Seregios (Monster Hunter) Upgrade.

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

So Sunbreak has shown us that Seregios can throw hands with Gore Magala and despite being weaker in an actual melee confrontation it can knock Gore backwards with it's scales. This is consistent with the fact that Seregios is considered too dangerous for you to take on at the moment of it's introduction in Monster Hunter 4 Ultimate after you had already defeated both Gore Magala and Shagaru Magala. I propose we Upgrade Seregios to 6-C for these Feats and Statements.

Edit: Oh yeah, Seregios needs Body Control for being able to rapidly grow back and fire it's scales as projectiles.

 

[ElixirBlue]

I agree with the scaling and Body control

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Aight, that's one vote.

 

[Sigilavox]

I'd actually disagree with this; Azure Rathalos has a bout with a Seregios in 4 Ultimate and seems to actually be on the upper hand for the most part, landing several blows on and throwing the latter around throughout the cutscene, so unless we say that Azure Rathalos or Barioth ("tail end of a reckless battle" implies a battle happening at all) are also Elder level, I'd say that Seregios is intended to be on par with Rathalos and other apex creatures. I'm of the belief that if anything, this turf war suggests that Gore Magala should be on par with apex monsters rather than all the way up at Elder Dragon level.

It being fought after Shagaru is not really that much of a point for it, given that it's the typical fare for G-rank flagships to be fought in G-rank, which is always after the base game story. Or Velkhana could be above Xeno'jiiva level, given how the Commander really doubted the Commission could take it on in spite of the Sapphire Star, who has already slain several Elder Dragons including the young emperor, being among their number.

All for Body Control, though!

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I'd actually disagree with this; Azure Rathalos has a bout with a Seregios in 4 Ultimate and seems to actually be on the upper hand for the most part, landing several blows on and throwing the latter around throughout the cutscene, so unless we say that Azure Rathalos or Barioth ("tail end of a reckless battle" implies a battle happening at all) are also Elder level, I'd say that Seregios is intended to be on par with Rathalos and other apex creatures. I'm of the belief that if anything, this turf war suggests that Gore Magala should be on par with apex monsters rather than all the way up at Elder Dragon level.

I mean the first time we ever see a Gore Magala on-screen is in the Intro Movie before the game starts where it literally One-Shots a Tigrex so it's very clearly shown to be superior to Apex Monsters and Seregios still has those statements and feat going for it.

It being fought after Shagaru is not really that much of a point for it, given that it's the typical fare for G-rank flagships to be fought in G-rank, which is always after the base game story. Or Velkhana could be above Xeno'jiiva level, given how the Commander really doubted the Commission could take it on in spite of the Sapphire Star, who has already slain several Elder Dragons including the young emperor, being among their number.

Tbf, didn't Velkhana unironically K.O. the Sapphire Star at one point? I swear I remember that happening but it doesn't help that I was never able to get my hands on Iceborne for myself.

All for Body Control, though!

Aight.

 

[Sigilavox]

I mean the first time we ever see a Gore Magala on-screen is in the Intro Movie before the game starts where it literally One-Shots a Tigrex so it's very clearly shown to be superior to Apex Monsters and Seregios still has those statements and feat going for it.

While that intro movie was impressive, stuff like that happens in cutscenes all the time to show how threatening an introduced monster is.

In its Rise cutscene, Diablos completely and unquestionably defeats both Anjanath and Barroth at the same time with a single hit, while it's shown to tie with Anjanath in turf wars later on. It, too, took them by surprise in the cutscene, but turns out to actually be comparable with Anjanath in reality.

By the same metric, Ebony Odogaron kills an Odogaron by the exact same method Gore kills Tigrex - by snapping the neck, yet it is still considered to be a monster on the same level. Arguably, since Odogaron fought back and still got stomped while a wounded Tigrex was jumped with no chance to do anything in response before its neck was crushed, I'd say Ebony's showing is more impressive than Gore's due to no-selling and overpowering literally all of its opponent's attacks.

I think it's perfectly reasonable for a monster that's relatively in the same league as another to win by putting it in an extremely compromising position entirely by surprise and using that advantage to snap its neck, rather than necessarily having to be 820 million times more powerful. We even see with Gore's Ecology in Sunbreak that its wing arms are incredibly strong for its size, able to overcome a Goss Harag (granted, one that was already on its back) who previously broke from its regular claw grip, so yeah, I'd see that breaking a neck if it was able to surprise a monster with a relatively long neck as Tigrex. If we do get a Gore vs. Elder Dragon turf war, then I'd be all for it, but as of now, I don't see how Gore, and by extension Seregios, need to be in the same tier as the other Elder Dragons to do what they've been shown to do.

And again, Azure Rathalos and Barioth would have to be upgraded alongside Seregios if this goes through, considering they've clearly been able to fight one on equal terms (or even be winning) in the past. I don't think that'd fly, since then pretty much every monster stronger than a Tetsucabra would be Elder tier by these metrics.

Tbf, didn't Velkhana unironically K.O. the Sapphire Star at one point? I swear I remember that happening but it doesn't help that I was never able to get my hands on Iceborne for myself.

