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Staff first need to evaluate it and say if they agree or not
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Honkai Impact 3rd potential upgrade?
- Thread starter Zephyr
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Yeah
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@JustSomeWeirdo @Theglassman12 @Crabwhale @Eficiente @DarkGrath
Would any of you be willing to help out with evaluations here please?
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@Moritzva @DemonGodMitchAubin @Everything12 @Duedate8898 @Planck69
Would any of you be willing to help out here please?
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Just realized I never actually gave my opinion on this thread, but yeah there's a good bit of stuff for the tier 4 imo, and I guess if gamma rays are SoL, and one character easily dodges them and then gets almost blitzed by another, it would bump it into ftl since that's basically anything above SoL and below 10c
So I agree
So I agree
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Could you unlock all the profiles? Since iirc most are locked so it'd be easier if the entire verse got unlocked
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Sorry for the late answer, but I will also help in applying the changes, and I will also put new AP justifications, as the old ones are vague or weak
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I could do so normally, but our wiki is currently in lockdown mode.
Kirkburn of the official Fandom staff just told me that the wiki lockdown is due to a Mediawiki 1.37 system update.
The initial migration attempt failed, so it's in the process of being reverted. It takes a while due to the sheer size of the wiki. It'll be back to normal again soon, and they'll try again once they fix the migration problems.
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I randomly decided to check one of the character profiles and noticed the upgrade to 4B. The scan for the solar system argument does not suggest anything of the sort. And what is "microcosm" in this context?
I also object to the FTL speed. It's based solely on what are allegedly gamma rays, which clearly travel much slower in the only time they've been depicted in animation. I also recall the lightspeed gamma rays being brought up and being struck down before in an earlier CRT, so what about it changed to make it accepted this time?
I also object to the FTL speed. It's based solely on what are allegedly gamma rays, which clearly travel much slower in the only time they've been depicted in animation. I also recall the lightspeed gamma rays being brought up and being struck down before in an earlier CRT, so what about it changed to make it accepted this time?
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Yeah that doesn't really seem FTL.
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Also, can somebody write a list of the exactly worded titles for all of the profile pages that I currently need to lock for this verse (the ones with tier 1 ratings)?
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It's an animation, we've seen light speed characters in other anime move at speeds visible to us. And it's not like we've not seen other relativistic speeds, such as Otto shooting out Oath of Judah chains at Welt despite being halfway into a black hole (from which light cannot escape) which would mean that the chains were already within the gravitational pull of the black hole, etc. Though I'm mostly impartial.
As for the Solar System stuff, ask Zeph, the scans should be there but it's likely that he missed a few of them
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On the FTL stuff, I don't think showing an animation, which is made so viewers can see what's happening is good evidence that gamma rays aren't the actual speed they should be, especially when, as Avenger said, there's already other feats near that level because of stuff firing out of black holes when light couldn't escape them, etc
As for the 4-B stuff, Microcosm in the VN was referring to a solar system, hence it being used along with the solar system level black hole calc to argue for 4-B, they just didn't straight up say the words solar system in that VN scene, so even if you dislike the scan there's still the calc, although I guess you could also just wait for Zephyr to get more stuff from the VN if that's absolutely necessary, although I feel it might not be since the scene there is not the only thing that got them there
As for the 4-B stuff, Microcosm in the VN was referring to a solar system, hence it being used along with the solar system level black hole calc to argue for 4-B, they just didn't straight up say the words solar system in that VN scene, so even if you dislike the scan there's still the calc, although I guess you could also just wait for Zephyr to get more stuff from the VN if that's absolutely necessary
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When did Otto do that? And escaping black holes in fiction is rarely intended to be interpreted as the character being faster than light.
I'm not saying that the animation alone is the end all be all. I'm saying that there isn't enough evidence to suggest that the gamma rays are actually the speed of light.
More scans and more context are definitely necessary for the solar system stuff. The star stuff alone is already questionable.
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That's a scientifically accurate fact about black holes, and basically everytime black holes are mentioned they go on some tangent about the science behind them, so its a fair assumption, and I'm fairly sure it was mentioned in universe too, idk where though
The fact that that's the speed of a gamma ray because gamma rays are just super high energy super low wavelength electromagnetic radiation that goes at the speed of light?
