Honkai Impact 3rd potential upgrade?

[Zephyr]

Currently, The Honkai Impact 3rd verse is at best high 6-A

I think it should be possible to upgrade Honkai Impact 3rd to 4-C High 4-C and 4-B because of the following reasons :

Welt going supernova had a 1% chance of besting Sirin.
You could argue that it wouldn't be an actual supernova, because Welt wants to save the Earth, not destroy it. But he knew that his core would not actually detonate.

Welt could compress his core under 1.4 solar masses. This is pretty self explanatory.

There are many characters who scale to Sirin and Welt.

In the Durandal Visual Novel, It is stated that the 1st and 2nd Herrschers have enough energy to create a solar system, with later Herrschers being able to manipulate more energy.
This is very consistent with Welt Joyce's Quasi Black Hole being calculated at Solar System level. Now I will explain why these Quasi Black Holes do not swallow the Earth.
First of all, Welt says that he could stop his own Black Hole from crushing himself, meaning that these characters can atleast reduce the effects of their Quasi Black Holes on objects not inside of the Black hole. These characters can also manipulate gravity, further explaining this.

I also think that we should upgrade them to FTL.
In the manga Moon Shadow, Fu Hua and the partially awakened Herrscher of The Void reacts to gamma beams, which go at the speed of light.
Fu Hua dodges these beams very casually, and the Herrscher of The Void is, again, partially awakened.
There are many characters that scale to this.
Them being able to talk can be explained with this.

 

[Avengershows]

Agree, there's also multiple canon-weapon descriptions outright stating star levels of power.

a Herrscher also casually destroyed the Moon with no problems which in comparison to the stuff above is meh, but yeah.

And there's this, a portal opening device.

 

[Ratherlarge]

So which characters would this scale to?

 

[Paul_Frank]

Whoever is currently scaled to high 6-A I believe, so like, the herrscher level people and up

 

[Ratherlarge]

So pretty much every character worth mentioning. Wonder why no one brought this up before.

 

[Confluctor]

You should have probably get this calced.

 

[Zephyr]

Does anybody have any issues with this,or things they would like to talk about relating to this in general?

 

[Ratherlarge]

I'm not really sure if Welt compressing his core beyond it's limits should be scaled to other characters just because they are Herrscher's. And I might be wrong, but isn't this hax based? Both Welt and Sirin have powers which link with the black hole so they might have a better affinity for it than others. Again I might be completely wrong about this.

 

[Zephyr]

I'm not really sure if Welt compressing his core beyond it's limits should be scaled to other characters just because they are Herrscher's. And I might be wrong, but isn't this hax based? Both Welt and Sirin have powers which link with the black hole so they might have a better affinity for it than others. Again I might be completely wrong about this.

There are characters that can beat Welt, or beat Sirin with 1 core who beat Welt etc.
Herrschers can scale to this because of the statement with the microcosm, saying that later herrschers can manipulate far more Honkai Energy.
Can you explain the 2nd part of your message? I am having trouble understanding that part.

 

[Ratherlarge]

There are characters that can beat Welt, or beat Sirin with 1 core who beat Welt etc.
Herrschers can scale to this because of the statement with the microcosm, saying that later herrschers can manipulate far more Honkai Energy.
Can you explain the 2nd part of your message? I am having trouble understanding that part.

The 2nd part was referring to how Welt and Sirin have abilities which can work specifically with black holes. Welt has the gravity powers and Sirin has the Space/time powers. This means they have a better affinity against it than other characters without those powers.

That is unless other character's without those abilities can perform the same feats.

 

[Avengershows]

So pretty much every character worth mentioning. Wonder why no one brought this up before.

I was going to a while ago but I was advised to wait for the entire verse to be actually slapped onto the wiki so lol

 

[Zephyr]

The 2nd part was referring to how Welt and Sirin have abilities which can work specifically with black holes. Welt has the gravity powers and Sirin has the Space/time powers. This means they have a better affinity against it than other characters without those powers.

That is unless other character's without those abilities can perform the same feats.

Yeah, they do have those powers.
I was trying to explain why their quasi black holes don't just swallow The Earth.
Unless you are reffering to something else?

 

[Birgi126]

Now I will explain why these Quasi Black Holes do not swallow the Earth.
First of all, Welt says that he could stop his own Black Hole from crushing himself, meaning that these characters can atleast reduce the effects of their Quasi Black Holes on objects not inside of the Black hole. These characters can also manipulate gravity, further explaining this.

