A little Upgrade(Or A Huge One) For Pokémon God Tiers

[Arceus0x]

Update seems good

 

[Sniper670]

Alright. Thanks for your input

 

[Fixxed]

Heart
"When there was nothing else in the world, the Heart was in the middle of a swell of chaos. In this heart, everything was one, time, space, every being were a single existence. After the Heart gained awareness, the world was shaped. It's a single heart that exists beyond time and space and Arceus is its direct manifestation. After creation every being has its own heart, but they are still the same being when looking at the highest level."

Ahh so arceus is "existance", now i disagree for giving him NEP 2

The meaning of Non-duality :

Non-duality is the recognition that underlying the multiplicity and diversity of experience there is a single, infinite and indivisible reality, whose nature is pure consciousness, from which all objects and selves derive their apparently independent existence

Which fits exactly with Arceus Nature as described earlier.

This fits with Transduality Type 3" NonDuality". TD 2 for characters who're not tier 1A

Taiji. So basically the distinction between self and other does not exist. Everyone comes from him, and everyone is him. But he is NonDual by nature.

So I propose the changes here

Transduality Type 2(Due to his True Nature of NonDuality )

Ahh this not gonna work. You must have the blantanly statement that says it "nonduality/onesess" or very corresponding to it

And it not says beyond all duality system, so no

 

[Sniper670]

Ahh so arceus is "existance", now i disagree for giving him NEP 2

No. The multiverse didn't exist, because of his state of one. "Exist" and "Nonexistence" didn't exist. It's a formless void devoid of seperation . Wuji in Chinese Mythology. Arceus is straight up Taiji. In that he exist in a state of indifference or nonSeperation

Ahh this not gonna work. You must have the blantanly statement that says it "nonduality/onesess" or very corresponding to it

That's false. NonDuality or being in state indistinct between subject and other is Type 2. Check Cognitive Physiology from SMT or any description of Non-duality. NonDuality means "Not two". That's all you need

And it not says beyond all duality system, so no

Again, being in a state where the distinction between self and other doesn't exist is NonDuality. That's straight up type two.
Transduality is a bit different in that you'll need to be mentioned the kind of Duality in your reality you're outside of. Which is why in Anos case, we didn't give him immunity to anything and everything.

Non Duality doesn't require that.

 

[Antvasima]

Got unsubbed from this thread for some reason

Try using this page every now and then to properly keep track please:

https://vsbattles.com/watched/threads

 

[Fixxed]

No. The multiverse didn't exist, because of his state of one. "Exist" and "Nonexistence" didn't exist. It's a formless void devoid of seperation . Wuji in Chinese Mythology. Arceus is straight up Taiji. In that he exist in a state of indifference or nonSeperation

That's false. NonDuality or being in state indistinct between subject and other is Type 2. Check Cognitive Physiology from SMT or any description of Non-duality. NonDuality means "Not two". That's all you need

Bro like i says you must have blantanly statement about it. "One" is not mean not exist

I says it "onesess" because you give taiji for example. Taiji is onesess before duality, yes, but it doesn't mean every that state as one before creation is same meaning as taiji. You must blantanly statement that the onesess is prior to duality

And wuji is prior to taiji
And in chinese philosophy there is no duality of existance and nonexistance, because duality is existance and nonexistance is the root or primordial of all

Again, being in a state where the distinction between self and other doesn't exist is NonDuality. That's straight up type two.
Transduality is a bit different in that you'll need to be mentioned the kind of Duality in your reality you're outside of. Which is why in Anos case, we didn't give him immunity to anything and everything.

Non Duality doesn't require that.

Not every onesses is nonduality, they have to proof that they's onesses is include the duality

Like, you can transcend/unbound every concept, but it doesn't make you have TD 2. Why?? Because that not mention duality, even though by logic it must have TD 2 because it will include concept of fire-water, dark-light, etc

 

[Sniper670]

Bro like i says you must have blantanly statement about it. "One" is not mean not exist

Giratina embodies the concept Nonexistence, he didn't exist at the time, Dialga and Palkia embody the concept of time and space. They didn't exist. Why? Because within Arceus that distinction wasn't there. It mixed, formless, One
It was later that he created them

Let me repeat

are portrayed as existing within a state of single, indivisible wholeness bereft of any separation

Seperation in general does not exist for such characters

I says it "onesess" because you give taiji for example. Taiji is onesess before duality, yes, but it doesn't mean every that state as one before creation is same meaning as taiji. You must blantanly statement that the onesess is prior to duality

And that's false. Reason why Taiji get type 3 is because of the lack of seperation of any kind.

