DC Comics - Animal Man Cosmology Determination

[Deagonx]

Ant, I have taken a look at the thread and will post a full response later today once I am at my home computer.

 

[Deagonx]

What do you think about this?

So, I went back and compared the original rejected CRT against the suggestions here, and honestly the changes are very minimal.

Original:

The interconnected universe = 1-B
Space beyond all knowing = Low 1-A
Third kingdom = 1-A+
The world soul = 1-A+
Worlds beyond the third kingdom = High 1-A.
The clear Light = High 1-A
Implicate Order/CBL = Tier 0

Updated:

Multiple universes: 2-A
Space Beyond all knowing: Low 1-C
Hierarchy of Universes: 2-C to High 1-B
Lifeweb: Low 1-A
Peak of the Lifeweb: low 1-A
World Soul: 1-A
Worlds Beyond: 1-A
Implicate Order: High 1-A

The recommendations are only ever so slightly lowered, and the CRT still lacks explanation as to why the evidence supports the mentioned tier. This was why the last thread was rejected, an outright refusal to explain how the evidence supported the tiers. Even in this thread, the explanations don't actually reference the tier system or the criteria. I'll break it down.

Space Beyond All Knowing:

The tier of this realm is most likely Low 1-C as it’s the space of the dream where thought becomes the template and the Animal Masters bring forth the dream of the universe.

This doesn't explain how it's Low 1-C. It's a borderline incoherent sentence. Low 1-C is defined as "Characters who can affect, create and/or destroy the entirety of spaces whose size corresponds to one to two higher levels of infinity greater than a standard universal model (Low 2-C structures, in plain English.) In terms of "dimensional" scale, this can be equated to 5 and 6-dimensional real coordinate spaces"

There's no explanation as to how this space is multiple infinities above a standard universal model. The scans for the "space beyond all knowing" only say that it isn't of time and space, that it is a universe "hidden behind ours" and in a scan about imagination (which doesn't seem to reference the 'space beyond all knowing') it is said that "worlds come to be without effort."

None of this is even tangentially related to the idea of being infinitely above a universe and there's no explanation provided for why it would be.

James Highwater would claim all that we see or seem is but a dream within a dream.(Animal Man #19)

This is a very blatant misrepresentation of the evidence. He is quoting Edgar Allan Poe, not claiming this. He says "I don't know, does it matter? What did Poe say? 'All that we see, or seem, is but a dream within a dream.'"

The Lifeweb/The Red:

The suggestion that this is Low 1-A is also unexplained and wildly egregious. Low 1-A is defined as "Characters who can affect objects with a number of dimensions greater than the set of natural numbers, meaning in simple terms that the number of dimensions is aleph-1 (An uncountably infinite number, assumed to be the cardinality of the real numbers themselves), and therefore that such objects fully exceed High 1-B structures, which have only a countably infinite number of dimensions."

Where are uncountably infinite dimensions coming from? The evidence says that the Lifeweb spans both space and time, and that Buddy "recognizes himself in Mirrors reflecting higher dimensions." But there is no reference to how many there are, or the nature of these dimensions. It also says that the Lifeweb stretches toward infinity, but the word infinity doesn't imply 1-A. A single infinite universe would stretch toward infinity, but it would only be High 3-A.

Also, this phrase is wrong.

this level of the Lifeweb treats higher dimensions as just images reflected from mirrors sitting in a timeless sea.

The lifeweb doesn't "treat" higher dimensions as something dimunitive. This is pulled solely from the notion that Buddy saw himself reflected in mirrors that led to higher dimensions. That doesn't imply that higher dimensions are "just images" to the Lifeweb.

Peak of the Lifeweb:

The only justification for that tier seems to be this comment:

Since the the Lifeweb stretches to encompass both space and time and then also goes beyond that by encompassing a realm where higher dimensions are just reflections in mirrors within a timeless sea, we can conclude that if the Lifeweb kept stretching all the way into infinity each stretch would encompass more levels that would seemingly trivialize the last

This claim is pure conjecture, nothing about the story supports this interpretation. It's based on an wholly opinion-based interpretation of Buddy's experience and extrapolates -- seemingly from nowhere -- that the word "infinity" implies "more levels that trivialize the last." But this comes from nowhere, nothing in the scans references some notion of "more levels that trivialize the last."

The World Soul

The justification for this tier is based entirely on it's connection to the Lifeweb, which itself is tiered poorly.


Worlds beyond the Third Kingdom

See above

The Implicate Order/Comic Book Limbo

Numerous errors and assumptions plague this section. For example, he claims the Writer lives in Limbo, but this is not supported by anything in the comic. We know that the Writer was in Limbo during the story line, but everything about his interaction with Buddy suggests that the Writer's manifestation in the story is a farce used to demonstrate himself to Buddy, not that the Writer is subordinate or lesser than Limbo itself.

Further, as with the last attempt at this, there is a complete and utter lack of explanation as to how any of this information supports the criteria given in High 1-A.

During the last thread, when asked to explain how the evidence supports the tiering he suggested, Xearsay refused and that ended the CRT. I am open minded to hearing an explanation, but this thread is missing them. It is not enough to simply describe a quality of a realm and say "therefore I think it's 1-A" without explaining why that quality would be 1-A, precisely, unless that quality is clearly and obviously connected to the tiering critieria, which is not the case for almost any of this.

 

[Firestorm808]

Yeah, I should have taken the time to read the actual issues to get better clarity on these concepts. A surface look isn't cutting it.

 

[Xearsay]

So, I went back and compared the original rejected CRT against the suggestions here, and honestly the changes are very minimal.

