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I still agree with Deagonx, as I have a similar experience of Xearsay based on what I remember of previous superhero threads that he has participated in. However, let's return to the main topic please.
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DC Comics - Animal Man Cosmology Determination
- Thread starter Xearsay
- Start date
- Status
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He literally states that he's "everywhere and nowhere in the space of his own mind" while creating the universe from the Space Beyond All Knowing. So he definitely does treat the universe he created as a dream.
I don't see how your point is valid here, many cosmologies run off of just "theories." James Highwater also didn't express uncertainty about what the Implicate Order theory is. James Highwater expressed uncertainty about whether the Implicate Order theory aligned with Buddy's experience.
Ok but there's a multitude of evidence that points towards James Highwaters theory aligns with Buddies experience.
1. The Yellow Aliens would call Limbo the higher world out of which we are unfolded (Scan is posted in the main post). Which is a reference to the Implicate Order theory as our reality is unfolded from it.
2. The Yellow Aliens would also state that James Highwaters and Buddy's experience in Arizona taught them something about the physical nature of reality. (Animal Man #23)
What do you mean by "It's never said what it is at all"? Also I'm not making any assumptions to tier it. The Lifeweb(a structure comprised of the hierarchy of universes) is stretching into infinity. There's no assumption in that.
That's Writer telling Buddy that they're inside a comic book, doesn't mean he exist outside of the comic book. What you're saying is not a fundamental concept at all. The Writer is very much is a real character and is shown existing inside of Comic Book Limbo in his own little house and everything. You're acting like because an author avatar that he transcends our comic book medium. Which is ridiculous for reasons I shouldn't even have to explain.
Can you reiterate your question then? Because I'm a little confused on what you're asking.
You just replied to a snippet of my comment, ignored the main explanation in my reply, and then repeated your stance. Like I said before, James Highwater stating "When you talked about Heaven, I think what you meant the Implicate Order" only means that his interpretation of Buddy's experience is questionable. And those several cultural myths he rotated through, were just different ways previous cultures represented the Implicate Order. It doesn't mean that the explanation for David Bohm's Implicate Order theory is wrong.
You realize that you can 4th wall awareness and see a lower reality as R>F right? Just because they have 4th wall awareness doesn't mean they also don't see a lower reality as fiction. And you haven't given a single reason for why we should ignore the blatant statement of them treating the lower reality like a story to be read for entertainment.
You seem to be under the impression that I have to explain things in the order that you want. I don't have to explain things in the order that you'd prefer. Personally I think explaining both of those things at the same time would make the discussion look very messy. So I preferred in that thread to explain things in a more organized manner, which is 100% my choice to make. I digress, that still doesn't prove that I was refusing to explain the tiers.
I meant to say "my first created Animal Man thread." Regardless, my tier suggestions are not almost identical and the organization of the cosmology, the evidence I gathered, and the reasoning is drastically different.
My favorite DC character is Superman and I haven’t even made a single thread about Superman. So I don't know where you're getting this from.
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This is a non-sequitur. How does that mean he treats it like a dream?
What? This isn't a rebuttal. If the only evidence for this being true about the cosmology is a human theorizing, then we don't actually have proof.
Right, which means he isn't sure if Bohm's theories are appropriate for explaining what happened to Buddy. That's the entire point.
1. That's only one aspect of Bohm's theory and it doesn't support a higher tier.
2. The Yellow Alien is literally acknowledging the fact that these are just theories that Highwater is working on and he doesn't actually know.
You said that "they don't say the infinity is time and space." But they never say what it is, so why are we assuming in order to tier it? You are assuming the infinity reaches into "higher levels" but there's no evidence of that.
Your incredulity is not an argument.
How does the phrase "all ideal worlds imaginable as just attempts to describe it's infinite possibility" support 1-A?
His mention of Bohm's theory is just one of several theories he offers as interpretations of Buddy's experience. There is no reason to take Bohm's theory at 100% face value than there is to take any of the various myths as 100% true. The myths are not how various culture 'represented' the Implicate Order. It's how Buddy's experience could be interpreted through the lens of various theories, legends, and myths.
First, this statement is made by a character who doesn't know what limbo is. Second, it's not stated that the stories are to entertain Limbo. He says "I don't know, gods?" Referring to the reader, not Limbo.
You have to explain things to promote a CRT. If you do not explain why your evidence supports a tier, then there is no CRT. It's just that simple. You don't have to if you don't want to, but then the CRT will just be closed and we will move on to more relevant discussions.
It is almost completely identical with minor changes to the tiers suggested. It's more organized than the other thread, but not much else. You are still relying on the same previously debunked falsehoods.
Characters plural. Not "your favorite."
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Admittedly, this is my mistake. You did not make those threads, you participated in them and proposed similar tiering with information that was previously rejected.