This could work, however Previous Era's Herrscher of Earth/Stars contradicts it. According to ELF manga, Previous Era Herrscher of Earths Blackhole took several days to destroy Mu contient (cannot link the chapter, but it is ELF Manga chapter 2, can be found in manga.dex). Welt is using Star of Eden, which is made from Herrscher of Earths core, and according to translations provided here Zeorth Power of God Keys are = Herrschers which the core comes from. So since a Herrscher who was trying to bring as much as destruction as possible couldn't achieve even a contiental feat instantly, it would be contradictory to assume Blackholes in Star of Eden are Solar System level or anything similar, as this is a massive contradictions them being real black holes.
Rest of the stuff I am neutral about.

 

[Zephyr]

This could work, however Previous Era's Herrscher of Earth/Stars contradicts it. According to ELF manga, Previous Era Herrscher of Earths Blackhole took several days to destroy Mu contient (cannot link the chapter, but it is ELF Manga chapter 2, can be found in manga.dex). Welt is using Star of Eden, which is made from Herrscher of Earths core, and according to translations provided here Zeorth Power of God Keys are = Herrschers which the core comes from. So since a Herrscher who was trying to bring as much as destruction as possible couldn't achieve even a contiental feat instantly, it would be contradictory to assume Blackholes in Star of Eden are Solar System level or anything similar, as this is a massive contradictions them being real black holes.
Rest of the stuff I am neutral about.

I do not remember there being anything said about the 9th taking several days to destroy the Mu continent.
In fact, I am almost sure this was never said.

 

[Zephyr]

I do not remember there being anything said about the 9th taking several days to destroy the Mu continent.
In fact, I am almost sure this was never said.

Perhaps you are confusing the Herrscher of Earth with the Herrscher of Fire?

 

[Birgi126]

I do not remember there being anything said about the 9th taking several days to destroy the Mu continent.
In fact, I am almost sure this was never said.

No, it is said in the ELF manga. In none of the other times a timeframe is mentioned, but in ELF manga it is said that after 9th herrscher launched its Black Hole attack, Humans and ELFs found themselves facing their final days. EINSTEIN of Previous Era even had time to open a portal to sea of quanta.
I just cannot download, or link the specific scan for some reason, but you can find it if you check yourself. It is in ELF manga chapter 2.

 

[Birgi126]

 

[Zephyr]

Ah, I see.
However, we can't know if this attack was at full power or not. We don't know a lot of things about how this went down.

 

[Birgi126]

Ah, I see.
However, we can't know if this attack was at full power or not. We don't know a lot of things about how this went down.

There is no reason to assume it was not. Even purely from a visual percipective, this is a black hole that was bigger than one’s Star of Eden creates, and there is no reason for the Herrscher to hold back.
Also even if this attack was from a somehow weakened HoEarth, it was still a black hole, and a black hole of that size would have swalloved Earth in matter of seconds, never mind the Contient.
Thus, it is just illogical to think Star of Eden’s Black Hole’s are real Black Hole’s while this is not.

 

[Zephyr]

There is no reason to assume it was not. Even purely from a visual percipective, this is a black hole that was bigger than one’s Star of Eden creates, and there is no reason for the Herrscher to hold back.
Also even if this attack was from a somehow weakened HoEarth, it was still a black hole, and a black hole of that size would have swalloved Earth in matter of seconds, never mind the Contient.
Thus, it is just illogical to think Star of Eden’s Black Hole’s are real Black Hole’s while this is not.

The black holes created by Welt might be more condensed.
Also, in-game it is said that the black hole was not a full one, but a pseudo one.
pseudo
Welt's blackholes also share features with real black holes.
Not only that, but we already know that Welt is capable of compressing things under 1.4 solar masses while severely weakened.

 

[Ratherlarge]

Yeah, they do have those powers.
I was trying to explain why their quasi black holes don't just swallow The Earth.
Unless you are reffering to something else?

Basically what I'm saying is Welt and Sirin having the ability to resist/affect the black hole doesn't necessarily mean other characters are able to do that as well since they don't have the same abilities.

If Sirin was replaced by another Herrscher I'm not sure they would survive the black hole since they don't have void powers.

 

[Zephyr]

Basically what I'm saying is Welt and Sirin having the ability to resist/affect the black hole doesn't necessarily mean other characters are able to do that as well since they don't have the same abilities.

