Monster Hunter General Discussion Thread.

[Sigilavox]

You know what just occurred to me? There's an old Monster Hunter Feat that no one has attempted to Calc yet. Remember in Monster Hunter 4 Ultimate when the Scarred Kushala Daora makes that massive ass Thunder Storm just by existing and when it leaves the Storm Disperses?

The rusted Kushala Daora's feat is here, where it leaves Dundorma and the storm clears over ~5.88 seconds. I did some rough math using the same cloud heights as the existing calculation and got 2.9 Gigatons as a high end.... which is at the top of Tier 7. I don't think the leftover clouds really matter here, since they don't appear to be a ceiling on the storm movement.

Edit: This is remarkably consistent with a quick recalculation of the existing storm dispersion feat using a new height of 4500 m, or the average altitude of altocumulus clouds; altocumulus is used due to being a patchwork cloud layer that mostly covers the overhead sky, and while the distance is blue, you can see later in the cutscene that there is still a grey cloud layer overhead. The lower end for that calculation is 155.8 Megatons and the higher end is 2.5 Gigatons, within 15%.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

God, I really need a ******* Zinogre Profile. The fact that we got ******* Gargwa before Zinogre is insulting.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

I just want to say, Rise (both base and Sunbreak) NPC are the best

 

[Sigilavox]

God, I really need a ******* Zinogre Profile. The fact that we got ******* Gargwa before Zinogre is insulting.

Is anyone working on one? I could make it.

 

[Sigilavox]

By the way, since the day-night cycles actively occur during hunts starting from World, is this sufficient evidence to say that Monsters can fight for several hours? For example, a Shagaru Magala hunt I partook in began at night in the Citadel and went well into daytime. Or should we just say non-Elders can fight for tens of minutes/dozens of minutes?

Edit: I made a CRT to standardize stamina on MH profiles; check it out here.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Is anyone working on one? I could make it.

No one is currently new additions aside from you and I and I've never made a whole Profile from scratch in my Life.

 

[Sigilavox]

Well, alright. Here it is: I only added stats for the regular species so far. I intend on eventually adding tabbers with the other versions (currently listed in the key), of course.

I didn't add the Howling, Immortal, or FFBE versions to the key simply due to lack of knowledge on them so far and feel like it'd get really cluttered if we added them. I'll probably add them eventually though.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Well, alright. Here it is: I only added stats for the regular species so far. I intend on eventually adding tabbers with the other versions (currently listed in the key), of course.

I didn't add the Howling, Immortal, or FFBE versions to the key simply due to lack of knowledge on them so far and feel like it'd get really cluttered if we added them. I'll probably add them eventually though.

We getting the Stygian Eventually but I love this starting point.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Soon, when 6-C Zinogre shows up from the High-Tier Missions and shit, I'll be able to throw Zinogre and Manectric at each other and be fair.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

You know, I bet we could get a bunch of awesome Calcs from the Monster Hunter Stories Kinship Attacks.

 

[Sigilavox]

Soon, when 6-C Zinogre shows up from the High-Tier Missions and shit, I'll be able to throw Zinogre and Manectric at each other and be fair.

Yeah, Thunderlord is very definitely 6-C and perhaps Apex as well.

 

[Sigilavox]

You know, I bet we could get a bunch of awesome Calcs from the Monster Hunter Stories Kinship Attacks.

lmao those are nuts for sure... although I'm not sure they're quite 6-C. Monsties are possibly 5-A due to harming Oltura, though?

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

lmao those are nuts for sure... although I'm not sure they're quite 6-C. Monsties are possibly 5-A due to harming Oltura, though?

You can certainly make the Argument, though some are clearly superior to others. Some of them have Feats that might finally get monsters past the Class 100 Feat from Tetsucabra.

 

[Sigilavox]

You can certainly make the Argument, though some are clearly superior to others.

Finally, 5-A Aptonoth.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Finally, 5-A Aptonoth.

XD

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Supernoth is just Built Different.

 

[JoshSSJGod]

Speaking of Stories, it actually shows that most monsters should get energy projection through the beam battle minigame. I know some might say "Shouldn't it not count due to the fact that they are artificially given new abilities?" and yes that is true but they are capable of it even as wild Monsters.

As for Stories 2 Monstie kinship attacks, they'd be tough considering how much they obscure the view (like the Tigrex one is impossible due to it) but they'd be very interesting. One of which that should prob be calc'd is Velkana's which has it both freeze an entire mountain range just by flying and create a massive ice ball that parts the sky via sheer size.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Speaking of Stories, it actually shows that most monsters should get energy projection through the beam battle minigame. I know some might say "Shouldn't it not count due to the fact that they are artificially given new abilities?" and yes that is true but they are capable of it even as wild Monsters.