There's changes in structural placements, additional structures, and there's more evidence. Just because the tier isn't very different doesn't mean I made "minimal" changes.

Space Beyond All Knowing:
This doesn't explain how it's Low 1-C. It's a borderline incoherent sentence. Low 1-C is defined as "Characters who can affect, create and/or destroy the entirety of spaces whose size corresponds to one to two higher levels of infinity greater than a standard universal model (Low 2-C structures, in plain English.) In terms of "dimensional" scale, this can be equated to 5 and 6-dimensional real coordinate spaces" There's no explanation as to how this space is multiple infinities above a standard universal model. The scans for the "space beyond all knowing" only say that it isn't of time and space, that it is a universe "hidden behind ours" and in a scan about imagination (which doesn't seem to reference the 'space beyond all knowing') it is said that "worlds come to be without effort." None of this is even tangentially related to the idea of being infinitely above a universe and there's no explanation provided for why it would be. None of this is even tangentially related to the idea of being infinitely above a universe and there's no explanation provided for why it would be.

Actually this does explain how it's Low 1-C. Reality to fiction differences are often used as indications of greater levels of infinity. To the Animal Masters our native reality is their dream, and while Buddy was recreating this dream from within the space beyond all knowing, it was stated that he was "everywhere and nowhere in the space of his own mind" and yet him and the other Animal Masters still appeared in the Space Beyond All knowing like regular people. Also you don't need to be multiple levels of infinity above a standard universe to reach Low 1-C. You only need to be one level above.

This is a very blatant misrepresentation of the evidence. He is quoting Edgar Allan Poe, not claiming this. He says "I don't know, does it matter? What did Poe say? 'All that we see, or seem, is but a dream within a dream.'"

Whether he's quoting Allen Poe or making a claim, doesn't really change the main point.

The Lifeweb/The Red:
The suggestion that this is Low 1-A is also unexplained and wildly egregious. Low 1-A is defined as "Characters who can affect objects with a number of dimensions greater than the set of natural numbers, meaning in simple terms that the number of dimensions is aleph-1 (An uncountably infinite number, assumed to be the cardinality of the real numbers themselves), and therefore that such objects fully exceed High 1-B structures, which have only a countably infinite number of dimensions."

Where are uncountably infinite dimensions coming from? The evidence says that the Lifeweb spans both space and time, and that Buddy "recognizes himself in Mirrors reflecting higher dimensions." But there is no reference to how many there are, or the nature of these dimensions. It also says that the Lifeweb stretches toward infinity, but the word infinity doesn't imply 1-A. A single infinite universe would stretch toward infinity, but it would only be High 3-A.

You don't need a cosmology that specifies having uncountably infinite dimensions to reach low 1-A. You can also fully exceed a high 1-B structure and reach low 1-A. Also we do have information as to how the dimensions go as the higher dimensions of the hierarchy of universes go on until our universe is but a cell in the body of God.

The lifeweb doesn't "treat" higher dimensions as something dimunitive. This is pulled solely from the notion that Buddy saw himself reflected in mirrors that led to higher dimensions. That doesn't imply that higher dimensions are "just images" to the Lifeweb.

It doesn't say the mirrors "led to higher dimensions." The scan states, that Buddy would recognize himself in mirrors "reflecting higher dimensions." Meaning the higher higher dimensions are simply just reflections from mirrors.

Peak of the Lifeweb:

The only justification for that tier seems to be this comment:

This claim is pure conjecture, nothing about the story supports this interpretation. It's based on an wholly opinion-based interpretation of Buddy's experience and extrapolates -- seemingly from nowhere -- that the word "infinity" implies "more levels that trivialize the last." But this comes from nowhere, nothing in the scans references some notion of "more levels that trivialize the last."

This was actually a mistake on my part as I didn't change that justification to the real one. That justification was more of something that other people suggested. The real justification I put in my comment proposing tiers on the first page.

"The greater part of the web that is continuously stretching beyond the level of timeless sea and all previous levels, all the way into infinity. With more fundamental conceptual levels of existence that sit outside of time and space residing at the top."

The Implicate Order/Comic Book Limbo

Numerous errors and assumptions plague this section. For example, he claims the Writer lives in Limbo, but this is not supported by anything in the comic. We know that the Writer was in Limbo during the story line, but everything about his interaction with Buddy suggests that the Writer's manifestation in the story is a farce used to demonstrate himself to Buddy, not that the Writer is subordinate or lesser than Limbo itself. Further, as with the last attempt at this, there is a complete and utter lack of explanation as to how any of this information supports the criteria given in High 1-A.

How is not supported that the writer lives in comic book limbo, when he literally has a house there? Also he's an author avatar so of course he's a manifestation of Grant Morrison. That still doesn't change that this author avatar/manifestation lives in Limbo.

Also the justification for why it's High 1-A is literally on the first page in my proposal. Comic Book Limbo stands outside of the framework in which 1-A is defined because it treats all ideal worlds imaginable as just attempts to describe it's infinite possibility, with everything beneath it being defined as a story and comic book limbo being transcendent to the narrative. Seeing everything Buddy has known, that is, was, and shall be, as only a hallucination.

During the last thread, when asked to explain how the evidence supports the tiering he suggested, Xearsay refused and that ended the CRT. I am open minded to hearing an explanation, but this thread is missing them. It is not enough to simply describe a quality of a realm and say "therefore I think it's 1-A" without explaining why that quality would be 1-A, precisely, unless that quality is clearly and obviously connected to the tiering critieria, which is not the case for almost any of this.