If Sirin was replaced by another Herrscher I'm not sure they would survive the black hole since they don't have void powers.

I see now. However, a partially awakened Sirin did survive being halfway into Welt's black hole for some time without a scratch, while she was not using her powers.
Not only that, but was she drained of Honkai Energy and very exhausted.
I am not sure about if they can survive being in it for a longer period of time, but they can definitely survive for atleast a little while.

 

[Avengershows]

This could work, however Previous Era's Herrscher of Earth/Stars contradicts it. According to ELF manga, Previous Era Herrscher of Earths Blackhole took several days to destroy Mu contient (cannot link the chapter, but it is ELF Manga chapter 2, can be found in manga.dex). Welt is using Star of Eden, which is made from Herrscher of Earths core, and according to translations provided here Zeorth Power of God Keys are = Herrschers which the core comes from. So since a Herrscher who was trying to bring as much as destruction as possible couldn't achieve even a contiental feat instantly, it would be contradictory to assume Blackholes in Star of Eden are Solar System level or anything similar, as this is a massive contradictions them being real black holes.

Aren't you forgetting that even CE which is far less developped had AOE Anti-Gravity technology? They could've resisted the effects of it the entire time, and esp given how they're saying "the destruction was inevitable."
Also, that translation isn't accurate whatsoever.
The og chinese text says "However, the freedom of the ELFs did not last. The following year, the continent of Mu was attacked by a Black Hole created by the 9th Herrscher. ELFs were also going to be devoured by the disaster along with humans."
Nothing mentioning final days.

 

[Zephyr]

Aren't you forgetting that even CE which is far less developped had AOE Anti-Gravity technology? They could've resisted the effects of it the entire time, and esp given how they're saying "the destruction was inevitable."
Also, that translation isn't accurate whatsoever.
The og chinese text says "However, the freedom of the ELFs did not last. The following year, the continent of Mu was attacked by a Black Hole created by the 9th Herrscher. ELFs were also going to be devoured by the disaster along with humans."
Nothing mentioning final days.

Interesting

 

[Birgi126]

Also, in-game it is said that the black hole was not a full one, but a pseudo one.

Star of Eden’s Blackholes are also called “Pseudo-Black Hole”, so if you use that arguement your scaling for it falls too

Not only that, but we already know that Welt is capable of compressing things under 1.4 solar masses while severely weakened.

I never argue’d against that, in fact I do think that can be used as a feat in on itself, my counters are simply against Black Hole’s

Aren't you forgetting that even CE which is far less developped had AOE Anti-Gravity technology? They could've resisted the effects of it the entire time, and esp given how they're saying "the destruction was inevitable."

Could be, but burden of proof on proving that it took time because of Anti-Gravity Technology would fall on you

Also, that translation isn't accurate whatsoever.
The og chinese text says "However, the freedom of the ELFs did not last. The following year, the continent of Mu was attacked by a Black Hole created by the 9th Herrscher. ELFs were also going to be devoured by the disaster along with humans."
Nothing mentioning final days.

Whydoesthesetranslationsconstantlysuck
Even than, we know Black Hole took time to swallow Mu, because EINSTEIN had enough time to open a portal to Sea of Quanta. Even the fact that the Black Hole didn’t instantly swallow Earth and just a Contient contradicts it being a real Black Hole.

 

[Zephyr]

Star of Eden’s Blackholes are also called “Pseudo-Black Hole”, so if you use that arguement your scaling for it falls too

Do you have when it was called a pseudo black hole? I can only remember it being called quasi, which isnt the same thing as pseudo.

 

[Avengershows]

Even than, we know Black Hole took time to swallow Mu, because EINSTEIN had enough time to open a portal to Sea of Quanta. Even the fact that the Black Hole didn’t instantly swallow Earth and just a Contient contradicts it being a real Black Hole.

We don't know how far away the Black Hole was nor can we know the details of what it was like, neither how they fought against it. Also we know that dr. Einstein did use Spatial Distortion technology, it literally says it in the next page.
"Dr. EINSTEIN started the Sea of Quanta, along with an enormous spatial distriortion. Both the places where ELFs lived and the Human Cities became one of the many floating Bubble Universes in the Sea of Quanta."

 

[Birgi126]

Do you have when it was called a pseudo black hole? I can only remember it being called quasi, which isnt the same thing as pseudo.

