stated to be able to shake the world... which is Low 6-B according to the common feat wiki page. Low 6-B or 6-B are by far sufficient to be able to warp the surface of planets and "level mountains with a single twitch".

Thoughts?
 
Sigilavox said:
What I've got so far regarding the Xeno/Safi page.

The section on powers and abilities is almost untouched at this point, this was just to get a working baseline.

I'm confused on how Dalamadur, Zorah, and Xeno are scaled, however; I can see 6-B due to calculations, but what's being cited for the High 6-A? If using monster material statements is fair game (I personally disagree but if that's the standard I won't debate that), then sure, Dalamadur is stated to be able to shake the world... which is Low 6-B according to the common feat wiki page. Low 6-B or 6-B are by far sufficient to be able to warp the surface of planets and "level mountains with a single twitch".

Thoughts?
Click to expand...
The High 6-A thing never really made sense to me since there wasn't a Calc for it. That being said, Xeno'jiiva definitely scales above Dalamadur given it's literally powered by two massive Dalamadurs plus God knows how many other Elder Dragons.

Edit: Safi should get a "Higher with Insert attack name here" since it can One-Shot you with that one attack unlike every other monster currently in MHW.

Edit 2: Safi is missing an Intelligence Rating. Also I'm thinking about giving every monster a "Higher when Enraged" Section in their AP, SS, Speed and Dura Sections since all their Stats get increased when Enraged, what do you guys think?
 
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XSOULOFCINDERX said:
The High 6-A thing never really made sense to me since there wasn't a Calc for it. That being said, Xeno'jiiva definitely scales above Dalamadur given it's literally powered by two massive Dalamadurs plus God knows how many other Elder Dragons.

Edit: Safi should get a "Higher with Insert attack name here" since it can One-Shot you with that one attack unlike every other monster currently in MHW.
Click to expand...
Yeah, agreed about scaling above 2 Dalamadurs and the Sapphire of the Emperor. Though I'm not so sure about the idea that Xeno should be able to scale above Zorah as if it consciously chose to lure it while knowing it would survive a New World-size explosion, since it was in a cocoon and almost assuredly not even conscious, and a monster knowing when to fold them is not an evolutionary adaptation that Monster Hunter has depicted recently, if at all.
 
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Sigilavox said:
Yeah, agreed about scaling above 2 Dalamadurs and the Sapphire of the Emperor. Though I'm not so sure about the idea that Xeno should be able to scale above Zorah as if it consciously chose to lure it while knowing it would survive a New World-size explosion, since it was in a cocoon and almost assuredly not even conscious, and a monster knowing when to fold them is not an evolutionary adaptation that Monster Hunter has depicted recently, if at all.
Click to expand...
Tbf, those are normal monsters, not the absurdly intelligent Elder Dragons. Especially one like Xeno'jiiva who is a Black Dragon which are implied to be fully Sentient and Sapient.
 
I think Safi is mentioned to be "far above human in intelligence" in the Iceborne book, for what it's worth, too. But yeah, Nergigante isn't so smart at least given that it charges a giant tentacle that one-shots it immediately in Stories 2.
 
Sigilavox said:
I think Safi is mentioned to be "far above human in intelligence" in the Iceborne book, for what it's worth, too. But yeah, Nergigante isn't so smart at least given that it charges a giant tentacle that one-shots it immediately in Stories 2.
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Nergigante is kind of a belligerent Berserker so he can just be the outlier. But still, even the normal Elder Dragons aren't anywhere near the intelligence of the Black Dragons, especially ones like Safi and Fatalis who are literally Sapient and Sentient.
 
You know what just occurred to me? There's an old Monster Hunter Feat that no one has attempted to Calc yet. Remember in Monster Hunter 4 Ultimate when the Scarred Kushala Daora makes that massive ass Thunder Storm just by existing and when it leaves the Storm Disperses?
 
XSOULOFCINDERX said:
You know what just occurred to me? There's an old Monster Hunter Feat that no one has attempted to Calc yet. Remember in Monster Hunter 4 Ultimate when the Scarred Kushala Daora makes that massive ass Thunder Storm just by existing and when it leaves the Storm Disperses?
Click to expand...
Might as well try get that calc'd. It can be scaled to Kushala due to the new rules of the universal energy system due to elements amping the user (as shown by elemental weapons and numerous monsters such as Rajang).
 
Supporting feats for EDs and ED level monsters that I'm aware of:

*Kushala Daora dispelling a snowstorm by flapping its wings in a 4U cutscene (6-C).

*Hellblade Glavenus stated in lore to be able to vaporize a mountain in one attack in both Gens and MHSt2 (6-C).

*Ceadeus sinking an island in the lore with a tsunami in MHtri (Anyway between Low 7-B to 6-C depending on the timeframe and size of the island).