As for Stories 2 Monstie kinship attacks, they'd be tough considering how much they obscure the view (like the Tigrex one is impossible due to it) but they'd be very interesting. One of which that should prob be calc'd is Velkana's which has it both freeze an entire mountain range just by flying and create a massive ice ball that parts the sky via sheer size.

There's also Rajang tearing a massive Boulder far larger than the one Tetsucabra lifts out of the ground.

 

[Sigilavox]

In all seriousness, I feel like Stories monsties should have their own pages or tabs or something rather than adding onto the base, since they are exclusive to the Stories games, and they run through a whole host of assumptions that mainline setting would never do - like hatching a Bloodbath Diablos or a Rajang from an egg, and the aforementioned beam clashes or counterattack nullification from effective attacks. Plus, I personally would prefer to keep universal MH powers and abilities down to avoid cluttering the pages too badly. Also, Kinship attacks are arguably a product of power amp when working with a Rider, not a natural ability of the monster (even though some kinship attacks appear to be regular-looking attacks like Teostra or Velkhana), which is further evidence away from using their feats for normal monster abilities. That's my take on it, at least.

 

[Sigilavox]

Also, when mounted, Riders and Monsties can survive any attack present in the games - including Oltura's Luminosity - at 1 HP, no matter what. It just knocks them off. What would that be considered?

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

In all seriousness, I feel like Stories monsties should have their own pages or tabs or something rather than adding onto the base, since they are exclusive to the Stories games, and they run through a whole host of assumptions that mainline setting would never do - like hatching a Bloodbath Diablos or a Rajang from an egg, and the aforementioned beam clashes or counterattack nullification from effective attacks. Plus, I personally would prefer to keep universal MH powers and abilities down to avoid cluttering the pages too badly. Also, Kinship attacks are arguably a product of power amp when working with a Rider, not a natural ability of the monster (even though some kinship attacks appear to be regular-looking attacks like Teostra or Velkhana), which is further evidence away from using their feats for normal monster abilities. That's my take on it, at least.

Well we were supposed to make Rider Profiles awhile back but no one did.

Also, when mounted, Riders and Monsties can survive any attack present in the games - including Oltura's Luminosity - at 1 HP, no matter what. It just knocks them off. What would that be considered?

Game Mechanics.

 

[Sigilavox]

Well we were supposed to make Rider Profiles awhile back but no one did.

Hmm. I feel as though when they do get created, it might be best to make a Rider profile and change its abilities based on what Monstie it has, probably using the mother of all tabbers to sort them out in nested folders by classification; i.e.

• Rider (No Monstie)
  • Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Weapon Mastery, etc.
• Rider (Monstie)
  • Brute Wyvern
    • Deviljho
      • Mind Manipulation and Madness Manipulation, Pain Manipulation, etc.
    • Glavenus
      • Explosion Manipulation, Breath Attack, etc.
  • Elder Dragon
    • Nergigante
    • Teostra

...and so on, rather than changing every existing monster's profile.

Also, added Stygian to the sandbox.

 

[JoshSSJGod]

In all seriousness, I feel like Stories monsties should have their own pages or tabs or something rather than adding onto the base, since they are exclusive to the Stories games, and they run through a whole host of assumptions that mainline setting would never do - like hatching a Bloodbath Diablos or a Rajang from an egg, and the aforementioned beam clashes or counterattack nullification from effective attacks. Plus, I personally would prefer to keep universal MH powers and abilities down to avoid cluttering the pages too badly. Also, Kinship attacks are arguably a product of power amp when working with a Rider, not a natural ability of the monster (even though some kinship attacks appear to be regular-looking attacks like Teostra or Velkhana), which is further evidence away from using their feats for normal monster abilities. That's my take on it, at least.

If its just the monsties themselves and all they can get through the Rite of Channelling then sure as that is a valid version of that character. For the wild monsters or stuff they learn naturally however, that is valid to add to the base profiles as it would the same character doing a new feat in another setting. It would be unfair to not give the monsters the abilities they naturally have in stories as it would be intentionally nerfing the character for the sake of a preference when the point of the wiki is to index everything a character can do.

Also, when mounted, Riders and Monsties can survive any attack present in the games - including Oltura's Luminosity - at 1 HP, no matter what. It just knocks them off. What would that be considered?