I didn't refuse to do anything. The thread got locked before I could even explain anything. However I'm not gonna argue over what happened in the last thread as that would be a complete derail of this one and I don't really hold the same interpretation and views as I did in that last one anyway.

 

[Deagonx]

Actually this does explain how it's Low 1-C. Reality to fiction differences are often used as indications of greater levels of infinity. To the Animal Masters our native reality is their dream

A dream world is not an R>F difference. Likewise, I don't see any clear indication that the Animal Masters view our reality as a dream. I see a couple of vague scans that use the word dream, but none that clearly connect the two the way that you have.

it was stated that he was "everywhere and nowhere in the space of his own mind" and yet him and the other Animal Masters still appeared in the Space Beyond All knowing like regular people.

You describe the scan as this: While in the Space Beyond all knowing Buddy would describe the experience of dreaming our reality as being everywhere and nowhere in the space of his own mind.(Animal Man #50)

But Buddy doesn't mention "dreaming our reality."

Whether he's quoting Allen Poe or making a claim, doesn't really change the main point.

Yes it does. An Edgar Allan Poe quote used in that fashion is not information about the cosmology.

You don't need a cosmology that specifies having uncountably infinite dimensions to reach low 1-A. You can also fully exceed a high 1-B structure and reach low 1-A. Also we do have information as to how the dimensions go as the higher dimensions of the hierarchy of universes go on until our universe is but a cell in the body of God.

This does not address the actual question. In what way does it "fully exceed" a 1-B structure? And your scan about "a cell in the body of god" doesn't mention higher dimensions. Where are you getting that?

It doesn't say the mirrors "led to higher dimensions." The scan states, that Buddy would recognize himself in mirrors "reflecting higher dimensions." Meaning the higher higher dimensions are simply just reflections from mirrors.

It does mean that. If someone sees an apple reflected in a mirror, that doesn't mean the apple is "simply a reflection." It means the mirror is positioned in a way that it reflects the image of the apple. This is a nonsense interpretation.

"The greater part of the web that is continuously stretching beyond the level of timeless sea and all previous levels, all the way into infinity. With more fundamental conceptual levels of existence that sit outside of time and space residing at the top."

How is this supported by your scans?

How is not supported that the writer lives in comic book limbo, when he literally has a house there?

I explained exactly why it isn't supported. The house doesn't change that.

l. Comic Book Limbo stands outside of the framework in which 1-A is defined because it treats all ideal worlds imaginable as just attempts to describe it's infinite possibility

This doesn't explain how it's 1-A. It's word soup with no clear literal meaning that can be taken from it. Likewise, this entire scan is theorizing through the lens of various culture's myths. It is clear that James is not sure what is true or not, so using this specific line and taking it as gospel is erroneous.

with everything beneath it being defined as a story and comic book limbo being transcendent to the narrative

There is no evidence that Limbo is "transcendent" to the multiple, it simply sits outside of it and has fourth-wall awareness. Nothing suggests that Limbo is "real" to a fictional multiverse. Characters in Limbo are simply aware that they are stories.

I didn't refuse to do anything. The thread got locked before I could even explain anything

Yes, you did. It was locked because you refused to explain.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you very much for helping out, Deagonx. The suggested tiering seems to have been rejected then, both here and in a previous thread.

I suppose that we might have to forbid Xearsay from ever trying to sneak in this revision yet again in any other discussion threads, if he just repeats the same rejected arguments over and over and hopes that nobody knowledgeable enough to debunk them will be available to do so the next time.

What statistics do you think that we should apply to Animal Man, Deagonx, and would you be willing to write some kind of footnote explanation on his profile page, that debunks the higher interpretations of his statistics, in conjunction?

 

[Deagonx]

if he just repeats the same rejected arguments over and over and hopes that nobody knowledgeable enough to debunk them will be available to do so the next time.

That's the M.O. He really wants DC to be as high as possible. Any CRT he's done, if you look over it, is always about something being high 1-A.

And a lot of the information is vague and confusing, and presented in a way that is impossible to render into coherent English. Such as "Furthermore, the Implicate Order trivializes all ideal worlds imaginable to the point where they’re just attempts at trying to describe the Implicate Orders infinite possibility."

What statistics do you think that we should apply to Animal Man, Deagonx, and would you be willing to write some kind of footnote explanation on his profile page, that debunks the higher interpretations of his statistics, in conjunction?

I think 2-A at his peak might be reasonable.

 

[Xearsay]

A dream world is not an R>F difference. Likewise, I don't see any clear indication that the Animal Masters view our reality as a dream. I see a couple of vague scans that use the word dream, but none that clearly connect the two the way that you have.


You describe the scan as this: While in the Space Beyond all knowing Buddy would describe the experience of dreaming our reality as being everywhere and nowhere in the space of his own mind.(Animal Man #50)

But Buddy doesn't mention "dreaming our reality."

It's on the first page in my response to Efficient.

After Buddy had recreated reality, the narration would state "One world, one of thousands, where life is beginning, spontaneously dreamed by the masters of the real..."

Yes it does. An Edgar Allan Poe quote used in that fashion is not information about the cosmology.

It is information about the cosmology as it's being said in response to a conversation Buddy and James Highwater had about The Implicate Order, reality, and God.

It does mean that. If someone sees an apple reflected in a mirror, that doesn't mean the apple is "simply a reflection." It means the mirror is positioned in a way that it reflects the image of the apple. This is a nonsense interpretation.

After looking at the scan again, I actually agree with what you're saying.

This does not address the actual question. In what way does it "fully exceed" a 1-B structure? And your scan about "a cell in the body of god" doesn't mention higher dimensions. Where are you getting that?