BTW, I don't agree that you should be banned from discussing this topic or making DC related threads, I never said or even suggested that. I was simply correcting another user who accused Deagon and Ant of proposing a topic ban because they believed you were arguing in a non-polite manner, which isn't the case.
Just so we're clear, just because you may or may not agree with upgrading other parts of the collective DC cosmology does not have anything to do with the current thread. If you don't have the proper evidence to justify the proposed tiering, then it's wank. Whether or not you disagreed with other wank isn't relevant
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If the universe is essentially the space of my own mind, then that implies I can treat it akin to the imaginary. Combined with the rest of the evidence of the universe being just the space of the dream, this would warrant a higher tier.
I already went over in my last comment that we have evidence to support why this is true about the cosmology with my two examples involving statements made by the yellow aliens. Plus I also mentioned another scan in this comment that directly proves the Implicate Order exist within the verse.
Read above.
The point is that it still implies that the Implicate Order is a real thing in the cosmology. We even get a reference to it later on in Animal Man when Buddy senses the "Explicate unfolding from the Implicate." Also I wasn't using that scan as the only reason to support a higher tier.
You know what the Yellow Aliens also acknowledged? That his theories were close to the truth.
I already told you that each stretch of the infinity supporting higher levels was an argument made by someone else that I was unsure about. The only thing I do know about the Lifeweb stretching into infinity is that it must be stretching into a greater infinity. That's all.
I mean you're argument is pretty ridiculous. You want me to believe The Writer transcends the comic book medium that he's clearly shown existing inside of. Something you've given absolutely no evidence for. Your only argument to support the Writer transcending the comic was saying "it's the fundamental concept crucial to his appearance" which means nothing in the face of the fact that it's not possible for a fictional character to transcend the comic book they're in.
You mean high 1-A? And similarly to the unfolding scan, I'm not using this scan as a sole reason for why I believe Limbo to be High 1-A.
He didn't offer any other theories. He just talked about how the Implicate Order theory was represented in other cultures. I can literally quote the scan.
"Our culture has lost sight of this higher reality. So called primitive peoples knew better, the Aborigines called it the dream time. The Yaqui Indians knew it as Nagual."
He clearly does as the entire conversation during this part of the issue is centered around the higher world which they're unfolded. He even goes along to explain how the characters who entered reality from the Psycho Pirates mind were just old fashioned characters who don't fit the continuity anymore. Also no where does it mention that he's talking about the reader and that would contradict the context of the situation.
Yes and I was going to explain the tiers after I explained why the evidence was sufficient. Me saying I want to explain something else first before I explain the tiers is not the same as me "refusing" to explain the tiers. I don't know why you're so hellbent on trying to mischaracterize my behavior to make it seem like I was refusing to do something.
Literally the explanations are different, there's more evidence, there's more structures like the Multiverse for example, and the tiers are different. For example, The Space Beyond All Knowing went from low 1-A to low 1-C, The Implicate Order went from tier 0 to high 1-A, The Imaginal worlds went from 1-A+ to low 1-A, the Worlds Beyond the Third kingdom went from High 1-A to 1-A, etc. So you saying I made "minor changes to the tiers" is wrong.
I've only made three character threads, one on Animal Man, another on the Upside Down Man, and another on Mandrakk. Neither of those are favorite characters. So your previous statement about me "aggressively overtiering my favorite DC characters is" still wrong.
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This is a non sequitur. It is never stated that the universe is in the space of his own mind, and even if it did that wouldn't mean it's imaginary.
I have not seen any evidence that actually refers to the universe as a dream.
The yellow aliens never state what he said was true, they just said that he learned some things about the nature of the physical continuum. Once again, this is just a human theorizing. The aliens confirm this.
None of which supports a higher tier.
Which means they were partially wrong. Great scan, thanks.
You have offered literally zero evidence that it is a "greater infinity." It just says infinity. That's all.
Your incredulity is not an argument, once again. I am saying that the appearance of the Writer is a fiction itself. The character we see interact with Buddy is not actually the Writer, the dialogue makes this very clear. He is an avatar of the actual person writing the comic book, using it as a way to communicate with Buddy. Interpreting this as some ultra-powerful being who literally lives in Limbo, and thus scales to Limbo, is erroneous. His power is not connected to Limbo in any way shape or form, and there is no evidence his limited to it, bound to it, or needs to stay there.
Whether or not it's the sole reason you have to explain how/why this supports the tier you are suggesting.
Yes, he did. He's literally saying what he thinks Buddy meant, he's not certain. We've established multiple times that Highwater's words have to be taken with a grain of salt because he's merely a 3rd party observer and isn't sure of the nature of what's occurring.
In the scan they are literally looking directly at the reader, and they are explaining that they are stories for entertainment. We are the ones enjoying their stories. This is the entire point of this leg of the story and you are willfully ignoring it. The concept of entertainment is never once stated to be the characters in Limbo and it makes no sense whatsoever for that to be the case.