Game mechanics at worse, limited invulnerability at best.

Though for the Rider's profile, we'd have to make 2 (one for each game) as the abilities and monsties differ for each rider. When I got time I'll handle the creation of the profiles since they'll probably be the most haxxed thing in MH unless we use the armour descriptions from the series for the Hunter.

 

[Sigilavox]

If its just the monsties themselves and all they can get through the Rite of Channelling then sure as that is a valid version of that character. For the wild monsters or stuff they learn naturally however, that is valid to add to the base profiles as it would the same character doing a new feat in another setting. It would be unfair to not give the monsters the abilities they naturally have in stories as it would be intentionally nerfing the character for the sake of a preference when the point of the wiki is to index everything a character can do.

Fair enough about the wiki standard. About Breath Blast, though: I definitely remember that it's only possible if the monster has an innate elemental move or element, making it basically Fire or Electricity Manipulation or whatnot, just in a concentrated line. It's kind of like a conditional clash like the flight race, which requires a particular trait to be available on both participants to actually happen. What about that would require the addition of Energy Projection?

 

[JoshSSJGod]

Fair enough about the wiki standard. About Breath Blast, though: I definitely remember that it's only possible if the monster has an innate elemental move or element, making it basically Fire or Electricity Manipulation or whatnot, just in a concentrated line. It's kind of like a conditional clash like the flight race, which requires a particular trait to be available on both participants to actually happen. What about that would require the addition of Energy Projection?

Basically it does require an element so monsters like Nergigante can't do it. Fire, Electric, Ice, Dragon and Water monsters can do it tho (the video example ya gave is of Ludroth a water monster doing it).

 

[Sigilavox]

Basically it does require an element so monsters like Nergigante can't do it. Fire, Electric, Ice, Dragon and Water monsters can do it tho (the video example ya gave is of Ludroth a water monster doing it).

Yeah, I agree - but that means breath blasts could just be rolled into the main "Fire Manipulation" or what have you ability for each monster as part of the justification. No need for a whole other line with Energy Projection in that case. Maybe just link to Energy Projection in the description at most.

 

[Sigilavox]

While we're on the topic of cleaning profiles, I really think Dalamadur should just scale to the 1 teraton earth-shaking calculation on the Common Feats page and drop the High 6-A rating because the single reason why it was originally given that rating was that at the time, High 6-A was the wiki standard for earth shaking. Now, it's Low 6-B. A creature wouldn't even have to be Mountain level to do the things it does in-game, anyways, so it's not like this would contradict or downplay its actual appearances. As such, Xeno'jiiva would scale up to twice that, or just to Zorah Magdaros.

Also, the skeletons in the vale were specifically mentioned to be a distant ancestor of Dalamadur, and not Dalamadur, going by the Official Dive into World, for what it's worth.

...or we could have Dalamadur be Star level because of its gem description. I have reservations about using that though, given that it seems even more fable-like than most material descriptions.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

While we're on the topic of cleaning profiles, I really think Dalamadur should just scale to the 1 teraton earth-shaking calculation on the Common Feats page and drop the High 6-A rating because the single reason why it was originally given that rating was that at the time, High 6-A was the wiki standard for earth shaking. Now, it's Low 6-B. A creature wouldn't even have to be Mountain level to do the things it does in-game, anyways, so it's not like this would contradict or downplay its actual appearances. As such, Xeno'jiiva would scale up to twice that, or just to Zorah Magdaros.

I'll probably make a CRT for that eventually.

Also, the skeletons in the vale were specifically mentioned to be a distant ancestor of Dalamadur, and not Dalamadur, going by the Official Dive into World, for what it's worth.

...or we could have Dalamadur be Star level because of its gem description. I have reservations about using that though, given that it seems even more fable-like than most material descriptions.

I mean it's not like Celestial Bodies haven't been ****** with by Monsters before, isn't that right White Fatalis making both a Solar Eclipse that lasts for half an hour and also potentially a ******* Black Hole.

 

[Sigilavox]

To have Dalamadur and the Black Dragons + Safi be 4-C would be something to see.

 

[Sigilavox]

Oh, I just remembered: Pink Rathian have been known to drive away Bazelgeuse with their poison, and tempered Black Diablos are specifically noted to have physical strength equal to Elder Dragons and enough power to force Deviljho to flee in the Dive Into Monster Hunter: World world/ecology book. What implications would you folks say this has on tiering for the verse?