The system of universes within the hierarchy can be considered higher dimensions. However I now disagree with this being low 1-A. It should be only a level above the hierarchy of universes.

How is this supported by your scans?

I mean the scans straight up state the Lifeweb is "stretching to infinity." There is other scans I posted that also state the imaginal worlds sit at the top of the lifeweb, are "more basic realities" and are considered to be "outside of time and space."

I explained exactly why it isn't supported. The house doesn't change that.

No you didn't. Your only argument was that the Writers a manifestation of Grant Morrison aka an author avatar. None of which translates to him being beyond Comic Book Limbo. You also can't really ignore the house thing because having a house in a location and being shown to what can only be described as "living" inside that house is direct proof that the Writer lives there.

This doesn't explain how it's 1-A. It's word soup with no clear literal meaning that can be taken from it. Likewise, this entire scan is theorizing through the lens of various culture's myths. It is clear that James is not sure what is true or not, so using this specific line and taking it as gospel is erroneous.

How is it meaningless? Just calling it meaningless isn't an argument. Also the reasons he's giving various different lenses to view the Implicate Order is because he starts off by saying that it's "difficult to express in simple terms." However he still does give a clear but very simple definition. And there's really no proof that he has no clue what he's talking about.

There is no evidence that Limbo is "transcendent" to the multiple, it simply sits outside of it and has fourth-wall awareness. Nothing suggests that Limbo is "real" to a fictional multiverse. Characters in Limbo are simply aware that they are stories.

Yes it does. There's a scan I posted that openly talks about how they're just stories to entertain.

Yes, you did. It was locked because you refused to explain.

Really? Then post a scan of me admitting that I wasn't going to explain the tiers?

 

[Xearsay]

Thank you very much for helping out, Deagonx. The suggested tiering seems to have been rejected then, both here and in a previous thread.

I suppose that we might have to forbid Xearsay from ever trying to sneak in this revision yet again in any other discussion threads, if he just repeats the same rejected arguments over and over and hopes that nobody knowledgeable enough to debunk them will be available to do so the next time.

What statistics do you think that we should apply to Animal Man, Deagonx, and would you be willing to write some kind of footnote explanation on his profile page, that debunks the higher interpretations of his statistics, in conjunction?

Funny how you talked about not wanting to rush the thread and then consider the whole thread over after one reply from Deagonx. I digress Deagonx has only proven one part of what I presented to be in accurate. That doesn’t mean we just reject the whole thing.

 

[Deagonx]

After Buddy had recreated reality, the narration would state "One world, one of thousands, where life is beginning, spontaneously dreamed by the masters of the real..."

Okay, but I reiterate, dreams are not an R>F difference.

It is information about the cosmology as it's being said in response to a conversation Buddy and James Highwater had about The Implicate Order, reality, and God.

No, it isn't. It's a quote from a dead poet being applied aggressively literally.

The system of universes within the hierarchy can be considered higher dimensions.

Why?

I mean the scans straight up state the Lifeweb is "stretching to infinity."

And why is this being interpreted as higher aleph infinities than any of the lower infinities that we already know exist?

None of which translates to him being beyond Comic Book Limbo

His appearance in that issue goes to great lengths to explain that he doesn't actually exist in the comic at all. Such as his fake-out death.

How is it meaningless?

It doesn't correlate to any literal, practical, or real-world information that can be interpreted in the context of the tiering system.

And there's really no proof that he has no clue what he's talking about.

He says numerous times he isn't sure.

Yes it does. There's a scan I posted that openly talks about how they're just stories to entertain.

This is fourth wall awareness, not R>F

Really? Then post a scan of me admitting that I wasn't going to explain the tiers?

When I asked you to explain, you insisted on hashing out whether or not the evidence was sufficient before you explained how/why the evidence was 1-A.

 

[Antvasima]

That's the M.O. He really wants DC to be as high as possible. Any CRT he's done, if you look over it, is always about something being high 1-A.

And a lot of the information is vague and confusing, and presented in a way that is impossible to render into coherent English. Such as "Furthermore, the Implicate Order trivializes all ideal worlds imaginable to the point where they’re just attempts at trying to describe the Implicate Orders infinite possibility."

I think 2-A at his peak might be reasonable.

Okay. Please elaborate regarding your reasoning.

 

[Antvasima]

Funny how you talked about not wanting to rush the thread and then consider the whole thread over after one reply from Deagonx. I digress Deagonx has only proven one part of what I presented to be in accurate. That doesn’t mean we just reject the whole thing.

Well, I trust his knowledge and judgement regarding this verse, and his arguments have made good sense to me so far, but if he did not address quite everything, you can continue to argue for a while if you wish.

 

[Deagonx]

Okay. Please elaborate regarding your reasoning.

In his amped state, Animal Man becomes the Body of God and defeats the Spider Queen who represents Imagination. In this context, Imagination functions as part of the cosmological structure which creates universes and other worlds. However, upon review I do not see anything that suggests this represents truly infinite universes, so I would actually say 2-B seems fair. His best literal feat is creating a universe itself, so he ought to be High 3-A at least.

This talk of 1-A is absurd, however.

 

[Xearsay]

Well, I trust his knowledge and judgement regarding this verse, and his arguments have made good sense to me so far, but if he did not address quite everything, you can continue to argue for a while if you wish.

Thank you. I will reply to this when I get the time as I’m currently busy helping my family with some stuff.