Oh yeah mixed up, it says Quasi not Psedo, my bad on that. But the point doesn’t change, Quasi just means “apparently but not really; seemingly.”, so that would still debunk it being a real black hole

 

[Birgi126]

We don't know how far away the Black Hole was nor can we know the details of what it was like, neither how they fought against it. Also we know that dr. Einstein did use Spatial Distortion technology, it literally says it in the next page.
"Dr. EINSTEIN started the Sea of Quanta, along with an enormous spatial distriortion. Both the places where ELFs lived and the Human Cities became one of the many floating Bubble Universes in the Sea of Quanta."

We know Einstein used it to send Mu to Sea of Quanta, not to defend against it or anything like that, as it isn’t mentioned.
Also yes we cannot know the distance, would be ridiclous to assume it was fired to like Outer Space though.

 

[Avengershows]

We know Einstein used it to send Mu to Sea of Quanta, not to defend against it or anything like that, as it isn’t mentioned.

Nope, that's not what it says. It just says the the opening of the Sea of Quanta was done alongside the activation of an enormous spatial distortion. And a spatial distortion happening would already be a counter force to a black hole due to black holes pulling things into themselves via the same principle, distorting space, aka what gravity is.

 

[Avengershows]

Oh yeah mixed up, it says Quasi not Psedo, my bad on that. But the point doesn’t change, Quasi just means “apparently but not really; seemingly.”, so that would still debunk it being a real black hole

Name fallacy

 

[Birgi126]

Name fallacy

...I am not the one who initially brough up the name arguement, it was Zephyr, as he said 9th Herrschers Black Hole wasn’t a real black hole because it was called a Pseudo-Black Hole. I am just stating that by that logic, Star of Eden also doesn’t create real Black Hole’s.

 

[Birgi126]

Nope, that's not what it says. It just says the the opening of the Sea of Quanta was done alongside the activation of an enormous spatial distortion. And a spatial distortion happening would already be a counter force to a black hole due to black holes pulling things into themselves via the same principle, distorting space, aka what gravity is.

Fair enough, I guess I will concede than.

 

[Avengershows]

...I am not the one who initially brough up the name arguement, it was Zephyr, as he said 9th Herrschers Black Hole wasn’t a real black hole because it was called a Pseudo-Black Hole. I am just stating that by that logic, Star of Eden also doesn’t create real Black Hole’s.

Yeah yeah I know, I was just saying since u were the most recent comment by the time I replied

 

[Zephyr]

...I am not the one who initially brough up the name arguement, it was Zephyr, as he said 9th Herrschers Black Hole wasn’t a real black hole because it was called a Pseudo-Black Hole. I am just stating that by that logic, Star of Eden also doesn’t create real Black Hole’s.

Fair.
However, I don't see why we use the 9th Herrscher for this argument.
We lack much information on how the whole thing went down.
However, we do know how Welt's and Welt Joyce's situation went down.
Not only that, but Welt Joyce's black hole was basically confirmed to be a black hole.
And, again, Welt could already crush objects under 1.4 solar masses while having over 50% of his power drained. This is also when he had only 47% of his Herrscher Power.
Welt Joyce's black holes are pretty much as strong as real black holes, and Welt's also seem to be as strong as real ones. It even has time dilation. Because of the reasons I stated above, “Quasi” might come from it having other properties than an actual black hole. For example, I don't think black holes have higher dimensional energy, or are that small, etc.

 

[Zephyr]

I have added things about speed to the original post.

 

[Ratherlarge]

I have added things about speed to the original post.

Regarding speed, is there any other feats suggesting FTL speeds?

 

[Enryu_The_Red_Tower]

So, if the 4-B, High 4-C Tiers and FTL be accepted, how the scaling for characters will be and which of them will scales? I know that at least False God Otto, Herrscher of Flamescion Kiana and Palatinus Equinox Durandal are at least 2x stronger than Welt Joyce's Black Hole calc, but I'm not sure how we scale characters like Welt Yang (without Star of Eden), First Appearance Sirin and characters comparable to the 50% of power of Pre-Four Gems Sirin will scale or remain 6-B

Regarding speed, is there any other feats suggesting FTL speeds?

Fu Hua dodging the gamma beans is in fact FTL

Fu Hua dodging "Gamma beams"

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Avengershows]

You should have probably get this calced.

What needs to be calced specifically?

 

[Confluctor]

Because you need to find the exact value of where it will land. It could be higher than what you are suggesting, or lower.