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Oh, I just remembered: Pink Rathian have been known to drive away Bazelgeuse with their poison, and tempered Black Diablos are specifically noted to have physical strength equal to Elder Dragons in the Dive Into Monster Hunter: World world/ecology book. What implications would you folks say this has on tiering for the verse?

That the gap between Apex Monsters and Elders is smaller than people give it credit for.

I don't know, Poison is Hax while Diablos has always been portrayed as being ridiculously strong in pure Physicals and with Black Diablos being Diablos on Crack it might just push the whole Subspecies are stronger than the Normal Species thing the series flip flops on every once in awhile.

 

[Sigilavox]

That the gap between Apex Monsters and Elders is smaller than people give it credit for.

Yeah, and since Diablos and Black Diablos contest each other in turf wars with either potentially coming out on top, and Anjanath tieing with Diablos... it's kind of anyone's guess.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Baseline 6-C Monster Hunter is kinda killing me inside lel

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Definitely not baseline, poison ain't quite AP applicable and Diablos is the peak of the non-Elder Dragons, alongside Rathalos.

Personally I'd list Diablos (and thus Rathalos and arguably Rathian) as a "possibly 6-C", based on that intel, given at other times it is made clear that Elder Dragons pose a substantially bigger threat. Obviously nab a scan from that guidebook.

 

[Sigilavox]

Obviously nab a scan from that guidebook.

Will do. I have the photos on my phone, but I haven't made a sandbox for either monster yet.

Personally I'd list Diablos (and thus Rathalos and arguably Rathian) as a "possibly 6-C", based on that intel, given at other times it is made clear that Elder Dragons pose a substantially bigger threat.

Honestly, I think that since especially powerful individuals of a non-Elder species can reach Elder Dragon level, such as the Deviants, Tempered monsters, or Frostfang Barioth (which apparently was seen in a fierce battle with a Velkhana in the new Iceborne Book (scans definitely exist, I'll find them eventually), then I theorize that any given specimen of a Rathalos-adjacent monster has the potential to reach the point of challenging Deviljho, Elders, etc., but the average specimen is definitely lower on the ladder. I kind of like "High 8-C, possibly 6-C" for these such species in this case.

• Any species with a Deviant, including Rathalos/Rathian, Diablos, etc.
• Barioth (due to Frostfang which are just old Barioth)
• Brachydios possibly? Raging is definitely considered to be at least on the same level as Jho or Jang, and in fact its quests in previous games give more money and HR points than both Furious Rajang and Savage Deviljho's (1510 HRP versus 1440 HRP for both Furious Rajang and Savage Deviljho) and given its appearance in Iceborne alongside Furious Rajang, it's definitely considered to be at least on the same level.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Honestly for the apex creatures I'd list them as "At least High 8-C", since Barroth is kind of chicken shit compared to them. Diablos one-taps the damn thing, with a good shot.

It's a common enough trope that older creatures are stronger so I don't really agree with baseline Barioth doing this without other scaling than to Frostfang.

Iffy on Brachy, too. I don't know enough about it, basically.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Honestly for the apex creatures I'd list them as "At least High 8-C", since Barroth is kind of chicken shit compared to them. Diablos one-taps the damn thing, with a good shot.

Our current Scaling comes from Lagiacrus, not Barroth. Lagiacrus performed a High 8-C+ Feat just by casually slapping a pillar in MH3U.

It's a common enough trope that older creatures are stronger so I don't really agree with baseline Barioth doing this without other scaling than to Frostfang.

Fair.

Iffy on Brachy, too. I don't know enough about it, basically.

Raging Brachydios is almost always treated as a higher rank Monster than Deviljho and we all know how absurdly strong that ****** is.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Oh, I forgot about that calc. Forgive me, I'd remembered the Barroth calc for so long, it must've taken root in my mind, hah.

Raging Brachydios is fine, I agree the variant monsters seem to generally be on par with at least baseline Elder Dragons. Or, at least, not far removed from them. I'm talking about basic Brachydios. Him I'm iffy on.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

You know, I just noticed that Raging Brachydios is noted to be more powerful on it's Profile and yet it didn't even get so much as an "At Least High 8-C+ Rating" let alone the 6-C it deserves to be.

 

[JoshSSJGod]

Playing through Stories 2 again, seems I missed even more stuff Oltura can do. For example it can nullify abilities, make people unable to attack through attack sealing (basically it makes people unable to even do stuff like basic attacks) and more status effects such as paralysis and burn.

There is also an argument for Type 7 immortality for Oltura since even after it "died" to the previous Razewing Rathalos it was still active in it's larval state which it used to be born again.