Likewise, the characters having this discussion don't actually know what Limbo is or it's nature, so there's no reason to take what they say at face value above and beyond other information we have about Limbo.
Once again, to conduct a CRT you have to do both. You can't wait until there is a consensus about the evidence before you explain your tiering suggestions. You did refuse, which is why the thread was closed.
Yes, you slightly lowered each of the suggestions and reformatted the post. Like I said.
No, it isn't. You can say they aren't your favorites, I don't think anyone cares or is actually focused on who your favorite characters are. When we say "favorite characters" we are referring to the battleboarding figures you have a fixation with. And while you may not make threads yourself about those things, you all but hijack other threads about subjects of interest with aggressive overtiering of those characters.
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I'm sorry, did we forget the tiering system?
Low 1-C: Characters who can affect, create and/or destroy the entirety of spaces whose size corresponds to one to two higher levels of infinity greater than a standard universal model (Low 2-C structures, in plain English.) In terms of "dimensional" scale, this can be equated to 5 and 6-dimensional real coordinate spaces (R ^ 5 to R ^ 6)
Nothing provided supports the conclusion that he treats a Low 2-C structured reality as some lower infinity
1-A: Characters who can affect objects with a number of dimensions equal to the cardinal aleph-2, which in practical terms also equals a level that completely exceeds Low 1-A structures to the same degree that they exceed High 1-B and below. This can be extrapolated to larger cardinal numbers as well, such as aleph-3, aleph-4, and so on, and works in much the same way as 1-C and 1-B in that regard.
Here we run into the same issue. What evidence supports tiering that should be anywhere near Outerversal or similar? I don't get why the extreme amounts of evidence and hard scaling to attain these tiers just mysteriously hasn't/doesn't apply to DC over the years.
Low 1-C: Characters who can affect, create and/or destroy the entirety of spaces whose size corresponds to one to two higher levels of infinity greater than a standard universal model (Low 2-C structures, in plain English.) In terms of "dimensional" scale, this can be equated to 5 and 6-dimensional real coordinate spaces (R ^ 5 to R ^ 6)
Nothing provided supports the conclusion that he treats a Low 2-C structured reality as some lower infinity
1-A: Characters who can affect objects with a number of dimensions equal to the cardinal aleph-2, which in practical terms also equals a level that completely exceeds Low 1-A structures to the same degree that they exceed High 1-B and below. This can be extrapolated to larger cardinal numbers as well, such as aleph-3, aleph-4, and so on, and works in much the same way as 1-C and 1-B in that regard.
Here we run into the same issue. What evidence supports tiering that should be anywhere near Outerversal or similar? I don't get why the extreme amounts of evidence and hard scaling to attain these tiers just mysteriously hasn't/doesn't apply to DC over the years.
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Because it doesn't exist.
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It is stated the Universe is the space of his own mind. If I recollect I already quoted and linked a scan in the main post talking about how it's the space of the dream.
"Everywhere in the space of the dream, worlds come to be without effort..."
And if the universe is his dream, why would we assume that he can't interact with it like it is a dream?
Read above.
Once again I already posted a scan that identifies the Implicate Order as a real thing within the cosmology. And also I was never using that scan to support tiers. I explicitly mentioned in my last comment that I'm using this scan to support the Implicate Order being a real thing within the cosmology.
It also means he is partially right which is further supported by the Implicate Order being a real thing that is shown to exist in the cosmology, as I posted in my last comment.
Since the Lifeweb already encompasses the hierarchy of universes then it logically follows that it has to be a greater infinity.
Why are you still using this argument? I already know The Writer we see interacting with Buddy is just an avatar of a real person. However what you fail to understand is The Writer being an author avatar of Grant Morrison, doesn't mean this avatar also transcends the comic. He's still very much a fictional character who lives in Limbo as he literally has a house there and is shown doing all of his plot manipulation on his computer while in his house.
You're not understanding what I'm saying. Why would I explain how Limbo is High 1-A using only one of the multitude of scans I mentioned in the main post to support the overall reasoning for the rating? If you want a reason for why it's High 1-A then you can read the reasoning I gave to Ant.
I'm not denying that he offered a separate interpretation of what he thinks Buddy saw. I'm denying your claim that he brought up "several theories" to explain what Buddy saw. However this aspect of our discussion is meaningless as I've already given proof that the Implicate Order is a real thing. So I see no point in arguing over this aspect of our discussion anymore.
James Highwater was not looking at the reader in that scan. James Highwater was literally talking to Ultraman who was pointing at the Great Light. As evident from what he's saying "I've been in there! I went in and it's terrible. White. Everything white and faces staring down."
The problem with what you're saying is that, they were correct. As it's verified in many other sources that Limbo is a place where characters who were removed from continuity go. It's even confirmed by Grant Morrison in an interview. So if we know that what they're saying about Limbo is correct, then why would we ignore them?