 

[Antvasima]

In his amped state, Animal Man becomes the Body of God and defeats the Spider Queen who represents Imagination. In this context, Imagination functions as part of the cosmological structure which creates universes and other worlds. However, upon review I do not see anything that suggests this represents truly infinite universes, so I would actually say 2-B seems fair. His best literal feat is creating a universe itself, so he ought to be High 3-A at least.

This talk of 1-A is absurd, however.

Thank you for the evaluation. That seems to make sense.

@Firestorm808

What do you and other staff, and other members that I called for, think about this?

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you. I will reply to this when I get the time as I’m currently busy helping my family with some stuff.

Okay. No problem.

 

[Xearsay]

Okay, but I reiterate, dreams are not an R>F difference.

Yes they are. On this site we treat them as a type of R>F difference. Hence why so many other verses have them.

No, it isn't. It's a quote from a dead poet being applied aggressively literally.

It is being said in aftermath of a conversation Buddy and James Highwater had about the cosmology. Buddy would state “And the other stuff… Reality, God… Did we really see God? How much of it was just a hallucination?”

Why?

This doesn’t really matter anymore. As I’ve already disagreed with the timeless sea being transcendent.

And why is this being interpreted as higher aleph infinities than any of the lower infinities that we already know exist

The main reason is because the Lifeweb already spans time and space. And if this structure which spans time and space is stretching to infinity, then it would mean that this infinity it’s stretching to would be an even greater infinity.

His appearance in that issue goes to great lengths to explain that he doesn't actually exist in the comic at all. Such as his fake-out death.

Are you actually trying to suggest that a fictional character doesn’t exist in the comic that we read? That’s utterly ridiculous and is borderline trolling.

Also that fake out death just means he can resurrect himself.

It doesn't correlate to any literal, practical, or real-world information that can be interpreted in the context of the tiering system.

Yes it does. As the information proves that Limbo scales beyond story which defines the existence of the lower reality.

He says numerous times he isn't sure.

Show me a scan where James Highwater says he isn’t sure.

This is fourth wall awareness, not R>F

No, saying other characters who exist in a lower reality are just a story to be read for entertainment is R>F. And I don’t think I should even have to explain why that’s R>F.

When I asked you to explain, you insisted on hashing out whether or not the evidence was sufficient before you explained how/why the evidence was 1-A.

I insisted on doing this, not because I didn’t want to explain how it’s 1-A but because it wouldn’t make sense for me to explain why it’s 1-A if you didn’t even think the evidence I was using was sufficient first.

 

[Deagonx]

Yes they are. On this site we treat them as a type of R>F difference.

Source?

It is being said in aftermath of a conversation Buddy and James Highwater had about the cosmology. Buddy would state “And the other stuff… Reality, God… Did we really see God? How much of it was just a hallucination?”

1. That doesn't mean that every thing they said, no matter what it is, should be taken as gospel about the cosmology. Especially not something a poet said decades ago

2. You are admitting with that very quote that Buddy is not sure about the nature of his experience, hence why phrases like this are not definite information.

And if this structure which spans time and space is stretching to infinity, then it would mean that this infinity it’s stretching to would be an even greater infinity.

You aren't explaining why that's the case. Why wouldn't we assume time and space itself is the infinity it's stretching to? You are making an assumption without evidence.

Are you actually trying to suggest that a fictional character doesn’t exist in the comic that we read? That’s utterly ridiculous and is borderline trolling.

Your incredulity is not an argument. The comic goes to great lengths to demonstrate that the Writer character isn't "real" in the comic and his existence there doesn't follow the same rules.

As the information proves that Limbo scales beyond story which defines the existence of the lower reality.

How does it prove that Limbo "scales beyond it" in a way that is relevant to tiering?

Show me a scan where James Highwater says he isn’t sure.

He literally says "I think what you meant was..." which is a guess interpretation of what Buddy said. He then rotates through several different cultures and myths as an attempt to relate what Buddy said to real-world legends he is aware of. Are we meant to take all of those myths as absolute truth because Highwater interpreted them as being what Buddy meant?

No, saying other characters who exist in a lower reality are just a story to be read for entertainment is R>F

Limbo is not the audience of this fictional story for entertainment. Limbo isn't "real" to the "fictional" multiverse. Limbo is also fictional, but only beings in Limbo are aware of their fictionality. It clearly is not an R>F difference whatsoever.

I insisted on doing this, not because I didn’t want to explain how it’s 1-A but because it wouldn’t make sense for me to explain why it’s 1-A if you didn’t even think the evidence I was using was sufficient first.

To create a CRT you have to explain why you are promoting a certain tier. If you refuse to do that, there is no CRT.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out, Deagonx.

 

[Udlmaster]

Okay, but I reiterate, dreams are not an R>F difference.

They are and always have been.

For example, for the longest time (before the CM revision) Azathoth was considered Reality-Fiction difference to the rest of the verse. This has now changed with the Yog-Sothoth stuff, but the precedent remains.

Similarly many verses possess "Dreaming Gods", reality being all but a dream and are given Higher dimensional ratings because of it.

 

[Armorchompy]

I don't have any opinions on the topic itself however

That's the M.O. He really wants DC to be as high as possible. Any CRT he's done, if you look over it, is always about something being high 1-A.

I suppose that we might have to forbid Xearsay from ever trying to sneak in this revision yet again in any other discussion threads, if he just repeats the same rejected arguments over and over and hopes that nobody knowledgeable enough to debunk them will be available to do so the next time.

These are very heavy accusations of dishonesty aimed at someone who, from what I can see, seems to be acting in a perfectly polite legitimate manner, especially when the debate is not even over. Please wait for a much more uniform consensus before closing the thread, let alone issuing a topic ban, that is a very serious thing to do.