Which was an example under 3

And wuji is prior to taiji
And in chinese philosophy there is no duality of existance and nonexistance, because duality is existance and nonexistance is the root or primordial of all

Wuji is a State of formlessness. It's an emptiness without distinctions.

It's not conventional nothingess. It's idealistic. Type 2

Not every onesses is nonduality, they have to proof that they's onesses is include the duality

OneNess includes Nondistinction. There's no "you".

Like, you can transcend/unbound every concept, but it doesn't make you have TD 2. Why?? Because that not mention duality, even though by logic it must have TD 2 because it will include concept of fire-water, dark-light, etc

Being in a state where "you" or "2" or any distinctions doesn't exist is type 2. Where you're one indivisible being without any kind of seperation is 2


Cognitive physiology is an example.

Check many of the Transduality characters . Or at the very least, look up the meaning of NonDuality

 

[Greatsage13th]

Giratina embodies the concept Nonexistence, he didn't exist at the time.

that's a good thing to know but why don't you back it up with a source?

 

[Sniper670]

How about WOG

And there is more. The world was created by the intersection of the 3

 

[Greatsage13th]

How about WOG

And there is more. The world was created by the intersection of the 3

none directly hints at girantina being the embodiment of nothingness.

 

[Antvasima]

I've made some changes which will give Arceus full access to Acausality type 5, Transduality Type 2 and Nonexistence Physiology Nature Type 2, Aspect Type 1,2,3 and 5

Check that and update your opinion while we wait for Gyro.

@GyroNutz

 

[Sniper670]

none directly hints at girantina being the embodiment of nothingness.

Ok. Gyro and Elizha already agree, so I'll just ignore that for now

 

[Greatsage13th]

Ok. Gyro and Elizha already agree, so I'll just ignore that for now

you know if there aren't any solid proof of such, anyone could create a downgrade crt to remove whatever was applied here right?

 

[Sniper670]

There are solid proof all over in this crt, which is why it wasn't even the point of debate and all we were discussing TD 2 and Aca 5

I won't pursue that any more.

 

[Arceus0x]

nah yemma you better prove your words right here and right now as otherwise the mods will be on greatsage's side in a jiffy

 

[Sniper670]

Sure.

The main multiverse is made up of two things, substance(physical) , and spirit(metaphysical)

Giratina embodies the opposite Of that. Something like a paradox

And this and this was the explanation of what that meant

 

[Greatsage13th]

at face value this seems like NEP type 3 aspect 1 & 4.

Just to clarify does Girantina embodies the opposite on a notional level or isn't?

 

[Sniper670]

1. Illusionary characters are type 1. It actually doesn't exist

2. Yep

 

[Greatsage13th]

1. Illusionary characters are type 1. It actually doesn't exist

2. Yep

well...type 1 and 3 to be exact.

scans of their notional existence or anything like that just for further clarification just so I could agree for nep type 2

 

[Fixxed]

Giratina embodies the concept Nonexistence, he didn't exist at the time, Dialga and Palkia embody the concept of time and space. They didn't exist. Why? Because within Arceus that distinction wasn't there. It mixed, formless, One
It was later that he created them

Let me repeat

are portrayed as existing within a state of single, indivisible wholeness bereft of any separation

Seperation in general does not exist for such characters

It because everything is one, that dont mean that not exist, but they mixed. Like the big bang, in the beginning there are no star and galaxy because everything is one solid matter, so the explanation about star and galaxy is not exist because everything is same

Just same not, not exist

And that's false. Reason why Taiji get type 3 is because of the lack of seperation of any kind.

Which was an example under 3

No, i dont says anything about TD 3. Just explain what is "Taiji". Taiji is onesess before DUALITY

Wuji is a State of formlessness. It's an emptiness without distinctions.

It's not conventional nothingess. It's idealistic. Type

Wuji is limitless, and because it limitless is being nothingness

I mention that so you don't connect the Arceus case with Chinese philosophy

OneNess includes Nondistinction. There's no "you".

Yeah and its just possibly for TD 1 then. Because you and i is just a one system of duality, not every system

Being in a state where "you" or "2" or any distinctions doesn't exist is type 2. Where you're one indivisible being without any kind of seperation is 2

Where you found that?? Is only a system of duality not all system

Cognitive physiology is an example.

Check many of the Transduality characters . Or

And cognitive physiology not even write "type 2" in there

And DT says nonduality is not transduality

https://vsbattles.com/profile-posts/comments/51056/

 

[Sniper670]

Eh

I don't get what you mean. Let me say, Giratina is the concept of nonexistence, other CT and LT embody seperate aspects of existence on physical and metaphysical

These things were all one and the same because the chaos was nondistinct in nature. Everything unified as one thing, meaning it was neither existing

But in actuality, they didn't exist. That binary wasn't there. So existence nor nonexistence didn't exist

 

[Greatsage13th]

just why is Taiwanese philosophy brought up here...