I was going to do both. I just wasn't going to do both at the same time. And I can wait until the evidence I'm using is accepted before moving on to tiers all I want. Matter of fact I'm pretty sure that's what Antvasima prefers in the first place. For us to first evaluate the evidence and then move on to tiers.
I didn't slightly lower each tier, I changed the tiers entirely. Unless you think Low 1-C is slightly lower than low 1-A. And you're still ignoring the fact that I added more evidence, restructured the cosmology, and added explanations for what each structure is.
You clearly care since you're the one who claimed that I "aggressively overtier all of my favorite characters." Also I don't know how I could have a fixation with any "battleboarding figures" on this site when I barely even participate in battleboarding on the site unless asked. The only battleboarding thread I've participated in all year was this one thread about Perpetua, where I was literally asked to participate. And I only commented a couple times in that thread anyway. Lastly, I don't recall ever hijacking any other threads attempting to aggressively over tier any "battleboarding figures" on this site. However if you have proof of me doing this you can post it. Otherwise you're just lying.
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Where is it stated that the Universe is his own mind, and what evidence is there to connect this scan to what Buddy said and is doing?
If the universe is his dream, surely there is evidence of him interacting with it like a dream, yes?
That does not mean that everything Highwater says is true. Plus the main points of contention in his statements is not only the stuff he said about the Implicate Order. Such as the Poe quote being used for the cosmology.
That does not logically follow, no. If the Lifeweb encompasses the hierarchy of universes, and is described as "stretching to infinity" it is a perfectly valid interpretation to consider the universes the aforementioned infinity. There's no evidence of it being a greater infinity.
You aren't listening to what I am saying. The power through which he does those things has nothing to do with Limbo, so it does not scale to Limbo. That's just where the story takes place, and thus where Grant decided to put his avatar for this storyline. You cannot scale the Writer's presence there to something pertaining to Limbo. That's wildly illogical.
I never asked you to make an argument just off of that scan. I am asking how that scan contributes to/supports your argument that it is 1-A. You haven't provided any explanation for that, and the reasoning you gave in the post likewise didn't address the tiering criteria.
This chain of comments was never about whether or not the Implicate Order is a real thing.
They literally look directly at the reader and say they can see something resembling faces, at the same time they are explaining that they are stories to be read (we are the one reading their stories.) It is obviously a reference to the reader.
And what are the faces, and where are they staring down from, if he saw these faces when he was in Limbo?
This was never the point of contention in any way. I am not contesting that it's a place for characters that are removed from the cosmology, so this is not a rebuttal. Knowing one correct thing about Limbo does not mean that everything they say about Limbo should be taken as true. Likewise, where did any of those characters state such a thing in the first place?
You can do whatever you want, but that makes it an invalid CRT if you refuse to explain how you are tiering. I am simply stating that if you expect to have a CRT go well, you have to explain why you are arguing for certain tiers, not just dump a bunch of scans.
You moved the Implicate Order from Tier 0 to High 1-A, Worlds Beyond from High 1-A to 1-A, World Soul stayed the same. So yes, your singular instance of a gap larger than one letter does not mean you didn't slightly lower them.
Literally the last Animal Man discussion became first and foremost a thread about your suggestions, which you have borderline copy and pasted to this thread. You then bumped it over and over and over again until someone took the bait.
Udlmaster
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To try and move on from this tired point:
In the scan it directly says, with the backdrop of the universe itself, "Everywhere in the Space of the dream, worlds come to be, without effort, yes... and the Enemy who mock this creation, where IS he?" as it zooms in on a planet.
Pretty obviously, that's them saying Reality is a dream, contained within someone or something's Imagination, as Imagination is infinite and life is "a simple thing, even an easy thing".
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BTW, this talking point is not "tired" at all. It's been elaborated on multiple times why this shouldn't count as being equal to a reality>fiction difference.
This isn't enough evidence to support the notion that the universe is quite literally construct of their imagination. What actual feats or evidence is there that the animal masters treat the universe as a lower ordered reality/dream? This idea that simply because the word dream is used in a statement means that there is Low 1-C levels of transcendence is nonsense.
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Udlmaster
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My response already explains it. Choosing not to read and comprehend it isn't my fault.
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Where are you getting any of this from the quote you provided, and what evidence is there that it applies to Animal Man?
Udlmaster
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I'm not saying it applies to Animal man, just that the statement that it is a Dream is true.
I make no prescriptions about Animal Man.
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Is there any evidence of anyone treating it like it's their own literal dream in such a way that it'd support an R>F difference?
Udlmaster
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If it is a Dream, then it's Reality-Fiction difference.
Your dreams are just your imagination.
On the page for "Reality-Fiction interaction", it provides the example of Azathoth.
Regardless of who is dreaming reality, someone is, objectively and unequivocally.
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What is the argument on this thread about?
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This is not a guarantee. Different setting treat dreams differently. Likewise, who's dream is it?
Also not a guarantee. A dream isn't necessarily being had by someone.