*Rusted Kushala summons a massive storm in a 4U cutscene (needs to be calced but will likely be 7-B upto 6-C).

*Velkhana was stated to be capable of freezing the Ancient Rainforest by a NPC in Iceborne (Likely 6-C but dodgy since it's a temperature feat).

Teostra stated in lore to be able to turn a desert into glass in both MHDos and Frontiers iirc (Against depends on the timeframe and size of a desert but ofc it's a temperature feat, so it might not even be useable).

*Kirin and other EDs passively change the weather in each ecosystem in the New World (7-A was the result for Coral Highland iirc).

*Ceadeus shaking Moga Island by scratching it's horns against the side of it in a MHtri cutscene (Likely a 8-A to 7-C feat since Moga isn't a large island iirc).

*Gore Magala can darken the skies of an entire ecosystem with the black eclipse (likely 7-A however there are some scaling issues).

*And there's this (Can this even be calced?).

Overall the scaling is a follows:

Dangerous First Class Monsters (5-A scaling to White Fatalis pseudo-black hole, moving the moon and the several world destroying statements all those monsters have) > Major ED tier (6-B to High 6-A scaling to Zorah nuking the New World continent, Dalamadur's world shaking/burning statements and the implications of Shara Ishvalda replicating Zorahs feat or something similar) > ED tier (Scaling to 6-C via the above mentioned bullet points with Kushala Daora being the baseline) >>> Apex tier (Essentially any monster that's a non-ED tier flagship or can match blows with Lagiacrus and other Apexes, scaling to upper High 8-C) > Mid tier (mid game monsters that can put up a decent fight but hard lose to any Apex, scaling to Barroth in lower High 8-C) > low tier (early game monsters that are usually the punching bags, most notably the bird wyvern dromes scaling to 8-C via downscaling from Barroth) > jobber tier (all small monsters that are 9-B simply due to most of them being comparable if not superior to IRL animals).

Thoughts?
 
Sigilavox said:
The current Kushala profile uses a feat scaling to 5.49 Gigatons.

Incidentally, I'm fine with Black Dragons being considered on another level intelligence-wise, and the tiers are a pretty nice way of sorting things out. Again though, not so sure about the Dalamadur High 6-A rating for reasons already given.
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Yeah, that Dalamadur Statement is kinda shaky but burning the world sounds like a Generic Life-Wiping Statement to me.
 
XSOULOFCINDERX said:
Yeah, that Dalamadur Statement is kinda shaky but burning the world sounds like a Generic Life-Wiping Statement to me.
Click to expand...

Whoa, is there a typical yield we use for generic life-wiping statements?

Also, this got me curious, since none of the Shah Dalamadur's materials nor quest descriptions mention it being able to burn the world. At most, we get a statement from the S. Dalamadur Ripper:

A giant hooked claw capable of tearing heaven and earth into tatters.
Click to expand...

Which is pretty similar to the regular Dalamadur's scaling, albeit more violent sounding, but without fire. So where did it come from?

The source of the fire-born earth-shaking statement on Shah Dalamadur's part is a 2017 MH wiki post documenting BannedLagiacrus (trustworthy source on MH lore esp. from Japanese artbooks and official content)'s finds on Dalamadur and Shah Dalamadur.

The Shah Dalamadur's tail rips the air and sky with fire. It gouges the land with its immense strength, shaking the earth in fire.
Click to expand...

It should be noted that BannedLagiacrus has since come out with a more updated, in-depth, and sourced lore compendium twitter thread of Dalamadur and Shah Dalamadur lore from every available source (2020), and that this updated version didn't mention the whole world-shaking fire bit. So, I suspect that he had taken a material's description and made the fire statement using roughly analogous language. Not super clear one way or the other, though. Also, Shah is apparently a Dalamadur that recently shed its skin, not an actual subspecies. Didn't know that.

Oh, also one of the rare Dalamadur materials is a gem that can supposedly forge a new star purely from Dalamadur's life force lmao (though this is told as if in fable due to mentioning, like, the apocalypse, so it's not really rock solid evidence as I see it)
 
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Hmm... after rewatching the video, I'm actually pretty sure recalcing it would get a lower result, because the current calc uses a cloud thickness of 9900 meters, yet you can very clearly see an unaffected cloud layer (perhaps altocumulus?) above the storm weather, implying that the thickness can't be more than 8000 meters if we're being generous, or 2000 if we're being really masochistic. If the storm cloud really was 8000 to 11000 m tall, we'd see it behind the higher cloud layer while being dispersed, but it seems like all the movement's going on below.

This actually tracks with storm weather clouds in polar air being specifically noted to have a potential thickness of only 2000 meters, and it even appears that Kushala didn't clear away the clouds below the player's height, so it's more like Kushala vacated a really wide, flat pizza-shaped cylinder. Mega oof if true.
 
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