Oh yeah, that scene happened. Velkhana conjures ice crystals in the air for the first time, and said crystals dropped right on the Sapphire Star's head/back of neck. It actually makes a point of showing that the crystal landed on their head, probably to justify them conking out on the spot. But yeah, Velkhana was definitely treated by the Iceborne story as something so terrible as to justify the entire Commission evacuating, with something about 'the whole New World freezing over' or something to that effect after seeing just the frozen body of a single Anjanath. I can see it as a higher form of Elder for sure. Though it ties with Kushala and Teostra in turf wars, so idk.

 

[Chariot190]

At least [Azure Rath tier], at most [Gore tier].
Ez.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

While that intro movie was impressive, stuff like that happens in cutscenes all the time to show how threatening an introduced monster is.

In its Rise cutscene, Diablos completely and unquestionably defeats both Anjanath and Barroth at the same time with a single hit, while it's shown to tie with Anjanath in turf wars later on. It, too, took them by surprise in the cutscene, but turns out to actually be comparable with Anjanath in reality.

That's fair.

By the same metric, Ebony Odogaron kills an Odogaron by the exact same method Gore kills Tigrex - by snapping the neck, yet it is still considered to be a monster on the same level. Arguably, since Odogaron fought back and still got stomped while a wounded Tigrex was jumped with no chance to do anything in response before its neck was crushed, I'd say Ebony's showing is more impressive than Gore's due to no-selling and overpowering literally all of its opponent's attacks.

Ebony Odogaron really needs to be added to the Profile as a Second Key. I'm pretty sure it might unironically be Elder Dragon Tier given it absolutely stomped an Apex Monster with no Difficulty.

I think it's perfectly reasonable for a monster that's relatively in the same league as another to win by putting it in an extremely compromising position entirely by surprise and using that advantage to snap its neck, rather than necessarily having to be 820 million times more powerful. We even see with Gore's Ecology in Sunbreak that its wing arms are incredibly strong for its size, able to overcome a Goss Harag (granted, one that was already on its back) who previously broke from its regular claw grip, so yeah, I'd see that breaking a neck if it was able to surprise a monster with a relatively long neck as Tigrex. If we do get a Gore vs. Elder Dragon turf war, then I'd be all for it, but as of now, I don't see how Gore, and by extension Seregios, need to be in the same tier as the other Elder Dragons to do what they've been shown to do.

Gore Magala is still treated as being stronger than your average Apex Monster in MH4U though given the fact that you've fought several Apex Monsters before running into Gore Magala for the first time in 4 and yet couldn't kill it, only run it off the first time.

And again, Azure Rathalos and Barioth would have to be upgraded alongside Seregios if this goes through, considering they've clearly been able to fight one on equal terms (or even be winning) in the past. I don't think that'd fly, since then pretty much every monster stronger than a Tetsucabra would be Elder tier by these metrics.

I can't really defend Barioth but the Subspecies are usually treated as being stronger than the Normal Versions so maybe Azure Rathalos is just built different.

Oh yeah, that scene happened. Velkhana conjures ice crystals in the air for the first time, and said crystals dropped right on the Sapphire Star's head/back of neck. It actually makes a point of showing that the crystal landed on their head, probably to justify them conking out on the spot. But yeah, Velkhana was definitely treated by the Iceborne story as something so terrible as to justify the entire Commission evacuating, with something about 'the whole New World freezing over' or something to that effect after seeing just the frozen body of a single Anjanath. I can see it as a higher form of Elder for sure. Though it ties with Kushala and Teostra in turf wars, so idk.

Velkhana is a little inconsistent but I could've sworn that it was implied that Velkhana was looking for Shara Ishvalda like Ruiner Nergigante was for some reason. I could be completely bullshitting though because like I said before, I never got the chance to play Iceborne for myself.

 

[Sigilavox]

I'm pretty sure it might unironically be Elder Dragon Tier given it absolutely stomped an Apex Monster with no Difficulty.

Agreed about the key addition! Unfortunately, I'm not as certain about Ebony being Elder Tier, since it ties with all the regular apexes like Legiana, Glavenus, Tigrex, etc. in Iceborne turf wars, albeit it wins against Uragaan in similar fashion that Odogaron beats Radobaan. Iceborne subspecies were kind of weird that way.

Gore Magala is still treated as being stronger than your average Apex Monster in MH4U though given the fact that you've fought several Apex Monsters before running into Gore Magala for the first time in 4 and yet couldn't kill it, only run it off the first time.

Oh, totally agreed that Gore Magala is stronger than most, perhaps all Apexes! It's probably the strongest non-Elder Tier Monster in terms of ecological impact and average fight-winning prowess. I just don't see it as quite so high to occupy the same tier as its older version.

I can't really defend Barioth but the Subspecies are usually treated as being stronger than the Normal Versions so maybe Azure Rathalos is just built different.