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Udlmaster, accusing me of not reading your post is not an argument. So in that case, thank you for conceding
Udlmaster
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Then we would take the default, which is a reality fiction difference.
For example, we are given basically nothing on Azathoth's dreaming of creation, in fact, despite the fact that he was the Dreamer, we still considered Yog-Sothoth to be technically superior to him in his own dream.
Yet, it's Reality-Fiction difference.
A Dream with no dreamer isn't a dream.
This ain't your moment, sit down.
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In the absence of evidence we shouldn't assume anything at all, let alone the most massive possible implication. Likewise, who decided this was the default?
Says who?
This is childish.
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Oh my god, we are literally going in circles of you asking for evidence of stuff I’ve already posted. The narration would state that Buddy felt like he was “everywhere and nowhere in the space of his own mind” while bringing forth the dream of the Universe. And obviously if something the universe exist as just the space of one’s dream, then it logically follows that one should be able to treat it like one. Assuming otherwise would contradict the very nature of it being a dream.
Like I said before, James Highwater is a physicist. Unless you have evidence that he’s lying, than we have no reason not to trust him on this given his credentials. Also there is no points of contention. The implicate Order is a thing that I already proved exists in the verse. You denying the facts means nothing here.
Not possible since at the top of the Lifeweb are realms outside of the hierarchy of universes. So the Lifeweb as an entire structure stretching to infinity can’t be conflated with the hierarchy of universes stretching to infinity. As the hierarchy of universes isn’t the only structure within the Lifeweb.
You do realize this “power” the writer utilizes to alter and control the reality beneath him, is literally a computer that sits inside his house within Limbo right? (Animal Man #25) Also yes we can scale the Writers presence there to Limbo, as Limbo is the world/reality that he lives in. Unless he’s shown to exist beyond Limbo(which he hasn’t), then Limbo is essentially his reality, along with all the other authors who exist there. Similarly to how the universe is essentially our reality that we live in.
Yes and I’m telling you that what you’re asking doesn’t make any sense. As you’re asking me how one out of a multitude of scans supports my entire argument for how it’s high 1-A. Which is essentially a trap question. If you want my reasoning for why it’s high 1-A you can read my tier proposal comment to Antvasima.
It was about whether James Highwaters interpretation of the Implicate Order is questionable or not. Which it obviously isn’t as he’s a physicist who specializes in these types of things. Your only reason for it being questionable is literally a misinterpretation of the text.
You’re cutting out the context. Buddy and Ultraman were literally looking into the Great Light as shown in the scan right before the one that talks about the R>F difference. This is why Ultraman says “I've been in there! I went in and it's terrible. White. Everything white and faces staring down.” If he was pointing at the reader that would imply that Ultraman has been into our reality. And if I recollect I haven’t seen a caped alternate version of Superman flying around our planet.
Your overall point was that “they didn’t know what Limbo is” and now you’re saying they know “one correct thing about Limbo…” So your point of contention here has been essentially debunked. you’ve just admitted that James Highwater, The Psycho Pirate, etc know stuff about Limbo.
You know, the only reason this aspect of our conversation has dragged out for so long is because you’re quite literally cutting off part of what I’m saying and then replying to that snippet of my comment with a repeated a lie. Give actual proof that I was refusing to provide evidence for the tiers, or stop derailing the thread.
The world soul did not stay the same. It went from 1-A+ to low 1-A, possibly 1-A. And regardless of what you consider to be slightly lower tiers, the point is that I changed everything.
How the hell does this support me hijacking threads to wank “battle boarding figures”??
The last Animal Man thread was literally a discussion thread where anyone was freely allowed to discuss the tier of Animal Man and what changes would need to be made. So me coming in and talking about Animal Man’s tier is not “hijacking a thread.” This is the second time you’ve lied and tried to mischaracterize my behavior. So I’ll repeat what I said earlier in this comment, provide actual evidence of me doing what you just claimed, or stop detailing my thread.
Transcending
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Tbh I have to still agree with Xearsay.
PrinceofPein
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I was asked to take a look at this thread, anyway I have only basic knowledge on DC so I will only go with what was provided and the claims
it was just a mixture of scans, yes they created a universe, now that can be either 3-A, High 3-A or low 2-C
"Imagination is infinite. imagination is easy. life is a simple thing, even an easy thing............ There is no arrogance in this power, no megalomania of frowning gods.......... Everywhere in the space of the dream, worlds come to be without effort.........."
Now this is a nice quote and all but this not an explicit proof of low 1-C, at most this is possibly low 1-C, and this is taking in context from the other scans.
Hell there is nothing about dreaming up universes, the space itself was just called space of the dreams.
You cannot give tier based on a name, but can be likely low 1-C
Its a question, any answer and depending on the answer will give the tier
This is also doing this
issue 14->issue 88-> issue 14
might be nitpicky, but how does this work?
rather it should be issue 14 and 14 -> issue 88
where did you see a hierarchy? or a mention of hierarchy?
anyway based on this the god is a solid low 1-C
Buddy sees himself in mirrors reflecting higher dimensions.............. then we have ".........the web of life stretching into infinity catches me, life captures life"
How does this say the higher dimensions he sees himself reflects in are infinite??