 

[Udlmaster]

I suppose that we might have to forbid Xearsay from ever trying to sneak in this revision yet again in any other discussion threads, if he just repeats the same rejected arguments over and over and hopes that nobody knowledgeable enough to debunk them will be available to do so the next time.

Yeah, I do not think it is appropriate to do that, especially on Word alone, no matter to whom those words came from.

It isn't appropriate either to declare the intentions of someone as a means to shut down a discussion either, especially as a characterisation.

It seems outright that Xearsay has much more to say, and responding to people in the manor they are doing isn't re-iterating 'rejected arguments', these sentiments were used against WoD back in the day before a certain Admin joined and the verse is where it is today, back then, people said such things and even went as far to say WoD would never even crack 1-A, so I think it is best that this discussion isn't shut down, and left to be discussed.

 

[Deagonx]

Similarly many verses possess "Dreaming Gods", reality being all but a dream

Dreaming reality and "reality only being a dream" is not the same thing. The Animal Masters are not above the worlds they create in that manner.

Please wait for a much more uniform consensus before closing the thread, let alone issuing a topic ban.

We are referring to a history of behavior that is outside the scope of this thread.

 

[Udlmaster]

We are referring to a history of behavior that is outside the scope of this thread.

Then that is outside of the scope of this discussion and should not be brought up here.

Dreaming reality and "reality only being a dream" is not the same thing. The Animal Masters are not above the worlds they create in that manner.

These seem to be synonymous, in both cases, the Dreamer considers reality to be nothing more than their imagination.

In both cases, there must be a body which exists outside of reality to dream it all.

 

[Armorchompy]

We are referring to a history of behavior that is outside the scope of this thread.

And I haven't seen enough evidence to believe you, I'm afraid. OP's threads seem to be reasonably well-constructed and don't all treat the same topics though they are similar, them not being accepted is absolutely not grounds for a thread ban.

 

[Deagonx]

Then that is outside of the scope of this discussion

That really doesn't make a lot of sense if this thread is a continuation of that behavior.

in both cases, the Dreamer considers reality to be nothing more than their imagination.

What they consider reality isn't relevant unless they can demonstrate power over it, but they can't.

And I haven't seen enough evidence to believe you, I'm afraid

Well of course not. You weren't in those threads

 

[Swerzye29038]

These are very heavy accusations of dishonesty aimed at someone who, from what I can see, seems to be acting in a perfectly polite legitimate manner, especially when the debate is not even over.

No one is accusing Xearsay of acting in a non polite manner. Ant and Deagon are saying that he has made threads similar in nature in the past, with previously rejected information

 

[Xearsay]

Source?

Just literally look at almost every tier 1 cosmology on this site dude. Cthulhu Mythos, The Unwritten, Demon King Damaoi, etc. if you have a problem with dreams being R>F you should make a control thread about it before trying to impose a standard that hasn’t even been accepted.

1. That doesn't mean that every thing they said, no matter what it is, should be taken as gospel about the cosmology. Especially not something a poet said decades ago

2. You are admitting with that very quote that Buddy is not sure about the nature of his experience, hence why phrases like this are not definite information.

1. The problem is with your statement is that we have a very good reason to take what James Highwater is saying as legit. James Highwater is basically a cosmological physicist and is potentially an avatar of The Writer.

2. Buddy wasn’t sure about his experience however we know it was real because The Writer was controlling and narrating his entire experience throughout the issue. Plus the whole point of his experience in Arizona was to showcase to Buddy the nature of reality and his Animal powers.

You aren't explaining why that's the case. Why wouldn't we assume time and space itself is the infinity it's stretching to? You are making an assumption without evidence.

Well for starters it’s never said the infinity the structure of the Lifeweb is stretching to is time and space. And second, the Lifeweb already contain structures at its peak that exist outside of time and space.

Your incredulity is not an argument. The comic goes to great lengths to demonstrate that the Writer character isn't "real" in the comic and his existence there doesn't follow the same rules.

Literally no where does the comic mention that this Writer/author avatar meant to represent Grant Morrison isn’t real in the comic. The whole story wouldn’t even make sense if he wasn’t real since he was literally causing all kinds of changes to the lowereality throughout the first 26 issues of Animal Man.

How does it prove that Limbo "scales beyond it" in a way that is relevant to tiering?

Simply put, if we can define the tiers of what Limbo scales beyond, we can next define Limbos tier.

He literally says "I think what you meant was..." which is a guess interpretation of what Buddy said. He then rotates through several different cultures and myths as an attempt to relate what Buddy said to real-world legends he is aware of. Are we meant to take all of those myths as absolute truth because Highwater interpreted them as being what Buddy meant?

Ok? And? That doesn’t prove the interpretation of the Implicate Order he gave is questionable. That just means whether his interpretation aligns with Buddy’s experience is questionable. And those several cultural myths he rotated through, were just different ways previous cultures represented the Implicate Order.

Limbo is not the audience of this fictional story for entertainment. Limbo isn't "real" to the "fictional" multiverse. Limbo is also fictional, but only beings in Limbo are aware of their fictionality. It clearly is not an R>F difference whatsoever.

You just completely ignored the scan I posted and then just repeated your own stance. The scan I posted has nothing to do with 4th wall awareness. This is about beings of a higher reality viewing and treating beings of a lower reality as fiction.

To create a CRT you have to explain why you are promoting a certain tier. If you refuse to do that, there is no CRT.

You also have to make sure your evidence is sufficient first before using it justify certain tiers. Hence why I wanted to explain why my evidence was sufficient before explaining the tiers. So you saying I was refusing to explain the tiers in the last thread is still a complete lie.