Indeed, but Seregios is also stated to be a rival to regular red Rathalos, like in this quest description from 4 Ultimate. If Seregios was really so much more powerful as to be clearly superior to Rathalos, it wouldn't be considered a rival in-universe. A fight between the two might go in its species' favor more often than not, but I don't really see it as a one-sided stomp. In terms of raw power, a system such as Rathalos =< Seregios ≈ Azure Rathalos would ensure consistency with these feats and statements rather than Rathalos <<< Seregios ≈ Azure Rathalos ≈ Gore Magala ≈ Kushala Daora, Gaismagorm, etc. In the former system I can see Rathalos and Seregios being cultural rivals in the eyes of some people of the Old World, but I can't see such a discourse working out at all if it was the latter (As much as I'd love my underappreciated blue boi to get cred).

Velkhana is a little inconsistent but I could've sworn that it was implied that Velkhana was looking for Shara Ishvalda like Ruiner Nergigante was for some reason. I could be completely bullshitting though because like I said before, I never got the chance to play Iceborne for myself.

Honestly, I wish they really did something with Velkhana to that effect, but as the Iceborne book lays out, it just went to the mainland to get new scales for itself since Shara Ishvalda had killed the active volcano in the Hoarfrost Reach, causing Velkhana to leave in search of magma (i.e. Elder's Recess) to recover its scales, according to the new Iceborne book. Velkhana's weird, lol. btw Iceborne's definitely worth your time, I'd recommend it 100%.

 

[DMUA]

I actually have had a thread I've wanted to make for awhile that addresses that Gore probably shouldn't be 6-C, among many other things

But even in this context, Seregios just gets blatantly overpowered, before barely knocking them back and stabbing them a few times, so it seems iffy to scale off of that when they're mostly around Rathalos' level

 

[DMUA]

In terms of the Seregios being "too dangerous", Monster Hunter isn't really about constant power escalation per say. A monster being dangerous doesn't necessarily mean they hit harder than another one, it could be a special ability they have (in this case, the fact they can at will grow spikes and impale you from out of your range), and in general, every Monster is portrayed as a threat even if they logically shouldn't because you're a tiny human wearing monster skin you've scraped together, and they're a giant animal. Like, in Iceborne, you go from fighting a giant alien elder dragon that could potentially reek havoc across the entire world, to being worried about a fish in snow and your handler warning you about a Tigrex

That's probably way more flimsy than my first message but I felt I should throw it out there, just for reference on the fact that basing scaling on The Hunter fighting them can get pretty wack at times

 

[Sigilavox]

In terms of the Seregios being "too dangerous", Monster Hunter isn't really about constant power escalation per say. A monster being dangerous doesn't necessarily mean they hit harder than another one, it could be a special ability they have (in this case, the fact they can at will grow spikes and impale you from out of your range), and in general, every Monster is portrayed as a threat even if they logically shouldn't because you're a tiny human wearing monster skin you've scraped together, and they're a giant animal. Like, in Iceborne, you go from fighting a giant alien elder dragon that could potentially reek havoc across the entire world, to being worried about a fish in snow and your handler warning you about a Tigrex

That's probably way more flimsy than my first message but I felt I should throw it out there, just for reference on the fact that basing scaling on The Hunter fighting them can get pretty wack at times

Yeah, I'm of the exact same opinion; for example, the Guiding Lands cutscene has the Sapphire Star, sole slayer of Nergigante, Xeno'jiiva, Velkhana, and Shara Ishvalda, runs from a bog-standard Rathalos to the point of being backed up to the wall, flinching away from its attack and has to be saved by a bog-standard Zinogre. Like... the most dangerous threat in this world is always "the current situation", even if you faced a world-ender, you're really risking yourself going against a building level brachydios.

Alternatively, and most likely in line with the creators' intentions; all of these monsters are dangerous for the player hunter, with no victory being even likely, so everything is treated as a threat, and none of them are so far above each other so as to completely invalidate another if defeated; i.e. defeating a monster that collapsed a mountain doesn't mean you can just no-sell one that can only crush a tree. That last bit doesn't really mesh with the wiki's basic assumptions, though, so eh about that point.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

So what do we do with this?

 

[Sigilavox]

I don't think Seregios or Gore Magala are Elder Tier within the confines of this forum. If you asked me whether it's possible for a Seregios to kill an Elder Dragon like Kushala Daora, I'd say sure; it might even be likely depending on the individual, because strong members of regular Apex species have a decent chunk of evidence suggesting they can tangle with Elder Dragons, be it the tempered Black Diablos matching Elders and the regular scaring off Deviljho, the old Barioth variant fighting a Velkhana, the Pink Rathian not immediately folding to a Bazelgeuse, etc.

But if you ask me whether the Seregios profile belongs in High 8-C or 6-C, I'd say the former.

 

[DMUA]

The CRT I was talking about is completely ready

Straight up all I really need to do is find a solid video of a Hunter dodging Kirin lightning and I'd probably be able to make the two calcs I really need to to wrap it all up

Now, as per how easy it would be to find a video like that, I dunno

come to think of it there's no real reason I shouldn't just get on top of it as of now

 

[DMUA]

here