Anyway nothing here is remotely close or coherent, what is the relationship between imaginary worlds and lifeweb?
so far all I am seeing is 4-D imaginary realm, and that is still possibly
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof
also what is the relationship between the three kingdoms and lifeweb?
also the three kingdoms are a world below 3-D, then the 3-D world, and the world above human comprehension which in my book will be 4-D.
meme went from the world the 3-D world into the 4-D world and made the claim "this world is a world within a larger world, maybe a world within an infinite number of larger worlds....... the little idea knew it must search its home until it found a way to join the Big Idea"
1. this is not a claim that says there is an infinite number of larger worlds, it is a claim that he does not know but he can feel there is a single larger world, but if there is infinite larger worlds, he will keep searching until he finds the big Idea
2. If your said low 1-A world and 1-A, has a single transcendence over a 3-D world, how are higher D supposed to be higher infinities or R>F?
3. Where was it stated to conceptually transcend the three kingdoms, as that was your claim
also there is a clear difference between "You need to become pure thought to reach this worlds" and "To see the soul of the world, you must clothe your own soul in the robes of imagination"
Anyway where is the proof of transcendence?
and it must not be a proof of transcendence but inaccessibility, there is a stairs that goes from the world beyond the three kingdoms into the three kingdoms
like common
anyway there is no proof of 1-A to begin with
1. This is extremely Incoherent
2. It is full of leap in logic
3. There is mostly little to no correlation between all the things he says
4. Did anyone that agreed with this thread actually read it?
Anyway the only thing I see here is a solid 1-C cosmology
Well this is valid for a 2-A
no nothing here supports low 1-C
it was just a mixture of scans, yes they created a universe, now that can be either 3-A, High 3-A or low 2-C
"Imagination is infinite. imagination is easy. life is a simple thing, even an easy thing............ There is no arrogance in this power, no megalomania of frowning gods.......... Everywhere in the space of the dream, worlds come to be without effort.........."
Now this is a nice quote and all but this not an explicit proof of low 1-C, at most this is possibly low 1-C, and this is taking in context from the other scans.
Hell there is nothing about dreaming up universes, the space itself was just called space of the dreams.
You cannot give tier based on a name, but can be likely low 1-C
2-A. Everything being a reflection of itself is just 2-A
I will need an actual statement to be able to validate your claim, not a drawing that is just 2-A
in an interconnected universe who is dreaming who
Its a question, any answer and depending on the answer will give the tier
This is also doing this
issue 14->issue 88-> issue 14
might be nitpicky, but how does this work?
rather it should be issue 14 and 14 -> issue 88
there is no hierarchy here
where did you see a hierarchy? or a mention of hierarchy?
anyway based on this the god is a solid low 1-C
low 2-c
Now this is just BS and straight up being disingenous
Buddy sees himself in mirrors reflecting higher dimensions.............. then we have ".........the web of life stretching into infinity catches me, life captures life"
How does this say the higher dimensions he sees himself reflects in are infinite??
it is outside space and time cause it is above 3-D, literally in the scan you sent, in this place that will be 4-D, certainly nothing higher
you really brought a scan that you used to prove low 1-C to prove low 1-A.
Anyway nothing here is remotely close or coherent, what is the relationship between imaginary worlds and lifeweb?
so far all I am seeing is 4-D imaginary realm, and that is still possibly
I am not a fan of your logic or the leaps in it, tbh, no explanation is needed, you really need to prove your claims
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof
anyway you have no prove of low 1-A lifeweb, it was a faulty assumption on your part
also what is the relationship between the three kingdoms and lifeweb?
also the three kingdoms are a world below 3-D, then the 3-D world, and the world above human comprehension which in my book will be 4-D.
meme went from the world the 3-D world into the 4-D world and made the claim "this world is a world within a larger world, maybe a world within an infinite number of larger worlds....... the little idea knew it must search its home until it found a way to join the Big Idea"
1. this is not a claim that says there is an infinite number of larger worlds, it is a claim that he does not know but he can feel there is a single larger world, but if there is infinite larger worlds, he will keep searching until he finds the big Idea
2. If your said low 1-A world and 1-A, has a single transcendence over a 3-D world, how are higher D supposed to be higher infinities or R>F?