 

[Arceus0x]

just why is Taiwanese philosophy brought up here...

Probably cause like 90% of JRPGs borrow from asian concepts

 

[Fixxed]

Eh

I don't get what you mean. Let me say, Giratina is the concept of nonexistence, other CT and LT embody seperate aspects of existence on physical and metaphysical

These things were all one and the same because the chaos was nondistinct in nature. Everything unified as one thing, meaning it was neither existing

But in actuality, they didn't exist. That binary wasn't there. So existence nor nonexistence didn't exist

Why they didn't exist???

They just one, they just same. Like the big bang i says above

And it blantanly state as the existance

In this heart, everything was one, time, space, every being were a single existence.

 

[Sniper670]

It because everything is one, that dont mean that not exist, but they mixed. Like the big bang, in the beginning there are no star and galaxy because everything is one solid matter, so the explanation about star and galaxy is not exist because everything is same

You're implying space, time and nothingness existed before arceus created them. Because I'm sure they didn't

You do know the concepts came into being once he created them. They didn't exist. They were all mixed and non distinct in his being. Everything was unified as One

Just same not, not exist

Same as above

And cognitive physiology not even write "type 2" in there

And DT says nonduality is not transduality

https://vsbattles.com/profile-posts/comments/51056/

just predating duality is different from existing in a state of Indivisible wholeness, befereft of seperation right? You're misinterpreting what he said.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Probably cause like 90% of JRPGs borrow from asian concepts

i see

 

[Ego]

I've made some changes which will give Arceus full access to Acausality type 5, Transduality Type 2 and Nonexistence Physiology Nature Type 2, Aspect Type 1,2,3 and 5

Check that and update your opinion while we wait for Gyro.

Don't forget resistance to CM 1

Very big

 

[Sniper670]

Why they didn't exist???

Because he existed when there was nothing.

They just one, they just same. Like the big bang i says above

And it blantanly state as the existance

That's textbook definitions of NonDuality from the perspective of taiji. Seperation didn't exist. Everything was mixed.

There was nothing like "time" nor "space". That's something Arceus created after he came into being

 

[Fixxed]

You're implying space, time and nothingness existed before arceus

And your feats literally says :
Time started to spin. Space began to expand.

So time was there but not spin, space was there but not expand

Like i says they only mix together not not exist, mix with arceus him self

You do know the concepts came into being once he created them. They didn't exist. They were all mixed and non distinct in his being. Everything was unified as One

Yeah that only mean everything is one and same

 

[Fixxed]

Because he existed when there was nothing

Where in your feats its stated to be nothing???

That's textbook definitions of NonDuality from the perspective of taiji. Seperation didn't exist. Everything was mixed.

There was nothing like "time" nor "space". That's

Yeah because EVERYTHING IS MIXED and BEING ONE

 

[Sniper670]

And your feats literally says :
Time started to spin. Space began to expand.

Yes. What about it. Time and space came into being after dialga and palkia were born

So time was there but not spin, space was there but not expand

That seperation called "time" that made it different from anything else wasn't there. In Llama, seperation is meaningless.
Until he became aware and the multiverse was created

Yeah that only mean everything is one and same

Yup, that means seperation does not exist because he's NonDual.

He exists in a state of single, indivisible wholeness bereft of any separation

 

[Sniper670]

Where in your feats its stated to be nothing???

Because he was the only thing in existence, before the universe came . At this point, you're trying to say Arceus was existing with time and space and then he created time and space, which let's be honest, won't even make sense to yourself in the grand scheme of things

Yeah because EVERYTHING IS MIXED and BEING ONE

Yes. Seperation doesn't exist. That's what it means. What about it

 

[Fixxed]

Yes. What about it. Time and space came into being after dialga and palkia were born

Yeah where its feats??

even though the feats exist, we have to relate the meaning to other feats, we can't take them literally. because it could mean time
It's not called time because it hasn't rotated and so has space

Like the big bang, a solid object is not called a universe, but after it explodes it is called a universe

That seperation called "time" that made it different from anything else wasn't there. In Llama, seperation is meaningless.
Until he became aware and the multiverse was created

Yeah because everything is same

Yup, that means seperation does not exist because he's NonDual.