 

[Xearsay]

No one is accusing Xearsay of acting in a non polite manner. Ant and Deagon are saying that he has made threads similar in nature in the past, with previously rejected information

I didn’t make those other threads. Other people made those threads and I just simply participated in them. This is literally my first created Animal Man thread.

Also the argument for me getting a topic ban was literally Deagonx claiming that I’m doing everything in my power to just highball or wank DC. Which is completely false as I’ve been against multiple upgrades to multiple high tier characters like the Presence, CAS, and more. Which doesn’t make sense if I’m trying to “wank DC” as you, Deagonx, and Ant seem to think.

 

[Deagonx]

Just literally look at almost every tier 1 cosmology on this site dude. Cthulhu Mythos, The Unwritten, Demon King Damaoi, etc.

There is a difference between something's existence literally only being a part of your dream and having your dreams create things that are real to you. Where have the Animal Masters demonstrated that level of transcendence? Buddy did not see the universe he created as a "dream."

1. The problem is with your statement is that we have a very good reason to take what James Highwater is saying as legit. James Highwater is basically a cosmological physicist and is potentially an avatar of The Writer.

Except James did not state it, he quoted an author. He never said what Poe said was literally true about the cosmology, and James is just a human being with theories. As I pointed out, he's expressed uncertainty several times. Also the idea that he's an avatar of the Writer is laughable.

Buddy wasn’t sure about his experience however we know it was real because The Writer was controlling and narrating his entire experience throughout the issue.

If Buddy isn't sure about how to interpret his experience, then his musings (or his friends musings) about what the experience meant are not concrete information that should be used to tier by themselves without other evidence.

Well for starters it’s never said the infinity the structure of the Lifeweb is stretching to is time and space.

It's never said what it is at all. So why are we making assumptions to tier it?

Literally no where does the comic mention that this Writer/author avatar meant to represent Grant Morrison isn’t real in the comic.

Yes, it does. The Writer literally explains to Buddy that they are inside of a comic book. The Writer doesn't consider Limbo "real" either, and doesn't actually exist there. This is the fundamental concept crucial to his appearance.

Simply put, if we can define the tiers of what Limbo scales beyond, we can next define Limbos tier.

This is not a response to my question.

Ok? And? That doesn’t prove the interpretation of the Implicate Order he gave is questionable.

Yes, it does. It proves he is not certain about it. We would need actual proof, not simply one person's theory. This evidence is not strong enough for a CRT.

You just completely ignored the scan I posted and then just repeated your own stance. The scan I posted has nothing to do with 4th wall awareness. This is about beings of a higher reality viewing and treating beings of a lower reality as fiction.

Yes, and the "higher reality" is limbo. We know characters from Limbo are not R>F to the multiverse, they simply have 4th wall awareness. Whether or not your scan specifically addresses this doesn't mean it isn't true. Your single scan is not the totality of information we have about Limbo.

You also have to make sure your evidence is sufficient first before using it justify certain tiers. Hence why I wanted to explain why my evidence was sufficient before explaining the tiers. So you saying I was refusing to explain the tiers in the last thread is still a complete lie.

No, you don't have to do that "first." You do both at the same time. Explain how your evidence justifies a tier while also arguing that it is sufficient. I repeat the truth, you refused to explain how your evidence supported your suggested tiers. Thats why the thread was closed.

This is literally my first Animal Man thread.

No, it isn't. You may not have started the other thread, but you were the one who suggested the changes. The OP simply asked why he was at "wall level" and you came in with suggestions almost identical to these ones.

Which doesn’t make sense if I’m trying to “wank DC” as you, Deagonx, and Ant seem to think.

Why is that in quotes when you're the only person who said it, and none of us did?

But yes, you do have a known history of aggressively overtiering your favorite DC characters.

 

[Armorchompy]

But yes, you do have a known history of aggressively overtiering your favorite DC characters.

This is battleboarding dude, everyone has their own opinions on characters, thinking DC characters are higher tiered than we rate them as ain't a crime and Xearsay's threads are well constructed enough, so unless you think we should topic ban everyone who tries to change a verse's tiering and fails to do so, this isn't gonna bring you anywhere.

Why is that in quotes when you're the only person who said it, and none of us did?

That's the M.O. He really wants DC to be as high as possible. Any CRT he's done, if you look over it, is always about something being high 1-A.

 

[Antvasima]

I don't have any opinions on the topic itself however


These are very heavy accusations of dishonesty aimed at someone who, from what I can see, seems to be acting in a perfectly polite legitimate manner, especially when the debate is not even over. Please wait for a much more uniform consensus before closing the thread, let alone issuing a topic ban, that is a very serious thing to do.

Yeah, I do not think it is appropriate to do that, especially on Word alone, no matter to whom those words came from.

It isn't appropriate either to declare the intentions of someone as a means to shut down a discussion either, especially as a characterisation.

It seems outright that Xearsay has much more to say, and responding to people in the manor they are doing isn't re-iterating 'rejected arguments', these sentiments were used against WoD back in the day before a certain Admin joined and the verse is where it is today, back then, people said such things and even went as far to say WoD would never even crack 1-A, so I think it is best that this discussion isn't shut down, and left to be discussed.

Okay. However, I also recall that Xearsay has been relentlessly pushing for this a few times previously and that he was disproven and rejected back then.

 

[Antvasima]

No one is accusing Xearsay of acting in a non polite manner. Ant and Deagon are saying that he has made threads similar in nature in the past, with previously rejected information

That is correct, yes.