3. Where was it stated to conceptually transcend the three kingdoms, as that was your claim
So let me get this straight again you are using a scan that you used for High 1-B to prove High 1-A?
also there is a clear difference between "You need to become pure thought to reach this worlds" and "To see the soul of the world, you must clothe your own soul in the robes of imagination"
Anyway where is the proof of transcendence?
and it must not be a proof of transcendence but inaccessibility, there is a stairs that goes from the world beyond the three kingdoms into the three kingdoms
A world that represent the middle ground between "our reality" and "the higher world" is not 1-A
like common
viewing 1-A as fiction is just another layer into 1-A
anyway there is no proof of 1-A to begin with
Conclusion
1. This is extremely Incoherent
2. It is full of leap in logic
3. There is mostly little to no correlation between all the things he says
4. Did anyone that agreed with this thread actually read it?
Anyway the only thing I see here is a solid 1-C cosmology
PrinceofPein
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Seriously try to read through the OP, it took me like 30mins to an hour, and see what I am saying
thats the problem with trying to join issues that dont really have anything in common together, you are filled with wholes in everything
thats the problem with trying to join issues that dont really have anything in common together, you are filled with wholes in everything
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There's a direct scan that talks about how reality is being dreamed by the Animal masters. So contrary to what you just said, yes there was stuff about dreaming up universes.
I’m not even quoting that part of the scan?
Also I didn’t quote a drawing. There’s text in the scan that talks about how the physical universe is a system of wholes comprised of smaller and smaller wholes that spirals down until our world/universe is like a cell body of god.
Also we know the Writer is asking a question, the point is that by wondering “who dreams who” he’s blatantly implying that beings in the interconnection are dreaming each other.
I saw a hierarchy in the scan. You just didn’t read it and then told a blatant lie that there was no text in it.
I already went over this earlier in the thread but this was essentially something I didn’t change and was mainly an argument created by someone else. So yeah you can ignore it. However the scan itself is still usable for scaling the higher realms.
No where does the text equate “outside of space and time” with “being above 3D.” The Imaginal worlds sit at the top of the Lifeweb outside of the hierarchy of universes which are also a part of the Lifeweb.
I’m not a fan of you not reading stuff and then pretending like you did, but I don’t say anything about it.
Also where are you even getting this from? I’m not even using that part of the scan for my reasoning in this thread. Literally no where in this thread did I mention the infinite larger worlds scan. So I don’t understand who you’re arguing against here.
The relationship between the Lifeweb and the three kingdoms is that the lifeweb encompasses space, time, and the third kingdom which sits at the top. It then stretches to infinity.
1. This is assuming everything you’ve said about the imaginal worlds is correct, which it’s not. For multiple reasons.
2. I said it conceptually “encompasses” the three kingdoms as the big idea and also transcends it as the whole amongst wholes. No where did I say it “conceptually transcends it.”
I'm not saying the Worlds beyond the third kingdom are High 1-A? Did you even look at the tiers I proposed? Also that’s not the part of the text I’m quoting. The part of the text I’m quoting is this “Free yourself from the bonds of matter. Let yourself pass away, becoming pure energy, pure thought."
I didn’t even tier the Great Light. Firestorms the one who said it was 1-A. And his reasoning was based more around it being a manifestation of the Overvoid or the comic book page.
It doesn't just view 1-A as fiction. It's beyond the very framework(story) that defines the lower parts of reality. It's also beyond all ideal worlds imaginable to the point where they're just attempts at trying to describe the Implicate Orders infinite possibility.
None of this is incoherent and I don't recall using any leaps of logic. You question if people read the thread when you clearly didn’t. You openly claimed that a certain scan was just a “drawing” when it had text in it, and then started arguing about parts of scans I never even referred to in this thread.
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How can you tell people to read through the main post when you didn't even properly read it yourself?? Also I didn't join issues together, 90% of the scans I used to provide information on each structure are from either the same issue or are only a few issues a part.
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No, we aren't. This is literally the problem. You keep editorializing the scans and I keep having to ask for evidence. Where does the narration say it was "the dream of the universe?"
You'd be far better off if you just dropped this whole "the universe is just a dream to Buddy" nonsense because it's becoming increasingly clear you have no evidence for it.
You have posted literal scans with aliens saying that what Highwater said was only "partially true."
And I never said he was lying. I said he was wrong, very big difference between the two and it's extremely dishonest to equate them.
First, you need to post scans for statements like that. Second, even if it was a different infinity, that wouldn't prove that it is a qualitatively greater infinity if you don't have evidence that that is the case.
No other authors have been shown to exist there, and there's no evidence that he can only use his powers with the computer. Likewise, no, we do not scale the Writer to Limbo simply because he has been there. Simply being in a realm doesn't scale you to that realm or vice versa.
Yes. Each piece of evidence should contribute meaningfully to the overall conclusion. Are you saying you are not willing to explain how this piece of evidence supports 1-A? Or are you going to dip and dodge like last time?
No, it would mean that Ultraman could see our faces staring down at him from Limbo. Who are you theorizing the faces staring down are, if not the reader?
I never said "everything they say about Limbo is wrong" and the idea that disproving that will make this huge error in your CRT go away is laughable. Not everything they say about Limbo can be taken at 100% face value without further evidence, and I maintain that this is based on a willful misreading of what Limbo represents in this story.