There's not even really star stuff in the OP there but what star stuff on this thread is questionable then? And is there somehow issues with the supernova, or solar mass stuff, or the calc'd black hole which is also solar system level anyway?
In any case since you wanted evidence, I assume, that the microcosm being reffered to was a solar system, here's Otto's dialogue from the start of the VN where he explains to Bianka and Rita where they're going
Their mission was to explore the Ether anchor point, in a small bubble world which was a copy of the solar system, even down to containing a copy of the earth. This world they then spend the novel inside, in the sea of quanta, is the microcosm being reffered to in the other scans, so it's pretty clearly solar system level, as it, well, is a solar system.
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Scientifically accurate? If so, then I'll concede on this point.
I was going to argue that they aren't necessarily that quick just because they're called gamma rays, but then I checked KMB's profile, which says that the battlesuit indeed fires out "high speed gamma particles".
Knight Moonbeam/Dorm Chibi
Click anywhere on the headers to expand or collapse sections.
honkaiimpact3.fandom.com
It's a wiki, yes, but it's a reliable and accurate one in my experience. I don't actually have KMB myself to check in-game, but I'll give the wiki the benefit of the doubt.
Very well. I concede on this (unless I later find anti-FTL speed feats, which I'm fairly certain exist) because Mihoyo clearly did at least a basic amount of research on these particles, which are probably not somehow going to be slower than actual gamma particles just because they've been weaponized in a battlesuit.
Just one question. I'm not an expert on electromagnetic radiation, and a few searches said that gamma rays travel at lightspeed in a vacuum. What about when they aren't in one, such as the feat given?
Yes. Welt's "supernova" was just a bluff. And it'd have vaporized the Earth, which is obviously the opposite of what he wanted.
Compressing his core to 1.4 solar masses doesn't necessarily mean that he's star level. It just means that his gravity control is that strong, not all of him in general. He also never attempts to use this much power on anything else, certainly not Sirin herself, his main target.
What makes black holes automatically solar system level?
"Microcosm" refers to the bubble universe that contains a solar system? Essentially, a solar-system sized miniature universe?
Don't get me wrong; I love this series and certainly want it to be powerful, but not without a lot of strong evidence.
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Yeah idk what to link for it but the general reason is that inside the event horizon of a black hole, space is curved to the point that all paths that light can take to exit the event horizon point back inside the event horizon, making it impossible for anything to leave it regardless of speed as SoL is the irl cap for speed as far as we know it, this is related to why black holes are, well, black, as color comes from light bouncing off an object, however light can't actually do that in a black hole as it is simply absorbed
I believe it said in a vacuum because that's actually the scientific measure of the speed of light (C). It's weird but the actual value we have for the speed of light is the speed it travels in a vacuum both ways, because it's completely impossible to measure otherwise, so anytime scientists say something is the speed of light in a vacuum, it typically means C is the speed
Saying it was a bluff doesn't really work, because the important part isn't whether or not he'd do it, it's the fact he knew it had a 1% chance to kill her, which is why he went with the other plan to begin with. He bluffed to Sirin that he would detonate, but that's only because he already knew that detonating wouldn't really help according to the scene in the manga, he explictly says it having a 1% chance at working is why he came up with the new plan. So it's likely that at first he was willing to do it, but then realized it wouldn't do anything and that's why he switched after realizing that, as he said.
Him being willing or unwilling to do it doesn't change the fact he could and (even if you think he couldn't and was lying about it for some reason) knew Sirin wouldn't die from it hence the new plan, and that's the part needed for the scaling, the fact it wouldn't work on her
As for the compressing his core thing yeah it means his gravity control is that level while he's pretty significantly weakened, the same gravity control he does in fact attempt to use on Sirin and in other fights when he's serious, just because they don't explicitly mention the solar masses part again doesn't mean we should assume that while serious, he doesn't use his powers to that extent.
So he can use his energy
Nothing, however this black hole in specific was calculated at that level using GBE, black holes vary in power but on average they're usually pretty high up in power because of how absurdly massive they are. For reference, black hole mass is typically measured in terms of how many suns it weighs.
In this case yeah, the microcosm was the world they were went into, which was a solar system replica mini universe thing they were sent to check out met Shakespeare and co in, etc, which is what the energy stuff in the other scan was referring to.