He exists in a state of

I've explain it above

Because he was the only thing in existence, before the universe came . At this point, you're trying to say Arceus was existing with time and space and then he created time and space, which let's be honest, won't even make sense to yourself in the grand scheme of things

Yeah the universe is "not exist" because everything was one. Not because the universe is nonexist by default and then exist

The universe just mixed with everything, so there are no universe because there is no difference between everything

Yes. Seperation doesn't exist. That's what it means. What about

You mean duality is a seperation right??? So if we is one and dont have any seperation thats mean the duality is no longer limited us right???
But even seperation is duality, so you just possible for get TD 1
It would like i says above:

Like, you can transcend/unbound every concept, but it doesn't make you have TD 2. Why?? Because that not mention duality, even though by logic it must have TD 2 because it will include concept of fire-water, dark-light, etc

 

[Sniper670]

Yeah where its feats??

Here is it

even though the feats exist, we have to relate the meaning to other feats, we can't take them literally. because it could mean time
It's not called time because it hasn't rotated and so has space

It's nor called time because there's no distinction between time or space, or anything and everything you can think of that can be related to it.

Everything Became one

Yeah the universe is "not exist" because everything was one. Not because the universe is nonexist by default and then exist

Yes. In Taiji, distinctions didn't exist. It was a formless void where everything was just one

Same here

But even seperation is duality, so you just possible for get TD 1
It would like i says above:

No that's Taiji, which is type 3 by default but is given to type 2 because it's not tier

At this point that's what you're arguing against and you're arguing with exactly the thing that was written under type 3. Of which Arceus qualifies

 

[Sniper670]

So if we is one and dont have any seperation thats mean the duality is no longer limited us right???
But even seperation is duality, so you just possible for get TD 1
It would like i says above:

Such characters typically exist as contradictions within the context of their setting, and abide to dialetheic systems of logic, or are portrayed as existing within a state of single, indivisible wholeness bereft of any separation.


Show me the difference between this and Arceus.

 

[Antvasima]

If somebody explains everything that currently needs to be evaluated here in sufficiently thorough, but easy to understand, manners, along with the staff members who have helped out in this thread earlier, I can send them a notification afterwards.

 

[Sniper670]

Thank you. I'll get to that soon

 

[Antvasima]

No problem.

 

[Sniper670]

Nonexistent physiology has been accepted by Elizha and Gyro, so that's out of the way. They're the only Admins who commented on the crt btw

Likewise anything else besides Transduality Type 2, Nonexistence Physiology type 2 and Acausality type 5, because I changed a few things. Which I'll list below.


Executor_N0 blog has been verified and accepted on the wiki as valid for knowing more about the justification for the god tiers. So I'll leave that here: This is under the explanation for Arceus. You can read through the scans. I'm going to talk about Executor_N0 explanation of the The Heart, derived from the scans about nature of Arceus True Form :

Heart
"When there was nothing else in the world, the Heart was in the middle of a swell of chaos. In this heart, everything was one, time, space, every being were a single existence. After the Heart gained awareness, the world was shaped. It's a single heart that exists beyond time and space and Arceus is its direct manifestation. After creation every being has its own heart, but they are still the same being when looking at the highest level."

The meaning of Non-duality :

Non-duality is the recognition that underlying the multiplicity and diversity of experience there is a single, infinite and indivisible reality, whose nature is pure consciousness, from which all objects and selves derive their apparently independent existence

Which fits exactly with Arceus Nature as described earlier.

This fits with Transduality Type 3. TD 2 for characters who're not tier 1A

Such characters typically exist as contradictions within the context of their setting, and abide to dialetheic systems of logic, or are portrayed as existing within a state of single, indivisible wholeness bereft of any separation.

Which also fits with the nature of Arceus as a single indivisible whole.

So I propose the changes here

Transduality Type 2(Due to his True Nature of Non Binary as explained above, existing as a single indivisible entity devoid of seperation which fits Arceus as seen above)

Acausality type 5(Same as above, except in relation to the laws that shape reality, including the laws of cause and effect in the universe).

Nonexistent Physiology Nature type 2, Aspect Type 1, 2, 3 and 5(Same as above, except in relation to Existence and Nonexistence and all the concepts like time, space, spirit, etc)

 

[Fixxed]

Here is it

Its only feats of everything is one

It's nor called time because there's no distinction between time or space, or anything and everything you can think of that can be related to it.

Everything Became one

Yeah everything become one, not not exist

Yes. In Taiji, distinctions didn't exist. It was a formless void where everything was just one

Yes because taiji is onesess. No taiji is not formless void, taiji is onesess

No that's Taiji, which is type 3 by default but is given to type 2 because it's not tier

At this point that's what you're arguing against and you're arguing with exactly the thing that was written under type 3. Of which Arceus qualifies

I already explain about taiji, onesess and everything else