Limbo does not view the multiverse as a story for their entertainment. Characters in Limbo are aware that they themselves, as well as the multiverse, are fictional for the entertainment of us, the reader.
I didn't say you refused to provide evidence for the tiers. I said you refused to explain how the evidence you had supported the tiers you were suggesting, which you did, and you are doing again.
There have been no lies. What I have said is an accurate description of your behavior.
This scan doesn't say reality is dreamed by the Animal Masters. It says that life is dreamed by the Masters of the Real.
If your tiering is based on your opinion on the "implied" meaning of a vague philosophical question, then I'd go as far as to say you don't have any evidence at all.
How?
What is your basis for saying "it then stretches to infinity?" None of your scans support the idea that the Lifeweb's "stretch to infinity" is about something specifically beyond space, time, or the third kingdom.
Source: Trust me bro
Where is that stated?
Ah, so it doesn't just view it as fiction. It super duper views it as fiction.
This is incoherent.
100%. I don't see how anyone can agree with the thread's logic, rather than simply supporting it's conclusion for personal reasons. The thread doesn't make any sense.
I think pain_to12's post was on point and did a very good job of explaining why the tiering suggestions xearsay gave are absolute nonsense. Which is why he has never been able to explain how his evidence supports the tiering suggestions in either of the threads.
Udlmaster
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We go with the most likely, hence why the "possibly" and "likely" affixes even exist.
You're more so changing the goal post now, because that's never how we've done things, we do assume things, especially likely things.
By definition:
"a series of events or images that happen in your mind when you are sleeping:" https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/dream
"a series of thoughts, images, or emotions occurring during sleep" https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dream
"A dream is an imaginary series of events that you experience in your mind while you are asleep." https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/dream
These all require the prerequisite of the Dreamer and Sleep, which is a verb, i.e someone doing something.
You are not clever, you're arguing for the sake of arguing.
And devolving to contrarianism is unfathomably lame brained.
I'm rather weary of people claiming victory in debates, especially when said people likely come from extremely toxic communities like the Discord Debate community, where such things are used as a measure to gaslight people into arguing more.
I have no patience for that, or for Contrarianist reactions, particularly, you, Antvasima, where you would normally ask that someone would not do an act in such a way because you well know the history of such people and how they behave.
To like the comment because you are particularly opposed to the argument to such a degree you would abuse your Admin and Mod privileges is becoming a frustrating trend.
I expect behaviour that is even and follows the behaviour you have set before, not to become soft-handed because it is said by the side you have thrown your weight behind is nothing short of shameful.
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Honestly I stand with Xearsay.
The Opposition has been absurdly vitriolic for no apparant cause.
The Opposition has been absurdly vitriolic for no apparant cause.
PrinceofPein
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Let me say this, if your proof of hierarchy is the statement about the human world being a cell of the body of god, then you have likely low 1-C god but there are other proof of solid low 1-C god.
And also I will like you to understand that one R>F is just one not a tier jump.
I’m not a fan of going in circles with arguments but here please tell me the corrrelation between these worlds/planes. And their size.
1. The main universe
2. The space beyond all Knowing
3. The three kingdoms
4. The Lifeweb
5. The world soul
6. World beyond the third kingdom
7. The great light
8. The-implicate order
What I mean is this as an example
Now these are examples of how it should have been not a long post of things that don’t relate.
So please make a post like this with the necessary scans in it, that actually explicitly says whatever you are claiming.
It can be extreme short even just like the examples
The worlds and the order in which they come and why one transcends another
And also I will like you to understand that one R>F is just one not a tier jump.
I’m not a fan of going in circles with arguments but here please tell me the corrrelation between these worlds/planes. And their size.
1. The main universe
2. The space beyond all Knowing
3. The three kingdoms
4. The Lifeweb
5. The world soul
6. World beyond the third kingdom
7. The great light
8. The-implicate order
What I mean is this as an example
Now these are examples of how it should have been not a long post of things that don’t relate.
So please make a post like this with the necessary scans in it, that actually explicitly says whatever you are claiming.
It can be extreme short even just like the examples
The worlds and the order in which they come and why one transcends another
PrinceofPein
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tag the person been toxic, don’t group all of them together
Also while at it, read the OP and please try and help me make sense of it
@Udlmaster I don’t know where you stand but do agree with the OP?
Also with your argument about dreams you are absolutely right in that aspect of dreams and reality having R>F. But the scan did not say “they are dreaming up the reality” it just says “this is a world of the dream”
Anyway try and read the OP
Udlmaster
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I stand with the Original Poster, yeah.
I don't think Animal Man is dreaming reality, merely that reality is a dream.
PrinceofPein
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Not sure what you are reading but Nothing here in the scan you are arguing about states that
Udlmaster
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While zooming in from the Universe to a Planet, the scan says: "Everywhere in the space of the Dream, worlds come to be without effort" as it's zooming in on a world.
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