 

[Antvasima]

This is battleboarding dude, everyone has their own opinions on characters, thinking DC characters are higher tiered than we rate them as ain't a crime and Xearsay's threads are well constructed enough, so unless you think we should topic ban everyone who tries to change a verse's tiering and fails to do so, this isn't gonna bring you anywhere.

I also recall that Xearsay has a history of relentlessly attempting to exaggerate tiers of characters that he likes as much as possible though.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, I would greatly appreciate input from @Sandman31 , @LuciferDC099 , @Elizio33 , and @Eficiente here.

 

[Udlmaster]

That really doesn't make a lot of sense if this thread is a continuation of that behavior.

This thread isn't. That's not what this thread is for, that's what the Report threads are for, where other people can audit the claim.

This is for the Animal Revision, and so it is outside of the scope.

Okay. However, I also recall that Xearsay has been relentlessly pushing for this a few times previously and that he was disproven and rejected back then.

I don't think it's appropriate to judge his arguments in this thread to those threads. After all, we are here now, and it's clear he has a significant amount of evidence to support his claims, to shut down the entire thread and topic ban is an extreme reserved for chaos, not the leisurely debating shown in this thread.

There's been no rules broken, he hasn't become rude or insulting, and it isn't a crime to present counter arguments to someone trying to argue against him.

 

[Antvasima]

I personally do think that it is perfectly fair to judge Xearsay's current argumentation as a continuation of when he was thoroughly disproven by Sandman31 previously regarding the same subject, if I remember correctly.

If he continues to bring up the same topic and arguments over and over after they have been thoroughly discussed and rejected, we do tend to eventually use discussion rules or topic bans against them. There is nothing particularly extreme about that, it is just a basic precaution against that severely biased members continue to relentlessly grind and grind year in and year out to try their luck again over and over until more knowledgeable members are not present anymore to restate the reasons why the repeated arguments are incorrect, and as such turn our pages for the verse in question far more misleading and unreliable.

However, again, I am fine with allowing this discussion to continue for a while longer, but would much prefer some input from the members that I sent notifications to above.

Regardless, I am not going to change my mind about what I said above in this post, given my extensive previous experiences with Xearsay's general biased or possibly deliberately misleading approach to this verse, and I am too busy IRL and with other community tasks to argue with you further about the issue, so let's stop with the derailment please.

 

[Udlmaster]

If he continues to bring up the same topic and arguments over and over after they have been thoroughly discussed and rejected, we do tend to eventually use discussion rules or topic bans against them. There is nothing particularly extreme about that, it is just a basic precaution against that severely biased members continue to relentlessly grind and grind year in and year out to try their luck again over and over until more knowledgeable members are not present anymore to restate the reasons why the repeated arguments are incorrect, and as such turn our pages for the verse in question far more misleading and unreliable

That is not how that is coming across.

The word of a single person alone to ban a person from a topic is very extreme, and he quite clearly is not presenting the same arguments, the Original post has a vast array of new information.

It would therefore be an unfair judgement to ban them for continuing a topic when they have much more new information to provide to be discussed.

Regardless of it the broad-general topic is the same, the information, the characteristics of the argument, are now different based on the new information.

If nothing else, such a judgement should be made by Consensus on the Report thread, as this discussion is outside of the scope of the intended topic.

 

[Confluctor]

Nobody is getting topic banned, hell no. OP hasn't made this stuff repeatedly, and most of his stuff got shot down because of cosmology split promise. In addition to, last time his Animal Man thread got closed before he could even reply, and this time, he is making better arguments than before and brought more/different scans from what I can remember. OP has generally made good threads and has acted in a good manner - at least from what I can remember from being present in a number of their threads. Seems like the argument to topic ban him and to shoot down his CRT comes from a very bad faith - and some might even call it "bias".

Anyway, deal with the evidence brought and that's it. No one should be getting threatened with a topic ban or have their threads closed because arguments were """debunked""" - which they weren't in its entirety.

From this point onwards, I would rather not see either side trying to derail the thread with nonsense like this. Look at the evidence, evaluate it, and that's it.

 

[Deagonx]

In addition to, last time his Animal Man thread got closed before he could even reply

This is because he openly refused to provide his tiering justification until we argued to his satisfaction about the sufficiency of his evidence.

No one should be getting threatened with a topic ban or have their threads closed because arguments were """debunked""" - which they weren't in its entirety.

That's not what's happening here. If I were to pinpoint the most problematic behavior, it would be that Xear routinely lies about what scans say during his arguments and hopes no one notices. People see a post like the OP, it's formatted well and has a lot of links, and most people cba to read through each scan, which is where a lot of the lies seep in, ranging from subtle to very egregious.

Any time I respond to a xearsay thread, the main focus is just reading the scans and pointing out the numerous instances where his description of the scans is an alteration of what the scans say. For example, in this very thread:

James Highwater would claim all that we see or seem is but a dream within a dream.(Animal Man #19)

This is not remotely what happens in the scan. Highwater references a quotation from a dead poet, he doesn't make this assertion himself.

In the last thread, he took a scan which said the Space Beyond All Knowing was "outside of time and space" and changed it to "transcends time and space."

While in the Space Beyond all knowing Buddy would describe the experience of dreaming our reality as being everywhere and nowhere in the space of his own mind.(Animal Man #50)

There's nothing in this scan, or this entire leg of the story, which refers to Buddy "dreaming our reality." It's completely editorialized. I could go on basically forever, but I'll limit this to scope of Animal Man. I don't have a strong opinion on whether or not he should be topic banned, but to suggest this came out of nowhere is wrong.