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He must have been referring to Sirin being able to catch on to what he was planning and grabbing his core before it could (pretend to) detonate, which is what actually happened. Not referring to her literally tanking a supernova 99/100 times. And say she actually did die that one time. It'd obviously mean that she can't tank a supernova. What does this ratio even mean? Either a character can tank x attack or they can't. Durability isn't a roll of dice.
We should also keep in mind that as with any omnidirectional explosion, any character caught in it would only be receiving a fraction of the total power.
When does he use it on Sirin? And why would the outputs of his gravity manipulation scale to everything else he does?
Having a lot of mass is nice, but this doesn't mean that its energy is the same as a star. Mass is vastly below energy according to E=MC^2.
So the VN says that the 1st and 2nd Herrschers, Welt and Sirin, have Honkai energy comparable to the amount of energy needed to build a solar-system sized bubble universe. But just having this much energy doesn't automatically translate to them being able to output this much offensively. For example, one of the endbringers from Worm has a mass of a galaxy. But this doesn't make it galaxy tier. Even if we take Welt's core detonation at face value, a supernova is vastly, vastly below solar system.
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It means that there was a much higher chance than not of it not killing her. He's not 100% certain it wouldn't, just 99% sure, which is enough for him to realize it's not a good plan to go with. The interpretation of "He must have meant that 99% of the time she'd catch onto the plan" is really stretching it, his wording is "even if I were to blow up my Herrscher core, our chances of beating her would be only 1%"
This isn't "if I were going to pretend to blow up my core she'd only believe it 1% of the time" it's talking about a scenario in which he did blow up the core, and saying that had a low chance at working. You're correct in saying durability isn't a roll of a dice, but no one makes strategies using guarantees, it's practically guaranteed that she'd survive said explosion, there's a super small chance that some miracle could happen and she somehow dies from it, but it's not worth betting on that, and so he decides not to do it, that's the very very blatant series of events, there's not really room for interpretation. He's basically saying, without using guarantees "she'd survive the explosion".
In fact we likely know what that 1% chance was, it was if he manages to cause her core to detonate too, he specifically says that he was trying to bring her core to the table, detonating both of them, to hope she didn't survive, because otherwise she would have in his eyes.
All in all, no, there is very little supporting the theory that he meant she was going to catch on, and the actual text and events of the story goes against that being what he meant, so Sirin being able to survive Welt going supernova is the more likely, and outright stated in the text, conclusion to draw from this
Because it's all honkai energy very explicitly even, all his abilities are using his high amounts of honkai energy and outputting it, but also because it just scales to people who he also scales to without using it, i.e Sirin
As for when he uses his gravity manipulation oh, I don't know, when he uses the black hole on her on the moon, when he uses the black hole on her before Otto steps in, etc, unless you for some reason think the star of Eden's power is not only separate from, but weaker than his own gravity manipulation (it's not, as we see in the flashback that he just uses the Star of Eden for his general gravity manipulation when he uses it for Rational Suspense, it's not a separate thing from his normal manipulation of gravity in fact it's where they come from, so theres less than 0 reason to assume the Zeroth power, the strongest one, is weaker than random other applications of his gravity powers)
I'm not quite sure you understand how the calculations for these sort of things work. Once you have obtained the mass you plug it into the equation for GBE (gravitational binding energy) and doing that for this black hole's mass ended up at solar system level, this is sorta just how black hole stuff works, when you plug a really high mass into GBE you get a really high number, sorta just the way physics goes.
It's a really unfounded assumption to say that someone is incapable of using their energy for no reason, but there's actually proof this is blatantly false.
Michaelangelo says that by quantifying the energy used by the Ether Anchor to make the solar system you would "get a similar amount to the energy levels the First Herrscher or 2nd Herrscher possessed." Now people aren't going around with DBZ scouters here and reading people's powerlevels when they do nothing, the measurements of HW or honkai energy is obtained by observing and measuring the output of something.
This is supported by Schrodinger's line that follows immediately after that line, where she explictly says that "in terms of scale the Honkai energy that later herrschers are able to manipulate is far higher". Take note of the fact she says manipulate, this coincides nicely with the fact that well, they can only measure the energy of these people by seeing the energy they output, the energy they manipulate.
So no, I see very little reason to assume they can't manipulate and output their own energy, especially when doing so is necessary for this reading of their energy to even exist to be compared to
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How would he know what she's capable of withstanding? At that point, he'd only fought her much weaker, 1-core self on Earth. He hadn’t encountered her on the moon yet.
The 1.4 solar mass was treated as a very special, unique situation. He doesn't necessarily always throw out that much gravity.
Fair, but I mean to argue that they cannot necessarily output solar system amounts of power with their attacks. Having reserves of that quantity is one thing. Using all of it in one go is quite another. Like I said, even releasing all of his energy would only result in a supernova.
Vsbattles's Supernova article does say that certain supernovae can reach solar system level, but this only strengthens my point. To actually output that much energy, he needs to self-destruct and release all his energy in one go. This means that every little attack he normally uses can't be anywhere near as powerful. Otherwise, he'd never even need to consider self-destructing if a random black hole or laser he can easily use instead were just as powerful.
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Yes, precisely. He's extrapolating based on how strong he thought the one on earth was, and assuming she's gotten some vague amount stronger, and because of that he gives his thoughts, he didn't think she'd be as strong as she was according to him during the fight, so he actually underestimated her
No, no it wasn't. It was him saying he could do that and it'd let him go supernova, it wasn't like "if I use all my effort I can barely manage to do this", it wasn't implied to be anything spectacular, so at the least when he's seriously trying to kill someone who is stronger than him, yes, he should be throwing out at least that much gravity, there's nothing to suggest otherwise, and it wouldn't be very reasonable for the herrscher of reason to not use this level of gravity, with the strongest gravity based attacks he has, against someone he needs to kill to save humanity.
As I said above, to even understand that the first and second herrschers had and can use that much energy, they had to have read that much energy being output from them, which is a very, very clear indicator that they can output that with their attacks.
This isn't correct though, he doesn't need to release all his energy to go supernova or have a solar system level feat. Going supernova is him compressing his core specifically so it can go supernova, he still has solar system level stuff sith the black holes, etc. The supernova is just a supporting thing, not some cap that shows they can't be that level (especially when it probably wouldn't work on Sirin according to Welt, and a full power 1st herrscher should have been closer to her level, but he was weakened at this point according to Einstein.) It doesn't strengthen your point because you're incorrect in this odd assumption.
To repeat one more time, Welt has a 4-B calculation for his black hole which he used on Sirin, and additionally, the first a second herrschers, which can manipulate and have the lowest amount of energy, have energy on par with the energy used to create a solar system. In order to get these readings, this means that the first and second herrschers had to output this energy in the first place for it to be observed. They never blew themselves up, so they can very clearly also do it without going supernova unlike what you tried to imply. There is simply no argument to be made implying they can't output that energy when everything shows they can.
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Why? Their latent Honkai energy can't be measured without it actually being used?
You still haven’t addressed each of their regular attacks being solar system level when only his core detonation can reach this much.
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Because as I said, people don't walk around with scouters and read the powerlevel of someone without them doing anything. Basically every single reading ever gotten in the verse that we've seen, has been because they're measuring the output of something, the energy it emits, etc. This again, is consistent with the fact that them using said amount of energy is what Schrodinger says in the very next line. Schrodinger and Michaelangelo don't say they have "latent energy" on that level they can't use, no, they talk about being able to manipulate it, which means they can indeed use it, this is pretty cut and dry
I did, I said this is just blatantly incorrect, there's not much to address outside of saying "no, this is wrong"
The black hole calc that isn't him blowing up his core is solar system level. The fact he, via the quotes directly from the text, has that energy and Schrodinger talks about manipulating it, also is pretty clear indication of solar system level being applicable. Especially when combined with the fact that we see him manipulate said energy while weakened and output a solar system level attack (the repeatedly mentioned calc), that isn't a supernova, etc.
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Not always. The Selene battleship was known to be capable of destroying an entire city before it had done anything other than fly.
The black hole may be. What about his non black hole attacks, though, like the beams he fires that were unable to harm Sirin? They're demonstrably weaker than solar system tier.
He also bothered to create an armoured hand to protect himself from a nuke that must be many orders of magnitude below his tier.
Benares was able to survive a hit from him long enough to fly to the moon. Judgement-class is well below Herrschers.
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